In orchestras tge have both rotary and piston but they are foward facing valves

When you press the fourth valve, it sends the air column through the extra tubing as well. So, the extra lengths of tubing do not get used until you press the fourth valve. This is why the valve is off to the side rather then in line with the other three valves.

Matt S. Ask a plumber!

I get the question, it's more like when you press a normal valve, it redirects through that one tube, but when you add compensating, it redirects air both through the extra tubing to get to the other key, along with sending it through the lower part of the normal valve being pressed which adds more tubing. It's basically a more complicated version of a double horn. In a double horn, air goes from the lead pipe through a rotary thumb valve, which adds the tubing of an f or b flat horn, then directs it to the main valve block, either going through the set of slides for f or b flat tuning, and then going off to the bell tail. A compensating horn (or other instrument) would go from the leadpipe to the valve block immediately, once passing through, it will pass the compensating valve, which will either send it straight through to the bell tail, or send it through piping to extend the open key. But what is interesting is that the compensating valve also intersects the main valve block slides, so when you press it, it will divert the air going through each slide in the valve block adding the extra bit of tubing for each of the three slides.

this is why you don't see a tuba player without a bath tub

@@cdgonepotatoes4219 Im a tuba without a bath Tub 🥲

Yes; I've done some videos on some I believe.

probably orchestras

I've never posted on that website?

Oh, no; you HAVE posted on Trumpet Herald. You have fans there. I was merely suggesting that we would enjoy hearing more from you there. Warm regards, Grits.

Rotary valve compensating systems exist. They are just rare.

Inline fourth valves are never compensating, from what I’ve seen, but side mounted fourth valves can be either compensating or non compensating

I think Getzen made them.

So did Conn. I had one. They're fine if you play on the B♭ side practically all the time (in other words if you're a "first" or "third" player), not so much if you play on the F side more often than not. I actually altered the thumb trigger on mine so it stood in B♭ and pressing the trigger flipped it to F -- similar to a conventional 4th valve on other compensating brass instruments. (This only required re-stringing it.) A full double, on the other hand, is well-suited for both purposes, if heavier. It's also easier to tune when the ambient conditions change because each slide is independent of all the others.

Were the compensating horns lighter and easier to carry than the normal double horns?

Less tubing, so not only lighter, but cheaper.

Makes you wonder why ALL double horns aren't compensating.

Makes you wonder why ALL compensating horns aren't double.

Stuffiness is why. Passing the air through the valve section twice, and all the bends in the slides, increases resistance a great deal. You get much more even resistance under all valve combinations if the two sets of slides are completely independent, and the air only passes through the valve section once.

Hi Jesse, the concept is similar to a double french horn. Normally air goes through the valve section once, but when you press the fourth valve, the airflow is redirected through valve section again, but following a different pathway. This second pathway has the extra tuning slides connected on to it. There's no additional linkages or extra mechanisms. The first three valves are extra long, and have extra pathways through them to handle the two different airstreams.

ah so it just u-turns the pipe back through the valves, and then exits out the "front" of the block? that is a lot more elegant a way of doing it than i was expecting.

+Paul G. Yes - fourth valve does the same thing as the F trigger on a trombone.

Yes, but when you use the trigger, you "compensate" by lengthening your slide positions to stay in tune. It's why there's no 7th position when using the trigger (thus no low B♮ without a second trigger or putting your trigger in E). It's a much simpler system both mechanically and in terms of airflow. This is why it remains popular and prevalent even though it has its downsides as well (slower, more tiring to play, and difficult to slur).

+txsphere The double french horn doesn't use compensating valves. It has two sets of tuning slides for valve, one for each 'side' of the horn.

+Trent Hamilton it's actually a similar system... Instead of having lenght of tubing added like on youre bass it's another slide but the result is the same there is a different lengh of slide for the two pitches of the intrument. On some modern triple horns (F,Bb,F an octave above) there are some compensating valves on one slite to play some notes, i don't really know how this work but I know that my horn teacher have this feature on his horn. Sincerly, a French frech horn player

A regular double horn has two "sides"--the F side and the Bb side. On the F side the valves direct air through the front set of valve slides (or whatever you call the bits of tubing that are added when the valve is depressed). When you activate the thumb valve to switch to the Bb side, the air is directed through a shorter set of tubing (thus reducing the total length of the instrument), and it uses the back (smaller) set of valve slides. Thus you have two separate, independent sets of valve slides. In a compensating horn, the basic length of the horn is the Bb side. With the thumb valve depressed, the length of the horn pitches it in Bb, and the valves direct the air through the front set of valve slides. (This is why the front valve slides are smaller on the compensating horn--their length is correct for Bb, not F.) When the thumb valve is released to pitch the horn in F, a length of tubing is added to lower the pitch by a perfect 4th, and now the air is directed through BOTH the front and back valve slides. So the valve slides are NOT independent. They are used together to lower the pitch the correct amount for the horn pitched in F. (Thus the front valve slides on the compensating horn are the same length as the back (Bb side) valve slides on a regular double horn, and the front and back slides together are the same length as just the front slides on a regular double horn.) Sorry, I don't know how a triple horn works.

I haven't seen one. All euphoniums with 4 valves inline are all non-compensating, as far as I've seen.

check how many sets of tuning slides it has, if it has more than one, its a compensating one

I'm very late, but Wessex has a euphonium with a fourth in-line compensating valve.

+frenchhornist203 No. The fourth valve on a single french horn is simply an additional valve. The valve on a double horn swaps to a different 'side' of the instrument which is a different type of compensating system. It results in more overall tubing and therefore more weight, but has less overall resistance than the compensating mechanism I discuss in this video.

The third valve tuning slide leads back into the first valve (via a different set of ports to the initial airflow), and the air passes through extra 1st and 2nd valve tuning slides before exiting the valve block on the 3rd valve.

agogobell28 Unfortunately not. It's a Chinese copy of a Kanstul, I suspect.

Try both and see which one you prefer.

I would personally get a compensating. The extra valves make it hard to be mobile in the lower register. You can play a bit lower though, but for most pieces, a pedal A, or pedal Bb should be just fine.

60darklord currently I only play on a 3 valve

+Frozengames the pedal tones below e1 can be produced, but the tone quality isn't the same as using a four valve model. I play down to D1 and Eb1 on my marching sousaphone, and it's only a three valve

60darklord I've tried that and it's just horrible sounding luckily my school uses contras with 4 valves but I don't play tuba for marching band I play baritone

+Willie Batista The latter. Tubas with more than 4 valves are generally rotary valves which don't have compensating capabilities.

Thanks for your time

+Willie Batista The fifth valve lowers the pitch by approximately five quarter tones i.e. a very flat whole step. Example, if you're playing a C, playing just the fifth valve will give you somewhere between a Bb and an A. The sixth valve adds another whole step lower than the fifth valve (I think). These two are generally used to play more in tune in the low register, as brass performers tend to go sharper the lower they play.

+Ryan Schneider I can agree. My four valve Bb tuba is so so sharp in the lower register. I have the fourth valve tuning slide pulled almost all of the way out

I think I'm moving to Britain! There are so few british style brass bands in America.

Luke Foster Do you play? Or do you just want to listen?

I play trombone/euph.

Sabina Kozlova There is no such thing as a 3 valve compensating instrument that I know of. It's a shame, but they'd be very complicated to design and build. The valves would need to be much longer than normal to accommodate all the additional loops of tubing.

Trent Hamilton I know that it exists. Search for more older versions of compensating Besson or Boosey & Hawkes tubas. Many of them has only 3 valves like this pbs.twimg.com/media/BswQpx9IUAAbcvb.jpg

Woah, I've seen those instruments, but I've never studied them closely. I will now. Thanks for pointing that out to me :)

No, not at all.

+MrSuperpancho9 It depends on the brand. Generally not, because piccolo trumpets aren't designed to play low. Their job is to play high notes.

Using your ear to compensate is not always a great idea. Because obtaining lower ranges requires more and more tubing as you progress lower, using your embouchure to adjust to the new center of pitch deteriorates tone quality of a player. It's the reason trombones can't always rely on moving their slides in or out to achieve intonation. This is what the valve system "Compensates" for. It's a great idea, and I wouldn't mind spending the extra money to get one for a Tuba or Euphonium.

Turbontine That's interesting. I've been playing tuba for 6 years, and I've always used my embouchure to adjust, and, ironically enough, my tone quality tends to get better in either extrema, compared to the normal range.

Robert Gradel Turbontine I'm going to side with Turbontine on this one - I think that having to manually compensate for your instrument is poor practice.

It's easy to compensate on a non-compensating tuba during slower passages. Compensating horns are always used in British brass bands because the player doesn't have time to worry about the intonation problems of the horn when they are expected to play in tune while playing shredding bass lines.

I've played all sorts of horns and even own a EEb compensator bass, and I'll tell you this: I would never touch a non-compensating bass tuba after playing compensating horn, the low range is much easier to access at greater speeds than non-compensating bass tubas. As for contrabass tubas, it really depends on the style of music you play. If you don't go below E1 very often then a non-comper will do just fine. If you play below E1 very often like BBb basses do in BBBs, then I would highly suggest getting a BBb comper.

A true double horn is in a category of it's own. Although there are compensating 4 valve horns where if you activate the fourth valve the airflow goes through the valve block twice; kinda like what happens with compensating pistons.

Lynn Hall Don't forget C#

Steffen Axmann C# = Db. If you're referring to concert C# (a trumpet's D#/Eb), I've been taught that that pitch should not have the 3rd valve slide extended.

Lynn Hall I meant C# in Bb, but purely in theory it is a tiny bit higher than Db.

Steffen Axmann I agree, as a musician of details, it's good to hear how notes blend with different keys and chords.

I'd try my best to answer your question with my limited knowledge of physics and music... so correct me if I'm wrong. I also play the trumpet, so I know what you are talking about. I think the extension is needed because of the fact that the relationship between musical notes and frequency is nonlinear. the 3rd value of the trumpet I believe is designed to make the 2+3 value combination in tune, that's why we don't need to extend the tube on concert C# and F#. however, since the first value is designed to make the fundamentals of the trumpet down one whole step from Bb to Ab, and the length of the tube is the ratio of that change and ONLY That change. The same goes with the 2nd value (but from Bb to A). Then the problem emerge when you press the 3rd value, as it tunes the instrument down to about G (so Bb to G), and the ratio of frequency you need to further change the fundamentals one whole step from G to F is actually bigger than what you need from Bb to Ab, meaning you need more tubing. and that why we need to extend the 3rd value.

Mostly. The B-flat side of the double horn has its own tuning slides and the air doesn't pass through the F tuning slides when the trigger is engaged. On compensating valves, the low side has short lengths of tubing that the air passes through in addition to the valve slides on the normal side

Ok thank you i was wondering

Trombone players all seem to be compensating for something, but you'll have to work that out on your own.

lol

majcrash I mean like, the seventh position using the F valve. Like, just a "kind of half" extension, instead of another valve with a third of extension.

Dude, you have a giant slide that's infinitely adjustable on the fly. Why do you need a compensating system? Other than for my earlier comment, of course.

+Hermann Otto That's a very random question. No. I do not, nor ever had, worked for the IRD.

There's not enough length to do that effectively and still play in tune, at least not for long instruments.

+Aaron Hastie Because pressing the fourth valve sends the airstream back through the valves through a different set of holes.