Hardcasts, FTW!

@@texasbeast239 Xtreme penetrators

Excellent insight into the root of the issue with the 10mm caliber! As I mentioned it is incumbent on the buyer to know and understand the history of the round the ballistic capability of the ammunition they purchase. Thanks for viewing and we hope to hear from you again soon.

There are two downsides to that FBI Lite Load. Not only do we continue to be haunted by the low-power paradigm established by that load. But because that load ushered in the .40S&W bullet, we now are haunted by .40 projectiles being loaded into 10mm cases and being passed off as 10mm. And when people attempt to load .40 bullets to 10mm speeds, undesirable things often happen. Petals overextend and flatten against bullet shanks, petals completely frag off, decently swaged jackets and cores start shriveling (XTPs, Noslers), even bonded bullets peel almost all the way off (SGDs), and beautiful signature expansion patterns turn into ugly shrapnel (HST, Talons/Rangers/PDX Defenders). We are handicapped by loads AND projectile builds.

@@texasbeast239 Very much. I would love to see a 10mm Deep Curl like what Speer loads for .357 Magnum

@@texasbeast239 In my experience, the 180 and 200 gr XTPs do pretty well with full power 10mm, at least with all the velocity a 4.6 inch barrel can give them. I have taken several deer with the 200 gr XTP from Underwood, which chronos right at or slightly above 1200 fps from my Glock 20, and it performed very well.

The reason we have so many reduced loads is that 10mm pushes the limits of a lot of frames. There is on average more wear and tear and parts need to be replaced more frequently. Remember the Colt Omega and how their frames all cracked ? These lighter loads are also good for training and long sessions. The advantage of having a round that can go into .41 Magnum territory means that you have to pay the price somewhere. We all remember the stories about S&W 29's being sold off with a box of ammo with one round missing and back in the day you had people who stuck to the .38 special no matter what even if they could carry a .357 Magnum. I do remember the articles in gun mags of the time where they hyped the 10mm as the Second Coming and it would be the perfect gun for cops, when they had hyped the Desert Eagle as the future gun of choice for every cop only a few years before because it had more ammo capacity in .357 magnum than a revolver. And then they saw the .40 S&W light with special FBI magic and then we got the 9mm with special Glock Magic ... 10mm is for people who want ammo that can outperform most common types and do things like barrier penetration.

Nice 👍

I like the underwood 200grn jhp, I also find the sig v crown 200 to be comparable.

Buffalo Bore 180gr gets 1,350 fps and over 720 ft lbs of energy, so there's even more potential in the 10mm round.

Love me the underwood 155 gr. xtp at 1500 fps @ 775 foot pounds, for two legged attackers.@@joshklaver47

Perfectly stated

The FBI watered down the 10mm load, picked a dud S&W gun to shoot it from, then abandoned the caliber in the early '90s. In 1997, the bureau embraced .40S&W, which gave the same weakened power in a smaller package for smaller hands. This formula prospered in law enforcement and civilian circles for 2 decades. Without the big government contract and with a more user-friendly competitor now on the market, 10mm barely survived for the next few decades. It did so largely by .40S&W bullets loaded weak into longer cases and being masqueraded as 10mm. I call it "10mmINO": "10mm In Name Only". You're exactly right that boutique ammo companies and reloading are the only way for us to get true 10mm power nowadays. But even then, most of the projectiles available are still .40S&W and therefore really only built for .40S&W speeds. Overspending interferes with proper expansion and leads to fragging. So even when the boutique companies and reloaders try to load up to 10mm power, their hands are still kinda tied. We need REAL 10mm bullets and loads these days, but so far they don't seem to exist.

Did it chrono that fast out of the derringer?

@@joshklaver47 it's a little under (about 2200) out of my derringers 3 inch barrel, but that's still insanely fast. I also use it in my Springfield xdm elite 10mm

45 is very good, but definitely larger

ya, I would agree with you here. All 10mm owners I know, for the most part, know exactly what ammo to shoot. I like underwood 200 or 220 hardcast, and the only time im buying other brands of 10mm is if it's on sale or i can find it really cheap. Other than that, I have noticed most people who move up into 10mm territory tend to be more or less experienced and know what they are getting into. I think this dude is generally pretty good, but like most, he appeals to authority and wants to seem like he is some sort of insider on the subject. If you want to know more, the buffalo bore site has good articles on 10mm, as well as other things.

@samson I've been using the sig v crown in 200g JHP. I find it comparable to underwood 200's

Underwood ammo

Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, and Underwood are all sure winners.

That’s a very good point! I own a G40 in 10mm as a backup for hunting and I hand load my ammo as hot as I can manage it. While it is perfectly tailored for MY use, I never considered how the average user (that doesn’t reload) that buys a 10mm can run into trouble with ammo that is either too hot to control or too weak to cycle his gun.

For 10mm ammo choices, it's pretty simple. Buffalo Bore, Underwood, or Double Tap. You can't go wrong with any of them.

Me too!!!!

You mean 10mm. The decision to thicken the slide of the Gen5 .40s was complete overkill and makes for a poorer handling handgun compared to the G19. I've owned every .40 cal Glock including a G24 running a KKM .357 barrel and full power Underwood rounds, and have never seen a cracked slide or frame, using the factory recoil spring. When you increase slide mass, you also increase perceived recoil. My Gen5 G23 feels considerably snappier than my Gen4 G27 (a smaller gun).

All salient points! The 10mm lends itself to some large frames to handle the energy and for me provide some balance issues especially when the mag is running low due to no counterweight. I also could not agree more about multiple shots. Energy comes at a cost.....controllability. Thanks for supporting our channel, I deeply appreciate it.

@@9unslin9er I can’t lie, I love the new Glock 23 gen 5 and the Glock 22 gen 5. A little heavier than the gen 4 but i soaks that recoil up much better than the other gen’s. I think Glock nailed it. No 40 s&w should be shot out of a 9mm frame. But it can be done. The thicker frame makes it easier to handle if you ask me. I RESPECTFULLY disagree.

@@mrheavenbound9164 The frame is the exact same width my guy. It's the SLIDE that's thicker. *I carried a G22 on duty since 2009, and went through every .40 cal Glock Gen3-5. I've qualified with them all for on and off-duty use. The Gen5 accuracy is subpar. The "marking" barrel actually ruins the gun's accuracy. The heavier slide and elimination of fingergrooves causes a substantially bigger recoil impulse.

@@9unslin9er yeah you’re right. It’s the slide that’s thicker. My mistake. And shout out to you and all your achievements!!! But it’s my opinion. You have yours… and I have mines. .

Walther makes a great pistol for sure and it did seem to take smith awhile to put that out. At shot show this past year one of their own poster ads said.....Finally with a picture of the M&P 10mm. Thanks for viewing and be safe.

My guess is that a whole chain of events conspired to make S&W avoid 10 for the last 3 decades, and to hang on to .40 instead. In 1989, S&W's 4506 .45ACP handgun was selected as the basis of the FBI's first 10mm duty weapon over Glock, despite Glock warning against several of the contract specs the FBI was demanding. Firstly, Glock thought their new polymer frame approach could absorb a lot of the mighty 10's recoil snap, so there didn't seem to be any real need for a steel frame as the FBI was insisting. But that wasn't all. The resulting S&W 1076 was a complete dud as issued. It was a fat, heavy, all-steel gun intended for hot loads, but fed with the weakest 10mm ammo ever--not a good mix. The original S&W 4506 slide-mounted decocker was ordered to be moved down into the frame so more hands could access it--but the frame became even bigger than ever, so it ended up too big for some female agents' hands. Those agents had to use the SSA John Hall's Delta to qualify (no word on what they actually carried in the field, though!). And even though Glock warned there would not be enough room for all the parts to move around in the frame if the decocker was relocated, S&W did it anyway--and the gun jammed constantly, right up to the point of completely seizing up. So the FBI recalled the gun and disowned the caliber for everyday duty after less than 2 years of service (1990-91). Then in 1991, the G20 Gen2 10mm pistol arrived, but methinks the FBI's ego was too bruised to immediately turn to Glock with open arms. The bureau would rather let the caliber die on the vine than pick another 10mm platform so soon, and certainly not if it would help Glock. Not surprisingly, Glock sued the FBI. The bureau seemed just a little too cozy with S&W for common sense, despite the warnings, and given the results. But Glock lost. G20's found limited use in FBI HRT hands, though. And the FBI Lite Load was no longer on the menu. S&W and Winchester were working behind the scenes on a newer cartridge which would give FBI Lite Load power, but in a shorter package that would allow for smaller-framed guns: .40S&W. The FBI was leery at first, so it issued whatever 9mm and .45ACP weapons it could get in bulk during the interim. When the FBI did come around to .40S&W, Glock beat S&W to the punch, and the G23/27 models took the prize, and they were issued for 18 years (1997-2014). (IMO, this could have been a bit of a belated final mea culpa from the bureau over the 10mm fiasco.) So both companies were happy: Glock for the gun, and S&W had its name stamped on every single freedom pill loaded into it. I don't think S&W ever wanted that gravy train to end. The ammo deal was great marketing. And they probably still were smarting from the smackdown over their first 10mm handgun. Why go back to that and directly confront that failure if they didn't have to? Because there is a healthy market for 10mm now! So S&W somehow both jumped the gun (1076) and was also late to the party (M&P 2.0) when it comes to 10mm handguns. Who knew? 🤷🏽‍♂️

I doubt Glock had any input on S&W's design decisions. They wouldn't know the first thing about making steel pistols anyway. Glock rushed their first .40 S&W models to market, with unsurprising safety issues as a result. It was really the HK USP, Sig P229, and Beretta PX4 Storm that were the standout pistols in .40 S&W, among others.

I EDCC my G20 because it's the smallest handgun I own. I found a Kydex IWB for my XDM-10-5.25, but bigger is still big. Still looking for one for my Tanfo Match. What I have found works best for fullsize 10mm's is a belly band which you can attach your IWB Kydex too. This distributes the considerable weight of a fullsize gun all the way around your waist, instead of concentrating it in just one spot on your pants waistband. And you can throw an IWB mag holder on the other side, too. Belly bands let you go around beltless, or in shorts, or in PJs, or even commando!

When I held the XDM 3.8, it didn’t feel right. Too small for my large/med hand.

45 acp is a relic

There's no reason to carry a 10mm revolver. There will always be an equivalent revolver in .357 Magnum, which will deliver more power and give you more options for loading with speed loaders, speed strips, etc. Auto calibres just don't really make sense in revolvers.

Those restrictions will be struck down shortly. 10mm will still be awesome though.

I have several hundred rounds of "Pro Load" 180 gr Nosler JHP's from the 1990's which go 1,375 fps, and the new Underwood 180 gr goes 1,250, which is still pretty good.

Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and Double Tap are safe bets when it comes to 10mm ammo. You can't go wrong with any of them.

As a retired LEO, I really enjoy the Glock 30...great close quarter handgun. As far as the 10MM cartridge, I think many have a mythical belief it's better than anything else for CCW.

@@Lee-rq1ek I've owned every single Glock except for the Micro 9s and found the G30 has the best power/handling to weight ratio of all them. I find .40 to be a superior cartridge, but it's a bit too much blast in a compact firearm. .45ACP is incredibly flat and soft shooting through a Glock. Agreed on 10mm. Along with .380, they should be phased out altogether. There's nothing 10mm can do that .357 Mag didn't already do in the decades that preceded it. Likewise in the realm of mouse guns, it's probably as effective and definitely more financially responsible to just carry and shoot a .22lr Ruger LCR rather than a Glock 42.

@@9unslin9er Never owned a Glock until nine years AFTER I retired...my large SE Texas department has never issued any firearms. For the last 13 years of my career I carried a S&W Model 411, which I still have. I enjoy 40 cal, so the first Glock I purchased was a Glock 22 which I often carry. In my opinion the 40 is a full size gun cartridge...out of the smaller handguns, it can be rough.

@@Lee-rq1ek If you come into some disposable income, try to assemble a Glock 26L (1926). It is a Glock 19 Slide on top a 26 Frame with a Lone Wolf Slide Adapter covering the exposed recoil spring. This combo is essentially a 9mm version of the G30, albeit with a 4" barrel. Highly concealable package with extended sight radius. *Many guns have come and gone in my collection, but one of my biggest regrets was not buying back my G22 Gen3 RTF2 with the fish gill serrations, when my PD switched to Gen4. Such a sweet shooter.

@@9unslin9er I'm pretty much a S&W person, however, I do shoot both Glocks very well. Of course, I have other, older models of handguns...Sig Sauer, Springfield Armory, etc., but I purchase guns for a particular purpose...in 9MM I often carry the S&W 2.0 with the 3.6" barrel...15+1 and will accept the 17 round full-size magazines.

Glock 29 with Underwood ammo; I own the 23 as well.

You should get a .357 SIG conversion barrel. The Underwood 65gr Xtreme Defenders perform insanely well. They're like a mini rifle. They hit 2,100 fps, shoot flat to 100 yards, and zip through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter. They generate as much muzzle energy as 62gr 5.56 out of an AR pistol. Amazing stuff.

Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc, are all 100% fine to use for carry ammo. A good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of your ammunition choice. That is highly unlikely to be a factor in court, and any decent lawyer would tear that apart if the DA tried it.

sig sauer elite is pretty warm too

Even the hottest 10mm won't touch an equivalent .357 Magnum, although it is still very stout. You just can't overcome the advantage of an 8mm longer case to stuff full of powder.

Have you chronoed it, yet? YT testers have shown it going more like 1150fps. This is lukewarm for 10mm. And it also has a tendency to frag because it isn't bonded. This limits penetration depth. Sig has a 200gr load that now that may go deeper, but it's also even slower. I think Sig itself rates it at only 1050fps.

That isn't quite full power. Buffalo Bore 180gr gets 1,350 fps.

A stout 10mm should deliver over 700 ft lbs of energy. Even Buffalo Bore 155gr .40 S&W generates over 580 ft lbs.

Thank you for viewing and yes, that is our next video. We shoot the 10mm into some gel and the results are very interesting, stay tuned and thanks again!

15 in the mag and one in the pipe 15+1.

Wow...I'm glad I held off on the 2.0 then. I owned a M&P45 2.0 and the mag catch was broken. I would dump the mag every time I fired a round. I have had more problems with S&W quality control than any other gun company. They'll make things right, but you probably won't get a fully functional one out of the box. Shame.

My m&p 2.0 10MM has been flawless with about 200 plus rounds through it so far zero issues or hiccups even ran extra hot underwood 2 different types as well. FYI 4.6 inch model.

@@VenomousKills 200 rounds or “four boxes” of ammo is really nothing yet. Just look at the many videos of problems people have had with the M&P 10mm.

@@colt10mmsecurity68 most have had issues right out the start with the pistol immediately, and I’ve yet to have any issues many others in groups I am in have had flawless performance with many more rounds than I’ve had through mine with zero issues, yes there are issues with some out there for sure, but many have also had zero issues. Always two sides of the coin.

@@johnklatt3522 Interesting. Sadly I live in commifornia and can’t buy ammo off the internet. Finding Underwood in a gun retailer is basically non existent. I have maybe 500 rounds of Underwood in 180 and 200 grain HP’s. I don’t shoot it and bought them when we still could in Cali. I use them for ccw in the sierras on high mountain backpacking fishing trips and big game hunting. After I retire in a year and move to a free state, I’ll buy more underwood.

I REALLY want to track down some of these.

@texas BEAST tombstone tactical has them in stock 29 a box

@@eddiearchuleta615 Grazzi signor

Buffalo Bore does 180gr hollow points at 1,350 fps. Those are a good option. Same with the Underwood 140gr Xtreme Penetrators. They'll go through soft body armour like it's nothing, and they're still devastating against unarmoured targets.

Buffalo Bore and Double Tap are on par with Underwood. Very stout loadings.

I nominally CC by carrying IWB and untucking my shirt, but it basically still prints like a mofo. So be it.

That Double Tap ammo gets up to 1,400 fps and over 700 ft lbs of energy. No 9mm round will get even remotely close to that performance, period. 9mm will deliver at most a little over 500 ft lbs of energy with a 124gr bullet.

your right I did this 29+20 mag+xgrip and sleeve...beautiful fit!!!and feel.

It's not uncommon to find .40 carry ammo that has higher velocities compared with 10mm range ammo.

@@joshklaver47 Are there .40 rounds that travel at 1600 fps and hit with 767 fpe? Maybe, but I doubt it.

@@reynoldcindrich4851 If you read my comment, I said there are warm-hot .40 loads that are more powerful than light 10mm loads. That is 100% true. Obviously the hottest .40 loads can't match the hottest 10mm loads, as the 10mm has a longer case and thus more powder capacity. I didn't think I'd have to explain that in this company.

@@joshklaver47 It appears I was in a bit of a hurry reading it. Right you are.

@@reynoldcindrich4851 No harm done.