"Well, it wasn't that big a mock battle, I think there might have been 500-1000 of us" JESUS

3:56 This ranks along with "Run Away!" from Monty Python's Holy Grail as the best battle cry ever.

The "crush" effect is present in many historical battles. Usually the writers or chroniclers will say that the men "could not dispose themselves" or were "unable to keep order." I think lots of times readers take this to mean that the men were scared or wavering, when in fact it could've largely been that the press from one's own comrades was getting too much to allow one to do anything. Cannae is a good example. The turn of Cannae is attributed to the African pikemen hitting the Romans on the flanks, because flank attacks are generally disruptive. But the fact remains that the Romans still heavily outnumbered the Carthaginians and would have had fresh men in the rear ranks. Why didn't the Roman flanks simply turn to face their threat, while the Roman center continued to punch through the Carthaginian line? All of the Roman lines had merged into one great mass. Some people have wondered why this mass did not continue to simply go forward and rupture the Carthaginian center, considering that the infantry there were at that point extremely fatigued and had suffered many wounds. Even with Carthaginian pikemen deploying on the Roman flanks, you would think that the Romans to the front and center would be oblivious or not as concerned. Very likely, the Romans on the flanks were moving away from the Africans to the center, as were the Romans at the rear who were having trouble with Numidians and skirmishers. The Roman center mass would have been getting so compressed that the men may not have been able to move or fight much at all, so not able to add any further impetus to the attacks in any direction. Therefore, even though it was very weak, the Carthaginian center held because Roman numerical advantage was more or less nullified by the "crush." As acknowledgement of the fact that they were encircled began to spread, it seems reasonable the Romans would have only retreated further into their own ranks and became even more compressed.

Regarding the first story (the one about the reserve unit), what I think happened was this: You know how when you're watching TV, or reading a book, or playing a video game, and everything except the object you are focused on disappears? Your peripheral vision, even your hearing, is dulled to enable your complete concentration on the subject, and you can quite easily miss things that seem blindingly obvious in hindsight (the dancing gorilla video is a perfect example). Likewise, you were concentrating on the enemy lines, anticipating their maneouvre and psyching yourself up for close quarter battle against them. Thus, they occupied your full attention, as they presented the most direct threat, and your missing the reserve unit could be put down to them not being part of the main block, and not directly threatening you. It was only when they joined the line of battle, and thus became a threat, that you noticed them.

I'd rather watch mock battles like this on TV than most of the rubbish on there

500 eyes? You were fighting alongside cyclopes?

In American Civil War reenacting we always joked (whined) about the other side getting their wool from Kevlar sheep.

I think it would be awesome to see some "first person" footage from these battles. Like with some sort of helmet camera, but they are so expensive you propably wouldnt want to risk it been hit.

The SCA units I've fought in deal with crush pretty simply: the shield wall gets crushed together, because we're not supposed to fight anyway. We're mostly there to put holes in the other unit's shield wall. I was trained that if I can't feel the guy to my right and left, I'm too far away during a charge. It's the spears that do the real damage. Also, I have been the lone guy going against an entire unit--we flanked a unit, and another opposing unit (which, as you experienced, we never saw) flanked us. I was the left-most person, and charged head-on. It ended in a trip to the ER and a broken collar bone that made a doctor turn pale when he saw the x-ray. Good times! :D

I fear that the French might try to even up the scoreline...

An interesting point about morale and training and unit cohesion being crucial about battle lines.

My teams (13-20 people) main tactic in our battles (consisting of about 600 people) is to stay a little bit behind the main line, and to move out of sight of the opposition to a gap in line where we can result in a sudden overpowering impact. Any unforeseen change in the field does disorient the opposition for long enough to have drastic results.

My experience with big mock battle reenactments (of which I participated in two in college) was that the people at the front lines tended to display courage and recklessness that would send Spartans crying for their mommies like wee damsels in distress. This is primarily because we, of course, literally don't fear death - because we don't have to; it's a mock battle. On the other hand, I can see real-life demoralized troops crushing each other like the video describes.

he wasn't in command, how is it possible?

I'd like him to change the title to "Some contusions from a mock battle."

These videos have made me realise just how important psychology, discipline, positioning and the like is important in battles. As a kid I thought that having stronger guys was the only thing tha mattered.

The part about infantry screening infantry from view reminds me of something the Dallas Cowboys (American Football) used to do back in the 70s. The offensive line would stand straight up for a second while the backs shifted position. It looked ridiculous but by having five guys stand in unison, the opposition would lose track of where the backs had moved, and in many cases wouldn't figure out where they were until it was too late.

This one had no very precise date, but 'dark age' would be fitting.

In my re-enactment experiences, crushing has definitely been an issue. Sometimes it just came down to our _god-awful_ higher command. They had all these fancy formations in their heads, and not only were completely ineffectual at utilising them, the formations more often than not just resulted in a mass of bodies piled together with vaguely interlocking shields. Half of the time the men would be taught something useful, like the Testudo, (there were forts and fairly high-powered projectile mechanisms) but the other half was full of made-up formations that didn't suit the men's weapons at all, and really encouraged them to crush together once any real movement began. Eventually we officers started ignoring them and sticking to the tried-and-true. Even then men would either bunch up or start getting into the fight and break formation, but that was manageable and a common real-life problem, even for the "super-disciplined" Romans. But every night it was the same, "..And make sure to be using those formations more often!"

I started as Carthage and made Rome kiss my boots. It's the Ptolemaians that just won't give up. Koinon Hellenon has so far managed to evade my wrath... Amazing how such an old game can stay so awesome. Great mod.

I first read the title as "Concussions from a mock battle" and thought that it isn't much of a mock if that comes about. Good to see it was only the crush that got you.

How do you get into such mock battles?

The fear of staring down at a pike wall. The pleasant realisation that you're an archer.

Your videos are awesome!

As a wargamer I find this fascinating. Thank you.

I can not even imagine how soldiers doing the real deal some centuries ago would feel, taking into account that even in a mock battle people tend to seek for safety...

The buckler is actually quite handy for duels, works great if you know how to use it. It excels at binding enemy weapons. I.33 is something you should look up, the oldest surviving manuscript in Europe. It covers the buckler, which has been around in some form throughout history.

3:55 "Heegh" XD

Exactly. Thats why you need high morale in every army, so they are all preapared to put their lives on the line.

Another great video, Lloyd. I think your experience bears out the time-tested maxim that the better-trained, more-disciplined army almost always wins out when numbers are even remotely equal.

Actually good point. Drilling or any form of training is what kicks in when adrenaline sends you from your "reasoning" brain to your "fight or flight" brain. Many soldiers, police, etc report that only your training gets you through because intelligent/rational thought goes out when your pumped and scared. Suppose that's why such fighting infantry such as Roman Legionaries and British Redcoats had good battle results.

Biggest battle I was in was Waterloo 200, and holy shit was crush a big issue. 5000 reenactors total, most if not all roughly drilled and spacing was a bloody nightmare in larger formations. It makes a colossal difference having qualified sergeants coming round making sure your stood correctly. unfortunately our sergeant had decided at that event to become a mouse in uniform.

Was wondering if you'd ever give a commentary on some of the re-enactment combat within the SCA, ACL, HEMA, etc?

And this is why experienced soldiers were deployed at the rear (at least in Roman system pre-Marius, after Marius they were disclipned enough for it to not matter), if you don`t know what is happening, it is a lot scarier and you are thus more likely to run away.

Lindy with your level of fame you could organize the greatest reenactment ever. Imagine all your sibscribers bringing friends and telling about it. Bring it.

I suppose that having good scouts meant quite a lot before the days of the airplane. A good scout unit might make the difference between thinking your enemy had such and such a number of men and KNOWING they had that number.

it's surprising how relevant these kinds of things are not just in antiquated war, but in modern manoeuvre warfare a light force of recce or AFV light tanks, or IFV cavalry may exploit a weakness in an enemy offensive, but what then? the fear of fighting itself, especially against overwheling odds can cause infantry and armored forces to not only attempt to remain hidden even when they have a window of opportunity, but to rout completely, as seen even in recent symmertrical wars like falklands.

Brilliant.

Battles tended not to be about total slaughter, because both parties realized that there was eventually going to be a need for fighters in another battle. The only times you had slaughters were when the victor knew that he could pull it off with minimal losses to his own forces, while trapping the opposition. Even then, many ran and escaped. Culloden comes to mind both for the slaughter during the battle, and what happened afterward.

The shifting of troops was a huge problem in Hellenic style phalanx battles. People would tend to shift to the right to get more into the shield of their neighbor, which is why allied armies with Spartans in them put the Spartiates on the right; these guys would have the discipline to resist this pushing force and anchor the line, often simultaneously winning the right flank and preventing the left flank from being flanked. (This is one of the primary specialties of Spartans.)

Wow, you really know your shit. Greatest respect !

I think that some studies have been done that show that a composite material such as multiple layers of cloth glued together are a lot harder to pierce than even the best shoe leather. I've watched video of daggers rammed through inches of that stuff. Myth busters did a test run on Chinese paper armor made the same way and it was good for a couple of good hits.

Do a commentary on some video of a mock battle!!! i saw one you did and it was great! Do more!!

The phenomenon of disregarding hits is often referred to as Rhino-hiding. It is often confused with the related problem of participants having differing expectations of what should count as a telling blow (often referred to as calibration). I have found that truly solid hits only rarely fall victim to either phenomenon.

I've totally failed the Turing test on purpose before as a way to derail a troll. It works surprisingly well.

i just understood the battle of cannae, thanks a bunch

Very interesting, I think this is why the Romans spaced themselves out so much (like you see in the opening scene of gladiator).

I love your insight into this stuff, I unfortunately do not have a very lively local re-enactment community, so I miss out on a lot of events like this.

I read the title as "Concussions from a mock battle" and didn't notice I've misread it until the end of the video when no concussions were mentioned. woo!

Some people Rhino Hide all the time, not just when they are winning. As an example: I was in Clarksville Tn and when we went down to Nashville for battles the Nashvillians were notorious Rhino hiders so we would always go for groin shots when possible. It's hard to ignore a solid, two-handed pole arm strike to the nads even if you are wearing a cup. And those stupid Hellhounds with their double ended glaives always made us laugh.

So it would be a good idea to have officers/veterans on the corners of a formation. I am almost sure, i read about it a long time ago and wondered what they were doing there, being vulnerable and all that, but this explains it.

Had the same at a re-enactment battle. Our clans were mixed so we were not fighting with the people we used to.The total lack of discipline resulted in the situation you described. I was caught in the middle and could not move. Our 2nd line could not use the long distance weapons anymore and the opponents run over us. Saw many shield vs shield situations that day....

Nice points. :)

If that's what happens in a mock battle then imagine the much greater degree of that behaviour in a real battle, where life and limb are actually on the line. I imagine that given the heat and press you could actually have soldiers die from suffocation, in the heart of the formation.

Humans can fail the Turing test.

That's where spiked armor comes in handy...

Yeah :P Great video as always, Lloyd. Any plans on going to the Essex military airshow at the end of the month? Lots of big reenactments happen there, but mostly 20th century stuff.

The crushing thing can actually kill people in large crowds. It's quite dangerous and something that in such mock battles people should have been instructed against.

Where was that mock battle? Is it a regular event? Can i see you there if it ever happens again? On another note: Thanks for all your videos, you are my favorate youtuber!!! Keep up the good work

Yes, the guys on the winning side tend ignore hits received cause they are in the middle of an adrenaline rush, they probably didnt even feel the incoming hits, they were tunneled so much on seeing a opposing force being vanquished before their eyes and the desire for total victory fueled them on...

At Moesgaard, we often deploy and then pull out reserves. Not that hard, they just have to either know what to do or employ Auftragstaktik.

I know this was some time ago, but how do you get involved in mock battles and such like that? I've been in a small LARPing group with little foam swords and shields, tennis ball tip arrows, and rarely ever more than 30 people total. I love the sound of actually getting involved....then again doubt I'd find one anywhere near I am, but still this tale really makes me want to get into it as someone that loves the Total War battle series and a few Firs Person Hack and Slash games. How did you determine when a person was killed btw, and did you have lie down and "die" or just march off the field when you take a lethal blow or something? I imagine just lieing down would be...kinda dangerous heh.

How in detail are these mock battles? Do you use actual armor and blunted weapons? Also I like your re-enactment stories they sound pretty fun.

Try going to the Rumble in the Jungle, from what I hear it's very very good, viking re-enactment, and they do many mock battles with actual tactics!

What happened to you in the center sounds very similar to the battle of Agincourt.

I loved that eeh noise you made :p

Could one purpose of the big hoplite shields have been to help preserve spacing? Not sure how that would work since I've never used one. What do you think?

lol always love the "final statement"

Do you ever use wedge formation charges in mock battles? I can see the use in it on cavalry charging into infantry but on infantry vs infantry it just seems like a good way for the guy at the front to die first, I suppose his death will be avenged maybe?

If I'm interpreting correctly, this was a situation where one unit was facing two that were coming slightly to the left and slightly to the right. Surely, it would actually be good for you and the other people in the middle to step forwards slightly so that all parts of your unit are equidistant from at least one enemy? The 'crushing' could be used to your advantage by forcing your unit into a triangular/trapezial formation with more of the surface area of your unit facing theirs upon contact?

Most likely they started out with pikes themselves and when things get into a mob the sword and buckler were drawn as their secondary weapon.

Ex Dark-Age Society member here - I've had similar experiences.

Sight blockers were heavily used in ancient warfare. Especially by Rome.

I've fought with a buckler, they are quite good for duels but not so useful in a battle. Against a single spearman they do well, but would be useless against multiple ones. Bucklers are great for binding enemy weapons, hence why they are useful against spearmen (my buckler is 18 inch, on the large end of the scale). They require good reflexes, perception, coordination, and timing to use well. They are very different in use to the large viking shields I use most of the time.

im in game design and I watch your videos alot nowadays and your tips could create a GREAT game compared to what we have, if love if you made a list of combat specs that games DONT have, and only send that list to me so we can split the profits you know what im sayin

I think perhaps if the defender have the initiative, and to actually advance towards the enemy, then the "crushing" effect might be nullified somewhat. Of course, commanding ill-disciplined troop is another matter altogether.

How do you get into reenactment? And are Battles common? I'm rather interested in getting into some WW2 reenactment stuff, and Ive seen a few sites in the UK but how common is a good battle?

Interesting to hear, must be one of the reasons why the Romans had a much looser formation than the Greeks with smaller units being able to move back and forth more easily than a whole battle line, I also suspect that the "gaps" in the quincux formation probably weren't that much of a problem, since most people would be weary to march into an area knowing they could be attacked from three sides at once ...

the question i ask myself is: in a real battle wouldent you have the very opposite effect? meaning that people are trying to be the guy on the end -> the guy that stands where the other army does not hit (in the middle)? so to say: at the reenectment you want to fight (that is why you went there in the first place) while in a real battle i imagine not fighting sounds like a real cool thing to be doing......

I should imagine it would help if you had a guy riding around on a horse shouting orders and being bossy though it must be a hard job to keep track of everything which is going on. Where do you do the re-enactments? Sounds like fun.

Hey Lindybeige, was wondering what your thoughts are on Wat Tyler's Rebellion

The specifics depend where you are, but most are basically the same where safety is concerned, you have to have sufficient protection of all vital areas etc, and likewise preventative measures with all weapons. Google Society for Creative Anachronism.

What are some good reenactment events or societies in the south of England for under 18s?

The problem with that formation is the lack of maneuverability If i was a general fighting a war and your forces tried that, I would send out some skirmishers and a mock force to harass them, keep them in that little circle. while my main force sacks the countryside and wins the war. Being able to keep formation and discipline while pulling men out of that formation, especially if they were being attacked, would be a truly legendary feat of skill.

Perhaps if you wielded a spear overarm then you would have not needed the room to utilize your weapon. Your experience of combat is really only Iron age style skirmishes, where all the men have more room to move.

You are talking about Enfilade and Defilade, in particular, Defilade. Enfilade is where you have the enemy directly in your line of fire. Defilade is when you don't. It also can refer to the fact that what you see isn't exactly what your weapon sees. If a unit is in Defilade of your sight, he's practically invisible to you. You are also describing a distinct lack of discipline on both the enemy's part and your side's part.

What period were you re-enacting because my group (a war of the roses one) spread out on the flanks when people want to get out of the way, and then they flank the enemy

How do these battles work? Are they pre-planned? How does the combat work? What about.the weapons?

As soon as this push starts, you do need a sergeant to bark "Hold!" at people. Are these battles ever videotaped and put on youtube? Would be cool to see... (a quick search yielded little)

bitchslap with big heavy shield usually works fine, hit in the head with pommel of sword or steel gauntlet is used too... but in general from what I saw if someone try to play Highlander and refuse to fall down and die, others will notice and make him play dead, sometimes even his allies.

Could you do a video on what reenacment battle "shows/festivals/etc" are the best with regards to realism? Most that I have seen are very cinematic, and thus boring. (And I dont have the physique to reenact myself)

Are these kinds of large battles common? Or should I wait for a blue moon?

this guy is a tough bad ass.

How and where were bucklers used? I really can't figure it out.

Using infantry and cavalry to screen troop movements.

That's why in Civilisation, I rush to get mechanized infantry...

I'm a re-enactor myself (3rd century Roman auxiliary), where/when are these giant reenacting events held and how can I join? :D

Do they use anything to simulate ranged weapons in reenactments? Like arrows or ballistae or javelins or anything?

3:56

better start getting our prehistoric and ancient \greek kit together