The Books Banned From the Bible: What Are the Gnostic Gospels?

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Alex O'Connor

Alex O'Connor

Күн бұрын

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- VIDEO NOTES
Elaine Pagels is an American historian of religion. She is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University. Pagels has conducted extensive research into early Christianity and Gnosticism.
- LINKS
Read "The Gnostic Gospels": amzn.to/4ad5n5X
- TIMESTAMPS
00:00 What is a Gnostic Gospel?
04:51 How the Gnostic Gospels Were Discovered
10:36 Secret Knowledge & Teachings
18:01 Do the Gnostic Gospels Contradict the New Testament?
23:01 Was Jesus Sent to Save Us From an Evil God?
28:27 Was Paul the Only True Apostle?
31:16 Nuances in Marcion & Valentinus’ Writings
37:44 Concept of God the Mother
41:20 Is Jesus the Serpent in Genesis?
47:02 Spiritual Revelation Over Authority
50:37 Worshipping Bishops as Though They Were Gods
54:42 What People Should Keep in Mind About the Gnostic Gospels
57:20 Controversial Final Passages in Thomas
1:07:33 Elaine’s Book
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A special thanks to my top-tier supporters on Patreon:
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Пікірлер: 2 400
@0ucantstopme034
@0ucantstopme034 Ай бұрын
What I found pretty cool in this interview was that after nearly 50 yrs. of studying this, Dr. Pagels was excited and animated when discussing things...
@myhatmygandhi6217
@myhatmygandhi6217 Ай бұрын
It would be difficult to study something that long if you weren't interested in it 😂
@javiermerino7579
@javiermerino7579 Ай бұрын
@@myhatmygandhi6217 What about the man who wasted his life studying ant-eaters? :)
@michaelfetter5413
@michaelfetter5413 Ай бұрын
If she were honest, she would acknowledge the historicity of these documents is nothing near the canon. Not even close.
@karekarenohay4432
@karekarenohay4432 Ай бұрын
@@michaelfetter5413 What do you mean with "historicity"? They are historical documents, that show Christianism was not a monolithic faith in the first two centuries after Christ. Do you think Matthew 27:52, with the dead coming out from their graves just after the crucifixion and visiting Jerusalem, is more "historic" than Gospel of Thomas?
@michaelfetter5413
@michaelfetter5413 Ай бұрын
@@karekarenohay4432 Number and consistency of manuscripts also factoring in time from the events. The gnostic "gospels" are literally fanfic of cultists from hundreds of years later than the canon with a tiny number of manuscripts.
@modernism100
@modernism100 9 күн бұрын
I so admire Elaine Pagels. A renowened scholar, translator and author, she is willing to sit down with Alex for hours and explore, revisit, explain, and converse. She is centered in her experience and scholarship (and spirituality) yet also has such an open, friendly receptivity. What a great dialogue as was the prior one with the great Justin Sledge. Thank you!
@RivenRock300
@RivenRock300 Күн бұрын
Your comment proves the point , that's why such perversions of : APOCRYPHA, SEPTUAGINT, Book of Enoch , Westcott and Hort RV and today Nestles text . All came out of Alexandria , Egypt. The Muslims burned most of this trash , but evidently Satan found a way to hide some of it . This Harvard graduate , is typical of what comes out of that school .
@ionasmith1998
@ionasmith1998 Ай бұрын
I wonder how these older people feel about being approached by Alex who is so much younger to talk about their work. They must be so so happy to share their thoughts and feelings in a way they wouldn’t usually.
@Jacob-py9mx
@Jacob-py9mx Ай бұрын
Older people love when younger people pick up their work
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb Ай бұрын
😂
@TheClosestThingToTimeTravel
@TheClosestThingToTimeTravel Ай бұрын
@kenkaplan3654
@kenkaplan3654 Ай бұрын
She has talked with Dereck Lambert of Mythvision quite a bit and teaches young students. They're used to it.
@Koko161081
@Koko161081 Ай бұрын
She’s a professor of history - she probably has dozens of such discussions in her classes and office with students on a weekly basis.
@alexdenton6586
@alexdenton6586 Ай бұрын
Can you have Jesus on your podcast next time ? I think it would answer a lot of questions
@alanbregovic8889
@alanbregovic8889 Ай бұрын
dude has a sword mayb he got arrested
@alexdenton6586
@alexdenton6586 Ай бұрын
@@alanbregovic8889 I do not understand why he is not responding. It is a perfectly valid request.
@lifethroughromans8295
@lifethroughromans8295 Ай бұрын
​@alexdenton6586 - Jesus is responding. He is on the KZfaq channel called "Tom Loud".
@DilutedH2SO4
@DilutedH2SO4 Ай бұрын
dw lad, i've got him on speed dial. i'll see if he's not too busy with world hunger and all that x
@zsqu
@zsqu Ай бұрын
it seems pretty intellectually dishonest to criticise his works and teachings without debating or even offering to talk with him.
@mymom1462
@mymom1462 Ай бұрын
Glad to see you get actual Gnostics on here. This is a reminder to all: The Early Gnostics did not call themselves 'Gnostics' they considered themselves Christians and simply disagreed with the orthodoxy. According to the Apocrypha of John, the main Tragedy in the Gnostic Creation myth was Sophia (a child of the Original God) birthing the Demiurge (aka Yaldabaoth) without the consent of the original God. This was the tragedy instead of eating from the apple. I reccomend ESOTERICA as an introduction to the whole concepts its pretty interesting. 😊
@japexican007
@japexican007 Ай бұрын
I recommended the video on my playlist “wake up this world is an illusion” titled Dualism: the Illuminati Religion, I pray you wake up from the lowercase god if this world who blinds those who believe not
@WizDomSon
@WizDomSon Ай бұрын
Fascinating
@rimbusjift7575
@rimbusjift7575 Ай бұрын
Memory is finite. Save space for relevant matters.
@bubbag8895
@bubbag8895 Ай бұрын
Not a fan of Gnosticism, but it does have some interesting tidbits imo
@tangimeme
@tangimeme Ай бұрын
​@@rimbusjift7575 how do you know/judge what's relevant or not, especially considering you can't possibly know what will or won't be relevant in your future with any real certainty at all? I'm 100% sure you don't have a memory full of only "relevant" or utilitarian memories lol. Your comment is basically a roundabout way to do whataboutism and express that you don't care about this lol. It's very transparent, brother 😅 Let people enjoy the things they wanna enjoy instead of moralising and judging to make yourself feel special and smart 🤷‍♀️ The things you care about and think are important are just as accurate/inaccurate, meaningful/meaningless, and relevant/irrelevant as anyone else. You'd have to think pretty highly of yourself or lowly of others to believe otherwise and you should aim to avoid that. Maybe you really are extra special and know more "relevant" stuff than everyone else, but even that wouldn't make it make sense to judge what others want to use their minds for... People are allowed to enjoy things you don't care about and you don't have to let everyone know how you feel about it 🤷‍♀️
@Zachary_Setzer
@Zachary_Setzer Ай бұрын
Having earned my degree in Religious Studies from UNC under Bart Ehrman, among others, it's very odd to hear a scholar dodge questions and say, "I'd prefer not to comment on that," and, "I dont like that [source] very much" every time anything contrary to her poisition is raised. Great interview Alex.
@joshualavender
@joshualavender Ай бұрын
I found that odd, too. She admits to "playing favorites." It's as if she's formed up her own orthodoxy for early Christianity, based on both the Gnostic Gospels and the New Testament. There are places in this video where she doesn't appear to be speaking as a scholar but as a believer, and I wonder whether for her there's any daylight between the two. Strange to see in a foundational interview meant to give us an "overview."
@newtonswig
@newtonswig Ай бұрын
She is against the sensationalisation of the Gnostic gospels. Her position is explicitly against some sources, and has to entail some ignoring of the most obviously wacky of the Dead Sea scrolls.
@pietervoogt
@pietervoogt Ай бұрын
I don't mind her moving between believe and scholarship. It adds some personal flavor.
@Zachary_Setzer
@Zachary_Setzer Ай бұрын
@@newtonswig Wanting to avoid sensationalizing them is one thing. Denying they contain certain ideas and then hand-waving away evidence to the contrary is something else. Seems like anything she doesn't like isn't "real" gnosticism. It has kind of a "that's not real socialism" feel to it.
@Zachary_Setzer
@Zachary_Setzer Ай бұрын
@@pietervoogt Nothing wrong with it until it becomes unclear which hat you're wearing.
@thomasthomasphilp4393
@thomasthomasphilp4393 29 күн бұрын
In Kerala, India we believe that St. Thomas came to India in AD 52.
@thomasjoseph1873
@thomasjoseph1873 13 күн бұрын
👇🏾What to believe to live eternally 👇🏾 1 Cori 15:1 - 4 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you 🌹the gospel which I preached unto you, 🌹which also ye have received, and 🌹wherein ye stand;15:2 🌹By which also ye are saved, 🌹if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.15:3 🌹For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures;15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING to the scriptures: Hello: 👉🏾Secure your Salvation eternally by faith alone, by trusting in Christ Jesus' propitiational death, resurrection and the redemption of sins according to scripture on the Cross at Calvary by the Grace of God alone. Also confess it with your own mouth according to Rom 10:9-11 👉🏾10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Please watch once 👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾👇🏾 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hK9-nLOLrtrOhGQ.htmlsi=BqBh43pKkIkJ1-GZ For further details: visit 👇🏾 thegateministries.net God in His foreknowledge qualified Paul in advance, and appointed him from heavenlies to be His special ambassador to gentiles like 3:05 Moses to Jews and enabled him to lay foundation of the mystical 'Body of Christ' - the only and living Church -👇🏾👇🏾 1 Cori 3:10 🌹According to the grace of God 🌹which is given 👉🏾unto me, 🌹as a wise masterbuilder, 🌹I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 🌹For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, 🌹which is Jesus Christ. ( formed out of 'redeemed, by the blood of Christ' by believing & trusting in the propitiational death, resurrection of Christ by faith alone by grace of God alone) 👇🏾 1 Cori 3:10 🌹According to the grace of God 🌹which is given unto me, 🌹as a wise masterbuilder, 🌹I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 🌹For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, 🌹which is Jesus Christ. God bless🙏🏾❤️
@juditrotter5176
@juditrotter5176 11 күн бұрын
Deepok Chopra included descriptions of his growing up there and the Christian denomination unique in that locale. This was in one of his early books.
@A_Stereotypical_Guy
@A_Stereotypical_Guy 8 күн бұрын
So it was Thomas and not Christ himself?
@thomasthomasphilp4393
@thomasthomasphilp4393 8 күн бұрын
@@A_Stereotypical_Guy We are called Thomas Christians
@A_Stereotypical_Guy
@A_Stereotypical_Guy 8 күн бұрын
@@thomasthomasphilp4393 I was asking because I believe I have heard of some oral traditions in India that say Christ came and ministered there long after his supposed crucifixion.
@jacquelinelucien1572
@jacquelinelucien1572 23 күн бұрын
I found this discussion extremely fascinating; it resonated with some of my own thoughts about religions and Bible texts. I have listened to it ten times, and each time I go back, I discover another gem. One takeaway: I feel the first trinity is a mother, father, and son, not a father, son, and a spirit.
@joshua9449
@joshua9449 10 күн бұрын
Read the two chapters they quote from the actual Bible and see how honest they are with the context of the verses they quote. Straight from the father (or mother, who cares? Point is, it’s a spirit) of lies.
@rahelkamber4839
@rahelkamber4839 7 күн бұрын
I find her contributions so enriching for my Christian faith! And it makes so much sense, that the male disciples thought, that there should not be any female disciples, and that the Roman Catholic Church suppressed the knowledge of female disciples.
@blossom357
@blossom357 Ай бұрын
The thumbnail got me hyped for a split second, did Alex get an interview with THE Jesus Christ? lol
@butter_nut1817
@butter_nut1817 Ай бұрын
Doubt it would be his first stop after coming to earth again but you never know
@Henok-qn6nc
@Henok-qn6nc Ай бұрын
Lmao
@eprd313
@eprd313 Ай бұрын
​​@@butter_nut1817 he'd most probably be murdered by Evangelicals in the US as soon as he said that they are the new pharisees, but we know no one's coming back from the dead after 2000 years of a failed promise.
@SamoaVsEverybody814
@SamoaVsEverybody814 Ай бұрын
The state of Christianity: 💩 Jesus: This. 🤬
@patrickdeoliveira6434
@patrickdeoliveira6434 Ай бұрын
​@@butter_nut1817You're right, Lex would get him first
@Fernando-ek8jp
@Fernando-ek8jp Ай бұрын
Imagine a teacher saying: "I'm going to explicitly try and teach a group of students so they don't understand, then select a smaller group to teach them properly" That is different from: "They aren't at the level that would be able to understand, so I have to dumb it down for them to get the basics. You're more advanced so I can go more in depth"
@RanEncounter
@RanEncounter Ай бұрын
I get what you are saying and mostly agree, but there is a kernel of truth to the original claim. You cannot teach calculus to the average first grader. You have to start at the basics. And yes you as a teachers have to adapt your teachings to the level of the students even if they are a group. Again I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a kernel of truth in what she is saying. I think she is using this fact as a defense.
@bobbabai
@bobbabai Ай бұрын
Artificially crafted mystery and conspiracy. People love that shit.
@Fernando-ek8jp
@Fernando-ek8jp Ай бұрын
@@RanEncounter Again, that's different. The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood. Sure, I wouldn't teach calculus to a first grader, I would teach them first grade math that they would understand. The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems. The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you.
@Tom_Fuckery
@Tom_Fuckery Ай бұрын
@@RanEncounter Or listen to the kid for once when they can say they can see and understand something and not swat away their funny way of describing the answer 4 units ahead of the lesson
@RanEncounter
@RanEncounter Ай бұрын
@@Fernando-ek8jp Look you seem to have taken this totally different than what I actually wrote. You seem to be too eager to have a debate. "Again, that's different." Yes that is why I said that there was a kernel of truth in what she said. "The claim is that Jesus spoke in ways meant to be misunderstood." Yes this is the ideas of a person who has for years had to bend their mind to religion to make it make sense. I was just pointing out where this kind of thinking originates and how she does not see it as a problem any more. "The equivalent would be for me to give text math problems to a group of first graders, and then I took aside a handful of them so I could explain how to solve the problems." I literally agreed! Is really a kernel of truth so hard to understand? Do you not understand what I said at all? "The "secret" teachings, in the gospels at least, were: Here's a parable that will leave most of the listeners confused (but don't worry, that's on purpose) , but I'll explain it to a few of you." Yes. I literally agree. Sigh. Do you not understand that how she has in her mind changed the kernel of truth as I said it to what is in the gospels because of her beliefs?
@kevinmccabe9188
@kevinmccabe9188 14 күн бұрын
What an incredible conversation. That woman is so learned and fascinating. Great post!
@pedmole5
@pedmole5 29 күн бұрын
Great interview, very interesting topic and speaker. (P.S: commentors be grateful for the podcast guest) I notice some people complain about her not wishing to speak on certain topics. Bear in mind, her enthusiasm for the topic might not stem from the same place as yours, and that different angle for her curiosity is likely to be why she's dived so deep into these texts.
@tanausu7
@tanausu7 Ай бұрын
Unfortunate that she says she’s only interested in text that is ‘spiritually worthwhile’ showing a biased perspective to fit her need for spirituality instead of being a champion for truth and accuracy in historical texts
@Si_Mondo
@Si_Mondo Ай бұрын
If she was for historical accuracy, she wouldn't ascribe to Gnosticism 😂
@tanausu7
@tanausu7 Ай бұрын
@@Si_Mondo of course that’s the whole point of theology scholars, unless they’re atheists, they lean towards confirmation bias
@tanausu7
@tanausu7 Ай бұрын
@@Si_Mondo look at francesca stavrakopoulou
@achillez16
@achillez16 Ай бұрын
Could you expand on why you think the 4 that were selected are more historically accurate?
@tanausu7
@tanausu7 Ай бұрын
@@Si_Mondo that’s the point that there’s confirmation bias by theology scholars, that prioritise belief over historical accuracy of events or information in texts. Pick and choose to fit their narratives. Check out the work of Francesca Stavrakopoulou. 😉
@Leaga
@Leaga Ай бұрын
"I'll speak on him in a moment" is a gangster ass way of saying "I cant remember the name right now but I will in a minute." Gotta respect that scholarly confidence.
@exoplanet11
@exoplanet11 Ай бұрын
Yes, and I"m sure she is kicking herself for forgetting the name of that other scholar. But it is truly remarkable the command of the material this 81 year old scholar has. I'm grateful for her compassion in being willing to share it with us.
@cwellik805
@cwellik805 Ай бұрын
I only hope to have the faculties Dr Pagels has in her 80’s. I’m 77 and can relate to very familiar names I suddenly can’t remember at the moment.
@philm7758
@philm7758 26 күн бұрын
@@cwellik805 I'm 35 and have the same problem (and same hope) 😅
@juliekongs4856
@juliekongs4856 17 күн бұрын
But it’s not necessary to call her out in this, even in a “clever” gangster ass way.
@sabinadonofrio8863
@sabinadonofrio8863 16 күн бұрын
This is one awesome lady. Unique in her style and point of view. She wants to cover what she feels is important for us to understand.🎉🎉🎉 Excellent Lady 💝
@chadwood1975
@chadwood1975 18 күн бұрын
Mr. O'Connor and Mrs. Dr. Pagels, job well done. Enjoyed your conversation on many levels. It was intellectual, spiritually and emotionally fulfilling.
@Rathe6
@Rathe6 Ай бұрын
I struggle with the lack of time spent on why the original church fathers felt the way they did about these texts. She makes it all feel very arbitrary. It seems apt to subject these texts to some textual criticism and dig in to why they were discarded.
@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1
@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 Ай бұрын
Yeah. These were the Scientologists of their day.
@MasterofLightning
@MasterofLightning 25 күн бұрын
There were councils held to bring the people of faith together to decide on what was the truth. The most split opinions were on more vague theological ideas (e.g. is God three persons or three natures - one or three, etc.). Damn-near nobody believed the Gnostic beliefs. Same thing with these "banned" gospels. They weren't banned. They were essentially fan fiction. People always point to the most sane things from the heretical texts while ignoring the completely insane parts that obviously invalidate them. A KZfaqr named Wendigoon did a video on them that was really good and entertaining.
@Thedeepseanomad
@Thedeepseanomad Ай бұрын
She comes across as a believer who gets out of her comfort zone when demiurg and weird named realms come up.
@swolejeezy2603
@swolejeezy2603 Ай бұрын
I’d get out of my comfort zone too if I was a believer, but it just seems weird to hear from such a credentialed professional
@Neognostic-pk5wu
@Neognostic-pk5wu Ай бұрын
​@@swolejeezy2603well, agnostic or otherwise, the idea of the demiurg at least provides a better explanation for the Paradox of Empiricus than anything i've heard from a more traditional Christian apologist.
@Orikon25
@Orikon25 23 күн бұрын
Precisely, that's what people don't get. She's a believer, but her scholarly experience forced her to be open to the idea of Christian teachings beyond the Orthodox, and she fully recognizes how Church fucked up the entire religion... but the "alternate" cosmology is outside of her comfort zone. Which is a bit odd I admit, because things like the Demiurge and Sophia are very much part of the Valentinian systems that she defends. Nevertheless, she's still has a more open-minded and mature approach not just to Christianity but religion as a whole than 99% of the people out there, and for that she needs to be commended.
@TotallyNotKanye
@TotallyNotKanye 17 күн бұрын
Then you don’t get Gnosticism as you can only see the esoteric not the exoteric.
@hopepolenica971
@hopepolenica971 11 күн бұрын
As a spiritual person, I find it fascinating how many ppl take religion & religious text so literally. Unfortunately, many teachings have been corrupted by those that don’t truly understand. And the blind lead the blind. It may be helpful to view these teachings as a mirror of reality and how we ourselves act accordingly. And simply realize that our comprehension of these teachings is a direct reflection of our own state of mind (ie if you believe in a wrathful God). As we ourselves inflict judgement upon each other. One can only perceive to the limits of their evolution. Hopefully we can grow past wrathful and focus on love.
@JoAnnChamness-xf8lq
@JoAnnChamness-xf8lq 8 күн бұрын
I met Elaine Pagel in 1995 , she is wonderful. I use to mistake her for two other women in the community college who looked so much like her but their intellect wasn’t even close to our good lady Mrs. Elain PAGEL . .. . . What a Real Treat to listen to her here today . She captivated me back in the 1990’s and now here. Thank you 🙏 for this video .
@Actuary1776
@Actuary1776 Ай бұрын
She claims the gnostics are misappropriated as believing in a demiurge yet when challenged on that multiple times she dances around and says “I’d rather not comment on that”. Wtf.
@AudunWangen
@AudunWangen Ай бұрын
Obviously biased, and she basically admits to that. It's not really what I'm looking for. I'd rather hear from scholars that at least attempt to be objective.
@Si_Mondo
@Si_Mondo Ай бұрын
@@AudunWangen You won't get that from a Gnostic. Like trying to get truth out of a Freemason....
@wagnavian
@wagnavian Ай бұрын
elaine pagels is a modern gnostic, same heresy that irenaeus and the other church fathers debunked a thousand years ago already
@Actuary1776
@Actuary1776 Ай бұрын
@@AudunWangen It’s disappointing for sure, she’s supposedly an icon in her field.
@AudunWangen
@AudunWangen Ай бұрын
@@Actuary1776 She may have good reasons for ignoring certain parts and acknowledging others, but she's not doing herself any favors not to mention them. I don't know her or her work, but it seemed to me she was more interested in preaching than teaching. Not my cup of tea.
@AKAMustang
@AKAMustang Ай бұрын
Aww it's heart warming to see her eyes light up when you asked a sensible interesting question.
@devilishegg
@devilishegg Ай бұрын
I'm only 5 minutes in but I absolutely love the authentic joy Elaine has talking about the findings from 1945. It's so contagious, I love it. :)
@scottfarrar3463
@scottfarrar3463 Ай бұрын
There is also Nicodemus who met Jesus "at night" suggesting the secretive nature of the communications to be received.
@dahveed72
@dahveed72 Ай бұрын
Wonderful interview. Keep going dude
@ronwright6870
@ronwright6870 Ай бұрын
This is an incredible interview!
@GnosticInformant
@GnosticInformant Ай бұрын
Amazing interview Alex. Listening while I fly home from Florida.
@bargledargle7941
@bargledargle7941 Ай бұрын
What would you feel if Alex asked a question related to paprika specifically in this interview? Is there any possible way this could be related to paprika in any way without changing the subject?
@willard73
@willard73 Ай бұрын
Alex wants to explore the breadth of Gnosticism. Pagels wants to talk obout the Gospel of Thomas.
@matthewkopp2391
@matthewkopp2391 Ай бұрын
There are many other experts. Pagels was at one short period a fundamentalist who did not like many literalist doctrines, especially the „going to hell“ ideas which are not even Biblical. But texts like the Gospel of Thomas confirmed her spiritual sense of Christianity and a path to practice Christianity in a non-literal way. So there is a little bias but still a great scholar and I appreciate both her spiritual sense and her scholarship. A lot of what she writes is basically an apologetic defense for non-literalist interpretations and that there is very old tradition of it. There are other scholars such as mythicists who focus on other Gnostic texts to continue their critique of Christianity, who do go into the texts and interpretations that Pagels finds shallow. No doubt IMO the Marcionist literalists, probably inspired later literalist groups like the Bogomils and Cathars. I find their persecution by the Catholics horrendous but I would no more want to defend their interpretations than I would want to defend literalist Catholics or Protestants. For example. I read Pagels not just for good scholarship but because I too, appreciate that she opens up Christian spirituality.
@bargledargle7941
@bargledargle7941 Ай бұрын
@@matthewkopp2391 Look what you say is interesting, I am not particularly educated on theology or history. But I think she is missing the point and is wrong about calling the biblical God inferior. I am an atheist but I feel way more inspired from the old testament rather than those gnostic texts or new testament. I think it's a much more sensible God too if I were spiritual at all...
@matthewkopp2391
@matthewkopp2391 Ай бұрын
@@bargledargle7941she is not saying the Old Testament god is inferior she is saying that certain early Christians held that belief. She described Marcion for example who believed in the demiurge vs the transcendent God. But a similar distinction is made in the Old Testament. At times God is YHWH and spoken of in anthropomorphic terms and then other times God is described as transcendent and in non-anthropomorphic terms such as I am. There is a theme in the Old Testament as to what constitutes idolatry and the same obsession occurs with Plato who described the demiurge in more neutral terms versus a transcendent god. Early Christianity was infused with Platonism and some took the Plato demiurge idea as evil because of the evil in the world and the evil demonstrated by an Old Testament god. She is just describing different ideas that were around at the time.
@bargledargle7941
@bargledargle7941 Ай бұрын
@@matthewkopp2391 It's important you corrected me about this. I think the idea of "God of the old testament is evil or inferior" is extremely unattractive and spiritually poor.
@gaylerosenthal1828
@gaylerosenthal1828 Ай бұрын
@@matthewkopp2391 I am Jewish and she sounds like she wishes she were Jewish too. I am reading "A LIttle Boy in Search of God" by Isaac Bashevis Singer and he speaks of pantheistic ideas. They sound very similar.
@foxxcharmer
@foxxcharmer Ай бұрын
Her knowledge and wisdom is appreciated thank you for delivering this!!
@BrodieTV
@BrodieTV Ай бұрын
THE GOAT 🐐 ALEX O’CONNOR BACK AT IT AGAIN, I’ve learned so much from you my man, so grateful you’re around on KZfaq. LEGEND 🔥
@BillyBobs-zz5ol
@BillyBobs-zz5ol 29 күн бұрын
And what do u believe ?
@andiwestcott7187
@andiwestcott7187 Ай бұрын
Can't wait to see you in Atlanta!
@louisXiceyX
@louisXiceyX 24 күн бұрын
she was fucking adorable. her enthusiasm for this and energy was incredible: you can tell she really connects with this work in an intrinsic way. I appreciate that more than anything.
@doneasneakyonya
@doneasneakyonya 20 күн бұрын
Unless you bring up Samael/Yaldabaoth/Abraxas then she shuts down, dodges and dismisses.
@susiejoyk1287
@susiejoyk1287 19 күн бұрын
Totally NOT necessary to use the F word. You just used it for shock value. It takes away all credibility for anything else you say after that!!
@RitaDimarco-xx4tx
@RitaDimarco-xx4tx 15 күн бұрын
Agreed , swearing is from the devil
@johnellis414
@johnellis414 20 күн бұрын
This is real Christianity. A brilliant, enlightening interview of well directed questions and enlightened responses. Congratulations
@truthseeker-nv6ny
@truthseeker-nv6ny 17 күн бұрын
Just because gnostics don't exist anymore doesn't mean they're the real ones. It could be gnosticism was an innovation in the first place but died down in history but archaeologists found their texts in the 20th century
@robertd9965
@robertd9965 15 күн бұрын
Seems more anti-Christian to me, and apparently even those Christians at a time where there was no institution or "canon" saw it this way.
@mercy2351
@mercy2351 24 күн бұрын
Dr. Pagels is such an excellent scholar! Wonderful discussion!
@monoyamono
@monoyamono Ай бұрын
Man, Alex's face ,he looks kinda pissed, lol around 36 minutes after obviously being super enthusiastic and curious to speak about admittedly one of the most interesting texts, the Gospel of Judas, and the interviewee just does a cobra and goes back to the others. I totally felt that. I may be projecting but his usual "I'm listening face" doesn't not have such a frown. 😜
@smillstill
@smillstill Ай бұрын
He does the same thing when she flat out refuses to talk about the Sethian dark demiurge.
@TheRealShrike
@TheRealShrike Ай бұрын
Yeah, what was that all about? Such a strange refusal from her in an otherwise interesting interview. It. came across as really bizarre.
@smillstill
@smillstill Ай бұрын
@@TheRealShrike I think these iconic academic people are used to being able to give a presentation on what they want and not be told what to talk about. They just tour with a topical presentation and do the same one for a year or two. She's like 80, so maybe she doesn't remember anything else...
@mangleman25
@mangleman25 Ай бұрын
It's disappointing as hell as a listener too because the Gospel of Judas is the most interesting one of these texts. She just completely sidestepped talking about it for "muh spirituality", which is pretty irritating to hear coming from a scholar.
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb Ай бұрын
He smells witchy b.s.
@matthewbazeley2984
@matthewbazeley2984 Ай бұрын
I really enjoyed this video Alex , thank you
@Julia-hd6ts
@Julia-hd6ts 16 күн бұрын
Impressive interview, and was nice to see so much wisdom in a young person, being on par with the older one. Love it ❤
@varunbhati1083
@varunbhati1083 Ай бұрын
A lot of the times, when Alex releases his videos, I become a bit skeptical of whether it would be interesting to watch or not simply because he has been discussing on a wide variety of topics lately. However, I'm quite delighted to announce that once I start watching any of his videos, I become hooked and can't really stop watching. I reckon I've got to stop doubting his ability to produce excellent content. Edit - I have begun to truly admire how he seeks to learn new concepts. I wish I really had his enthusiasm to learn.
@codegeek98
@codegeek98 Ай бұрын
He is a stellar and practiced conversationalist who always works to bring out the best of his partner.
@varunbhati1083
@varunbhati1083 Ай бұрын
@codegeek98 Certainly! He has earned a name for not only a conversationist, but also for a great interviewer!
@j.paulpepper6110
@j.paulpepper6110 Ай бұрын
Wonderful to see Elaine on the podcast. I’ve been following her work for more than 20 years. Crucial insights on my spiritual journey. Thanks and cheers to you both.
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb Ай бұрын
"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie! She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
@jenniferabel2811
@jenniferabel2811 29 күн бұрын
Are you aware of her ever acknowledging/addressing "A Course in Miracles"? I recently discovered it and am thunderstruck by its quality. I noticed similarities to some gnostic teaching, and some of those who study it have referred to it as "Neo-gnostic." Edit: I've reviewed some part of work, on youtube and elsewhere, but I've yet to see any reference to ACIM.
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb 29 күн бұрын
@@jenniferabel2811 no
@christophermull
@christophermull Ай бұрын
Thank you for this interview. I've been fascinated with Gnosticism for a couple years now. I was raised Catholic and when I got older, I began to have many questions. The teaching of Christianity never really added up but when I began to study Gnosticism it began to all come together. These teachings tied up a lot of loose ends. It makes it all more believable. Although I don't know if I'll ever have complete faith.
@metagalaxy-go-the-distance
@metagalaxy-go-the-distance 22 күн бұрын
They are filled with Greek philosophy which differs from disciples which is mainly based Jewish and old testament
@dorothy8851
@dorothy8851 11 күн бұрын
look up the Essenes. A Jewish sect Jesus was part of. They regarded woman equal to man and had rituals like baptism. Aaron Abke talks about them quite often.
@winterphilosophy3900
@winterphilosophy3900 Ай бұрын
A parable can be seen as a first explanation. First explanations will almost always be so simplified that they give answers contradicting the later conclusion.
@BZ007
@BZ007 16 күн бұрын
What a wonderful session...do more with her!! Keep going keep going. I hope you have more episodes with her.
@flibflob69
@flibflob69 26 күн бұрын
Jesus is real I promise
@ikeiampossible9502
@ikeiampossible9502 15 күн бұрын
True. I did my research. Jesus is real. Politics mess everything up😂
@Jaycub_Hess
@Jaycub_Hess 15 күн бұрын
I’ll take that to the bank
@Hj61S827
@Hj61S827 15 күн бұрын
Real yes, God no.
@Legendwill876
@Legendwill876 14 күн бұрын
Yeshua the Messiah is real, jesus was created by roman catholic
@Zapotec-Tribe-Mexica
@Zapotec-Tribe-Mexica 13 күн бұрын
​@@Hj61S827I've been dead, and He is very much a part of The Most High ABBA YAH, YAHshua Christ (there weren't e's either) Holy Spirit was there, but I wasn't able to see Everything or I wouldn't be able to come back...
@user-bt8kn6rz8j
@user-bt8kn6rz8j 19 күн бұрын
Hello Alex, I am the author of 'The Zen of Jesus Christ' (paperback published on Kindle/ Amazon in 2016) in which I interpret the Gospel of Thomas through the lens of Zen Buddhism. I sent Professor Pagels a copy of my book while she was at Princeton and she graciously sent me back a hand-written note of encouragement in which she admits the remarkable similarity between the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas and those of Buddhism in general and Zen in particular. She is very passionate and knowledgeable, I greatly admire her and have read her books. Of course she is familiar with Zen Buddhism but it is not her area of expertise, which is the early history of Judeo-Christianity. It is my position that Zen Buddhism provides the key to unlocking a profound understanding of the truths within the sayings of the Gospel of Thomas. In short, Jesus was a Buddha, a Bodhisattva, which is to say a Human Angel, an Enlightened Being. Namu Dai Bosa, Namu Dai Bosatsu! Carlos O. Santacruz 🙏
@Fullmoonrisingtarot
@Fullmoonrisingtarot 16 күн бұрын
Can u recommend a basic book on the basics of zen ? I’d like to learn more of this philosophy and if it’s the same as Buddhism or a different flavor of Buddhism?by by Basic I mean, Short and to the point?😂
@user-bt8kn6rz8j
@user-bt8kn6rz8j 15 күн бұрын
@@Fullmoonrisingtarot Hello Tarot, I would recommend 'Zen Flesh, Zen Bones' by Paul Reps & Nyogen Senzaki. It's a great place to start. Zen is generally the result of the collision of Buddhism and Taoism when Buddhism spread from India to China. Then, I would suggest 'Selected Writings on Zen Buddhism' by D.T. Suzuki, culled from his 3 volumes of essays, which are more in-depth. This should be more than enough for you to begin exploring... Happy Hunting! Carlos O. Santacruz
@Fullmoonrisingtarot
@Fullmoonrisingtarot 15 күн бұрын
@@user-bt8kn6rz8j thank you so very much for all the helpful information!!
@ohwhen7775
@ohwhen7775 15 күн бұрын
The amount of times I've said "Jesus was an atheist" over the years and had my comments deleted by _right_ leaning KZfaqrs 😂It will be interesting to see if this takes off in the future as the new norm for understanding more about what he potentially meant by his teachings.
@sathiahalya3003
@sathiahalya3003 15 күн бұрын
Biochemistry determines human nature. Psychology understands human nature.
@bradrcool
@bradrcool Ай бұрын
Ahhh Elaine Pagels!! She's great!!! She is an excellent guest! Thanks for a great conversion
@phoebeberlet4633
@phoebeberlet4633 Ай бұрын
THIS IS MY DREAM COLLAB. I love Elaine Pagels so so much!!
@jojones4685
@jojones4685 Ай бұрын
I love Elaine Pagels, she's such a well spoken and fascinating scholar
@jacobia7093
@jacobia7093 Ай бұрын
Bravo and thank you, Alex and Elaine 🙏🤗
@tombrown5527
@tombrown5527 11 күн бұрын
Excellent interview! Thank you.
@allisongreen1517
@allisongreen1517 Ай бұрын
Loved this interview! 10/10
@MythVisionPodcast
@MythVisionPodcast Ай бұрын
Dr. Pagels is an amazing person! Great catch Alex.
@John-sl3lu
@John-sl3lu Ай бұрын
🙏🙏🙏
@raya.p.l5919
@raya.p.l5919 Ай бұрын
Gift for all even fallen angels 💞 j e s u s energy wash Enjoy
@NuanceOverDogma
@NuanceOverDogma Ай бұрын
Um no, she’s way off base, the parables were meant to explain things in simpler terms for the general public who were mostly the lower class can relate to. Saying that Jesus didn’t want them to understand what he was teaching is utterly ridiculous. Jesus later says more will understand when the Holy Spirit arrives after His death. Everyone who has basic understanding of the New Testament knows this yet she misconstrues this to fit her narrative.
@cosme_fulanito695
@cosme_fulanito695 Ай бұрын
Low Bar Bill doesn't agree! He can name 20 better scholars!
@fukpoeslaw3613
@fukpoeslaw3613 Ай бұрын
​@@NuanceOverDogma But why would Jesus say: "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" ? It's like Jesus didn't feel like forgiving them, so strange.
@alphanumericskeptic
@alphanumericskeptic Ай бұрын
A very interesting interview. I loved hearing Elaine Pagels share her knowledge. Thank you Alex!
@lisaclausen8304
@lisaclausen8304 29 күн бұрын
Cant wait to see her again in upcoming interviews!!!!
@Watcher02260
@Watcher02260 15 күн бұрын
Very interesting conversation.
@tezzymai5076
@tezzymai5076 28 күн бұрын
What an interesting subject and guest! So much went over my head but her passion for the subject made it quite inspiring, looking forward to the future discussions
@siddharthamishra1999
@siddharthamishra1999 Ай бұрын
Interesting discussion! I know that the title's a bit too long already, but I feel like you should include the guest's name in the title as you have with (almost?) all other guests
@user-oi8hk8xt6b
@user-oi8hk8xt6b Ай бұрын
My older brother handed me Pagels' The Gnostic Gospels in the mid-80s, not so long after its publication. The discovery of these documents is fascinating, and Pagels' take on them is interesting. A great read.
@hutdweller7430
@hutdweller7430 12 күн бұрын
It's ironic that in Greek Gnostic means KNOWN. Maybe they're called Gnostic because they knew about them and ditched them anyways.
@eftsoulpath333
@eftsoulpath333 4 күн бұрын
Excellent information. It’s about time. Thank you.❤
@jshauns
@jshauns Ай бұрын
This will be excellent!
@steveymoon
@steveymoon Ай бұрын
Absolutely fascinating episode. Thank you, both.
@stephencalmelet9454
@stephencalmelet9454 14 сағат бұрын
This was a wonderful podcast. Thank you for the class you delivered though your work and letting her speak on the topic.
@Banshee409
@Banshee409 19 күн бұрын
I’ve never encountered here expertise or thought, but I just bought her book. So bummed I didn’t find out about her sooner but can’t wait to read it. Such an interesting source.
@shinetah360
@shinetah360 Ай бұрын
Another great guest you have here Alex 👌🏾keep it up 👏🏾
@aaroncalloway2898
@aaroncalloway2898 Ай бұрын
I'm sure she's brilliant, but it seems that she is fairly uncritical of the text, even going so far to affirm that the people who produced the texts are those whose name's the text have been given.
@debblouin
@debblouin Ай бұрын
Yeah, something progressive biblical critics don’t do for the gospels.
@toonyandfriends1915
@toonyandfriends1915 Ай бұрын
she says so but she probably knows it's just tradition
@swolejeezy2603
@swolejeezy2603 Ай бұрын
@@toonyandfriends1915Yeah I think if Alex really pressed her she’d admit she doesn’t actually think Thomas or Philip wrote the gospels attributed to them
@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1
@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 Ай бұрын
Duh. She's only interested in undermining Christianity, not truth
@swolejeezy2603
@swolejeezy2603 Ай бұрын
@@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 She is quite clearly a Christian. I don’t doubt you and her disagree over details but she is a Christian all the same
@seanryan471
@seanryan471 29 күн бұрын
This is an incredible interview for a skeptic by a skeptic. I am interested in her perspective, but I wouldn't have gotten it anywhere else. This was done respectfully. Thank you.
@hedger1118
@hedger1118 14 күн бұрын
Thank you for fascinating conversation! ❤
@user-soon300
@user-soon300 Ай бұрын
I'm so excited to watch this video ❤ thank you
@stephenbyrneireland
@stephenbyrneireland Ай бұрын
Great stuff, Alex. I love this road you are taking. I'm envisioning many conversations between you and Derek of Mythvision down the line.
@ArborProTriCities
@ArborProTriCities 12 күн бұрын
Wow. I have these texts about halfway through. No matter your beliefs to hear the words of men: hundreds of years back that is truly an amazing thing.
@Fatheosphere
@Fatheosphere Ай бұрын
Eyeopening conversation
@Rydonattelo
@Rydonattelo Ай бұрын
It's fantastic to see such a fantastic atheist thinker really enjoying discussing Christian history and theology. I was an atheist myself most of my life. Its so wonderful to see that people who don't believe in the supernatural elements still seeing value in the philosophy. That's how I switched teams originally. If you enjoy this you would also enjoy ESOTERICA who Alex had on last week and Filip over at th channel LETS TALK RELIGION that covers mysticism in a similar way to this , especially Sufi mysticism but Christian and Jewish also. I think Alex is absolutely wonderful.
@Williamsdshs11
@Williamsdshs11 Ай бұрын
Wow, Elaine Pagels is a beautiful person. Thanks for the introduction to her and her work. You're doing God's work, Mr. O'Connor.
@cellerdoor2954
@cellerdoor2954 22 күн бұрын
They made more since to me than the whole bible.they speak to my soul as truth and wisdom ans power❤No fancy lights or shiny lights needed just pure gold and the word of GOD❤
@tomjordan5832
@tomjordan5832 14 күн бұрын
Wonderful video......Thank You !
@joemedley195
@joemedley195 Ай бұрын
I’d heard that Pagels was ill and might not make it. I’m glad to see her up and around again.
@learnedhand8559
@learnedhand8559 19 күн бұрын
James Tabor wrote a fascinating book called the Jesus Dynasty that talks about these gospels. Very interesting read.
@grantwhitley6857
@grantwhitley6857 Ай бұрын
I’m coming to see you in Atlanta !
@MarshallVogel-ky2rd
@MarshallVogel-ky2rd 15 күн бұрын
Imagine reading two different books and saying one of the two determined the outcome of the other...
@this_alec
@this_alec Ай бұрын
“So that they will not understand” reminds me of the paradoxical pointing-out instructions of Zen and Tibetan Dzogchen Buddhism. So fascinating. We have been given such a narrow view of Christianity for thousands of years. In the light of intellectual investigation, something much deeper and (in my opinion) wiser emerges.
@Fernando-ek8jp
@Fernando-ek8jp Ай бұрын
Which is?
@this_alec
@this_alec Ай бұрын
@@Fernando-ek8jp An approach to spirituality which is much less preoccupied with doctrine than it is an experiential, integrated way of being in the world. Seeing the Divine as the “ground of being,” the mystery of the universe, rather than a petty God with tribalistic concerns. I think that might have been what Jesus meant by the “Kingdom.” Might just be wishful thinking, though. That being said, these are all very mystical ways of talking about what we know by way of Natural Science. The universe is vast and we are a small part of it. That’s enough for me. :)
@Fernando-ek8jp
@Fernando-ek8jp Ай бұрын
@@this_alec I may be completely misunderstanding, but the value I get from your response is basically the admission that we can't really be sure about everything so why not just accept that and stop pretending like we do, there's loads to learn out there.
@this_alec
@this_alec Ай бұрын
@@Fernando-ek8jp Certainly not what I meant :)
@Fernando-ek8jp
@Fernando-ek8jp Ай бұрын
@@this_alec Then I'm still not understanding what you meant. Maybe you're just applying the principle of speaking in ways explicitly meant to hide their meaning?
@dalegoralsky3726
@dalegoralsky3726 Ай бұрын
You should interview David Bentley Hart. So much to talk about.
@st.mephisto8564
@st.mephisto8564 Ай бұрын
This!
@AnthonyCasadonte
@AnthonyCasadonte Ай бұрын
Couldn’t agree more
@Arthur.404
@Arthur.404 26 күн бұрын
I was about to say just that.
@ronrg9518
@ronrg9518 15 күн бұрын
Fascinating conversation thank you !
@jerryactrik1901
@jerryactrik1901 6 күн бұрын
Fantastic episode. You can tell she has so much more knowledge to share.
@hedvigkarpati7834
@hedvigkarpati7834 Ай бұрын
Jesus did not have some secret teaching that contradicted His public teaching. The secret teaching was just the explanation of His public teaching. That's why immediately after He talks about the knowledge being given only to them, He explains the parable he has just told. He, in my opinion, talked in parables, so only those would understand it, who wanted to understand it. Those who didn't "close their eyes" on purpose. So they would not have the excuse that they didn't hear the truth. They heard the truth, and if they cared to understand it, Jesus would have explained it to them. But their hearts were hardened. Just like today. People's hearts are hardened and they don't want to hear the truth. They rather believe any made up complicated stories and explanations instead of the truth that is much less complicated.
@Sphere723
@Sphere723 Ай бұрын
How do you know? He very well could have. It was a common religous practice in the Roman world of the time.
@hedvigkarpati7834
@hedvigkarpati7834 Ай бұрын
@@Sphere723 Just because some people did something, it doesn't mean that everyone did it. And Jesus said elsewhere that "I spoke openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the temple whither the Jews always resort, and in secret have I said nothing" And the fact that He said that they "closed their eyes" means that they did't see the truth because they didn't want to see it, not because Jesus hid it from them. The truth was there before them, and they could have understood it, if they wanted to, but they didn't want to, because their hearts were hardened.
@Theslavedrivers
@Theslavedrivers 29 күн бұрын
Best guest possible for this subject.
@davidcrowley1951
@davidcrowley1951 18 күн бұрын
Yes. The secret teachings of Christ. Everyone else got it wrong but we, the self-anointed, speak for God. You can only get the truth from us.
@adritachanda
@adritachanda 29 күн бұрын
brilliant as always
@nails8647
@nails8647 Ай бұрын
What a delightful interviewee, you can tell how passionate she is about her work-- always makes for a lively discussion. Wonderful as always Alex!
@andyokus5735
@andyokus5735 16 күн бұрын
I had a miserable traumatized childhood. At age 14 I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. My entire being was transformed instantly. God revealed Himself to me in all His Omnipresence. I was healed from my childhood hate and abuse. But I didn't even know what the Bible was. It was when I joined this Jesus Freak cult that I began to be abused by these so-called born again Christian hypocrites. A long time went by and I lost my faith and went bad in life. When I got my faith back I still had many doubts as I was no longer a " funnymentalist ". If anything I am a mystical follower of Jesus Christ, the Christos; the Savior of this world. I would love to study with this lady.
@Love77712
@Love77712 13 күн бұрын
He was a teacher. Not a savior. Many enlightened beings have came to this planet to teach people how to behave. He, like many other ascended masters help people on this side. The best place to look for information is inside of yourself. It's all there. It's not learning..it's remembering ❤
@MommyAdriKat
@MommyAdriKat 15 күн бұрын
I respect your output of content and respect you arent worrisome to question what you clame as fact...
@jakehudson1665
@jakehudson1665 4 күн бұрын
I also feel Alex was amazing in his performance as a professional listener. I think the reason he may have come across looking concerned is because he was thinking deeply about the conversation.
@TheLeonhamm
@TheLeonhamm Ай бұрын
The short answer - and the best - is : fairly late writings (noted at a late date, if not actually written later than the last of the texts accepted as of apostolic origin), i.e. those that did not make it into the Catholic canon (list) of texts used for the Liturgies. Many of the better types (and those frequently used in Catholic circles) are still found in the listings associated with The Fathers, or used in various traditions .. e.g. of scholarly or pastoral use, The Protoevangelium of James, The Acts of Paul and Thecla, The Gospel and Acts of Thomas, others are more like modern popular 'novels' of the 'Ben Hur' or 'The Robe' types, as in The Assumption, Letter of Pontius Pilate, Apocalypse of Moses, etc. These and other early Christian texts - specifically or incidentally not included in the term 'all scripture' can be found online (free) at New Advent - Catholic Encyclopedia - Fathers. These include some texts that could have made it into the Canon of the Catholic Holy Bible, 1 Clement, Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Liturgy of James, Didache .. but were not sufficiently widely known, used, or listed (the current Apocalypse in the Catholic list of Scripture very nearly did not make it into the list for the same reasons, but familiarity in some the oldest or most respect 'Sees' like Rome, Alexandria, Antioch seem to have won the day, and Hebrews also had a bit of bumpy ride, along with 2 Peter and Jude). The division of Gnostic (mystical, sectarian, or occult knowledge) and Catholic (creedal, liturgical, common use) types was not always as clear-cut as history (or rather as historians) may like to present it; as present within the Catholic Church until the Reformation, i.e. the Saints' Lives (Perpetua and Felicity, Barlaam and Josephat, Sergius and Bacchus, Magdelene, Nicholas or George or Martin or Monica), the mystics (Novatian's Concerning the Trinity, Gertrude of Helfta's 'Insinuationes divinae pietatis', Julian of Norwich 'Revelations of Divine Love'); and even today .. requiring approval of the local Ordinary, the Holy Office (now a Dicastery), or a reigning Sovereign Pontiff (aka the Pope, cf the slightly dubious 'Divine Mercy' devotion of Faustina Kowalaska) .. and such like .... Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o)
@Kabster_the_Lime
@Kabster_the_Lime Ай бұрын
I really like this! Academics need more outlets for what they find, and so for you to platform them are great :D
@exsubsailor547
@exsubsailor547 7 күн бұрын
When you read or listen to the many testimonials of the people who have experienced NDE's this all makes sense. Our orgin is the light, we are all one. Everything is from and part of the light! I thurally enjoyed this video.
@koulamused
@koulamused Ай бұрын
I’m currently re reading the new revised edition of The Nag Hammadi Library after over 20 years. Even more fascinating.
@eleni8920
@eleni8920 Ай бұрын
Wow. This was a beautiful discussion.
@Sveccha93
@Sveccha93 Ай бұрын
Such a cool and passionate scholar! Been loving her work for decades. What a privilege to live in the online age!
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb Ай бұрын
"The gnostic gospels don't contradict the canonical gospels"--well that's a lie! She's still trying to convince herself the gnostic gospels are authentic secret teachings of Jesus!!!!!😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
@Sveccha93
@Sveccha93 Ай бұрын
@@James-ll3jb I really don’t think so. I sense you may be deaf to nuance. Do you have strong pre existing beliefs about the reality behind the gospels?
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb Ай бұрын
@@Sveccha93 Not particularly. I have 2 advanced degrees in this stuff and have more than once nabbed Ehrman lying on the facts. It has nothing to do with "nuance." The yoyo for years denied Jesus thought himself divine until recently shown a Marcan passage confirming the opposite. The poor s.o.b. wasn't even able to acknowkedge his error! (And his rationale for disbelieving the Resurrection belong in logical comedy whether you believe in it or not!)
@Sveccha93
@Sveccha93 Ай бұрын
@@James-ll3jb no offense, but yours are not the words of a serious person, right or wrong. I see nothing but transparent ideology and emotion. Certainly Bart and Elaine get things wrong, but your dismissiveness is empty defensiveness. Yawn. Good luck to you.
@James-ll3jb
@James-ll3jb Ай бұрын
@@Sveccha93 I know overt lying when I see it. And good luck to you, sir lol
@joannware6228
@joannware6228 Ай бұрын
"The Church refuses to explain sin away or make excuses for it or call it by another name. " Bishop Robert Barron
@user-ol9gz1wp1b
@user-ol9gz1wp1b 11 күн бұрын
This is fascinating. Thankyou.
@thezieg
@thezieg Ай бұрын
Excellent guest. Dr Pagels is an outstanding scholar and speaker and you interacted with her perfectly.
@johnwheeler3071
@johnwheeler3071 Ай бұрын
I agree. Alex didn't let her off the hook when she claimed the God of the Orthodox interpretation was just made up by Irenaeus and Marcion but is actually within the texts that she espouses. Elaine is very sneaky like Jordan Peterson.
@seventeenthchild655
@seventeenthchild655 Ай бұрын
This was absolutely fascinating. She is amazing. Thank you for posting this interview.. ..just amazing.
@janelliot5643
@janelliot5643 10 күн бұрын
Thank you. This was fascinating
@cynthiao.543
@cynthiao.543 5 сағат бұрын
Please put your guests’ names on the program titles…..Elaine Pagels certainly deserves that.
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