"supplements"

We can sit here and debate or critique Westside technique all day, the truth is that there is something about THAT gym, that attitude, that atmosphere that is just different and savage compared to perhaps any other in this country. I don't think Westside method is for everyone, especially not raw lifters. However, I think anyone who trains at Westside or follows Westside philosophy will absolutely improve in whatever they are doing. That's really the key Westside brings to the table, and that is backed up by testimony from everyone who ever trained there, even if they didn't subscribe to everything Louie said. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, Wenning, Efferding, JM Blakely, and many other greatly respected coaches and powerlifters all agree about one thing when it comes to Westside... it brings out the absolute BEST in you, and the atmosphere pushes you beyond what you thought possible. There have been many guys who trained there who took the principles they acquired and became very successful coaches or businessmen in their own right. I named a few of those guys above. There's MORE to Westside than the method. That's the real truth of it.

I get the feeling from watching this that Chad truly hates Westside, while Dr. Mike really doesn't mind it.

That was really interesting. It felt more like 15 minutes to me - that's what I like in your videos. The info is put together in a very approachable way.

Brandon Lilly got butt hurt as fuck over this video. He went on record to say that he couldn't even squat 600 pounds raw after he took his gear off and left westside.

I think conjugate training can absolutely work for raw lifters provided you do the exercises that promote raw lifting. I don't know how much training Louie ever did with raw competitor other than with that SHW who was removed from membership due to not being able to be there enough - but the guy wasn't there long enough to see what he could do under that system and was already strong when he got there. I am friends with a guy who trained there and he has told me that just because the day calls for ME or DE does not mean it always ends up that way. If you're beat up, ME is not gonna happen. There's a lot of rehab work going on as well. Lots of people critique based on what info is out there, but remember, its only a template or guide. Louie isn't dumb. If he was gonna train raw competitors, it certainly would be different exercises and minor changes in percentages, sets, reps, etc, but the methods and theory would remain the same.

Love Louie and I do ''conjugate'' my way and they work. But I never run westside system because I compete raw. Id run a 6 weeks cycle peak program for meet, but Id never done westside peak cycle, like most people say raw lifters need to get used to the movement. Like what Ed Coan say stick to what ever works! Great video guys! (Y)

juggernaut training systems I appreciate the info y'all share and will apply it to my training keep up the good work

spot on chad!!! I'm a raw squatter but I use box squats as an accessory. free squatting is no issue I'm told I squat too deep lol but box squats for me are to really hit hips and abductors. love the content man

Things are constantly changing at Westside, over the last year I have seen more 5x5 and 6x6s on dynamic effort lower day done on the mens side than I have seen of the old 8x2 speed squats. Same on bench, tons more volume and things are constantly changing. I coach mostly raw lifters and I agree we need a ton more raw volume free squat work. I took some stuff from Jesse Norris' program and added it to what I was taught at Westside years ago and that's how we do things now.. We add in extra days after the main days all the time (mostly a front squat day). So do I program "Westside"..I guess not.Maybe your doctor friend trained WS wrong when he tried it. Ask Chuck V is there is sandbagging at Westside lol

Well, first of all, this did seem like a rather neutral video and not just a long rant of westside bashing, so I really do appreciate that. Now, I won't go into the details of everything but just say some general stuff because referring to it all would take forever. On thing is the definition of westside. I can't very well know all the sources but to my understanding Louie has always talked about individuality in choice of exercises as well as individual weaknesses and so on. And while they rather largely use the same template, some guys at Westside, like some bench only guys, have strayed away from that template. What I am trying to say is that Westside in itself is done in a way that worked for the guys there rather similarly most of the time BUT imo it is still Westside, if some changes are made because making those changes is in the nature of the programme. It's not just something that you should blindly follow but rather constantly think about. Now I myself am not a world class lifter. I would say that at my best (before my recent injury) I was fairly strong on a national level, competing in the middleweights as a natty, junior RAW lifter. So I am certainly not among the best by any means but it's safe to say that I've been around the block and tried some things. In terms of hypertrophy, once I started using the concurrent method, I (over a few years) really blew up in strength and size compared to where I was before. Until my injury I also made rather steady improvements every year. If I compared myself to my usual competitors of the same height, I was definitely more muscular, most of the time. That's not to say anything about the importance of that fact, in the end strength is king in powerlifting, but in my own case, Westside was awesome for hypertrophy. I also noticed that the focus on the posterior chain was a godsend for me, as my lifts always improved better the more I hit that chain. I had a phase for 3 months where I listened to all the anti Westside articles and tried to switch my focus to quad training, front squats, high bar squats, close stance and all that (mind you, I don't squat very wide in competition as well, just because my mobility isn't well enough for that, so the movements should have been better in terms of specificity) with the same template and what happened? My squat dropped 10-20%, as did my deadlift. It was a disaster. Now I am not saying that this is how it is for everyone but for me, obviously, sticking to Louie's ideas worked better. Same goes for the deadlift. I used deadlift variations, sometimes 20% of my ME days to sometimes 50% or so of my ME days, but never used my comp style deadlift in training. And still, it is my strongest lift by far, making up roughly 40% of my total. So obviously, all this worked for me. I have switched to another system only once since 2012. I did so while I was in a weaker phase, just having finished a cut that went worse than it should have. Anyway, it felt good for about one and a half weeks, which is when the high frequency and high volume at complex barbell movements (the comp lifts) really took their toll. I had beat up wrists, elbows and knees, as well as a constantly cramped up QL muscle but most importantly, I injured my right glute, which kicked me out of the circuit for a year. This took its toll mentally, resulting in me losing the will to lift for quite a while and not getting back to my personal best since. I am just now in the process of really getting back up and reclaiming that drive to get to the top. As for the bench, I did manage to reach about the same strength or a bit more than that for a time, training with the same high frequency programme but bench only, but my technique went to shit, despite all that specific preparation that supposedly should have helped me. Now there are aspects of "westside" that work for a lot of people but not for me. I really struggled improving my bench despite getting really strong triceps (and always having had very strong shoulders). The reason was, simply, that my chest lacked. But "westside" is not just training your arms. It's training your weaknesses, which for most people means working their arms. I've trained a couple of people in my home gym over the years and I am the only one that lacked in the chest department. Everyone else lacked lockout and arm strength. So for them that was great. For me the weakness was just different and when I made the switch to more focus on my weaknesses, my bench went up by 15% in 2 months. So was the system the problem? No, it was just the way I used the system. I also have found that I made better progress not just maxing out but rather choosing max effort volume according to Prilepin's chart, i.e. I made smaller jumps in weight in order to have more heavy singles, doubles or triples (4-10 total reps in the 90% range). However, this may have led to my tendency to peak and burn out, then peak and burn out again. But I have always had that tendency, so who knows? I know that I am mostly rambling here and this is taking way too long to type out, so let me just conclude: - I see your arguments and I appreciate the effort to spell things out and reason - despite that, most of what Louie prescribes has worked so much better for me than anything else I ever did - I disagree with your definition of "Westside" (which I am unsure whether to even use as a term bc as far as I remember they only ever speak of the conjugate or concurrent method themselves) - building on that, one of THE corner stones of this system is individuality, subtle changes to cater to the one's personal needs and weakness analysis and work on those weaknesses. Having said that, I don't think that the rules of "Westside" can be set in stone as they are always treated to be - and building on that, I have made some minor changes for myself but feel certain that those don't change the nature of the system - finally I have never been seriously injured until I strayed away from the system So all in all: it just works for me. I can't speak for anyone else, really, but for me it was the best thing since sliced bread. But if other things work better for others, then they should do that. Just don't write this system off as being "just for equipped lifters" or "just for juice heads".

FWIW, Louie says clearly here that his lifters use 75%-85% on speed squat day for an average of 25 lifts. With bands, this will be 50%-60% in bar weight and 25% in band tension. This has always been the case. His speed squat "load" has always been 75%-85% with bands.

excellent discussion. i'd be interested to see your guys thoughts on a non-westside concurrent training system vs more of a block style periodization which seems to be more in line with the things i've seen on the JTS site

Conjugate is the only way I'll train. People go way overboard with specificity. If you make your normal training harder then what you have to do in competition, it's hard to lose. Period. I definitely gained strength fastest using a juggernaut type program. But I also gained nagging injuries, and mental fatigue to the point where I took a year off just because I couldn't stand training anymore. Linear periodization took the joy out of training for me. Conjugate allows to me to have fun with something different every single week. I'd rather gain strength slower over time and enjoy the process.

Subscribed and I also purchased your book 7 scientific principles of strength training and it helped me massively. Many thanks guys.

You two talking together is amazing ! The depth of knowledge between the two of you is insane! So much respect for both of you !

Westside barbell system is best!! Have training 35 years, last 25 with Westside. It's about have to change moves, stretching, and i make body moves, witch are not part of Westside. Best system, thank's Louie!!

Would you consider making a video regarding GPP in the context of general strength training or powerlifting? I'd love to see that, because there's a lot of differing opinions on the matter; most recommend sled work, which you suggest is suboptimal yet some recommend pushups, pullups, battle rope and shooting hoops as part of their GPP. It's very confussing. Your content is amazing as always! Thank you

I'm glad you guys are doing this video series on programs! Great job with the video breakdown.

I think Westside recently moved to fives, instead of doubles. I know this video is seven years old.

great stuff Chad as always. Wasn't just a video saying " this way is bad, don't do it bla bla buy this." nice in depth explanation I enjoyed it

Great video lads. Would love to see a video on your thoughts with regards to frequency of the lifts and how it changes.

Matt Wenning should have been here to refute most of the negative points

I watched the video and learned something today. i don't know it all I train conjugated periodization, volume, bodybuilding. All of the above Do I follow a concrete Westside template, with speed work, pendulum waves, and so forth? No Tons of strongman guys I train and compete with use pieces of WSBB, but not the entire system The video was professionally done, and you both speak with class, sophistication, and eloquence. Keep up the good work

ME day is more so just to teach how to properly strain. And they also for DE they use 60% bar weight plus 20-30% band or chain tension. And they recommend just using 70-75-80% straight up weight if you don’t have access to that specialty stuff :)

two words, Burley Hawk

This is gonna be an awesome series. I think u both did a good job stating the pros and cons of westside. I didn't see this being negative at all. This series can be helpful to a lot of ppl. Great idea and great video.

Love this, thanks guys. Had no idea about hypertrophy phases being beneficial 20+ weeks down the line. Guess I've been too impatient.

One thing that Louie Simmons continue to point to for effectiveness of the Westside method is the record board. He shows that his method produces many strong power lifters. Isn’t the proof in the pudding the results?

I think you may be forgetting that at greater joint flexion the lifter is operating at way less than 90% with bands and chains. So there is a lot of work being done at 60 to 80% of every rep. It is far more complex than just attributing a percentage to a rep or set.

Love West Side!!!💪💪

26:15 what he says about Matt Wenning vs intermediate lifters is so accurate. In order to take a training philosofy like Westside's and twist it to suit yourself at 225 lbs natural & lifting raw, you need to really think your rotation of exercises and volume through. It will probably not even be "pure Westside" anymore even though that's where your program originated from.

It's crazy how different Dr. Mike sounds here compared to present day, and how different his mannerisms were.

As someone who is in exercise science I love this channel!!!

Can you guys do The Texas Method?

Interview burley hawk

oh god yes. this series is gonna be amazing

Yeah! I'm really looking forward to this series! I've been waiting for something like this since Powerliftingtowin ended his series. From what I've seen here, your conclusions seem pretty similar to his. Looking forward for more!

love the supplements comment....best critique I've seen of the west side system. .love the channel great knowledge. .keep it up..

Great critique! Very logical and remain objective throughout all arguments.

I feel that some of their criticisms are misplaced because the system is for equipped powerlifters and they bring up novice lifters and raw powerlifters which just isn't the way to go. It'd be like me critiquing Caltech for not having enough humanities degree programs when the college is specifically for people who want to be Engineers or Physicists.

Amazing video. I can't wait to see the rest of the videos in this series. I just finished a conjugate program, and Im so glad that you addressed the phasic structure of it (even though conjugate isn't necessarily westside). Im a relatively new lifter, and long-term success is my main goal, thanks for clearing that up!

great talk ! DUP vs block periodization next?

There are no negatives to Westside!

PH3 next

Chernyak and Jay Schroeder have stated (paraphrase) that "speed work recovers the body". I am sure that the dynamic effort day does develop a form of "explosiveness" but there's a strong chance that recovery has been enhanced as well. Oh and by the way I like your GPP analysis.

it is very interesting to me that most Westside lifters are small. At least, smaller in the regard to RAW lifters. Such limited range of motion and lack of volume truly does limit muscle growth, which is very critical to natural RAW lifters. Great video. The haters will come, but I find all the points in this video extremely accurate. Plus, as said in previous comments, Chad does currently have the strongest PL team with him right now. Results speak for themselves

If you haven't trained at westside it's difficult to critique westside. Just my 2cc's.

You seem to be missing the band tension on speed day. Bands get you to 75-85% range

They train for wearing a suit or shirt in comp. So it is effective for that style.

this is gonna be an awesome series.. looking forward to it!

Westside is for advanced lifters with multiple years of hypertropy/strength training, that most is obvious. I find it to be an effective system and the dynamic effort days are based on a pendulum progressive wave based on current 1rm %'s depending on either deadlifts, squat or bench and/or variations. I find the percentages of progression of 6x3 and 3x1 (circamax reps) effective for max effort while getting in some work on form/technique. Also the template, I follow every 4th week is repetition method instead of max effort and also restoration is implemented as well to promote circulation/recovery/volumization. Also enjoy how you can target weak points, and add them into assistance work post max/dynamic effort to correct any issues/weak points. I lift raw and make some minor modifications overall very effective program adapted from prior Soviet/Bulgarian training principles. Westside is a excellent blend of Experience, Science and application integrated into one system. Long live Westside Barbell and the God Father of powerlifting Louie Simmons.

Dr. Israetel, THANK YOU for using the correct definition of GPP. I hate that the term GPP has essentially become synonymous with "physical fitness" and not as a part of a larger program leading into and supporting the goal of training.

awesome upload. please keep them coming. learning a lot.

I was doing 5x5 and 5x6 volume work, with more abbreviated routines, as a powerlifter in the early '90s. Long before 'Starting Strength' and the like. I got it from Brooks Kubik and it was the best way for me for building strength with hypertrophy. I can't say I agree with the 'lots of sets' view. I went from nothing to a 300lb bench with 2-3 workouts a week with only 6-8 sets for a movement per WEEK. With below average genetics. 'Basics, 'breviated and best' takes you a very long way. Also it's not like people weren't doing pin-presses, floor press etc and other exercises to assist lift training. This was knocking about long before Westside or 'scientific training'.

Westside's response to this video is over 140 World Records

looks like training partial ranges of motion for partial lifts. Seems pretty counter intuitive for discerning athletes who are concerned with quality movements through full range of motion.

This critique is basically "why a program that wasn't designed for raw lifters doesn't work the best for raw lifters" oh wow that's neat and obvious

I'm not an expert by any means. But the fact they are talking about Westside makes me know who the top dog is!

Three knee surgeries (used box squats with chains and bands to recover), two shoulder surgeries( used bands/chains), tricep reattachment /ulnar nerve decompression(bands/chains)…used WestSide Barbell methodologies as therapeutic recovery. Most shall only hate on what the envy.

Really enjoyed this discussion, felt like I learnt a lot about programming and progression in general as well as gaining a greater understanding of Westside

Always learn so much from JTS. I think from some of the comments some people think conjugate periodization and Westside are the same thing.

Chad mustnt have enough of hate from the westside trolls lol I loved the video bruv, keep em coming

Box squats are great if you use a higher box, and your regular squat stance putting your quads into it instead of sitting back so it's mostly hips. When I was in high school, I took George Frenn's squat routine and modified it for myself using a higher seat, reps around 8, and my regular squat stance for the box squat. I also did full front squats. I didn't see any reason to do singles in the high box like Frenn since I could do 8 reps in the box squat with more than my max single. Remember, box squats started with Frenn and Peanuts West before there were squat suits.

Really looking forward to this series!

I would like to point out some things. Exercise selection of westside is based on needs of lifter, geared/raw lifters exercises differ as they differ among raw lifters and so forth. About quads, pecs and difference between geared/raw, u say "traditional real westside system neglects those muscles", Louie has stressed the importance of individual needs. For raw lifter it can mean bigger emphasiz on pecs rather than triceps, but it could still be triceps, delts, lats etc that lifter needs to focus on. Louie says raw lifters need squat more on narrow stance etc, its once again about lifters needs. Talking about box squats and bands, u say bands/chains overload upper part of lift and that's good for geared but not raw, then u say box squat's ain't good either for raw even though they overload down part of lift. Wheres the logic? Bands aren't just variation of strenght curve btw which u dont seem to consider at any time. Also box squats arent always done ultra wide or high, they can be done narrow and as deep as neccesary for lifter. About intensity and volume. Westside lacks hypertrophy work in ur opinion bc they dont do 5*5*80% or so in squat? They have assistance work to take care of mass gains, if its neccesary for lifter. Also they dont have to work to 1RM in ME, they can do it for 5RM followed by more sets of five etc with lower weight for the same purposes u advocate 5*5 etc. Thinking DE is light day isn't true either. It isn't 36 reps with 60%, u get more like 36 reps with 75-85% bc of bands and chains. Louie stresses importance of extra work outs which aren't mentioned here. It's key to add more volume and frequence, add more technique work etc those things that u critize westside lacking. Just some thougths. Cheers. PS. I lift raw and don't do westside style.

Louie said that the only people who train westside, train at westside. Not all the lifters from his gym are equipped either. But nothing wrong with a critique.

I have studied westside and visited there and also run it successfully as a raw lifter. Most of the information in this video is incorrect as there don't know westside.

Can y'all do Smolov next

Wow great video. You guys could have just said why you don't like it and it would have been like 10 minutes, but you gave real reasons why it isn't optimal which I really appreciate. Learned a lot thank you.

In a recent video I watched Louie talk about swapping speed day for a volume day when required and discussed 3 week waves of 5x5, as well as 6x6, 8x8 and even 10 x 10 if needed. He also discussed prioritising what’s needed and that could be wide grip bench for pecs or rollbacks etc for triceps. I think the volume is no different to say the Juggernaut method except one follows linear periodisation and the other doesn’t.

Great review guys!

Sled drags and box squats equal to? Answer hip explosion. Activate the ass . Helps powerlifters inn squats and Deadlifts. So they can use their whole body to use it to coordinate in the lift.

Please do cube method for strongman 💪🏻 although I assume covering the cube or 365 strong would be the same as the program is structured similarly. Also would love to see more strongman content from you guys!!

I totally understand with what they’re saying but the problem with their negative critiques is, Louie Simmons’s methods has broken records that haven’t been broken to this day. If there was a better way to do things, how come no one’s doing it to the point where they’ll break Westside barbells records? That’s like critiquing Floyd Mayweathers undefeated boxing style. But what you guys say makes sense. But we need logistical illustrations. Logic, in this case, says that Louie’s system is better than the rest. Right Dave Hoff?

Awesome discussion, glad I discovered you channel big Chad.

Great video. Well worth the time. As a raw lifter, it's good to hear about programs that don't fit my goals. Obviously Westside works for some people, but one size definitely doesn't fit everyone.

Great video not negative unlike the Westside supporters are saying keep it up!

Would like to see a critique on a DUP-style program next! Always enjoy these vids with Dr. Israetel

You guy are the best. Thanks for changing my understanding of Westside training.

That's the beautiful thing about body building and Power lifting ... there are a lot of different ways to get a result... and some work better for others that don't do Shit for some... I love west side... but I also listen sincerely when someone else who knows their Shit extensively and talks about the subject. Cheers and hails....

I would love more of a critique on the conjugate methodology concept as opposed to what Louie Simmons is doing because many people come to the conclusion that things need to be modified so they definitely aren't doing exactly what Louie is, so in that case it's not Westside. When looking at different periodization models choosing to do a block/phasic system or training multiple qualities within the week can become confusing. For instance, I used to do what Charles Poliquin espoused with a phase of accumulation and then a phase of intensification but there wasn't enough discussion on how long those phases should be and he used a 3 rep bracket such as 3-5 reps, 6-8 reps, 2-4 reps, 8-10 reps but the problem is some of those can easily overlap poorly where the contrast seems to small. In your opinion is a conjugate system worth doing at all, or is block periodization always better if it's intelligently designed?

Most of the critiques, like many others do, focus on the methods used, or known that are used. But Westside is a System, it is the methods you chose to use in that system that can debunk many critiques. Sure, do they tweak it for geared, clearly. Can you tweak it for raw? Clearly. Most, not all of the critiques in the vid, are based around their choice of methods for geared comps and clearly they would be different for someone using the system for raw. The critiques most relevant to compare should between the JTS system and the WSB system, but is not as easy to do because of individual variance. Not trying to bash, just make some points, and I appreciate all that JTS is doing for the community.

The guys at massthetics, made a conjuring program for raw lifters and its seems to be very well done. I see people getting a lot stronger, very fast on it. I think because of the low volume (more volume than westside, though) people aren't seeing great hypertrophy gains, but rather get really efficient with the muscle that they have. Great video, keep it up.

I've got to do a critique of Westside for my MSc program. It would be really helpful to know a couple of research papers you gentlemen used for this video.

Every time I try and construct a Westside type program with an appropriate stimulus on the secondary day, it pretty much comes out looking like a 4 day Texas Method.

You guys should do Daily undulating periodization

Good video. I respect Louie for powerlifting, but in weightlifting (my sport), he's completely lost. The Soviet sports research is designed for weightlifting, and the "special exercises" are largely exercises of moderate-high specificity. For example, a "special exercise" for the clean might be the clean from blocks. A "special exercise" for the jerk might be a jerk dip.

I’m so glad I found this video. I’m forever challenged on why I default to building volume - my 5sx5r with the same weight and building my 10 rep sets - but I’m reestablishing a base strength. There is only so many times I can gain incremental increases on a max rep without risking injury. I struggle to articulate why I train the way I do but you put it very simply. We must go through these phases. Thank you for the video!

really like this video im a westside raw lifter but i program myself and it is heavily modified for me i box squat until my last 2 squat sessions i do believe that its not for beginners i lifted for 12 years before westside just my two cents also i do appreciate these videos they are helpful thanks bob

sled dragging are benefitial for recovery due to the joint decompensating effect i assume ....... + it strenghtens ligerments & tendon wich supports longevity in sport......

Great critique.

rip L.S.🙏

Most people are saying this is a "low blow" or talking shit about conjugate/westside. But he said many times that this is not about conjugate or congruent training its about "Westside" and simply stated his opinions towards westside and things he likes and does not agree with. We all know louie is great at what he does and what he does works for the people he trains.

The way you guys are carrying on you wouldn't think that Westside has the strongest gym in the world. At 20:20 you're talking about how Westside is bad/suboptimal for women/smaller people, but they've got basically all of the women's records... The use of bands/accommodating resistance: What about the force posture strength curve? What about overspeed eccentrics? What about improving motor unit recruitment or reversal speed? 23:08 "if you're changing exercises every week you're eventually going to have exercises that have low transfer". They don't just throw in exercises at random just because they're different exercises. As far as I can tell they use about 3-4 different variations that target specific weaknesses, and also include different stances/grips, and different bars as part of that change. 24:00 Simmons says himself that they never do a standard deadlift. This guy doesn't seem to have done his homework. If it didn't work then why do they have so many deadlift records? 27:30 I'm sure everyone would really appreciate if you cite your sources on the claim that you're best off training one system at a time. 28.55 "if you want to be the best at any one thing..." are they not the best at strength?

Westside does a ton of shoulder and delt work so your wrong on that>

a few things I love about the westside training style, is the mathematical approach. Not saying other programs don't work, but westside has you make choices that aren't arbitrary. If I have a 365 raw bench, and I want to get it to the level of the 400 pound bencher, I can use the prilepin's chart to decide what my speed work should look like. Once I get to a point where I can complete a pendulum wave with the same weight, speed and volume as the 400 pound bencher, the likelyhood is I will also bench close to 400. The numbers aren't arbitrary like in some other programs. Westside actually makes arguments for why you are using a certain percentage, band tension etc... it's not by feel. Even the special exercises are regulated on both a group level and an individual level. I read this article where louie talks about the "web" for squatting. If you want a 500 pound squat, you must get the special exercises up to the level of the other 500 pound squatters. If you are severely lacking in say, good mornings, when compared to the others, you know what you need to work on (at least it's an indication). In olympic lifting, there are plenty of charts that use a web for the snatch and the clean and jerk, so why not have it for powerlifting? This is, in my opinion, the beauty of westside. It bases the training on logical arguments, rather than just trying things out (though Louie does experiment a lot too). Every workout should have a clear purpose :). This is also why I like Chad and this youtube channel, because his ideas on block periodization also make it so that each block/workout has a defined purpose.

Hard to deny that it works for a few certain people? Is this a case for this is great geared pharma enhanced athletes? I do not say either is bad just think a lot of programs work or dont work based on the person and where they are in the lifting journey.

back back back TAKE IT TAKE IT TAKE IT

Other programs suck so by our book