You’re welcome

Thank u for sharing your remarkable history.

I heard something similar, even that Hopi words in ceremonies and our words in the temple are the same. I was also told that Hopi believe they have the truth and someday they will share it with the world.

There are many parallels in the Navajo Traditional Teachings that can be found in the Book of Mormon and the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. They immigrated from the east of modern day USA to the four corners region because the Holy people told them because of the wars going on 2,000 years ago.

It would be interesting if those sources were properly pointed to. The Heartland model relies a whole lot on hearsay evidence. The Book of Mormon itself tells us that Zarahemla and Nephi were nearly surrounded by water, that Bountiful was north of Zarahemla and south of the narrow neck of land. Above that was the land of desolation where the Jaredites wiped themselves out. Note that most heartlanders place the narrow neck north west of cumorah

BofM also says that there were massive changes to the landscape at the coming of Christ. We don’t have any geography descriptions after that time.

The Hopewell people lived there and in many places of the heartland. They had metal breastplates, headplates and swords. Not wooden pattals with volcanic glass tied to them. Its very interesting. I'll post a link to some great videos or a channel dedicated to this topic in a second reply.

@Mason Ponton even if you find metal breastplates and swords in the heartland, that doesn't prove book of Mormon events rook place there. The Book of Mormon makes it clear that after the battles that Captain Moroni fought in, there were massive migrations northward The Book of Mormon is clear based off the verses I already quoted that the land of Nephi and Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water which disqualifies the heartland model. Pointing these facts out to heartlanders is a lot like pointing out the facts from the Bible to Evangelicals that the church fell into an apostasy and there was a need for a restoration rather than just a little reform. Everyone is attached to their own thinking and try to manipulate the text of scripture to their agenda rather than bending to the scripture as we should

Wow all I got to say is that the LDS people for over 190 years have never been able to muster enough faith to have those bones, swords & breastplates revealed. So far the prophets have failed miserably.

He's a crackpot.

Thank you

After many years of believing it took place in Mesoamerica I began taking the geography seriously and then discovered these other locations, especially the North American Heartland region. As more and more is brought forth and coming to light, the evidence is overwhelming. Culture, various evidences within teachings from the Book of Mormon, alters, burial practices of Algonquin and Cherokee tribes, DNA, artifacts, carbon dating and so many archaeological findings such as berms and wood wall ruins and remains all point to the Heartland region which is a much larger geographical area than the Mesoamerica model. Sometimes we over look how vast the eastern United States actually is when you're on foot. It took time for me because I had been conditioned for so long due to FARMS but I believe (almost to a sure knowledge) that it is indeed the Heartland.

You had me at "Twitter poll."

Mesoamerica is part of North America.

Excuse me. Henrietta Mertz is the author of The Mystic Symbol'.

Personal opinion the Smithsonian are Gadiantons.

I was a teen and went to Seminary in the late 60s. Back then we were taught that Central America was the narrow neck of land. I remember looking at the map and thinking that if the Lamanites and Nephites did that much running around from South America to North America, it would be impossible to build the stuff they created and have families and a life. Then as an adult in the 80s, I read Sorenson's Meso America version. That made so much more sense to me. For the last ten years, I've learned about the Heartland model, which makes even more sense!

Exactly! Taking a class at CSUS about Native Americans in North America, my whole body felt on fire with the spirit of the Book of Mormon. It was hard to keep it to myself. Many years later I purchased a video done by BYU scholars and it taught the Pacific Ocean Meso-model. I never felt anything for it. Then I came across a video by Wayne May and that warm, joyful, excitement came back!

Yeah the other guy he interviews (Brandt) starts by saying we all want the heartland model to be true because we're white 🤦‍♂️

That Hill kamora is an upstate New York. It's not in South America. It never was in South America but scholars pinned their careers in that part of North America. They're wrong they don't want to admit it because they attach too much of their lives to that narrative. Did Christ appear to the people in Panama and? Northern South America and in Peru. You? Betty did they. Were? Part of the. Other people when he left the people around the hill kamora and the city of bountiful he says other people have I must I visit them also. There is evidence that even visited people in Japan or the Japanese islands. But many of the academics that BYU want to hold on to this bias attitude All the evidence plus historical written pieces within church history through the 1st presence of the church that existed during. During president Joseph Smith's time when they walked across the Americas in Zion's camp. Told you where the Heartland Are the ancient inhabitants of this land war? One of the best evidences of that is in the book of mormon where it Tells about the rejection of the gospel by certain people within the book. And that they follow migrating herbs to feed themselves by Following my grading herds. There was no migrating herds in south america of animals the only place that took places in north america

Hannah doesn't get her history or facts correct

Yes Please!

He is not good with details. He is kinda hung up on things that don’t matter that much.

May is interested in $selling$...

His novel Moronis Keys is a good short story to gift to people to introduce to them the heartland model ❤❤

You are correct, we should always focus on the doctrines and principals of the gospel first. But learning about this is also interesting too. I just get tired of the mesoamerica model accept as absolute truth and heartland model not even discussed as an option.

@@ak8990 right you are!

Thanks for sharing!

@@CwicShow All of the geography descriptions were before the “entire face of the land was changed” at the death of Christ.

So to clarify, are you saying you trust Joseph's beliefs & opinions, over other scholars and other researchers, regarding the Book of Mormon record?

@@davus4242 absolutely. I think, being taught and tutored by an angel far exceeds any kind of knowledge a scholar could obtain by his own efforts.

@@robynmills5534 Excellent! Indeed, Joseph was well tutored, by many Angels and visions regarding the Book of Mormon, Joseph truly is the one qualified mortal expert on the Book of Mormon. Everyone else (in mortality) including Oliver, would be secondary to Joseph's opinion. Correct, Joseph's knowledge and expertise of the Book of Mormon, does far exceed the opinion of any earthly scholar or run-of-the-mill non-scholar researchers such as Mr. Neville in this video?

Perhaps what Joseph believed would be of interest to you. The Church's main focus and mission is to proclaim and teach the Gospel of Christ; BOM & Biblical geography are not topics the Church dwells on, thus many latter-day saints are unaware Joseph claimed and declared Zarahemla was in Central America; he even put it in writing and published it. If you're interested in historical facts, google - Times and Seasons October 1, 1842 Zarahemla. Joseph as Editor, along with his assistant editors, Apostles John Taylor & Wilford Woodruff (both of whom would become presidents of the Church), boldly declare as an "important fact" - Zarahemla was in Central America, in the land of Guatemala. To substantiate the claim and declaration, Joseph, being very familiar with the details of the BOM, quotes and rehearses Alma 22 describing the region where Zarahemla was. This is what Joseph felt and believed, and he printed it in the Church's Times and Seasons paper, there's no hearsay about it. True story look it up. The editors then went on to clarify, they weren't declaring an exact or specific city mentioned in an explorer's book, they had previously named and discussed in a previous edition of the T&S as the city of Zarahemla. They didn't feel impressed to declare that specific city Zarahemla, only that Zarahemla was somewhere in Central America. However, they (Joseph, John, & Wilford) are of the opinion that the previously named city, was a city of the Book of Mormon, just not Zarahemla. Read the T&S article for the details. Keep in mind, this secondary clarification of a specific city previously named as not being Zarahemla, does not dissolve the declared important fact, that Zarahemla was in Central America. The important fact of Zarahemla being in Central America collaborates with the BOM narrative. You either trust Joseph or you don't. To attempt to speculate this declaration away is futile. Also, know, in the same T&S Oct 1, 1842 edition, the editors (Joseph, John, & Wilford) refute the conspiring claims, suggesting Joseph had fled the area of Nauvoo and is on the run. Truth is, Joseph was still in the area and still very much editor of what was printed in the T&S Oct 1, 1842; while at the same time avoiding false arrest of conspiring men. Read the full edition, Joseph was still around and still very much in charge, as represented & substantiated by the T&S article itself. So a very special thanks to the editors(Joseph, John, & Wilford), for documenting this conspiracy so long ago and clearing it up for future generations. Keep in mind, earlier that year, when Joseph took over as editor of the T&S, he declared, and assured the readers, that he alone would be responsible for what was printed in the T&S while he was editor. Joseph was Editor until November 15, 1842, a full six weeks after Joseph makes the declaration that Zarahemla is in Central America; at which time Joseph steps aside as Editor and appoints John Taylor as the new Editor of the Times and Season. Logic and common sense dictate if John Taylor had published the Zarahemla claim on his own, without Joseph's knowledge and consent, and if Joseph didn't agree with it; would Joseph have promoted John to Editor six weeks after such declaration?? The thought makes reason stare. Further, "if" Joseph didn't oversee the publication of the October 1, 1842 edition, and he disagreed with the bold declaration, know this, Joseph would have had it retracted, as he assured his readers he was responsible. Joseph never had it retracted. Truth is, Joseph is the one who published it; Joseph was Editor and owns the declaration, Zarahemla is in Central America. You either trust Joseph or you don't. Next, go to the Church's website and search - 'Book of Mormon Geography'. Notice, the church takes no stance on the exact location of BOM cities, because no exact locations have been revealed. However, in the same statement on the Church's website, the Church does acknowledge Joseph's beliefs on the subject, and further confirms and substantiates Joseph as Editor of the Times & Seasons in 1842 for the articles referring to Book of Mormon lands and Central America (aka Mesoamerica). Very interesting indeed. Kinda clears up any speculation. Joseph, states Zarahemla is in Central America, within the borders of Guatemala, as he would have known it on the maps of his day. For additional & interesting collaboration on what Joseph would have known Guatemala to be in his day, google - "map of Guatemala 1825" (or 1835, it doesn't matter) open a properly labeled map and notice Guatemala's borders back in Joseph's day extended as far north to include the Chiapas & Palenque areas of modern-day Mexico. Say what! A very interesting area indeed! Long before any scholar pronounce their own theory as to the location of the land of Zarahemla, Joseph had already declared it to be Central America. No scholars or theories needed to narrow down the general area, Joseph did it for us. All things considered, it all fits. With Zarahemla being in Central America, does the BOM narrative accommodate Joseph's claims of "walking the plains of the Nephites" and the Zelph stories? Could both be accurate and plausible? Yes, in fact, these stories actually collaborate with the BOM narrative precisely with no contradiction. Alma 63 and Helaman 3:3-5,12-16 states many groups of Nephites left the land of Zarahemla & Bountiful and migrated to the north country, both by land and by sea. This also accounts for how a Zelph-type character and other descendants of converted Lamanites were in the northern country during the last struggles. Remember these Nephites departed FROM the lands of Zarahenla and Bountiful sailing across a sea. Also note, there is a sea, not just land, between Zarahemla and the land of a New Jerusalem in the north country. So yes, there are plains of Nephites in the heartland of the north country, There are no contradictions by Joseph, and no mental gymnastics are required. There are even statements in the BOM narrative that signal there was commerce trade happening between the Nephites in the land of Zarahemla/Bountiful and the migrant Nephites groups in the north country. It's all in the book. The book itself, says we will find evidence of Nephite cultures in the heartland of North America; only the evidence found is that of other Nephite groups that left the lands of Zarahemla & Bountiful where the prophets Nephi through Mormon dwelt, which is in Central America. No academics or scholars are needed to locate the region of the continent where the city of Zarahemla was; Joseph already took care of it in 1842; it's in Central America. After studying the Book of Mormon and all of Joseph's statements, I agree with Joseph; Zarahemla is somewhere in Central America. I'm certainly not going with the opinion of a guy selling books based upon uninspired, inaccurate, secondhand letters of Oliver. Oliver couldn't even keep the timeline of the first vision and Moroni visit straight, as he conflates them into one event. Joseph had to have Oliver retract the mistake, which Oliver does in the next letter (which demonstrates Joseph didn't actually dictate or help write the letters in the first place, as Mr. Neville insinuates. Oliver made the mistake on his own, and Joseph corrected it after the letter was written). However, to this day, anti-Mormons use Oliver's debacle as evidence it's a made-up story, that the story evolved, and that they couldn't keep their story straight. In another inaccurate Oliver letter, Oliver places himself as equal to Joseph in place of authority, referring to Joseph as "one" of the presidents of the Church, hello, Joseph was the President, and Oliver was only an assistant, there's a big difference. Joseph realizes Oliver was inept with the task of accurately writing the history; Joseph removes Oliver from writing the history and calls someone else to do it. Oliver lets his ego rule his emotions, continues to falter, and is excommunicated for dissension and sedition. Sad, but true. The Oliver letters are inaccurate, full of mis & disinformation, and of no or very little worth in the correct history of Joseph, the Church, and the Book of Mormon. All things considered, it all adds up and fits; I'm going with Joseph on this one, Zarahemla is in Central America; you either trust him or you don't. The Book of Mormon is correct and true! Take care now!

Glad you enjoyed it!

I wondered that, too! One day I stumbled upon information about the New Madrid Fault Line. The descriptions of locals regarding what is called “The Forgotten Earthquakes of 1811 & 1812” provide parallels to what is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. When I came across the information from those Earthquakes I began to wonder and then found decades worth of parallels in the research from Wayne May and Rod Meldrum. I was dumbfounded that I’d never heard of the Heartland model before that! I should also mention that the sand blows discovered by geologists that study the New Madrid fault line, show that mega earthquakes regularly “pop off“ in that area every 300 to 500 years, including around the time of Christ.

I think the ruins that are being found under the great lakes could be from this era.

@@lunettepepperglow7472 that is very interesting I’ve never heard of that before. Any reference material that I can look up?

Thanks!

Yes, after hearing this, I decided not to continue the Saints books.

You're welcome!

​@@anthonyrippa686 mounds still stand. The timbers that were on the mound have since been destroyed, rotted or removed for repurposing.

@@anthonyrippa686 did you hear him talking about the Adena and Hopewell mounds?

@@anthonyrippa686 The Nephites built their buildings with wood, and their fortifications were largely earth and wood. The only other material mentioned for buildings was cement, which was only used until they could obtain timber. Stone walls are mentioned briefly, but earth mounds and pickets were clearly the main way to defend a city. "Cement highways" are never mentioned in the BoM, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. Everything about their traveling is subjective. How north was "northward"? How south was "southward"? How far was an "exceedingly great distance"? There is no objective way to determine these things. And given that they were ancient people without modern transportation, what they thought of as "far" was probably not as far as what we think of.

​@@anthonyrippa686 I was born and raised in Southern Ohio and have had the privilege of exploring the land and mounds. There are many evidences of cement and ancient land removal that seem to match with events in The Book of Mormon, along with the aforementioned mounds.

@@anthonyrippa686 We don't know how extensive the cement use was. The BoM says they also lived in tents during that time. Cement was used only until timber could be acquired. Timber appears to be the desired building material: "they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their synagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings." They wanted timber so badly that they "did send forth much by the way of shipping." So again, how much they actually used cement is unknown (and it was only in the land northward). This cement period also took place before the destructions in 3 Nephi, which may have destroyed many of the cement structures.

Glad you like it!

DNA evidence shows the Algonquian women were appealing to European trappers and explorers. White women were attractive to Indians, too. Ha!

Heber also visited the site after he joined the Church in April 1832. He wrote, "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it." When he was 14 years old, Kimball worked in his father's blacksmith shop in the Bloomfield area west of Canandaigua and east of Avon. His observations of the area are quoted in his biography, Life of Heber C. Kimball, on p. 25 (or p. 50, depending on the edition): "From the time Father Bosley located near Avon, he found and plowed up axes and irons, and had sufficient to make his mill irons, and had always abundance of iron on hand without purchasing. "In the towns of Bloomfield, Victor, Manchester, and in the regions round about, there were hills upon the tops of which were entrenchments and fortifications, and in them were human bones, axes, tomahawks, points of arrows, beads and pipes, which were frequently found; and it was a common occurrence in the country to plow up axes, which I have done many times myself. "I have visited the fortifications on the tops of those hills frequently, and the one near Bloomfield I have crossed hundreds of times, which is on the bluff of Honeyoye River, and the outlet of Honeyoye Lake.... "The hill Cumorah is a high hill for that country, and had the appearance of a fortification or entrenchment around it. In the State of New York, probably there are hundreds of these fortifications which are now visible, and I have seen them in many other parts of the United States." Heber's biographer, Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve, commented "Readers of the Book of Mormon will remember that in this very region, according to that sacred record, the final battles were fought between the Nephites and Lamanites. At the hill Cumorah, the Nephites made their last stand prior to their utter extermination, A.D., 385. "Thus was Heber preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, above the graves of the ancients of Israel, whose records with the fullness of that Gospel, and the relics of their prowess and civilization, were now 'whispering from the dust.'" archive.org/details/LifeOfHeberC.Kimball/page/n49/mode/2up?q=Cumorah

I served my mission in Central America and visited Copan Honduras three times, Tikal, and ruins in Yucatán. My experience exactly. The heartland rings true. I get cognitive dissidence in considering Mesoamerica.

Hi, there was a "room" discovered in the Hill Cumorah in about 2004 or 5. Located about 1/2 way down the high west side. I know one of the people who saw the opening after a young child fell through the "ground" into the room or cave. it was roughly 16 ft square and perhaps 10 feet deep. Made of dry stack stones. Several photos were taken and I have seen the photos and spoken with other eyewitnesses. The Church facilities covered the whole the next day and it has not been explored to my knowledge.

I would love to hear about this source of yours, because I thought that archeologists found no signs of battle from this hill.

Bones deteriorate but teeth don't as much there would millions of them.

Come 'on. Tell us how ya really feel! 😅

And we know that at the time of Christ's crucifixion the land was dramatically changed. You should read Jonathan's explanation of the "Times and Seasons" account. There is much more to it than you realize. Not so cut and dried.

Besides Jonathan, look into videos done by Wayne Mays.

I keep being inspired to move to Chattanooga. Now I think it would be so interesting.

Amen Jeff!

Um read Doctrine and covenants it specifically states that he was the first prophet in this dispensation

Glad you enjoyed it.

There is a lot of evidence that the land before the flood at Noah's time was basically one continent. The secular scientist call it Pangea. When you put the continents back together it makes it much easier to see that the Garden was located where Joseph said. Answers in Genesis is a great Christian organization that has wonderful KZfaq videos that explain this. They don't talk about Joseph's revelations of course, but great scientific based information anyway.

We learn in Mormon 4:23 that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, so Mormon took up the records hidden in the hill Shim. Since that point Mormon kept the records even during the time of the Nephites retreat. That retreat began about ten years before the final battle. So realistically that is plenty of time for the records to be moved from central America to NY to be buried by Moroni. But we also need to remember that the final burial of the plates occurred in 421 AD while the final battle occurred in 385 AD.

If I could speak for Jonathan, I think he would say that it does not specifically say "America" and that you (and others, myself included) are interpreting that text to say America. If you look at the text, it is actually vague. Someone could read into that whatever they want. I do have to say, even when I believed the Meso Model, every time I would read that part of the Book of Mormon, I always thought of the United States and not Guatemala. The US is the Promised Land.

Happy to do it.

@@jeffwhipple2658 And I can respect that different people can interpret that differently - I feel like this specific scripture and the greater topic is one where reasonable minds can differ, and I'm fine with that. I just don't put a lot of stock into Jonathan's arguments, as in this specific instance he doesn't seem to leave the door open for a widely accepted interpretation of this scripture. If he was more reasonable about things like this, it would make his argument stronger in my eyes. But that's just me.

A detailed reading of the book of mormon will get you to that conclusion, Joseph Smith didn't originally refer to the hill in new york as Cumorah, it was Oliver Cowdery who started that, by 1842, in D&C Joseph Smith uses the word Cumorah, but at that time the idea had already been cemented in church culture.

Keep looking into the Heartland Model and you will find that it fits better than the Meso Model. I was skeptical at first but after going down the rabbit hole, the Heartland Model makes the most sense. Promised Land, Law of Moses, and so many other reasons.

@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 If you watch the video, Jonathan covers this. He said that Joseph knew the name Cumorah before he got the plates, according to his mother Lucy Smith. Jospeh was learning first hand about the history of the BofM people straight from the source, angels that visited him. Joseph would then teach his family about what he had learned, kind of like FHE style. The family would love to sit and listen to Joseph talk all about what he learned. This was all BEFORE getting the plates. He was being prepared to translate the BofM by first getting to understand the people and their culture.

@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 You are describing the narrative that RLDS scholars Stebbins and Hills started in the late 1800s, which Jack Welch has picked up and promoted, but that narrative contradicts the historical record. Re-read Lucy Mack Smith's history and the other sources available at the lettervii dot com site.

If you read the church history series you find that the hill actually opened and they went inside discovering an entire repository of documents. There was also a table upon which was the sword. Condensed version

Thank you!

Julie, I've also been researching both sides of this. I'm from Southern Ohio and there is rich history and evidence there that supports the heartland model. I first heard about it when I was 15 and my bishop invited Rod Meldrum to give a late night presentation on this (and the USA in general) to members eager and willing to hear. I felt heartily convinced by his humble presentation and an innate desire for it to be true. I was called on my mission to Orem, Utah (Spanish speaking) and had the privilege to teach and minister with Dr. Joseph Allen and his son and daughter-in-law. They had a non-member friend come from Guatemala that finally accepted their invitation to learn from the missionaries, and the lot fell to me and my companion. I know that her conversion and baptism was a primary reason the Lord called me when and where he did, and I still have a great bond with the family. They are a beautiful family and Joseph's studies/argument for the Mesoamerican model piqued my interest. I'm still researching, but my heart lies with the Heartland model. However, I am willing to accept either (or both, if that's the case) and can't wait to go back and rewatch that history from God's perspective when the time comes.

@@bheer98 I still have Dr Allen’s book and even worked for him part time. Remember that huge beautiful 🗺️ map? I love it so much. I also served a Spanish speaking mission in Chile. In my opinion, both models and the evidences of are fascinating renderings or theories as we do not yet know the “truthfulness of all things”. I too am anxious to learn definitively of either model or another yet undiscovered model. Regardless, both models only serve to strengthen my testimony. The spiritual conversion and testimony that comes with the study if the B of M supersedes any theory that exist or may yet come to light. Glad to see we are like-minded. 👏😊🗺️📖

@@juliebey8240 I've got a copy of his book, too! And that map is very well done (I love visual depictions like that). The fact that we can even talk about the "where" with certainty that it was somewhere in Americas is a testament to how The Book of Mormon is what it is claimed to be.

Delbert Curtis was my father-in-law’s uncle. He was always Uncle Deb to family.

Well said.

I typed before the last 30 seconds. Looking forward to the next episode. Thanks Greg and Jonathan!