This is EXCELLENT. I believe with the advent of the ramp test, most people are training way TOO HARD, including myself! There must be thousands of TrainerRoad users doing work that is far too hard, and burning out. I know because that was me. FTP per the ramp test ranged from 262 to 273. I trained based on those figures and I always felt tired as hell, and I really plateaued, despite completing most of the workouts (extreme suffering). And when I really thought about it, there is no way in hell I could hold 273 for an entire hour. I actually looked at an all-out effort I did for an hour, and it came in around 245 watts. I am changing my FTP to 245 and training from there. I'm also moving to polarized, and so far I feel so much more rested and far less burnt out. I'm not toast anymore. I really think the TR sweet spot base training plus inflated FTPs is ruining a lot of people. I learned my lesson. Never again. Polarized seems to really suit me. I'm less fatigued, and have a lot more enthusiasm for my training.

Great video on this subject. I think i am an outlier here but for me the ramp test undersated my ftp by about 20 watts. I got an ftp of 261 via ramp test, but all my training sessions felt way too easy. I could easily do 2x60 minutes at 260. Did a 20 minute test x .95 and got 281. Now my threshold intervals are 2x15 or 2x20, 3x20 at 280-290 and I can complete them with some effort. My vo2 max zone based off of 280 is about perfect as well. I think both tests can give you a good idea of your weak spots and what you need to focus on. For me it was vo2. Thanks for video really enjoyed it👍

Hi Phil - Wish I’d watched this two years ago. Five minute FTP tests used at well known gym centres tend to exaggerate real VT2 thresholds even more than 20 minute tests. Thanks. Leigh

You truly are a sucker for pain… lab testing and then an ftp test 😅 but really interesting and great video as always Phil 💪

Great video Phil, and Adam. Very interesting, thanks for sharing your experiences.

Really great video Phillip, thanks again for the content, keep up the good work.

A very educational video Phil. I haven't seen any others on KZfaq doing a deep dive like yours. Keep up the good work.

Well done on putting that together Phil, great job.

Top notch as always Phil Thank you

Really insightful, thank you for sharing!

This was extremely interesting. Thank you very much for this 🙏🏾

Got to be the best video I have watched about ftp. Really interesting. Well done Phil 👏

Great video Phill, the concept of threshold is well presented. I particularly like that Adam says that threshold is that point between zones, not a zone itself. Many people can't grasp this concept.

What a fantastic and really interesting video. Thank you.

Excellent stuff. You’ve certainly grounded this subject for me. The peer pressure to have a high FTP is huge, especially if you’re a regular Zwifter. Zwift watt numbers and the reality outside on the road are two very different things it would seem. Another great video. 👌👍

Yet another really interesting vid opens a can of worms in the world of ftp but as you say for most of us it puts us in the ballpark. Thanks for all your efforts doing it. 👏👏👍

I love it how you always take of your mask to speak to the camera…. 😂

Awesome info Phil very interesting results.. 🚴👏

Super interesting Phill, an accurate ftp is essential for intervals calibration and progression. 20mn test as too much use of anaerobic sector and it must be taken into account. Good job as usual!

Anaerobic Threshold is a total misnomer. At Lactate Threshold/FTP there is only minimal anaerobic energy. Anaerobic kicks in above VO2max. Before there is plenty of oxygen available - San Millan I use 5min max, 10min rest and 20min max. Then use Monod Scherrer CP. Number is spot on.

Great content Phill! I'm always up for any criticism of the 20 minute test mostly because I'm crap at them 😂 but then when you subscribe to the Piglet "just race loads" training plan it doesn't really matter. But seriously, great to see thorough, coherent discussion of a very tricky subject!

Another ‘bro science’ information spectacular! Have always disliked the 20 min FTP warm up and 5 min all out before the real test but now have a better understanding why, so thanks Phill for your efforts in the lab 👍 Gonna have to do another 20 min Zwift FTP soon, this time try the whole thing.

The video discusses the fact that the Anaerobic Threshold / VT2 / FTP is the inflection point at which the body just about able to still only work aerobically (with elevated HR, breathing and just able to buffer the lactate waste). And that above this threshold the body then needs to start using its anaerobic reserves (eg glycogen in the muscle) and can’t buffer the lactate waste . It covers what you are saying

appreciate the effort to dive down in thunderbird 4 and explore these matters. i wouldn’t be too down on the 20min test. it’s not perfect, but it’s a protocol developed for the general population as an alternative to the 60 minute test (which is very hard to pace for most people). the choices for most people will remain ramp tests (zwift) or a.i. estimates (trainerroad & xert). maybe when the wretched bbc license fee is scrapped fellows will have the spare lolly to spring for annual lab tests, wot? well done buzzing up ven-top twice this morning. i found that route rather a bore.

Great vid as usual - interesting how the numbers vary I do a 8 min test and remove 10%. It’s a number and work from there and as you say find the equilibrium- however you don’t find much of it when your racing. Keep up the story brilliant story and see how you go!!

Good vid, I like some nuance!

Nice Video! I have made the exact same experience. Had a labtest 3 weeks ago, where I could use my own bike with powermeter on a calibrated smarttrainer. As a result I now know, that I overestimatet my FTP by 34 Watts, which is huge. I have been told, that i'm a pure sprinter (1534W peak, 1115W over 15 sec, 258W threshold) and therfore am able to hold power slightly over my threshold for much longer than more endurance based athletes, as the net laktate pruduction kurve is significantly flatter for athletes with high VLaMax. Even with depleted tank (5min efford before the test) the 20 min FTP-test doesn't work for me, ramp tests are even worse. Traditional FTP-tests might work for the majority of athletes, but are never an absoute truth.

Another good one Phil.

Another great video, Phill. Very interesting topic. As an Xert user, I have improved by "dropping" from 252 to 222 I have increased overall massively. As a heavy rider, I just want to climb that little bit easier now I run a 1 x 12, 10-33t and where I am surrounded by 15% ramps.

Really interesting video. One criticism of Zwift is the way it updates your FTP after a race. If that was one of the short sprint type races, then you'll have started fresh without the anaerobic depletion bit. Testing in the lab is all very well, but it occurs to me you should probably use your own PM pedals, otherwise the power could be off. And given the comments about 5-10W being crucial, you don't want that difference to come into play.

Nice Video Phil. All this is why I tend to take my FTP from what I can actually maintain for a 1-hour race on Zwift now. Or a full effort on the Alpe. The 20 minute test isn't 'bad' just prone to error shall we say? And the ramp test (at least as done by Zwift) tends to massively overstate my FTP.

Very interesting! It would be interesting to check what the MAP-based "ramp" test and the quite unknown but very interesting Friel's FTP confirmation test. This one is based on knowing your LTHR and how stable it is through the successive steps of the test.

This is a great video Phil. I guess power meter accuracy plays a massive part and to a lesser extent bike fit etc. That said, how many people go with the larger number (for vanity reasons etc) and are training ineffectively. These videos are great. Thanks for sharing

Good evening Phill. Really interesting video this one Phill, extremely informative and I really got a lot out of this one. I've never liked the way Zwift build you up to the actual 20 minute FTP. I always feel spent before I begin the actual test. I now tend to listen to my body knowing I can ride comfortably at around 200 watts, just under my FTP. Yet on a long climb, around an hour, I seem to be able to hold an higher amount of watts around 225 watts. So I'm guessing there is a lot of psychology going on in my head as I'm not sure I could hold 225watts on a flat course.

As always super interesting Phil and am loving the self-inflected pain effort for our enjoyment 🥵😍 May I ask whether your HR was similar in all tests ? How quick after each test did your HR return back to normal state ? Loving these videos and really nice work Phil 💯👌

Enjoyed that Phil, really fascinating. Given the fact a degree of estimation is involved, I’ve always suspected most FTP tests aren’t wholly accurate. The difficulty is finding an accurate test that is A) easily available to most people and B) not mental torture. For me even a 20 minute test is mentally challenging. While I can often hold 290-310w on a 20 minute climb, the thought of doing it in a test situation is much more daunting for psychological reasons. I think many of us, me included, place too much emphasis on our FTP test numbers and due to them being too high, burn ourselves out. Charlie

Great set of videos Phil. So there seems to be a big window of uncertainty here in the results, the conditions of the environment and the amount of preloading to any given test, and that's for a well controlled lab test. Some what ironically we all get fixated with that 95% of a number generated in a pain cave on commercial equipment after a stressful day at work. Putting bragging rights aside, and using 'the ftp' number to set zones for work, what do we know about the benefits of training at exactly the aerobic threshold as opposed to training conservatively at say 5 to 10% under it.... or same for any zone training? What is clear here is that overestimating that number is catastrophic for setting training zones as you are never training what you think you are and will be failing dismally.

Really great video Phill. Can relate to the points on the feeling that your FTP is possibly set too high and suffering training fails on the back of it! Also, interesting to consider the difference between power when testing FTP indoor vs outdoor. I’ve read previously that outdoor FTP could possibly be 20 watts up on indoor… All interesting when thinking about building a good and sensible plan to achieve those gains and not burn out! (which I’ve done to myself recently!! 😳). Hope you’re keeping well and keep this great, massively useful and easy to consume content coming! 😁👍🏻 Chris

it feels like the general takeaway from this is to not be absolute about the numbers unless you have been properly tested - using ftp asa guide together with your experience and feel to make a judgement on where a more realistic threshold level is , and think about that threshold as a zone boundary. very interesting..thanks

Epic video Phil. I've done 2 labtests now, and it's exactly the same for me. The 20min "ftp" test just doesn't work, as it gives a number that is too high. I've tended to start to listen to my body during hard intervals, and correct the required power to what I feel I'm able to sustain (just). We all tend to fixate on a high FTP number, as that's something we can compare to each other, and more is better right 😜But in the end, if you use it to derive your training zones, you shoot yourself in the foot, and in fact probably make the training too hard, and unsustainable, causing more damage that you do good.

Awesome

The problem for me is that no matter how fit I am I always test poorly. It's a mental issue for me. Love your videos!

I’ve thought about the Zwift vs pro test for a long time. This has been one of the best videos on FTP I’ve seen. Any chance of doing a Garmin cycling VO2 max vs pro test? One of my other curiosities.

Brilliant video. Something learned here that I knew was true for was me. Only cycling on Zwift about six months. There is no way do I have the stamina to last one hour at t a power from a ramp test throws out as FTP. I suppose muscle endurance, ligament & tendon capacity and supporting muscles all get a hammering in longer rides that takes much longer to adapt than a 20 balls to the wall effort

for your next foray into physiological profiling, i recommend a dexa scan. knowing how much bone mass, skeletal muscle mass, ffmi, visceral fat (relative to population norms) is quite useful to know. endurance cycling, as you’re aware, doesn’t do much for the former two. you might compare results after a 12 week strength training block. in his diaries alan clark (mp for plymouth south & kensington) was constantly fretting about physical decline. this is how most fellows over 40 treat bone/muscle tissue: as a savings account which is constantly raided, with an ever-dwlindling balance, and seldom added to.

Guilty as charged - I tend to optimistically set my FTP a little higher than it actually is and as a result overtrained on a few occasions with poor results overall. I'm trying the other approach this winter - taking it relative easy so that the body can properly recover between workouts

Great work again. When i review strava data for my friends, i noticed they rarely achieve their FTP for one hour. So their FTP is too high. Thanks for validating what i have been thinking for so long. Your review will help me climb hills better in Spain. Question. Is the threshold influenced by how much carbs you consumed? Since i am more low carbs, i have been feeling a lactate threshold at a higher level but is that a placebo effect or more training. Thanks

this is a great video thanks phill i think 90% of the ciclist are training on the wrong threshold power zone.

To be the ultimate guinea pig for sport scientist you should also do a critical power test in future (peak power output, 3min effort, 12 minute effort) :)

Great content, I do wonder how much impact the bike fit is having here. This fits with my n=1. I use 92% of 20 minute power because of my Sprint physiology and large anaerobic work capacity (W prime of ~25Kj). Interesting to know it may be even lower.

90% much closer for me too. In Feb I went from 205 to 215 based on ramp. I couldn't even finish my repeats. 6 weeks later Ive set FTP back to 205 & getting good results

I just take my best 45min average climb power for ftp. This gives me 30W lower than on 20min test. Must have a good anaerobic system.

You should also compare it to the stair test.

Awesome information

FTP can't BE too high or or too low, it is just a metric. It can be SET too high or too low, obviously.

I had my FTP derived from a 20 minute effort at 302, But I set my FTP @ 290. I base it on my ability to breath and perceived drain on resources. I imagine doing this for an hour or more. Some days are better than others.

13:15 New Brand Deal? 👏👑

Great video Phil. So assume I've got my ballpark figure from the 20min test would you say it would be betterto ear on the side of caution and train slightly below that number especially for workouts where threshold development is the goal? Sweetspot looks like it could be the ideal place to focus these efforts? I'm training for long distances so long sub threshold efforts is what I'll be primarily working on. Vo2max seems easier to estimate if your in the correct zone.

Interesting stuff Phil, I have still a question. I have done an FTP test in a lab. I have added some Watt (+6) to the FTP in Zwift thinking that this will stimulate more and increase FTP over time, is my though right?

i just have one question....were you cooled appropriately with fans in the lab? your rides collectively over the last year run true for an ftp close to 290 if you ask me. you may have spent energy overheating in the lab.

My ftp was 308 8 years ago, yeah I can accept it's "only" 295 now lol

What's sure is that I need to lower my target power "based on FTP" by 20W when training indoors vs outdoors.

It takes me at least 10 minutes of hard riding just to get revved up enough to suck in enough air to go all out. Otherwise I feel like I'm going to suffocate which is a terrible feeling. I hate it.

How much does it actually matter if your ftp is overestimated? It sounds like true ftp should be substantially below the anaerobic threshold anyway, which can only be maintained 20-40 minutes as oposed to 1 hr, according to the lab.

one has to wonder how much ftp varies thru the year. if you are a regular trainer.

Total agree with the explained science but your always going to be able to put out more power on your Wattbike at home as you ride on it every day. Instead of riding on a bike you never have been on before with a little bit of a different set up that your not used to. Did you take any measurements of your normal position and move it over?

Very interesting topping Phil, 100% agree that results of the 20 minute test is a little bit to high. Great video 💪💪🚵‍♂️🚵‍♂️🚵‍♂️

Totally agree with your conclusions but I would actually go further than that and assert that ALL FTP testing is a complete waste of time and here's why. Let's assume that the FTP test you have just done is bang-on. That is obviously just a snapshot in time depending on your current state of fatigue both physically and mentally. Then you use that number to set your training zones and start doing arbitrary workouts based on that number. However, how successful any particular workout is will also depend on how fatigued you are at that particular time. Because of that you don't know if the workout you have chosen is actually contributing anything to your fitness either. It may well just be contributing more fatigue and adversely affect subsequent workouts too. As you have personally observed Phil, anyone who trains seriously and rides consistently should pretty much know what sort of power level they can hold for a significant time be it a time trial, a race on Zwift or climbing an Alp. Conversely, in addition to that for the majority of our riding time we shouldn't be riding at anywhere near that number, especially if you subscribe to a polarised training model so that makes it immaterial anyway. Also the FTP number doesn't just keep going up linearly. As you get fitter it starts to level off and then what does one do when your latest FTP test actually goes down? Most people would just put it down to fatigue and over-training maybe and carry on using the previous number. I love seeing the power numbers when I am training but I also feel that a heart rate monitor and even RPE should also be used to more accurately assess what I am actually experiencing. Even though I have done Zwift 20 minute and ramp tests in the past, I have also come to the conclusion that the number I end up with is not one that I can reliably train to with any confidence of completing say a high-intensity interval workout.

Use Xert and see if you get different results

Your measuring with 2 different powermeters. Even if they both have an accuracy of + or - 2% than you can already have these differences. Besides that, the position on both bikes is completely different. You’re probably way more efficient on your own bike than on a lab bike, ‘cause that position looked very uncomfortable.

Ftp for wath 10,20,40minutes

Interesting video. But why do you put on your mask when you take it off to talk. Just keep it on or take it completely off.

Much prefer a ramp test