There's also the argument for God if the universe never had a beginning also.

Jesus Power ❤ Starts Now.

@@templarroystonofvasey You can always make up an argument. That is mundane. The real question is: can you make a valid and sound argument supported by verifiable objective evidence?

WAIT, you read the comments?

@@Rotten9 No one can do that about anything. All knowledge is based upon faith.

Some smart kids right there

You’re building a solid foundation. Well done!

INCREDIBLE! PRAISE THE LORD!✝️🙏

That’s epic!

All glory be to God! That’s amazing brother!

Have you ever hear "If its too good to be true, it isnt?" - Believe some claims get eternal heaven/paradise/ecstasy... I think you fail to realize for many, non-belief is a consequence of the honest look at the evidence.

I do too

That's why I like that Jordan from ADDICTED FISHING and STAY FISHY ADVENTURES refers to God as THE CREATOR.

If this phrase, "it's too good to be true, it isn't" were to be called too good to be true, then... would this phrase not be true? Is truth too good to not be true? The only routes left there I can see is: If truth is too good to be truth, it'd be a lie. Or if truth is good, but not too good to be unbelievable, then there must be better goods than truth.@@JezuesChavez

As I’ve always said to my kids: “If there is a God, maybe He wants something FOR you; but maybe He wants something FROM you as well.” It’s that 2nd aspect which causes people to NOT want to believe that there is a God.

It is. Its earned faith. Science works. Cemeteries and hospitals are full of unanswered prayers. Oh, wait, let me guess. God works in mysterious ways?

They have not seen it, but have a firm assurance that it will happen. Sounds like Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

@@rius117 faith in spirit claims is a tool of the evil to con the idiots.

There are a few things we did not understand (that were absolutely attributed to god(s), and got people killed for denying that), yet with some time explained by science. Lightning Fire Eclipses Illness Earthquakes Floods Success in War Fertility Illusions ... I find it strange that with any self-doubt we say, since we don't understand the beginning and science could not explain it yet, it has (!) to be god.

"naturalism of the gaps".

Me too! Also big thanks to Ray Comfort for explaining why salvation was necessary. I was an Atheist until I started watching theological content on KZfaq. God uses many tools to lead us to Christ! Praise Him!!!

Unlucky, mate.

@@ChrisR395 he's lucky Mate!

Frank Turk is just making baseless assertions and presenting them as fact.

@@kos-mos1127 "I don't like it therefore its baseless" 🤓

Hallelujah!

I’ve been struggling with these comments this helped a lot thank you so much

That's a poor reason

Jesus gave us a Spirit that leads us into all truth! The Good Shepherd protects and helps the sheep! You can trust him help you my friend!!

@@kladies3021 What's a spirit? How do we confirm spirits exist? How do spirits lead us to truth? You're making lots of claims

It started in the garden. Man's desire to become like God drove his choice for the tree that leads to death and sin was born into existence!!!

What exactly are you referring to when you use the word God?

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 Good question, I'm referring to the God of the Bible.

Well said

@@2EdgedSword77 And what exactly is the God of the bible?

Wasn't his line tho; he's quoting Aristotle.

@@mattk6719 never said it's his line. Just that its a line he uses a lot. Turek literally says "as Aristotle said" 3:20

It is actually a dumb quote. He is using it in the context of saying that science has made a finding that the universe came from nothing. That is not all what big bang cosmology states. Frank is really bad at science and his quotes make it even more pathetic.

@@Rotten9 lol okay bud🤣🤣

@@mattk6719 yeah Ik

That is, because he got none. 🤣

Because existence without time is stasis.

I don’t think your mind is that limited, I think your BRAIN is. Remember your brain is just a part of your body. It may be the closest thing to a “mind”, but I think a mind is something beyond space and time. It’s what makes us children of God.

@@kos-mos1127 So you're saying God doesn't change.

@@brandenmarcum430 Mind is not beyond space and time as it is a model of the brain.

@@logicianbones God cannot act or affect anything as being outside of space and time means that you cannot do anything let alone think. An action requires a change from one state to another. Without time and space there is just stasis. The act of creation requires the act of changing your state because God would have went from not being the creator to being the creator. For example before Henry Ford invented the automobile he worked for Edison Illuminating Company as an engineer. After he invented the automobile he became the inventor of the automobile. The transition from an engineer to the inventor of the automobile happens within time. In order of God to create the Cosmos he would have to be inside the Cosmos in order to create the Cosmos. So essentially this creates a paradox with the Cosmos having to exist for God to emerge and God has to exist in order to create the Cosmos. This is an example of a closed time loop where the Cosmos starts and closes the loop with God as the centre in order to have an observable radius.

Interesting. I laughed at how ridiculous his leaps of logic are and it reaffirmed my lack of faith. However that is the fun thing about perspective. People can witness the same thing and have completely different take aways. Best of luck on your journey

​@@d.columbia9603 I am curious at what "leaps of logic" made you laugh?

@@d.columbia9603 this argument alone is the beginning of all arguments. If we start here at ground zero, this stands. He didn’t say God of the Bible as many get offended but remember God is a title, this God or creator is revealed by what we see in the physical world. This is really easy to understand. Why does this not seem to give you comfort? It’s logically understandable without any theology, there’s no other explanation. What do you think is a better understanding?

​@@sethl7858You're making an argument from personal incredulity. It's a fallacy.

@@nitsujism how so, what’s a better explanation? Your answer is just as fallible but mine is credible. And I all respect. This is pretty logical. Not sure how you fail to understand

That's like saying bricks can't go to make a wall because a brick isn't a wall. It's a composition division fallacy.

And if a creator is plausible, then a resurrected Jesus is plausible.

@@nitsujism the wall has no free will either. molecules, atoms, particles are determined by physics and chemistry, no matter how complex the mixture. That's why materialists like Sam Harris deny free will, my dear. That's consistent with materialism. But 1) the natural sciences cannot tell us whether matter and energy is all there is, hence materialism and determinism is a faith. 2) it's an absurd faith: without free will you couldn't even control your words and convictions incl your faith in naturalism. That would be the end of rationality and science altogether.

No, what you seemingly can’t understand are emergent properties.

@@nitsujism That’s like saying you don’t understand emergentism. It isn’t a composition/division fallacy. It is a paradigm shift from “the whole is the sum of its parts” to “the whole is more than the sum of its parts”. You can’t explain (via composition) how; or why matter doesn’t self-replicate but life does. Self-replication is an emergent property.

So you become even more gullible 😂

Thanks brother!

@nschlaak You do realize his arguments are fallacious don't you?

he commits a sin (Jesus did not tell a lie) when he says there were humans on the earth before Adam; WC Lane also commits a heresy, as shown on Wikipedia .... that Christ did not have full knowledge as the Father does

​@Seekthetruth768 Mind saying how his arguments are fallacious, buddy? Blow our minds with your wisdom. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Remember the atheist formula: insult God insult Christians insult Christianity = they win the argument. Makes zero sense.

That’s because your credulous, ask Frank to provide a supernatural mechanism for anything god has created ? your answer will be word salad .

So you are reading the Bible, great, what do think about the following verses where Yahweh/Jesus slaughters babies and the unborn by burning them alive in Genesis 19: 24-25; putting them to the sword in 1 Samuel 15: 3 and drowning them in Genesis 7: 21?

@@CelestialSky-om4te So you find peace and goodwill in the slaughter of babies and the unborn. You are right in that I have nothing to offer in response to that.

Wow, thanks for sharing this!

​@downenout8705 so what? What's your point? People haven't changed, last year alone approximately 73 million innocent humans were murdered in the womb. Life is cheap.

@@troywalstra9300 The Christian god certainly would agree with you that "life is cheap" after all it did supposedly designed a womb that has spontaneously slaughtered (guess you would call it murder) close to a quarter of all the unborn since the dawn of humanity. I'm just curious why anyone would want to worship such an utterly depraved deity.

Turek is a dumb man's genius.

Believing anything with unprovable evidence is absolutely not rational I agree. This is true whether it is an atheist or a religious person. You don’t have to believe just say I don’t know because in reality, you really don’t.

Thank you so much!

Spiritual world? Do we have any way whatsoever to confirm that spirits exist?

​@@crazyprayingmantis5596Are thoughts material? Are our minds material?

​@@lauramann8275Do you have examples of thoughts and a mind that isn't attached to a brain?

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 A spiritual being would be an immaterial being. If you watched the video Turek made a good case for God being an immaterial being.

@@crazyprayingmantis5596What would God have to do for you to prove His existence? What more could He do beyond the creation of the universe to prove He is God? Give you $50 million dollars? Or Make you ruler of the world? I think He could not prove to you He is God because like most greedy, selfish unrighteous people what ever He did wouldn’t be enough. You don’t want a holy righteous gracious merciful God, who is omnipotent,omniscient, omnipresent and loves in abundance, you want a pushover, a god you can manipulate.

Outside of time? So at no time has god existed.

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 God created time so there has never been a time he was not.

@@stillraven9415 Why would time need to be created? But you just said God exists outside of time, so in no time does it exist, because there's no time for it to exist. So it doesn't exist inside of time, which is where we exist. So how would it effect us?

@crazyprayingmantis5596 time and matter were created at the same time. Without mater there is no time. Space/time are linked together. Can't have one without the other.

True 😂

I’m old enough and found it quite funny!

@@narclem Me too... almost choked on my coffee..lol

I understood it too. Just in case someone sees this and lacks knowledge of this movie reference, the movie is Cecil B. Demil's The Ten Commandments.

@@ggpt9641 A movie I think every child should grow up watching... Top 10 movies of all time...

Part of the good news (what Gospel literally means) of Jesus Christ's death burial and resurrection is: In a finite amount of time left, you, Brandon, Dr. Frank, and.... me. We'll get that meet up in heaven.

With our relatively feeble minds (compared to God's) we can imagine some sort of virtual reality, an Xbox and team of game programmers can do a better job of it, but how much more sophisticated is the mind of God than a billion human minds using our best supercomputers?

Christianity PROVES science whereas a typical scientist is looking for the reverse.......if they just consider the ORDER in the micro and macro systems they study and catalog every day their attitude might be different but then FAITH is not a thing of the mind but is a belief of the HEART

Yup. Regurgitating Billy Craig’s error on this doesn’t look good on Franko either.

Can you explain this because as written it makes no sense.

@@Rotten9 😭😂

​@@Rotten9 , Essentially, what is being conveyed is that there's no free will, which means everything is the product of naturalistic mechanisms, including what one does and does not believe. Thanks for playing.

Apes already have concepts of fairness and moral codes and abide by it. Sure they break it too .... but hey...like us...they are cheeky sinners.

Actually, no, it doesn't. First, Turek (and WLC, who originated the "Kalam" argument) make the mistake of conflating the whole (the universe, or space/time) with the parts INSIDE the whole (objects composed of matter/energy, which change form but are never created or destroyed, so far as can be determined). So while we can argue to a degree that FORMS of matter/energy need "causes", we cannot demonstrate space/time had a "beginning" and therefore a "cause"; remember, ALL the universe's matter/energy was present when the Big Bang (actually a rapid expansion and cooling, NOT an explosion) occurred. Second, apologists such as Turek and Craig try a "hack", by smuggling their conclusion into their premise, which AUTOMATICALLY renders the argument invalid. To elucidate, WLC and Frank Turek (in this video) are starting with the premise that there are two categories of objects: those that BEGIN to exist (and have a cause) and those that exist without any origin point (uncaused), with the second category being composed of only ONE entity, the Abrahamic (Christian version) God. Do you see the immediate problem? It's made obvious if you present this as a "logical" argument in another, more straightforward form: Frank Turek is saying there are two categories, the universe (which has an origin and therefore a cause) and the God he worships, so therefore there must be God. See? That's valid reasoning.

​@@profpurgewow, you make it sound as if you were there when it happened.

The Bible says, "no one knows the mind of God", but that doesn't stop theists from telling you all about Gods wishes, traits, goals & what he wants you to do with your life. LMAO

I respond with nature = God. They say nature, this and nature that but they can't explain nature.

faith [feɪθ] noun 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something: 2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof:

@@chrishilliard3031 Source?

@@chrishilliard3031 trust in something - like a naturalistic explanation for everything?

@@lauramann8275 Good point. God is not unnatural. He is super-natural.

He doesn’t have enough faith

repent and believe in the gospel brother

My eyse confused and was thinking they are in the same room

LMAO “I don’t have enough hamburgers to be a vegetarian”

I'm not sure that's a compliment.

Ancient peoples who believe in circular time (and what that circular time really was is complex) yet they still believed in a Creator. There is no scientific theory of circular time.

@@jsbrads1 A-theory, Block, Growing block, B-theory, C-theory, ect...

The Creator KNOWS that he authorized and sent Jesus Christ from heaven to earth thousands of years ago to preach and teach the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" to imperfect, suffering, and dying human beings. Jesus Christ KNOWS that thousands of years ago, he revealed that the Creator is the True and Sovereign God as written in John 17: 3 and exposed Satan the Devil as the Father of Lies and Murderer of human beings as written in John 8: 44 The CREATOR'S FAVOR and REWARD for his WORSHIPPERS and FOLLOWERS of JESUS CHRIST Jesus Christ KNOWS that lowly, ordinary, kind, and respectful persons on earth who rejected Atheism, Evolutionism and the teachings and doctrines of his enemies about "Trinity", "heaven and hellfire", "Armageddon", "rapture", and "reincarnation" as worthless and useless and willingly submit instead to his authority and believe his teachings about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" as written in Matthew 28: 18, Luke 4: 43, and John 11: 25, 26 are his Followers and Worshippers of the Creator on earth who can be trusted with anything and are worthy and deserving of the loving, kind, and merciful Creator's favor and reward of ETERNAL LIFE and existence without sufferings, pains, griefs, sickness, and death as written in Revelation 21: 3, 4 The VALUE and IMPORTANCE of the "RESURRECTION of the DEAD" The Creator KNOWS that all human beings will just become worthless and useless dusts on earth after their deaths just like the animals as written in Ecclesiastes 3: 19: 20 ; 9: 5, 6 but he knows too that he will not let his loving, kind, and respectful worshippers who died recently and thousands of years ago like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Job, Naomi, Ruth, King David, Daniel, Jesus Christ's followers, and many others to remain as worthless and useless dusts on earth forever, instead, in the right and proper time, he will let Jesus Christ RESURRECT them back to life so they can all happily and abundantly live and exist on earth forever as submissive and obedient subjects of the "KINGDOM of GOD" or His Kingdom and fully enjoy his and his Christ's eternal love, kindness, goodness, generosities, compassions, favors, and blessings for eternity under the loving and kind rulership, guidance, and protection of Jesus Christ as his Chosen King and Ruler of the heavens and the earth as written in Revelation 11: 15.

@@jaflenbond7854 Bible Babble non sense!

@@twosheds1749 All Atheists, Evolutionists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions in the world are FREE to mock and degrade the Bible as just a worthless and useless book of lies, myths, fictions, fantasies, and fairy tales. All Atheists, Evolutionists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions in the world are FREE to - 1. mock and degrade the Creator as worthless, useless, and undeserving to be honored and respected as the True and Sovereign God 2. mock and degrade the authority and teachings of Jesus Christ about the "Kingdom of God" and "Resurrection of the Dead" as worthless and useless, no value whatsoever in their lives and existence All Atheists, Evolutionists, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and fanatics of all kinds of Religions in the world are FREE to live and exist on earth wherever, whatever, and however they want to live and exist. Are you still not satisfied with all your FREEDOM?

Nonexistence is easy to accept for you because it allows you to silence your conscience that contradicts your worldview. Your conscience tells you that you know good and evil. When you commit evil, your conscience condemns you and tells you the only way out is to accept the Saviour and the Grace of God. That is why nonexistence is what you accept but God loved you so much that He died for you to be saved. I pray that your eyes will be open to that truth. There is no other way

@@ngartolaLOL What are you talking about!? Let me explain for you. Good and evil are subjective accounts and dependant on the values of the society you grew up in! For example, homosexuality was illegal in the past and considered evil. Many more developed societies have grown out of this self righteous belief and now we know it does no harm to anyone and is a condition of genes. If God is God and made all of us as you claim than he/she/it would know what would happened and indeed made it happen! That's your god argument destroyed right there!

The last three years has shown me full stop how “science” works. Shocking how little of what is advertised as “science” has any actual science behind it.

That's a cute double standard. In context of reasoning from effect to cause; and given the effect of apples falling from trees how do you know that gravity is the cause? Could the cause be the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Could the cause be the curvature of spacetime? Could the cause be something else - something unknown to us? I guess you can never admit you don't know. You are incapable of it.

@@tgenov Incapable of what? Gravity exists in science! I dont know what started the big Bang, there you go dip shit!! I just admitted I did'nt know something! LOL Creationists have to pretend a god did it with Zero evidence to support it!

Are you sure about that? Please examine your own refusal to say the same thing... it's called denial.

@@CLAYMEISTER I am fine with admitting I dont know something. That is what science does when there is insufficient evidence! Ask me a question? I can prove it! Can YOU?

@@twosheds1749 Prove that gravity exists 🤷‍♂️

No, he's simply repeating well-known apologist PRATTS (points refuted already a thousand times). Sigh.

If you mean he makes as much sense talking as Ozzy Osbourne, then I agree. He's a rock star.

Wow such strong and well thought out arguments.

_"the universe (or any universe) consists of time, space, & matter. Anything consisting of time is by definition bound to time"_ There are still plenty of possibilities there. Time could have existed before our universe. A different type of time could have existed before our universe. There are models of eternal cyclical universes. Our universe could be part of a larger natural reality.

_" And that means that anything which is eternal must be timeless, spaceless, and immaterial."_ This is gibberish that theist say so much that they stop thinking about it. What does it even mean for something to be 'timeless'? Can you show that it's possible? This is gibberish that theist say so much that they stop thinking about it. What does it even mean for something to be 'spaceless'? Can you show that it's possible? Immaterial in what sense? Is it abstract? Do you know what is immaterial? Things that don't exist. Can you demonstrate your claim about the immaterial?

"Good logic, as always from Dr. Turek." Logic and Turek in one sentence is an oxymoron. LMAO.

“I don’t have enough hamburgers to be a vegetarian” LMAO

From what I see of Frank's videos you can't help but agree with Dawkins. Especially when it comes to science. Frank is terrible!

Why would Dawkins need to repeat himself? We heard it the first time.

How would God get to Jan 15th if he's eternal?

​@@tTtt-ho3tqGod is outside the universe. We inside the universe got to Jan 15.

@@markhorton3994 You mean there's no time outside of the universe, where God exists. Can anything "exists" in no time? But God is special?

Since you claim that there is something that can be infinite how did you rule out a material thing?

​@@tTtt-ho3tqGod created the space time continuum and everything in it including us. He can understand things we can't including how He can be outside time, and quantum physics

So what is your theistic explanation for the origin of everything? Can you explain this to the same degree and depth you would expect an atheist to explain it? //Atheists think it's all an accident spawning from.... something they can't explain. But somehow that makes more sense to them.// I've yet to come across an atheist who thinks that way. We can't explain the origin of everything. We can explain the origin of some things. But when it comes to the origin of the existence of reality, we have no good ideas. We do have some speculations. I reckon you folk are in the same boat.

No. Atheists are just people who aren't convinced there's a god. End of definition. An atheist might think anything or nothing about where everything came from. Example: all newborn babies are atheists. They have not been convinced there is a god, and they have no thoughts at all on where everything came from. Why do theists have such a hard time understanding that there is no such thing as an "atheist worldview" that we all subscribe to? Atheist just means someone who does not believe in any gods. If I tell you I am an atheist, that tells you NOTHING else about me.

What’s (obvious) is you have to misrepresent atheists. Try again

@@rolandwatts3218 What we do know: Evolution: rules out Adam & Eve, sciences: rule out the flood. How many other lies in the bible?

Actually, it does. Take some vikings around a campfire when a thunderstorm breaks loose. One viking says "It's Thor that rides the clouds and hits them with his mighty hammer". Another viking says "I don't know what causes it - but it is certainly no God". I agree with Viking number two.

Your argument needs further discussion. Do you truly mean to use INABILITY to believe or did you mean the REFUSAL to believe? What are examples of those who are unable to believe? What beliefs must one hold to avoid damnation for eternity? To get to the bottom of your argument ask more questions, in fact, ask all the questions in your heart and mind and be open to the answers. This takes work and a sound mind. Each of us is responsible only for our own status in eternity... no one else's. Are any of us more righteous and just than God? Being damned for eternity is His arena. Let the Righteous Judge sort all that out... no doubt, it is a fearful thing to be judged, but our sole job is to be sober and vigilant to respond to the truth that rises up in our being and not to ignore it. Do you also realize that Jesus paid the price for our redemption? Believe this and there is no eternal dambation. Just simple belief. Even if we do ignore the Truth and Reality that surfaces in our hearts every day (and we do!), we have literally millions of opportunities, second chances and start-overs to get it right. This is God's grace. If there is the slightest response or obedience to the righteousness of God in our lives, this is redemptive and leads to growth in life and the brighter day. The real absurdity is to deny truth and bury our heads in the sand.

Also damned is the wrong word, you mean separation from God, and yes if you don't want to serve God you don't have to live with him

You know what you are saying here makes no sense. Can you re-state this so that it is coherent?

​@Seekthetruth768 it makes sense. If you don't get it, then we'll assume you don't want to get it

We do not know what the limits are to time or space, or if there are any. It does not make sense to put such limits especially if the observable universe can be measured to about 14 billion years from the big bang along with the many pre-big bang proposals.

​@@Rotten9, Maybe you should look up "coherent". Thanks for playing English as a second language.

Explain it then.

That same finite and flawed logic is exactly why God is knocked out of the picture. The reverse is happening, where we are seeing that the finite and flawed logic has failed us times past, with explanations of God or other supernatural kinds. So, instead what we are looking for is reasons to include God in the picture at all.

@@Eliza-rg4vw interesting. Because thus far what i see is haters of God doing any and every thing to get rid of him...I find it so interesting how everything bad in the world..ie..wars are blamed on someone who you claim doesn't exist. Mankind would love to get rid of him, sorry ain't gonna happen

@@The_Realm_is_RealUnfortunately, they forget we have free will & also there’s a Devil. But then they’ll say like “Well, Why does God allow us to do these bad things?” Or something like that. That’s when you just need to look at the Word to see that God doesn’t stop us because He made a promise to give us the CHOICE to use our free-will in the best way we see fit instead of having us locked in as robots but unfortunately, many people out there don’t realize this information because they do not read the Bible or just take it out of context.

God is currently unscientific and offers no extra explanatory power for any natural phenomena. Job 36:29-32 says, "Who can understand how he spreads out the clouds, how he thunders from his pavilion? See how he scatters his lightning about him, bathing the depths of the sea. This is the way he governs the nations and provides food in abundance. He fills his hands with lightning and commands it to strike its mark." There is no need to have any understanding of meteorology when you can say that God controls the weather.

@@haggismcbaggis9485 Exactly. God is not withheld based on Earthly logic. That’s why He’s God. I mean, the guy literally rose people from the dead, for goodness sakes 😂 If He could not do the illogical, He wouldn’t be what He claims He is & what the Bible says. It would mean He is limited. Fortunately, He is what He says He is.

@@blanktrigger8863 incorrect, it's like saying morality isn't an issue in the New Testament.... which needs a response.

@@blanktrigger8863 he can't strawman when he's clarifying what you are strawmanning. Like what? Lol

@blanktrigger8863 that's not how strawman works. Regardless, he claimed the Sabbath is not commanded in the New Testament which it most certainly is. Not only is it mentioned 55 times in the new testament, it is declared as commanded in the New Covenant in Luke 23:56. Frank completely denies the Sabbath, and he needs to respond to it.

@@blanktrigger8863 hilarious, if someone just denies the existence of something that's not proving it.

@@blanktrigger8863 you're claiming a straw man when the guy corrects your misrepresentation of his statement. Nice projection, go through the steps

The Kalam fails on several points. If something cannot cause itself, then the cause of the universe cannot lay in itself. It has to be caused by something outside itself. We cannot know about this realm, since we cannot make observations there - which makes it according to Popper an fundamentally unscientific question. Apart from that, we can either assume this realm is ruled by the same laws as in our universe - which makes the "fine tuned universe" moot, since obviously those laws pertain even beyond our universe - they're "superuniversal". Or we can assume it is *not* governed by the same laws, which opens the possibility that causality is broken there - which nullifies the basis of the Kalam.

Thank you. Yesterday, I was thinking about many other things wrong with this video, including the Kalam, but you made it clearer for me. Appreciate that. I hope believers realize I am not trying to take away their right to the art of religion. I wouldn’t want anyone to take my preferred art away from me, either, even if it has some serious problems. I’m just making the positive claim, that Turek’s arguments are unacademic, outdated, and a harmful way of thinking.