Daniel Dennett: Stop Telling People They Don't Have Free Will | Big Think

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9 жыл бұрын

Daniel Dennett: Stop Telling People They Don't Have Free Will
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Philosopher Daniel Dennett takes issue with neuroscientists who argue that humans don't have free will. In this video, Dennett demonstrates an intuition pump (or thought experiment) featuring a "nefarious neurosurgeon" who lies to a patient with obsessive-compulsive disorder. Dennett argues that telling people that free will is an illusion makes them less concerned about the negative implications of their actions.
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DANIEL DENNETT:
Daniel C. Dennett is the author of Intuition Pumps and Other Tools for Thinking, Breaking the Spell, Freedom Evolves, and Darwin's Dangerous Idea and is University Professor and Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy, and Co-Director of the Center for Cognitive Studies at Tufts University. He lives with his wife in North Andover, Massachusetts, and has a daughter, a son, and a grandson. He was born in Boston in 1942, the son of a historian by the same name, and received his B.A. in philosophy from Harvard in 1963. He then went to Oxford to work with Gilbert Ryle, under whose supervision he completed the D.Phil. in philosophy in 1965. He taught at U.C. Irvine from 1965 to 1971, when he moved to Tufts, where he has taught ever since, aside from periods visiting at Harvard, Pittsburgh, Oxford, and the École Normale Supérieure in Paris.
His first book, Content and Consciousness, appeared in 1969, followed by Brainstorms (1978), Elbow Room (1984), The Intentional Stance (1987), Consciousness Explained (1991), Darwin's Dangerous Idea (1995), Kinds of Minds (1996), and Brainchildren: A Collection of Essays 1984-1996. Sweet Dreams: Philosophical Obstacles to a Science of Consciousness, was published in 2005. He co-edited The Mind's I with Douglas Hofstadter in 1981 and he is the author of over three hundred scholarly articles on various aspects on the mind, published in journals ranging from Artificial Intelligence and Behavioral and Brain Sciences to Poetics Today and the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism.
Dennett gave the John Locke Lectures at Oxford in 1983, the Gavin David Young Lectures at Adelaide, Australia, in 1985, and the Tanner Lecture at Michigan in 1986, among many others. He has received two Guggenheim Fellowships, a Fulbright Fellowship, and a Fellowship at the Center for Advanced Studies in Behavioral Science. He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1987.
He was the Co-founder (in 1985) and Co-director of the Curricular Software Studio at Tufts, and has helped to design museum exhibits on computers for the Smithsonian Institution, the Museum of Science in Boston, and the Computer Museum in Boston
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TRANSCRIPT:
Daniel Dennett: Well, let me trot out one of my recent favorites which I devised to jangle the nerves of neuroscientists who've been going around saying that neuroscience shows that we don't have free will. I think their reasons for saying that are ill considered and moreover that what they're doing is apt to be mischievous and doing some real harm. So I concocted a little thought experiment. A little intuition pump to suggest that. So this is the case of the nefarious neurosurgeon who treats a patient who has obsessive compulsive disorder by inserting a little microchip in his brain which controls the OCD, the obsessive compulsive disorder.
Now there is such a chip. It's been developed in the Netherlands and it works really quite well. That's science fact. But now here comes science fiction. So the neurosurgeon, after she's operated on the guy, sewed him all up. "So I've got - your OCD's under control now you'll be happy to learn. But moreover our team here will be monitoring you 24-7. And we're going to be controlling everything you do from now on. You'll think you have free will. You'll think you're making your own decisions but really you won't have free will at all. Free will is an illusion that we will maintain while controlling you. Goodbye, have a nice life." Sends him out the door.
Well, he believes her. She had a shiny lab and lots of degrees and diplomas and all that. So what does he do? Well, he -- thinking he doesn't have free will anymore he gets a little self-indulgent, a little bit aggressive. He's a little negligent in how he decides what to do. And pretty soon by indulging some of...
Read the full transcript at bigthink.com/videos/daniel-de...

Пікірлер: 2 400
@lless96
@lless96 9 жыл бұрын
So basically he's saying "don't tell idiots that free will doesn't exist because they will take you literally. I know it doesn't exist, but just don't tell the idiots that"
@khaledyasser8293
@khaledyasser8293 3 жыл бұрын
“Free will exists because if you tell people it doesn’t you’re a bad boy”
@prakritisingha6906
@prakritisingha6906 3 жыл бұрын
Beg the question and it will bend to you.
@denzeldumalag1
@denzeldumalag1 3 жыл бұрын
Think friend. We’re not using our brains today.
@JP-sd7di
@JP-sd7di 2 жыл бұрын
That’s not at all what he said. Wow. Never though I’d defend him of all people.
@calebm6818
@calebm6818 2 жыл бұрын
He's not arguing that free will exists here. He does that elsewhere, but that's not the point of the video. He's specifically claiming that regardless of whether or not free will exists, it would be bad to convince people that it doesn't exist.
@user-pq3xp8kx6e
@user-pq3xp8kx6e 2 жыл бұрын
@@JP-sd7di y its weird to u
@horrido666
@horrido666 9 жыл бұрын
The doctors didn't turn his free will off. They turned his illusion of free will off. This is the first Dennett I've been exposed to, and it's not a good start.
@Drowsong
@Drowsong 8 жыл бұрын
+Rodrigo Gallinari Knowing that decisions MATTER doesn't mean we have free will. It is possible to be wildly successful while not believing in free will.
@biasedlemmings553
@biasedlemmings553 6 жыл бұрын
EndtheRessentiment: IMO Dan S's second and third statement are true. Dan is an excellent philosopher, but his *HUGE* shot at Sam Harris in this video are petty and amateurish... his "intuition pump" (Jesus Dan, it's just called a thought experiment.) really has very little to do with whether or not neuroscience has anything, or the final thing, to say about free will. Dennet doesn't think there is free will either, but he finds "room" for it, claims to be a compatibilist (determinist with extra shit). Even I think the universe, the way *WE* interact with the universe is completely deterministic. Dan's greatest fear is that the "common man" will be exposed to this thought and freak the fuck out, hence his desire to put something *plus* determinism as the real answer. Matt D. thinks he can convince Sam Harris (or at least give it a good try) that he, as well, is a compatibilist. I don't think Sam will fall for any of it. The determined laws of mathematics, physics and biology all add up to determinism. Our minds are simply a product of our brains that can now be measured to have thoughts that happened before they were thought. Sounds very much like an AI program to me (but no, I'm not nuts, I'm not going all connspiracy on you!). The way our individual lives run is determined by our physical makeup (even to a subatomic level) and minds are determined by the way evolution has shaped them over 4 billion years and how they interact with our unique set of physiology. I have a massive hypothetic outline of this idea, but I'm mostly convinced that this is probably how the free will prolem works.
@Siberius-
@Siberius- 6 жыл бұрын
Biased Lemmings - Definitely check out "Rationality Rules" video where he had a conversation with Matt Dillahunty on this.
@anassrydip3238
@anassrydip3238 2 ай бұрын
Same here
@igora50
@igora50 6 жыл бұрын
There is a problem with the first analogy. Convincing someone you are in control of them (which means you have freewill and they do not), is completely different than convincing someone that NO ONE has freewill.
@existentialbaby
@existentialbaby 4 жыл бұрын
i dont see a problem, in both cases personal liability is lost.
@igora50
@igora50 4 жыл бұрын
I don't remember the video, but yeah I agree. Personal liability doesn't make sense
@tepisrain335
@tepisrain335 3 жыл бұрын
No not really because they both are basically control of information, and ways to control someone, and result in the same outcome, one is to control one person, one is to control a population
@igora50
@igora50 3 жыл бұрын
@@tepisrain335 How does convincing someone that no one has freewill control the population? I'm not following
@tepisrain335
@tepisrain335 3 жыл бұрын
@@igora50 because convincing someone they have no free will gives the ones convincing the upper hand, it gives them the ability to control you, there is no difference in convincing one person vs convincing millions just the number of convinced, you are still restricting people's ability to chose, either as a cruel joke or so you can make the choices for them, all a system of control
@AGEOFAENYA
@AGEOFAENYA 8 жыл бұрын
We need to study the correlation between beard length and wisdom.
@stalinmatos3296
@stalinmatos3296 5 жыл бұрын
NICK ALIMONOS lol
@jordanwalker7076
@jordanwalker7076 5 жыл бұрын
Judging by this video, it will be a negative correlation.
@Arcaryon
@Arcaryon 3 жыл бұрын
Age implicates wisdom. But it's by no means a reliable implication. Like a young man who has a beard that may appear older - until you start to talk to him.
@modavoodabadi4930
@modavoodabadi4930 3 жыл бұрын
😂 of course
@510tuber
@510tuber 3 жыл бұрын
@@Arcaryon The problem with these kind of videos is people will make comments like yours thinking they sound intelligent.
@Jacob-Vivimord
@Jacob-Vivimord 9 жыл бұрын
"We have free will because telling people we don't have free will is irresponsible." Sorry, that doesn't really cut it.
@bluecrossings5942
@bluecrossings5942 6 жыл бұрын
Mr. King Kong Shoo shoo dog, get lost shoo shoo
@martingrof1685
@martingrof1685 5 жыл бұрын
It perfectly obvious you dont have free will, because your choices are made before you are of them lol
@Hugon19
@Hugon19 5 жыл бұрын
nothing cuts it... thats the problem. nothing. its a belief
@MindandFaith
@MindandFaith 5 жыл бұрын
I won't listen to you because you don't have free will.
@sevdeawesome7861
@sevdeawesome7861 5 жыл бұрын
Mr. King Kong you give off the dangerous impression that you haven’t read any of the counter arguments to your beliefs.
@jamuscarson2868
@jamuscarson2868 8 жыл бұрын
That thought experiment as an analogy is so flawed...
@EdwinDalorzo
@EdwinDalorzo 3 жыл бұрын
I agree. The major flaw for me is the argument that if an individual knows he has no free will then he is going to behave immorally. It is just as valid to not have free will and behave morally. A second problem is that if there is indeed no free will (as the neurosurgeon made the patient believe), he is proposing the neurosurgeon should keep the patient in ignorance to protect him from getting in trouble from misbehaving. If there is no free will, the patient has a right to know it unless he explicitly says he prefers to live in ignorance of the truth. Finally, if the neurosurgeon does not truly know if there is free will or not, then he would be lying to the patient, and that would be wrong whether the patient misbehaves or not. The bottom line is that this analogy is crap and there is no such thing as libertarian free will, be serious!
@88mphDrBrown
@88mphDrBrown 3 жыл бұрын
It's flat out pathetic
@MichaelFairhurst
@MichaelFairhurst 3 жыл бұрын
This analogy is merely begging the question. It assumes telling people they don't have free will is bad, in order to make the case that telling people they don't have free will is bad.
@calebm6818
@calebm6818 2 жыл бұрын
@@EdwinDalorzo Dennett is not a libertarian when it comes to free will. He is a compatibilist.
@calebm6818
@calebm6818 2 жыл бұрын
@@MichaelFairhurst The point of the analogy isn't to make an empirical claim about what will happen if people are told that free will doesn't exist. You're right that thought experiments can't generally show that; empirical evidence is needed, which, incidentally, he gives in the video. Maybe you didn't watch that far. In any case, the point of the analogy was to show that *if* something like that happened, then the people in the clinic telling the patient that he doesn't have free will did something bad.
@aguy559
@aguy559 2 жыл бұрын
“If people find out the truth, they might turn bad.” “Let’s keep it from them.”
@Locrian1
@Locrian1 2 жыл бұрын
Nope, he;s saying that people are being told a lie (there is no free will) and that is morally wrong. And, sure, if people did find out the truth (that there is Compatiblist free will), that would do more good than harm.
@user-ru1rd6ff1t
@user-ru1rd6ff1t 2 жыл бұрын
@@Locrian1 what are you talking about? dennet believes there is no free will, the difference is that he believes our legal system and morality require us to believe that it does. thus the need for both justifies the belief of free will, instead of the reverse, which is what conventional and traditional views are.
@alexgonzo5508
@alexgonzo5508 2 жыл бұрын
I think you hit it right on the nose, i've considered this point often. It is exceedingly obvious that free will is an illusion of feeling, that whether the universe is deterministic or indeterministic the idea of free will is absurd. In one case all is determined from initial conditions, and in the other case things can not be determined at any point, resulting in no free will either way. These are the only two options, there is no third option. Everything Dennett describes in these experiments is explainable by cause and effect (no mystery in that respect). The scientists are influencing (causing) an effect in the patient or subject. Depending on what is done or said to the subject (cause), the subject will react to it (effect, not free will). The problem i believe that some of the smarter philosophers have discovered is that the illusion of free will is necessary to maintain in the public mind (cause) in order to in turn maintain a healthier society (effect). This is not the case with everyone because some people realize that it does not matter if one believes or not, they simply keep on acting as they were (AS IF they had free will), but some people get confused and think they need to act in some arbitrary accordance with not believing in free will (this is an effect). So many philosopher i think that have discovered this fact of life make an effort to foster the belief in free will in the masses even though they themselves do not believe it (a white lie, perfectly reasonable in context with the big picture of society). I guess you can call it a "philosophical conspiracy" (cause) to maintain order (effect), lol. Oh well, let it be then.
@neonspandex3419
@neonspandex3419 Жыл бұрын
Free will is cringe
@lrvogt1257
@lrvogt1257 Жыл бұрын
@@Locrian1 : There is no reason we should behave any worse if we understand we don't have free will. As Sabine Hossenfelder points out; If you do things to harm others they will take measures to stop you.
@MechanicaMenace
@MechanicaMenace 9 жыл бұрын
Is it just me or has a professional philosopher just made an appeal to consequences?
@Markus9705
@Markus9705 9 жыл бұрын
It's not just you.
@spinycrayfish
@spinycrayfish 9 жыл бұрын
Yes, but did not all 4 horsemen in their round table discussion agree that there were circumstances where such a path would be morally right? It's not like he's changed stance on the matter...
@MechanicaMenace
@MechanicaMenace 9 жыл бұрын
spinycrayfish he's still using a fallacy as his main argument though...
@spinycrayfish
@spinycrayfish 9 жыл бұрын
...but at a certain point strict adherence to logical reasoning is of little concern. If I have a truth - or merely suspect a possible truth, as is the current status of free will - that will cause great enough damage, it is well worth considering not revealing it. Even more so if we are not certain. I'm sure you can imagine scenarios where the truth will be more damaging to society than ignorance.
@MechanicaMenace
@MechanicaMenace 9 жыл бұрын
I can imagine no situation where revealing the truth would be more damaging than suppressing it, especially when your "concerns" are as convoluted and so obviously just a way to try and suppress a view you disagree with but can't legitimately argue against as Dennett is doing here
@GabrielSparkletits
@GabrielSparkletits 9 жыл бұрын
We all know Neuroscientist is just a codeword for Sam Harris :D
@Red-rj7sr
@Red-rj7sr 6 жыл бұрын
Mr. King Kong bet you love your daddy Jordan Peterson.
@Red-rj7sr
@Red-rj7sr 6 жыл бұрын
Mr. King Kong your attempts to troll me are pathetic lmao. Just stop embarrassing yourself, for your own sake.
@Red-rj7sr
@Red-rj7sr 6 жыл бұрын
Mr. King Kong I have now lost interest in this conversation.
@meowanameow956
@meowanameow956 5 жыл бұрын
What is this? A Big Think or a Big Imagination???
@MFink-oq5hy
@MFink-oq5hy 5 жыл бұрын
@Mr. King Kong Just wanted to ping you to remind you that 4 months ago you embarrassed yourself in this thread. You suck at life. Carry on.
@jaywasd
@jaywasd 8 жыл бұрын
You gave no argument against the idea that free will doesn't exist...you just tried to say we shouldn't tell people because they suck...FailFish.
@AustinTexas6thStreet
@AustinTexas6thStreet 7 жыл бұрын
That's what it seemed like to me also!! Those in science and academia often lose touch with the rest of Humanity and so they no longer understand other people!! Their narrow perspective is one reason why scientists are notorious for having Social Anxiety and lacking Social Skills because they've focused so much on one area that they've lost touch with other areas!!
@punisher00109
@punisher00109 7 жыл бұрын
well. The title of the cideo wasnt "Free will is NOT an illusion/" the title is "Stop telling people it IS an illusion" so technically not misleading
@jaywasd
@jaywasd 7 жыл бұрын
Guard Passer It's misleading in the sense that it used his name which lead me to think it'd be his normal self yet showed a Daniel Dennett that seems different than that. xP I expected him to be against separating people from the truth and only be saying "Don't tell people ___" if he thought ___ was false.
@Aeonized
@Aeonized 7 жыл бұрын
Just because you don't have free will doesn't mean you can't make decisions. Free will exists, but it depends on the effects the surrounding world has on you. By telling you, you don't have free will, the state of your mind is influenced to either decide that your choices matter, or don't and that you're either responsible or not. That still doesn't change anything, you still need to make decisions and face the consequences.
@punisher00109
@punisher00109 7 жыл бұрын
Aeonized wrong. time isn't linear, so our "fates" are already predetermined
@Iquey
@Iquey 7 жыл бұрын
I don't care about free will too much because I generally try to trust my body to allow me to make sound enough decisions to get by and stay alive, that's what it's programmed to do, and any extra energy leftover from that task can be channeled into what I perceive as my free will which seems good enough. most people use their free will or willpower reserves to pursue pleasures or achieve personal goals, and Yeah, a lot of time those goals are shaped by a person's environment, past experiences and current mental state. I think we should try to educate ourselves as much as possible though, so our bounds of possibility and perception are expanded, so our perception of free will is bigger than the free will of someone who knows less than us about the world. you're only as free as the experiences or knowledge you've accumulated, but at least you do have the freedom to choose to learn, when you have the energy for it, so use that amount of free will at the very least.
@VRietyGamer
@VRietyGamer 9 жыл бұрын
If free will means the ability to make our own decisions, then yes we do have free will. But our decisions are made based on our environment, previous experiences and knowledge. Our brain computes based on those factors and an outcome is made. That is as free as it gets. Does that mean that it is deterministic? Probably. Does that mean we are not responsible for our actions? No.
@CatacombD
@CatacombD 6 жыл бұрын
Indeed. For some reason, people equate "I have no free will" with "I'm not responsible for my actions." If we built a robot, gave it programming to make it self learning, let it live it's life, and it ended up being a murderer, would we let it off the hook because, "It didn't have any free will." No, because the punishments for crimes are one of the many pieces of data that get factored by the brain to determine if a crime is worth doing or not. We program humans to not do bad stuff by making punishments for bad actions. And if a human does bad actions anyway, we treat them like a defective robot. (either try to fix its programming, put it in a place where it won't cause harm to the other meatbags, or scrap it) Lamenting over not having free will is about as silly as lamenting over the fact that there's no Santa. Your life is exactly the same. You'll still get presents on Xmas, but now you understand how they actually get there. I don't think that's a depressing thing.
@Siberius-
@Siberius- 6 жыл бұрын
Conscious decisions? then no we don't have free will. Those 3 things yes, but mainly it's about our will.. what do we will the most in a given situation. That is determined by what we "want" the most, and what we are "forced" to do. That's it. What it means, is that you couldn't of done anything differently. If you do something bad, it's an unfortunate thing that happened because that thing that happened was forced on you because it was what you happened to will the most, which was also forced on you. Similiar to how we don't think to wanna throw an earthquake in jail.. per se. We just try to prevent it from happening again. Though yes jail can be used for humans as a preventative measure. But retribution is pointless and not okay beause they couldn't of done anything differently. With the robots, it's.. would we want retribution and kick it's ass? no.. it's a robot.. it's just an unfortunate thing that happened with it's programming. Do we still use jail? yes of course. That's deterance and also keeping them away from the public. But the prison system obviously needs to become essentially the Scandinavian prison model (already exists). With a plus side that it actually works. Even if you're not responsible on a conscious level, and are just along for the ride.. you still have to go along for the ride if your ride becomes a problem.. that's just how it is. I don't at all see it as a depressing thing either, and my behaviour does remains the same. But it does mean certain other things need to change.. mainly the prison system. Also some things get easier.. like if you're the victim of something bad that happened.. it's easier to accept it I think.... perhaps.
@stewartfraser5357
@stewartfraser5357 5 жыл бұрын
Your last two points are contradictory. If the universe is deterministic then we are not responsible for our actions because they are simply the consequence of a colossal cause and effect chain. Furthermore, we can’t make our own decisions if they have already been predetermined by our genetics and environment. We do have the subjective illusion of making decisions, but every factor that goes into the final decision you rest on is completely out of your control and the vast majority of those factors are also out of your conscious awareness. Even the verbalisation of your decision would have already been determined before you even consciously decided to say it.
@kosmos6467
@kosmos6467 5 жыл бұрын
@@stewartfraser5357 "If the universe is deterministic then we are not responsible for our actions because they are simply the consequence of a colossal cause and effect chain." You are responsible for your actions to the degree that other people will hold you responsible for them. "Furthermore, we can’t make our own decisions if they have already been predetermined by our genetics and environment. We do have the subjective illusion of making decisions," Sure we can make our own decisions! Of course they are part of the causal evolution of the universe but it IS you who are making the decisions. That is in no way an illusion!
@hamnchee
@hamnchee 5 жыл бұрын
@@kosmos6467 Well said. The same people who argue that determinism absolves criminals of responsibility, want to hold responsible those who would hold the criminals responsible. Having free will in a deterministic universe changes nothing about the heuristics we actually live our lives by, and the conflation should be recognized and abandoned.
@Yuzling
@Yuzling 9 жыл бұрын
He merely argues for the case that telling people they don't have free will has negative implications. He did not make a case that we do in fact have free will. So, should we deliberately not tell people what science has deduced in order to prevent these negative implications? Should we tell 'white lies'? It's up to you to decide, but I'll leave this quote because it illustrates my view. "The effort to strive for truth has to precede all other efforts." -Albert Einstein, 1931
@Wastingsometimehere
@Wastingsometimehere 9 жыл бұрын
If anyone tells you that you don't have free will and you actually believe them, perhaps there is something wrong in your head. It takes about one second to actually test that. Not to say there is total free will either, just not power of suggestion.
@Yuzling
@Yuzling 9 жыл бұрын
Damian Louden I didn't engage in his argument because I accepted his argument! He argued that telling people free will doesn't exist can have negative implications. I accept that. Please tell me at which point he argues whether or not free will exists.
@Yuzling
@Yuzling 9 жыл бұрын
Wastingsometimehere It depends on your definition of free will. If being able to make a choice constitutes free will, then technically, computers have free will. If decisions being predetermined was a clause mutually exclusive to free will, then recent advancements in neuroscience would suggest we do not have free will.
@Wastingsometimehere
@Wastingsometimehere 9 жыл бұрын
Jaynohuz Free will can be effected by everything from genetics to parasites and viruses. We are still machines and machines don't have perfect programming. That said internal free will is a lie, but having others control you externally is highly unlikely and very easy to defy.
@MorganTaysha
@MorganTaysha 9 жыл бұрын
We know there's no free will. Just don't tell anybody...
@78g476
@78g476 5 жыл бұрын
This is the exact argument theists use to argue that we need God as a source of moral authority.
@MiB365
@MiB365 4 жыл бұрын
Not much as source as justification for moral
@Tshego2000
@Tshego2000 4 жыл бұрын
Its a pretty strong argument.
@technomage6736
@technomage6736 4 жыл бұрын
@@Tshego2000 Yet it has NOTHING to do with truth
@Tshego2000
@Tshego2000 3 жыл бұрын
@@technomage6736 It is true, it's a metaphysical truth.
@posadist681
@posadist681 Жыл бұрын
@@Tshego2000 nice mental gymnastics there
@chrisaultman1
@chrisaultman1 2 жыл бұрын
He's only right in the sense we're only reacting to stimuli. But this brilliant man just gave a textbook rendition of a slippery slope.
@troy3456789
@troy3456789 Жыл бұрын
Bingo. You nailed it. I hadn't thought about that, but that is true.
@themacocko6311
@themacocko6311 Жыл бұрын
You're both wrong. Probably is NOT a lack of free will. The option to do the exact opposite of your impulse is 100% available.
@troy3456789
@troy3456789 Жыл бұрын
@@themacocko6311 All you can do is witness the choices you make. The choices you make are done a few milliseconds before you can even witness them. Every choice you ever made, every realization you made, every opinion you have, every certainty you have, every belief you have are all 100% involuntary. You have choice and free will: if you chose the parents you have, your skin color, your hair color, the schools you went to when you were growing up, your teachers, and what they would teach you, and every encounter you ever had with anyone (good or bad).
@chrisaultman1
@chrisaultman1 Жыл бұрын
@@themacocko6311 Free will is an illusion. There is zero scientific proof of it. None.
@lrvogt1257
@lrvogt1257 Жыл бұрын
@@themacocko6311 : You CAN do the exact opposite of your impulse, your WANT, but only for a more compelling WANT like to avoid trouble or be contrarian. You can do what you want but you can't choose what you want.
@Matthewkyle12
@Matthewkyle12 9 жыл бұрын
For me personally, I don't mind much whether free will is real or not. I don't have any problems rejecting free will in its entirety and simultaneously continue to act in such a way which is considered to contain good character. In other words, the notion of not having free will in my head doesn't cause me to do bad things. And for all the bad things I do in life, I could equally argue that I chose to do them. Regardless of the concept of free will, take responsibility for your actions.
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
Doesn't matter what you "mind" or "have problems with" or how you "act". Because you don't do any of those things, it's all determined, right? You aren't taking responsibility, because it's determined that you will say that, it doesn't mean anything. You're a physical vessel of causes and effects, so you don't really exist.
@Matthewkyle12
@Matthewkyle12 3 жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 bro my comment is 6 years old lol. You're basically replying to a guy who doesn't exist anymore. But I feel you
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
@@Matthewkyle12 Me replying 6 years later was determined anyway, was it not? So why point it out to me? It was bound to happen.
@kentstruck416
@kentstruck416 2 жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 j
@DiogenesNephew
@DiogenesNephew Жыл бұрын
​@@sguraya7223 Correct on all accounts. People don't get this shit.
@davidroach8277
@davidroach8277 4 жыл бұрын
Somebody told me the other day that I didn't have freewill and I believed him but I didn't go out and commit a crime...sounds like this person's OCD wasn't cured.
@jlankford
@jlankford 5 ай бұрын
Exactly! Something else is going on with the patient for his brain to lead him to that conclusion.
@Tapecutter59
@Tapecutter59 4 жыл бұрын
"I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper." - Einstein. "My Credo" 1932
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
That's a great way to view people, as empty vessels of physical phenomena. Your fellow men should not be taken seriously because theyre silly non-acting/deciding individuals. Einstein was clearly morally bankrupt.
@tinand69420
@tinand69420 Жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 "from taking *myself* and my fellow men *too* seriously. Big difference
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 Жыл бұрын
@@tinand69420 Nope, saying it about yourself doesn't make it better.
@sirflamedrop6165
@sirflamedrop6165 5 ай бұрын
​@@tinand69420 yea, it doesn't make it any better.
@leoor1111
@leoor1111 Ай бұрын
einstein ended up believeing in free will actually in his late years he argued aganist determinism so.. yeah
@CJ_102
@CJ_102 9 жыл бұрын
The lack of free will makes it even more important to beware of your influence on others. In the exact same way as you are careful of your conduct around impressionable children.
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su 3 жыл бұрын
Lol that's free will right there but yea we are what we eat what we listen and the ideas with feed
@raresmircea
@raresmircea 2 жыл бұрын
This points to our lack of free will (subjects’ behavior being influenced like that without their having any idea) but also points out the necessity to continue with this cultural notion of free-will.
@nbultman_art
@nbultman_art 7 жыл бұрын
Truth isn't thrwarted by how it makes people feel.
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
You don't believe in determinism.
@alexmonza2823
@alexmonza2823 3 жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 paradoxes are only natural
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
@@alexmonza2823 How so?
@alexmonza2823
@alexmonza2823 3 жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 take causality. There is no intelligible way to explain the appearance of the universe. Either it emerged out of nowhere, which is absurd, or it has always existed, which is absurd too, or it was pushed into being by God which nature would be equally absurd. We have only 3 options and every one of them entails an insoluble paradox (for all I know). We are just very limited in our perception of the world. Therefore I consider paradoxes to be natural.
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
@@alexmonza2823 What is absurd about any of those? And what's paradoxical about them? If it's a matter of our perception, then there's no reason to believe that it's a paradox.
@simil-kung5610
@simil-kung5610 4 жыл бұрын
I realized that free will is a nonsensical concept some years ago when I was a teenager. I don't go around and harm anyone - quite the contrary: I find it a very relaxing thought. The more I bear it in mind, the more tolerant, easy and placid I become. I get less and less judgemental and don't think of people as "evil" anymore if they are not of the same opinion as I am or if they did a bad thing. I see them like they are: (more or less) intelligent but fallible apes that sometimes believe in or do stupid things, because their brain is wired like it is. Does that mean we should allow everybody to do anything? No. A murderer without free will is still a murderer, we still should put him in jail. But we shouldn't do it thinking "he is an evil person and needs to be punished because we want him to suffer", but instead we should see him like we would see every other animal in that situation (or maybe even a computer with a bug) and think „you did something very stupid and we don't want people going arround killing other people, so we're going to put you away from society untill you(r brain) learned not to do so so that we can put you free again without having to worry". And also every individual has still reason not to misbehave: I don't want to go to jail and I don't want to live in a society were I have to be afraid of being murdered all the time, so I better behave not to contribute to that. That little piece of game theory may not convince everybody to be nice - but on the other hand the notion of free will hasn't done so either. And I think, who's intelligent enough to understand neuroscientific arguments against free will is also very likely to be intelligent enough to consider simple gametheory and some determinism-compatible ethics. I dont think that any of these or any of his points make a valid argument for believing or not believing in free will - it's first of all a matter of truth... but I just wanted to express that I don't agree with the "thought experiment".
@marvinedwards737
@marvinedwards737 4 жыл бұрын
You make a good point that, free will or not, we must deal with the problem of the person who goes around harming others. Praise and blame, punishment and reward, are deterministic tools for behavior modification. With or without free will, we must still use the tools that work. So, the notion that discarding free will makes us less likely to punish or reward someone is not valid. It's value is mostly a placebo effect, where it does for you what you have been told to believe it will do for you. In fact, if we use the notion of determinism to excuse the thief who stole your wallet, then it equally excuses the judge who cuts off his hand. So, this is not very clear thinking on our part. Ironically, Christianity, which is made up of people who generally believe in free will, also teaches forgiveness and rehabilitation through principle and stories, like the Prodigal Son. So, compassion is not vested in the absence of free will. It is vested in our view of other things, like our notions of fair play.
@teebeedahbow
@teebeedahbow 2 жыл бұрын
'I realized that free will Is a nonsensical concept', seems to me to be an inherently contradictory statement.
@simil-kung5610
@simil-kung5610 2 жыл бұрын
@@teebeedahbow Why is that?
@teebeedahbow
@teebeedahbow 2 жыл бұрын
@@simil-kung5610 Well, surely if you had no free will, you would have to give up your chance of realising anything or making any kind of conclusion. In other words, what part of you makes decisions - albeit influenced but finally independent from all kinds of outside stimulation, information etc -, if not your free will? At some point you have to speak and act independently. You are not an automaton.
@simil-kung5610
@simil-kung5610 2 жыл бұрын
@@teebeedahbow I don't think that follows. Just because the state of my brain is determined by the laws of physics and not by some ominous thing that people call "free will" (and fail to adequately define), that doesn't mean that my brain needs to be static. Obviously, it isn't static but you don't need "free" will to explain that fact. A computer can make conclusions based on given information, it's basically the same thing, but I guess you wouldn't say that computers have free will. And also I think that many people who believe in free will wouldn't agree with your statement because you're basically implying that people can freely choose what they believe in.
@LorenzoTheFinisher
@LorenzoTheFinisher 4 жыл бұрын
It pains me to see such an intelligent guy resort to appealing to consequences.
@jonwhite8815
@jonwhite8815 4 жыл бұрын
You obviously didn't understand the point of the video then. He's not saying that's a reason to believe in free will. He's written multiple books detailing those arguments.
@podiumman2
@podiumman2 7 ай бұрын
Exactly!!
@cht2162
@cht2162 3 ай бұрын
Is free will a matter of truth or consequences
@davegonnaway6007
@davegonnaway6007 4 жыл бұрын
We can choose to do what we like but we can't choose what we like
@isaakvandaalen3899
@isaakvandaalen3899 5 жыл бұрын
I don't mind not having free will. In fact, I usually choose to ignore it. The way I deal with this is I tell myself that regardless of how predetermined my choices are, they are still mine to make and I'd better make some good ones.
@TheArtOfRevolution
@TheArtOfRevolution 5 жыл бұрын
I'm late in the game here, but you're on point. You are clearly a decision maker, whether your decisions were free or not. But this is what compatablists argue is free will. It's not so much the free [to] will, all that we care about in regard to moral responsibility is more in the freedom [of] will to act. If we rewound the clock could you make a different decision from the one you made? I would say no, but only because it wasn't your will to. If you had willed differently, you would have chose differently. If that's not appropriately called free will, what would you call it?
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su 3 жыл бұрын
That's free will right there
@isaakvandaalen3899
@isaakvandaalen3899 3 жыл бұрын
@@DiegoRamirez-sf3su Not necessarily. If I were to relive my life, I might always come to the conclusions that I have. I do not know of a mechanism by which free will could realistically operate. As long as the starting variables are known, then the outcome is fixed, and if the outcome is fixed then there's no room for us to alter anything. That doesn't mean we don't play a role in our own futures. I can make decisions based on the information available to me, and calculate optimal courses of action, because that's what my brain is built to do, but whether my actions are free is completely different.
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su 3 жыл бұрын
@@isaakvandaalen3899 self awareness =free will
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su
@DiegoRamirez-sf3su 3 жыл бұрын
@@isaakvandaalen3899 we gotta be careful with what we read listen to who we sorround our selfs with cus they do have and influence on our choices also in order to have free will we most have a strong will
@handle535
@handle535 7 жыл бұрын
Well I stopped believing in free will some time ago and didn't suddenly start behaving in a aggressive, self indulgent or become a morally incompetent person. My understanding that I have no free will is on an *intellectual* level - but it still *feels* like I have free will and this is all that matters day to day. If I was aware of my future fate in advance and was unable to change things that would be a problem but this is unlikely to ever be possible. Believing there is no free will inevitably makes you a more compassionate person because you must give up notions of evil, punishment or retribution. I cannot judge others because I recognize *but by the grace of God go I* (God in Einsteinian sense).
@AustinTexas6thStreet
@AustinTexas6thStreet 7 жыл бұрын
It's the same thing when Religious people say that if you don't believe in God that you will suddenly become a thief, rapist or murderer because you no longer have a reason not to do those things without the threat of Hell!! That is a very simple and ignorant viewpoint and it totally underestimates the inherent Decency of many people!!
@handle535
@handle535 7 жыл бұрын
I was thinking exactly the same thing. There is a certain irony in a well known Atheist, who has no doubt argued against that very argument in the case of religion, using it himself to justify free will. The other thing Dennett doesn't seem to get is that there is a massive difference between a health care professional, who has a duty of care to their patient, intentionally manipulating them for their own entertainment versus a researcher in neuroscience releasing their actual findings. Moreover, does Dennett seriously advocate that a neuroscientist who uncovers an inconvenient fact should hide (or falsify) their research to avoid upsetting the public - extraordinary! By this line of reasoning if it were discovered that a belief in God provides psychological comfort to people and there also be discovered incontrovertible proof that God nonetheless does not exist, then we should conceal the evidence that God does not exist. This is the ostrich approach to life.
@ahadicow
@ahadicow 7 жыл бұрын
what is there to be compassionate about when you give up the notion of evil?
@handle535
@handle535 7 жыл бұрын
Quite a lot actually. I can feel compassion for those people that you would call evil, and thereby presumably have no compassion for, as well as everyone else, for whom you would presumably feel compassion. For example, I can feel compassion for Udey Hussein as well all of his victims. The notion of evil is primarily a way of limiting compassion. It is a way of labeling those for whom you feel no compassion, or even have a desire to feel compassion for. Giving up on evil (and free will) forces you to consider that, but for circumstance, you might well be the one doing the horrible things. Viewed from that perspective ideas such as retribution or punishment (by the intentional infliction of pain, suffering or discomfort), as opposed to rehabilitation or simple confinement, seem truly barbaric.
@ahadicow
@ahadicow 7 жыл бұрын
***** how do you know which person I would call evil and, for that matter, I think evil as a character a person can have? do you have compassion for just about everyone? then how is that meaningful? if you love everyone, that only means you love no one. Indifference is not compassion. I occasionally contemplate the thing I do and the morality of them. However, for that to work, I actually need the notion of evil. If I deny such thing as evil to exist, how could I fathom the possibility of myself being the perpetrator or accomplice of evil? Punishment is an idea following retribution, and retribution is an idea following justice. What justice is there if we don't exact retribution from criminals? do you think justice exist? do you care about it?
@keesdenheijer7283
@keesdenheijer7283 9 жыл бұрын
I love Matt Dillahunty's view in general: "I want to know as much true things as possible". That would be my position also. If free will turns out to be an illusion, I want to know.
@jakefoster5611
@jakefoster5611 4 жыл бұрын
I don't.
@calebm6818
@calebm6818 2 жыл бұрын
@@PeteMD your brain must be much bigger. I can tell because you spend so much time growing it by writing "har har Dennett = dum" all over this comment section.
@fosheimdet
@fosheimdet 2 ай бұрын
There are true things you don't want to know. Like how it feels to starve to death. Also, the illusion of free will clearly has an important evolutionary purpose.
@ZeroOne337
@ZeroOne337 9 жыл бұрын
If I have free will, then believing I have free will is the correct choice. If I don't have free will, then, it doesn't matter which choice is correct. I am not free to believe or not believe it. What I will believe is already predetermined, regardless of whether it is true or false. Given the above, I think I'm gonna believe that I have free will anyway. The worst that could happen is not that I choose falsely, but that I do not choose at all.
@nicktanner8231
@nicktanner8231 6 жыл бұрын
no, it means you search to find the truth because truth is power and thats what your genes want. you had no choice in this decision at all
@kendog84bsc
@kendog84bsc 5 жыл бұрын
@ZeroOne337 As a libertarian free will impossibilist... I agree.
@inderpreetsingh8952
@inderpreetsingh8952 4 жыл бұрын
If just by telling a person that he/she doesn't have free will, their free will can switched off( as u said in ur fictitious experiment) then does that person really has free will to begin with. A person doesn't have free will may mean that whatever the circumstances we find in life , we may not have full control on them, but no matter bcoz thats how life is supposed to be , so u can still enjoy them
@baldy6760
@baldy6760 4 жыл бұрын
Can we start believing in father Christmas again too because it makes us happier.
@TestMeatDollSteak
@TestMeatDollSteak 9 жыл бұрын
I think I'm with some of the other commenters here, in that it seems that Dennett's thought experiment is really just an argumentum ad consequentiam. To summarize: "If people believe they *don't* have free will, then bad things will happen." That doesn't really tell us anything about whether free will exists or if it is a comforting illusion.
@Ren99510
@Ren99510 9 жыл бұрын
It's nothing more than a thought experiment though, he's not trying to argue that free will does or does not exist.
@kd1s
@kd1s 9 жыл бұрын
Now extend that concept to belief in God and the Bible. You see where I'm going here.
@Dieze
@Dieze 9 жыл бұрын
be careful about educating the public, it might have some negative implications... best. argument. ever.
@morota1000
@morota1000 9 жыл бұрын
kd1s I see to directions, God and the Bible says that we have free will, so it improves society or on the opposite site, God will forgive everyone if he want, so it has the same effect like saying: "free will does not exist". I hope my English isnt too bad, but I usually dont use this language.
@SenpaiTorpidDOW
@SenpaiTorpidDOW 9 жыл бұрын
Dieze TA Where did he make an argument?
@KateeAngel
@KateeAngel 9 жыл бұрын
Fuck Bible
@PITTartistpen
@PITTartistpen 9 жыл бұрын
You right most people act better
@Asha2820
@Asha2820 9 жыл бұрын
1. Something being untrue, and something being true but irresponsible to tell people are two different things. It may be irresponsible (and immoral) of me to tell a thief when my neighbour is on holiday, but the information that my neighbour is on holiday is not untrue. 2. Neither side seems to have defined free will to my satisfaction. I do not believe they are talking about the same thing, so it may be possible that both sides are correct using their assumed definitions and the contradiction is illusory. 3. If we take the nihilistic standpoint that since no-one has free will, no-one can take moral responsibility, then it makes no sense to question whether a punishment for a crime is just or unjust, since we do not have any moral responsibility to hand out justice. If there is no free will, then we should view our justice system as being internal to, and unaffected by, this system.
@prygler
@prygler 8 жыл бұрын
+Asha2820 Yes, there is a huge problem about definitions of free will, because there are so many of them. From classical to modern philosophy. However, it is changing the subject, in my opinion at least, to talk about free will as something different than the possibility and capacity of consciousness to act and make decisions without being determined by any other causal powers. Free will has to exist in consciousness and in a place outside the causality determinism. Even if we include quantum mechanics and recognize that to be evidence for intrinsic probabistic determinism (that is, reality is not determined in the traditional determinnistisc sense, where you can predict everything perfectly, if you have the sufficient knowledge. Rather it is determined by probability, which is roughly like rolling dice), everything would still be determined by probability distribution, or rolling dice, if you will. You can change the subject, as I would say, when you define free will as simple the capacity to choose without being forced to do it by someone or something outside your brain. That would simply to be excluding the brain from the subject, and say that neuroscience is irrelevant to the question of free will, because we simply define free will as freee from being forced to do it, where forced are ment to refer to causality outside the brain and outside the individual person. Such an approach would be to assume a priori that we have free will, when we are not forced to by "outside" forces. If you take such an approach to the question of free will, then you are basicly resting everything on tautology. Furthermore, you would be subscribing to the illusion of free will, because you simply assume a priori in your definition of free will that we do have free will, when we are not forced by external forces. This is the intuitive sense and feeling everyone have. However, it is an illusion.
@forrestphillips6035
@forrestphillips6035 8 жыл бұрын
+Asha2820 Take some time and think about what free will really means, it's implications and how to define it. That's all it takes to figure out why it doesn't exist. Technically the way I think of it, the free will as people generally conceive of it may exist, but if it does, that doesn't have any of the implications they think it has. Free will does exist, and we have no control over it. I can't direct my own agency any more than I can alter who I am, as my agency is determined by who I am.
@Asha2820
@Asha2820 8 жыл бұрын
Forrest Phillips "...[W]hat free will means"? It means what we define it as. How do you define it?
@forrestphillips6035
@forrestphillips6035 8 жыл бұрын
I define it just about the same as everyone else. From wikipedia: "Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action." More specifically it's probably worth distinguishing between will and free will. That might be a better definition of will. I think the idea of free will has to take into account whether the ability to choose between options isn't under the control or coercion of an external entity.
@prygler
@prygler 8 жыл бұрын
***** No, that is not what Dennett is saying. Wegner did a lot of psychological scientific research about how and why our human psychological mind create the subjective experience of free will (read that instead of listening to Dennett's bullshit). Dennett is saying that we do have free will even though we can predict people's choices up to 12 seconds before they are conscious. And Dennett got no scientific argument for his postulation.
@humanbeing5396
@humanbeing5396 4 жыл бұрын
I would love to stop myself from telling people they don’t have free will but I don’t have free will.
@Arcaryon
@Arcaryon 3 жыл бұрын
You don't but because you know the consequences, your own will has been altered by a predetermined condition. The universe has given you no freedom but the knowledge to understand your own actions.
@arande3
@arande3 9 жыл бұрын
Although I lean towards not having true free will in the illusory perceptions of our daily lives, I propose that it doesn't matter whether we do or not, but that we should live our lives to the fullest regardless of meaning and purpose.
@troy3456789
@troy3456789 Жыл бұрын
You say that here, but are saying that like a phrase that a person with free will could do. It proves it is possible to say one thing and do another, or to always be doing that anyway, even without ever saying it (or anything in between living a happy life and living a selfish, myopic life). When someone asks "what is the meaning of life?" or "what is my purpose in life?", they are asking a *pseudo* question. Meaning and purpose in life is nothing more than a feeling, much like free will.
@themacocko6311
@themacocko6311 Жыл бұрын
Why is everyone quoting out of books on the subject
@arande3
@arande3 Жыл бұрын
I don’t think I was quoting out of a book, I probably would’ve put it in quotes.
@pokemon9505
@pokemon9505 9 жыл бұрын
All Dennett is saying (and proving with his thought exercise) is that humans act less morally when told that they don't have free will, so neuroscientists should be more responsible when making that statement to people. In actual fact though, we are animals and we too are bound by our instincts for survival at the end of the day. Should anyone go insane over being told they have no free will (complete free will from our biological instincts), it just means that those people have not come to terms with the fact that they too are animals and they have instincts.
@a.gwhiteley1855
@a.gwhiteley1855 9 ай бұрын
Danel Dennett's position here is truly extraordinary. He in fact agrees with neuroscientists who deny free will but tells them they are being irresponsible in saying so. In other words, we know we don't have free will but let's not tell anyone in case they start behaving badly. We must all, it seems, play a huge game in which we all pretend to have free will, knowing full well we don't! I find this beyond absurd.
@veegomi7669
@veegomi7669 6 жыл бұрын
I dont get whats free will. So we cant choose what to do with our lives? We dont have choice in being who we are? How do people choose to take certain jobs amd work out even when they dont want to or choose to overcome addiction...genuine question not saying it does or doesnt exist im just confused of what it is now 😫 makes me feel like now I cant be who I want and change for the better and overcome my fears because i have no choice :(
@Ben.....
@Ben..... 9 жыл бұрын
Only a consequentialist would say we should not show what is true because it might influence others.
@Ren99510
@Ren99510 9 жыл бұрын
He isn't advocating for lying.
@Dom-cq9ni
@Dom-cq9ni 9 жыл бұрын
Benjamin Allman thank you, I think yours is the most important comment on this video so far. Dennett's argument is based on the premise of consequentialism, and all the negative responses to this video clearly show that consequentialism is not in line with most people's moral intuition. furthermore, I see a crucial discrepancy in Dennett's analogy: with that chip he describes, other people(!) would get in control over me, which is vastly different from everything being natural processes over which "I" don't have transcendental powers.
@thomasstratton9394
@thomasstratton9394 6 жыл бұрын
Speaking as a vaguely consequentialist, I disagree. I entirely condemn this gentleman's assertion that we should not debunk free will just because of how it influences people. The reason for this is because telling the truth on scientific issues is the morally better option. Not only would lying bring the entire scientific community into disrepute; lying about such an important issue means that people will continue to live their lives based on a factually flawed paradigm, wondering all the while why it doesn't work out. Telling the world the truth about free will, or the absence thereof, may result in some teething problems, but it would likely pay dividends in the long run. Therefore it is, from a consequentialist viewpoint, a moral imperative.
@david102994
@david102994 6 жыл бұрын
Just advocating for hiding the truth from people (just as bad)
@sakshamrewari
@sakshamrewari 6 жыл бұрын
Yes! People deserve the truth even if it is hard to digest. The Earth DOES revolve around the sun now, doesn't it.
@djvelocity
@djvelocity 2 жыл бұрын
*Even if one makes the argument that it’s irresponsible to share this data because it could be interpreted incorrectly and cause social harm, it’s still a moral imperative to share the information found* as transparency and replication are cornerstones of what it means to engage in science. I can understand if someone does not like the conclusion, but that does not mean we shouldn’t share the data with the public 🤔😕
@davidstem1557
@davidstem1557 2 жыл бұрын
If there is no free will then the opinions about whether to share or not are irrelevant since no one has any free will to share or not share that info.
@djvelocity
@djvelocity 2 жыл бұрын
@@davidstem1557 we don’t yet know if we have free will, the mathematics and the experiments that we do in physics tends to show that we don’t have free will, but we don’t know that definitively yet. If we did, we would understand quantum non-locality right?
@futuredave2
@futuredave2 2 жыл бұрын
@@djvelocity if we don’t know if we have free will then people like Sam Harris telling people that they don’t have free will is a disservice of the highest order and a huge moral failing. It’s the utmost in arrogance.
@djvelocity
@djvelocity 2 жыл бұрын
@@futuredave2 We don’t know definitively, but it looks to be that way. Personally, I believe free will may be an illusion (at least that’s what neuroscience and quantum physics demonstrates) but until somebody comes up with an experiment that proves this beyond and to the exclusion of reasonable doubt, we need to keep an open mind as scientists
@LummyTum
@LummyTum 2 жыл бұрын
@@futuredave2 If we don't know if god exists then people like atheists telling people that there is no god is a disservice of the highest order and a huge moral failing. It's the utmost in arrogance.
@0Etcetera0
@0Etcetera0 7 жыл бұрын
Humans need society. Not having free will doesn't exempt you from the consequences your actions merit in your society.
@anthonypc1
@anthonypc1 6 жыл бұрын
I agree this can be risky for relatively stupid or dogmatic people to be taught. Especially if they aren't also taught reasons why things still matter to their own lives. But I came to this concept on my own in my early 20s, then later found the scientific validations for it, and yet I STILL operate as though I am responsible for my actions, rather than becoming obsessed with the idea of the predetermined chain reactions of subatomic particles of my neurons which only can interact in accordance with the consistent laws of nature, as though that is an "excuse" to indulge in chaotic destructive behavior. I still Live moment to moment like a biological human, not a malfunctioning robot that has been fed a conceptual input too paradoxical to process. a flexible brain may adapt this info to suit it's survival, or else find ways to deny or forget it, as humans do with most info which doesn't suit us. Most healthy humans don't kill ourselves once we learn that it is in our power to do so. I think it's our biological instincts to act in ways that tend to contribute to the survival of our bodies. Of course this falls apart on larger scales which our species didn't evolve to handle, like interacting with virtual reality through screens, or collaborating outside of our tribes on a global scale... But in general, I think most human minds are resilient enough to react to this epiphany of no Ultimate freewill in a way that will allow for the continuation of self-serving behavior. The survival instinct is strong. if it wasn't, I'd probably wouldn't have resisted an impulse I had an hour ago when I was locked out of my apartment to try jumping from my 3rd floor doorway to my window ledge to get in... The thought happened in my head, and I have conceived of the idea before that my life is just a temporary experience and not any more inherently "meaningful" than the trillions of other sentient human lives throughout time, etc. I even am frequently aware of the breakdown of our "freewill" at material and metaphysical levels, (since I actually have OCD and it's given me many causes to contemplate this stuff). But yet, my brain resisted the inclination to jump. I assume because despite whatever abstract concepts I may play around with in my head, when it comes to physical moment of my actions, my biology is hardwired to survive. When it isn't for some people, that is a disfunction which can be fatal. But sure, I wouldn't care to undermine the social construct of freewill at this fragile point in human development. Can't rely on any of the unbalanced narcissists and other assholes and idiots of the world who may "choose" to interpret that idea in all kinds of destructive ways. Not that we're particularly Non-destructive as a species With the freewill concept in tact anyway...
@quandaledingle968
@quandaledingle968 Жыл бұрын
Isn't this comment kind of hypocritical? How do you live as if you have free will while holding that it doesn't exist, or even conceive of an 'I' at all?
@anthonypc1
@anthonypc1 Жыл бұрын
@@quandaledingle968 Hi! (without rereading my long old comment...) I'd say it's not hypocrisy, and not even paradoxical as it may seem, simply because without an omniscient ability to KNOW how I'll react next there's effectively no difference for me whether my will to act is supernaturally free from causality or not. If we have no access to a truth, e.g. what we necessarily do next, then it can have no barring on our thought process. To laugh or not to laugh; to call a doctor or not to call; to trip or not to trip -- I can know that by tomorrow there will be one specific action I will have done, but without knowing already which it will be, I get to experience the thought process that inevitably leads me to that single act. So, operating with my limited human foresight, I must act AS IF all the other possibilities I can guess at are actual options for me to consider. And it still is useful to ethically judge and reward or punish the actions people do if they are caused by mental states known as intentions, because our enforcement of justice is a major factor that influences our intentions to act. Let me know if this makes more sense or if I should try to explain better.
@anthonypc1
@anthonypc1 Жыл бұрын
@@quandaledingle968 And the experience of identity is independent from freedom. I could be entirely paralyzed and puppeteered by robots and still be aware of my senses. All sensory inputs, but no awareness of intentional thoughts before the output of actions.
@quandaledingle968
@quandaledingle968 Жыл бұрын
@@anthonypc1 I think I understand. But in your example, are there not other options? Is the fact you chose to go to the doctor inevitable simply because it happened, that is to say if by the uncertainty principle some particles wound up elsewhere and this led to you making a different decision, would it have been inevitable too? I don't believe in a will completely free from the material world either but I think we have some semblance of agency (btw I didn't realize your comment was from 5 years ago so, sorry for the random mention!)
@anthonypc1
@anthonypc1 Жыл бұрын
​@@quandaledingle968 Haha no worries! it was a good mention. I think there can be multiple options that we can reasonably anticipate, even describing our confidence in our expectations with probability math. But the fact of which one possibility will actually be caused is predetermined by natural mechanics. Like passengers on a train observing only what passes their window and with each moment refining their guesses about which way the track will turn next. Even IF the uncertainty principle meant that there is some true randomness at a subatomic level, that would still be so far beyond our ordinary neurological functions, I don't imagine it would be enough to make the difference between one whole thought or another. And EVEN IF there was true randomness on an atomic level, or a molecular level, that wouldn't mean more freedom to control our will. It'd just mean our will is random! Even less predictable. In a universe based on randomness physics, there wouldn't even be any use in trying to regulate our behavior because people's brain chemistry would just randomly twitch them into unplanned actions all the time. (or more realistically no organisms would even evolve from matter in total chaos. but whatever) Quantum mechanics get pretty unfathomable for humans currently, so let's not conflate scientists' uncertainty about the position of unmeasurably small particles with an actual absence of fact. As far as I understand -- which is not that far -- superpositions are just probability placeholders for the exact positions that we can't observe. Anyway, I do enjoy this experience of agency free from certain knowledge of which choice my brain is set up to necessarily make next.
@WarpRulez
@WarpRulez 9 жыл бұрын
Nice appeal to consequences. The always valid argument.
@xj-vn4eo
@xj-vn4eo 3 жыл бұрын
@Hickory Jim Famously invalid? Isn't it quite valid, as a rule of inference for contrapositive having the same logical value of the statement?
@arkadebsengupta7702
@arkadebsengupta7702 3 жыл бұрын
@xj58074 this is sarcasm
@darthlynx5792
@darthlynx5792 2 жыл бұрын
You're actually correct
@dJ7miAXhgWKB4
@dJ7miAXhgWKB4 9 жыл бұрын
sam harris: friendship over
@Markus9705
@Markus9705 9 жыл бұрын
Lol, exactly what I thought. How sad Mr. Horseman given up to feelings.
@hydrangeadragon
@hydrangeadragon 11 ай бұрын
This dude is so close to realising that people's circumstances, upbringing, and in this case narratives they have been fed do in fact determine how they how they act, he's honestly just proving determinism with this. Example with this case: it would be further determinable if we had more background knowledge of the guy in question but also we already know (from many experiments and also just plain observation) that people trust the words of authority figures and are also more than happy to do bad things if they can absolve themselves of responsibility for it, the whole "I was just following orders" thing, so this just further proves determinism
@georgegrubbs2966
@georgegrubbs2966 Жыл бұрын
Under that scenario, people should be told they have free will even though they don’t. This will result in people behaving better.
@OliverKane
@OliverKane 9 жыл бұрын
Ignoring for a moment the validity of the claim "There is no free will", Dennett suggests that to assert this is dangerous. I for one, think that no matter how terrible a truth is, we should not shy away from it. Even if there's no "Free Will" that doesn't absolve anyone of consequences for action. It merely suggests that our choices are constrained by our biology, no more no less. An earlier commenter put it nicely: "1. Dennett is not arguing against determinism or in favor of (libertarian) free will. 2. Dennett is not arguing against telling people that the universe is deterministic. 3. Dennett is arguing that people conflate free will with moral responsibility. The takeaway message is that it is irresponsible to declare free will is illusory without decoupling the notion of free will from moral responsibility."
@paulstevens5750
@paulstevens5750 7 жыл бұрын
I studied a course on the mind and one of the points made was that humans frontal lobe enables us to think, process and make conscious decisions therefore we really have free won't - I won't walk off that cliff, I won't kill that person etc. Personally that line resonated with me.
@EMMETproxy
@EMMETproxy 3 жыл бұрын
Nice
@DiogenesNephew
@DiogenesNephew Жыл бұрын
Non-sequitur to the extreme.
@dfghj241
@dfghj241 9 ай бұрын
yea but these are not elements of free will, person from 6 years ago. you've lived all your life and acquired all your beliefs despite having no free will, despite being basically a reactive machine.
@stevoplex
@stevoplex 6 жыл бұрын
This is a concept that I came to believe intuitively, as a reaction to the Cognitive Dissonance I experienced when trying to accept the notion that, in fact, we do not have free will. That Believing it Necessarily Altered the Outcome of your reasoning. And that Knowing that you Don't have Free Will leads to poorer decision making than would be the case of Thinking you have Free Will, but really didn't. Believing in Free Will makes you Act As If you Really Did Have Free Will. It compels you to Think more Rigorously and Thoroughly than you would if you were Certain that you Didn't have Free Will. And it also compels you to Take Responsibility for your decisions, even if you chose Badly.
@yudaman231
@yudaman231 Жыл бұрын
Agreed - that has been my experience too, at least. The term "free will" seems to imply that one can make choices 'for free,' which seems to be empirically untrue.
@patinho5589
@patinho5589 Жыл бұрын
Will power / motivation is important. Thinking we don’t have fee will usually erroneously leads people through cognitive processes to want to sit on their asses and be lazy. I think that covers it.
@stevoplex
@stevoplex Жыл бұрын
@@patinho5589 I love the song "Free Will " by Rush. The chorus between verses is "You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice. If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. You can choose from phantom fears or kindness that can kill. I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose free will. "
@CatacombD
@CatacombD 6 жыл бұрын
Aka: Tell people a comforting lie, instead of telling them the truth, because sometimes people deliver the truth in a harsh way, which makes people feel bad. How about instead we focus on explaining the truth to people in a way that makes them realize that it's not the horrible thing they're under the impression that it is? In other words, "You don't have free will, and that's just fine."
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
Why are you suggesting that we focus on truth? Whether he focuses on truth is pre-determined, no?
@CatacombD
@CatacombD 3 жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 Because I think that it's better for people to learn the truth and accept it, rather than fear the truth and comfort themselves with a lie. And so what if whether or not his focus is on truth is predetermined? My action to try to get people to focus more on the truth is also predetermined. What does that matter for the sake of whether or not we should try to get people to accept the truth? Are our arguments somehow stronger if they're not predetermined? No, they're exactly the same. What point are you trying to make?
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
@@CatacombD You don't "think" anything. That would imply you had any choice in the matter. But it's deterministic... Right? Yes, your action to get people to focus on truth is pre-determined, so why do it? To try to get people to accept the truth is like trying to do anything. Impossible, everything is pre-determined, you can't try to manifest a potential future, because there is only one, and it is coming regardless. You are trying to do that solely because you are a machine programmed to mindlessly pursue that, with zero agency. You aren't trying anything. The point I'm trying to make is that your claims contradict themselves, and the fact that you are making claims, itself contradicts the claims you have made. Like if I said "this sentence is a lie", that sentence is fundamentally nonsensical. As is: "I (who does not exist, except as a machine with no agency) am trying (no, I'm not, that would imply agency, that I am even capable of the act of 'trying') am focusing on truth/claiming cuz/think something". Everything you say contradicts determinism, even the sentences you use to advocate for it.
@ina7084
@ina7084 3 жыл бұрын
@@sguraya7223 Nothing he says contradicts himself. We've no words. Steve's attempts aren't futile in determinism, but the contrary. If we perceive free will as a cause effect thing in determinism then Steve is a cause to an effect. Like how the hostile tone of your comment to Steve motivated me to reply and all the events prior to it along with my personality and genetics which made it possible. btw. Sincerely, you understand shit, stfu.
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
@@ina7084 That you read my comments as hostile is entirely on you, that was not my intention (although I guess intention isn't real...) "Steve's attempts" don't exist. He can't attempt, or try, anything, because that implies he could do otherwise. But it's deterministic, right? "If we perceive free will as a cause effect thing in determinism, then Steve is a cause to an effect". You're talking about my opinion and Streves argument like they exist in a vacuum. Let's go by that "cause effect thing" thing: The initial conditions of the universe are a cause to the effect of everything that occurs afterwards, so what my opinion is, is determined anyway, there's no point trying to do anything, including convince me, because what will happen, will happen. But wait, there is no try, or attempt, because that would imply the option of that not happening, but it's all determined. Yet you continue to use words like "attempt", despite the fact that there is no such thing. There is only that which "occurs" because other things "occurred" because other things "existed". There is no room for "trying" in this, as we have no control over it.
@DeadEndFrog
@DeadEndFrog 7 жыл бұрын
'a man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wants'
@terrorpony90
@terrorpony90 9 жыл бұрын
1. His thought experiment doesn't hold up, as it doesn't even support his claim. Believing you have no free will and believing your will is controlled by an external authority are two seperate issues. 2. Withholding information and truth because there may or may not be harmful consequences stifles much needed progress. Look around you: Religious fundamentalism and war are rampant. Any insight into how things like consciousness and (free) will actually work will be a necessary step towards building a morally healthy global society.
@Sylar-451
@Sylar-451 5 жыл бұрын
Arnold Crom the Magnificent I totally agree. I had an argument with a couple of friends because they bought up how letting people know of determinism could harm society like this guy. I find it funny that the neuroscientists who are letting it out were determined to do so anyway... LOL
@simil-kung5610
@simil-kung5610 4 жыл бұрын
Yes. Thank you. I agree 100%
@oserapis4802
@oserapis4802 4 жыл бұрын
What he's trying to say is: It is best to maintain to the illusion of free will. Not that people have free will.
@denizkarakilic
@denizkarakilic 12 күн бұрын
Since I love my guy Dennet (RIP) I must state that he does not argue for the existence of free will, he only says “let’s not shout it out loud that it is not real”
@mikezooper
@mikezooper 8 жыл бұрын
I believe that anyone saying free will exists is unconsciously fearing death, or their ego needs to believe they have power over their life. Let's start admitting our fears, and admit there's no free will. It takes guts, but let's just say it.
@lukevitek436
@lukevitek436 Жыл бұрын
Have fun having 0 control over your life robit
@lrvogt1257
@lrvogt1257 Жыл бұрын
@@lukevitek436 : Free will is a powerful illusion. Particles are deterministic and we are made of articles. You can do what you want but you can't choose what you want.
@Moepowerplant
@Moepowerplant Жыл бұрын
Guys Putin is innocent. He has no freewill, no one has, and therefore no responsibility whatsoever. Everything he "decides" were set in motion by the interaction of atoms from the beginning of time. Putin did nothing wrong. Putin did nothing at all!
@dfghj241
@dfghj241 9 ай бұрын
that is just not true, man from 7 years ago. the truth is that the implication of no free will is so severe that frankly, it can't be believed. regardless of it being true or not, the exorcism of free will entails that none of us exist. we are automatons, dialetic machines stumbling through the material world. everything that can be thought and discovered will be done so not because of creativity or intent, because these don't exist. what can be discovered, created and thought of will because some people do the effort, and some don't, deterministically. which one of these two are you? you can't decide shit because YOU don't exist. how is this merely a fear of death. it murders YOU, throws YOU away. there is no ME and YOU, there is nothing, whatever i'll do tomorrow is whatever i'll do tomorrow, there is no intention whatsoever, or desire, or anything.
@ooooookam77
@ooooookam77 4 ай бұрын
bro acting smart here like we actually know what about meta desires? conflicting desires and thoughts which one is gonna be picked?@@lrvogt1257
@jaywasd
@jaywasd 8 жыл бұрын
Even if I agreed with you on everything else..the thought experiment wasn't even remotely close to accurate...
@ardidsonriente2223
@ardidsonriente2223 3 жыл бұрын
"Free will does exist" --> Still can't control inner impulses. "Freee will doesn't exist" --> Still has to make decisions. Free Will = TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
@SergioSovi
@SergioSovi 3 жыл бұрын
This argument could be applied to every lie: a man observing you from sky, a promise for heaven, eternal punishment..
@CircumcisionIsChildAbuse
@CircumcisionIsChildAbuse 9 жыл бұрын
Fear of ignorance, is not an excuse for not educating.
@rizz7604
@rizz7604 7 жыл бұрын
Isn't it interesting that the way people think about a certain topic affects the way in which they live. Hm.
@AustinTexas6thStreet
@AustinTexas6thStreet 7 жыл бұрын
Oh, exactly!! To a Hammer all the world looks like nails!! That's why I tell unhappy people that they can completely change their outlook on life. The world is like a screen we Project our beliefs upon!! To a soldier, Life and their decisions will be made through the filter of War & Conflict..... To a cop, Everyone is a potential criminal.....to a salesman, everyone is a potential customer.... To a musician, all the world is alive with music.... To a banker or businessman, every event in life is a potential opportunity to make more money etc etc etc!!!
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
What people? What do they think? If it's all determined, then it is all simply physical phenomena occuring, why consider them as people, and not as pawns?
@j2mfp78
@j2mfp78 6 жыл бұрын
Saying there is no free will is the same as saying we might not exist. "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."
@soolve1
@soolve1 3 жыл бұрын
If this imaginary individual was told that he/she did not have free will, and believed it to be true; therefore comitting a crime. That just show that cause and effect reigns supreme.
@kirito_kun5072
@kirito_kun5072 6 жыл бұрын
I love the concept of free will or not it applies to all aspects of life if you want or idk.
@pilot99991
@pilot99991 8 жыл бұрын
'How can we be “free” as conscious agents if everything that we consciously intend is caused by events in our brain that we do not intend and of which we are entirely unaware?' - Sam Harris. With a conscious intent to be aware of our future thoughts and intents. At that future point, we make a choice. It should make no difference that we gained our 'freedom' unaware of our initial intent.
@LorenzMotors
@LorenzMotors 6 жыл бұрын
This is the most elaborate thought experiment I've ever thought about
@Neil_MALTHUS
@Neil_MALTHUS 2 жыл бұрын
Really? I lost interest the moment it became obvious that he'd present it as religion (/ CAPITALISM) had conditioned him to. I bet you he prefers money to telling the truth.
@abbbb5625
@abbbb5625 3 жыл бұрын
In your example as you demonstrated so brilliantly, you showed to the world we donnot have any free will. Logically, in your example, people having no free will will act negligently and will end up being judged and punished. So why do we have laws, jails, judges, etc... the only one who are morally incompetents are the individuals who believe that the punition is more damageable than the risk. Only a few rare individuals will not act as a moral incompetent person not because they have free will, simply because acting symmetrically to these morally incompetent individual is the force of things to balance the society and have laws. We have no free will but we have the possibility to think, and to think we have free will. Philosophically, a criminal and its victims are a necessity who are sacrificing themselves for the prosperity of the community. Are they aware of that? no they are not, only an external actor can be. QED we have no free will as this example can be adapted to everything we are doing in the society. We have no more free will than the bull grazing and the wold hunting, we are simply fulfilling our natural destiny - and we are doomed to believe otherwise.
@DerekMoore82
@DerekMoore82 6 жыл бұрын
I see a lot of people in the comments confusing influence with free will. They'll say something like, "Carrot! See I bet you're now thinking about a carrot, you can't help it so that means there's no free will." Or is it simply that I'm using my power of observation? There's nothing in that argument about free will. Or another one would be "My dad loved baseball and talked to me about baseball growing up and now I like baseball, so that means there's no free will." But what you're describing is simply influence, which can effect you sure, but it doesn't mean you don't have free will. If a fish in the sea is pushed or tugged by a current it can influence the movement of the fish, but that doesn't mean you now say that proves the fish has no motor functions. If I can change someone's opinion about something, that doesn't mean they don't have their own opinions. Influence is real, but it doesn't get you to saying there's no free will just because will can be influenced. That would be like saying that the holy spirit is real just because some people are influenced by religious arguments. Minds can be affected by outside stimuli and influence, so what? That doesn't mean that we're all puppets on strings. Some people aren't influenced by the same arguments that others are influenced by, not all influence is absolute. And even if it was it wouldn't prove that free will doesn't exist. It would only prove that free will is handicapped in the face of overpowering influences. But you take away the influences and put a person in a quiet environment and watch them make all sorts of interesting choices that you couldn't have always predicted. And even if you could predict them, that wouldn't mean there's no free will either. That would simply mean you're very good at predicting human behavior. If I thought there was no free will I would have a hard time quitting smoking and eating junk food and begin exercising, because it takes a tremendous amount of will power to make those choices. And more than that, it requires that I criticize myself and my actions when I don't make the right choice. I must take responsibility, I don't get to let myself off the hook or I would just continue down the path of least resistance. This idea that we aren't responsible for our actions seems like some sort of lazy way of making excuses for flaws and weakness in order to justify our standing in society or something. It has that weak SJW sort of feel to it. I don't want to take responsibility for my failures so I'll just say I couldn't help being the way I was. Or, I don't want that awful member of society to have their feelings hurt so I'll just say it's not their fault because they were influenced by outside factors and have no free will. It's some kind of lame ass ideology about everyone being helpless victims in which there should be equality regardless of achievement or actions because we need to strip away the accomplishments of the "privileged" and ignore the failures of the oppressed, and just make excuses for weakness because it makes us feel better. At least that's what it sounds like to me.
@dillwad88
@dillwad88 6 жыл бұрын
Derek Moore thank you Derek, that was an awesome counterpoint. I was thinking the same thing but I am not good with words.
@zemaddonzo3504
@zemaddonzo3504 5 жыл бұрын
I kinda see where you're coming from, but I'm pretty convinced we have no free will. If you break down why people perform the actions they do, you can generally trace it back to previous experiences in the past. That which is untouched by previous experiences is most likely influenced by genetics. The way I see it, your sense of "free will" is only the amalgamation of different psychological influences - some conscious, some unconscious
@zemaddonzo3504
@zemaddonzo3504 5 жыл бұрын
To reply to a small part of what you said, the reason why not everyone is swayed by the same arguments is most likely because there are other factors beside logical reasoning that influences whether someone accepts an argument or not. Genetics and and environmental factors influence the weight people put on different arguments. For instance, a person who is generally more emotional and empathetic due to genetic factors, and who has additionally known someone who is homeless, is more likely to donate to charities aimed to helping the homeless - compared to someone who is less likely to be empathetic and is more selfish due to genetics, and has no connection to homeless people. This of course is a highly simplified example. A vast array of factors will influence people's decisions, in addition to some element of randomness due to quantum events. But generally if you take the time to break down why people do what they do and feel the way they do, free will doesn't really add up. It's more so like our brain gives us a sense of control, but in reality we are not actually in control
@zemaddonzo3504
@zemaddonzo3504 5 жыл бұрын
Furthermore, there have been many studies that have seriously thrown down upon the idea of free will. Many studies hint to an idea that a decision is made by the brain even before a person becomes conscious of the decision
@zemaddonzo3504
@zemaddonzo3504 5 жыл бұрын
Other studies show changes in personality and the types of choices people make in response to changes to the brain
@Earthad23
@Earthad23 8 жыл бұрын
I've been convinced that my will is not free from causality , and I've yet to feel like I am free of consequence, this is a childish point of view, all this realization does for anyone is you feel less judgmental and you don't take yourself too seriously , a man can will what he wants he can't will what he wills. Pretty simple
@Teaganbear
@Teaganbear 8 жыл бұрын
that doesn't sound simple at all friend, you're not realllly explaining how you decided this and how know you for sure
@AustinTexas6thStreet
@AustinTexas6thStreet 7 жыл бұрын
I roughly agree with you!! And I don't even need you to give me reasons or proof because I already understand your point of view and why you say that.....at least in a general sense!! Even in times when I was fairly certain that Free Will is an illusion, i Nsver Ever felt "Free" of consequences....I agree with you that it's a childish and simplistic take on Determinism!! When people say, "So, I can just do whatever I want, even commit terrible crimes, and it's not my fault?", I always say to them, "sure, you will do whatever you were already always gonna do but, just as it is Determined that you will commit a crime, it is also Determined that others will throw you in jail".... They don't see that it really doesn't change a single thing about our lives but it can be a useful way to look at things, like when you say it made you be "less judgmental"!!
@AustinTexas6thStreet
@AustinTexas6thStreet 7 жыл бұрын
Think of it like this: if you had exponentially more Intelligence and Information about the Universe, you could predict Everything that will Ever happen....but, in reality, *WE* lack the ability!! Imagine playing a game of poker or blackjack with a group of people....if YOU had ALL the necessary Information about All of the cards and their locations, as well as knowing HOW the others would choose to play the cards they get, you could easily predict Every single card and playing of the cards that would Ever happen before it happened..... BUT... We don't have the ability to gain that Knowledge or the brain power to process it all and in those cases we refer to things like *Luck* and *Chance*!! But Luck and Chance are just ways of saying that we are unable to process all the needed Info to predict every event..... It is in this way that our "Free Will" exists!! We woefully lack the necessary Knowledge and brain power to compute it all so, lacking the ability to predict the resulting *Causal Chain*, we refer to "Free Will" because, from OUR perspective, it Seems like We choose things at random or for whatever reasons. Just like "Luck", Free Will does Not exist but it Does exist from Our very limited perspective....Free Will is an Illusion but it is a *Functional Illusion*!! It's all about Knowledge and Subjective Point of View!!
@stevenewsom3269
@stevenewsom3269 4 жыл бұрын
It is liberating in an ironic way to come to understand that one likely has little to no free will.
@davidkatuin4527
@davidkatuin4527 5 жыл бұрын
Well , I guess it depends on how you want to either define it or have your own meaning as to what free will is. Becoming familiar with the three operating systems of being human will make it easier to be aware of the complexities of decision making.
@MarianneHMiettinen
@MarianneHMiettinen 10 ай бұрын
And those three operating systems are? System 1, system 2, (system 3?) ? Rationality, intuitions and a third
@arcad1an292
@arcad1an292 7 жыл бұрын
"Free" is an idea. Nothing is free, all is connected and dependent on each other, our consciousness is no different.
@BIngeilski
@BIngeilski 6 жыл бұрын
WISE ARCADIAN good point! The idea “free” is relative and subjective. So is our “will” (which is also just an idea) can not be absolutely free
@dogebread4952
@dogebread4952 8 жыл бұрын
This man is surprisingly dissonant to this issue, and embarrassingly obtuse to the reality of the hypothetical cases he refers to. A very poor addressing of the free will issue, daniel, and well below what you should be capable of :/
@jlareaux5504
@jlareaux5504 8 жыл бұрын
He needs to back off the subject of freewill....while he still has cred
@jlareaux5504
@jlareaux5504 8 жыл бұрын
***** Predestined for sure,hahaha
@circular17
@circular17 8 жыл бұрын
Wow you really think that his views have virtually no value because they are different from yours?
@AustinTexas6thStreet
@AustinTexas6thStreet 7 жыл бұрын
Don't be too hard on him, he couldn't help it.....this was All Determined at the moment of the Big Bang!!
@greenbmxer94
@greenbmxer94 6 жыл бұрын
Consider that he's addressing the trend of neuroscientists to come out with sensationalist videos describing free will as something we do not have, without properly conceptualizing it. Not everyone understands free will, or the difference between it and agency. In Harris's videos, he deliberately (refer to Mr. Dennett's comments on their mischief) makes it seem as if humans have no control over their fate and if we all just stopped trying and making decisions tomorrow, life would carry on. Anyone who knows better, of course, knows that they in fact have agency and what Harris is describing is not that the decision themselves, but rather where the decision comes from, is predetermined. It is a crucial distinction that is absent only to boost arguments and views by making the argument seem far more controversial than it is. Dennett seems to agree with the argument that those neuroscientists are making about free will, he just disagrees about the way it is being presented lately.
@danicajvv
@danicajvv 4 жыл бұрын
Notwithstanding structural issues with his argument, he is correct: the more we believe we have no free will, the less responsive we tend to behave. The more we believe are are fully responsive for our actions, generally the less wrekless we behave. I think determinism is often used as a cop-out: I'm not free so why even try to control my behaviour? Believing that we are fully free and this responsible is indeed a sobering thought - no room for scapegoats.
@technomage6736
@technomage6736 4 жыл бұрын
On the contrary, this is exactly what has better helped me understand myself. Instead of thinking I was simply a flawed person, I realized the things that were causing me to feel and act the way I did, I realized it was understandable that these circumstances would cause my current state, and this realization gave me the peace and understanding I needed to break out of these flaws where I can, and accept them where I can't.
@joshatkins94
@joshatkins94 6 жыл бұрын
"[Galen] Strawson is right. I do not establish the kind of ultimate free will or moral responsibility that most people want to believe in and do believe in. That can't be done, and I know it." - Daniel Dennett
@Illlium
@Illlium 9 жыл бұрын
So his argument is basically "They are not wrong, but people can't handle the truth". At least that's what I'm understanding out of this.
@TheMasturCheef
@TheMasturCheef 8 жыл бұрын
Sorry, but this is pretty much equivalent to arguing we should never reveal to children that santa doesn't exist because they might get sad - this would REALLY be immoral! We need to face the facts. There is clearly absolutely zero evidence that our brains and therefore our will are some how "free" in the magic sense of being free from the deterministic (or random, doesn't make it better) underlying physical processes. The problem is that some neuroscientists and psychologists are kind of stupid or rather hype-prostitutes. Their claim sells. But in the end it's as much bullshit to say "free will" doesn't exist as it is to say "love doesn't exist, it's all hormones". Both exist. Both are simply subjective feelings and they are quite meaningful to us. Our sense (call it illusion if you want) of freedom of will allows us to distinguish between actions we were forced to do, either by extrinsic factors (e.g. a threat) or intrinsic factors (like o.c.d.) or if we were "free" to decide meaning that our healthy brain considered the choices and came to the conclusion it came to.
@TheMasturCheef
@TheMasturCheef 8 жыл бұрын
It's unconscious processes pulling the strings. Consciously we only perceive to be in charge or not to be in charge while the consciousness is itself not actually the process pulling these strings, even though it beliefs to be.
@genekelly8565
@genekelly8565 5 жыл бұрын
At one point, near the end of the film, Dennett says something to the effect, and I will quote this part, that the thought that they gave the students that they did not have free will "made them" cheat on the test that was given to them to earn money. Did anyone else hear that? He contradicts himself by saying that, does he not?
@fabiocaetanofigueiredo1353
@fabiocaetanofigueiredo1353 5 жыл бұрын
It took me approximately 40 years to encounter a person whose opinions and statements I would never agree with... then I came across Mr. Dennett. Anyone with me?
@Neil_MALTHUS
@Neil_MALTHUS 2 жыл бұрын
Totally.
@fabiocaetanofigueiredo1353
@fabiocaetanofigueiredo1353 2 жыл бұрын
@@Neil_MALTHUS Great!!! I'm not alone!
@blakewentley
@blakewentley 3 жыл бұрын
So basically what he's saying is: People don't have free will, so you shouldn't tell them they don't have free will, because they will necessarily start doing more terrible things, because they are machines that are controlled from outside themselves
@relskull3324
@relskull3324 8 ай бұрын
control from outside and inside but we have free choice, which is also very limited but free will no we have no free will
@Wambumbu
@Wambumbu 9 жыл бұрын
Noticing the truth behind your own mind is actually a good thing. Once you realize that you are not the product of your own choices, and that the choices that you do take are not actually yours at a fundamental level, you can actually do something positive with your life. Also, it can create more compassion between people since it is easier to apologize. If you accept the notion that we do not have free will, there is no more place for hate.
@sguraya7223
@sguraya7223 3 жыл бұрын
If your compassion stems from regarding others as not having agency, it is not compassion, it is arrogance.
@shanebrownlee69
@shanebrownlee69 Жыл бұрын
So basically, saying that you have no free will is an excuse to not be accountable for your actions? How convenient.
@troy3456789
@troy3456789 Жыл бұрын
I love this fact about it. Thank you. Free will really is nothing more than a feeling of agency. When you realize that the belligerent person before you had no control over all the events that up to the point they are angry before you, you cannot help but feel compassion, or completely neutral; but there is no way you can hate them for it.
@troy3456789
@troy3456789 Жыл бұрын
@@shanebrownlee69 This feeling of free will only gives rise to needless violence and hatred toward others. No good thing comes from that illusion and *feeling* of free will. It pretends that every human has all the same choices before them, when they do not. If you have free will, you would've chosen to be wise and to only allow evidence to create your beliefs. You didn't choose your parents, or their parents, or their parents. You didn't choose the culture in which you were raised. If you were raised in a Muslim culture; you didn't choose it. If you were raised in a Christian culture; you didn't choose that either (and neither did all those in that culture choose their raising either). You can't even choose the foods you like or dislike, or the kinds of movies you like or dislike; because if you had free will you could change on a dime (your tastes in foods, or your tastes in movies). Did you choose the language you speak, or languages you had to learn to get along in the world? Did you choose the various philosophies that were presented to you? If you didn't understand certain maths in school, such as calculus or algebra II or differential trigonometry? Did you choose for those concepts to be too slowly absorbed into your brain? Did students that "got it" and aced it choose their brains? No, they didn't and you didn't choose yours either. You have about as much free will over your thoughts as you have free will over what I will say next; and that is absolute fact. *Your opinions, your beliefs, your certainties, even the way you react to someone saying something is absolutely, 100% involuntary*
@shanebrownlee69
@shanebrownlee69 Жыл бұрын
@@troy3456789 most of what you're saying doesn't make any sense and I've heard the same claims from socialists a lot lately. It's flawed logic at best and deceitful at worst. The argument eventually goes down the path of, "since you don't have free will, we should have a core of tenets that tells you what to do because we know what's best for you." Just no. Sure, we have many qualities that are completely involuntary, but that doesn't mean that everything we do isn't a choice in free will. I love pizza involuntarily, but I choose to not eat it for every meal so that I don't get type 2 diabetes and potentially die of heart disease. I involuntarily love smoking cigarettes, but through free will I choose to not smoke(4 years strong) so that maybe I won't develop lung or throat cancer some day. I involuntarily love fast cars, but I choose to not do 150 mph every chance I get because of the potential consequences. All of the above examples that I've named are things that some people choose to continue doing, yes, via free will, regardless of said consequences. The "no free will" argument is used as a weapon against individualism, property ownership, and capitalistic ideas and it's flat out wrong. The argument you're making will never succeed in controlling the masses and I'd bet my life on it. Edit: You argument also implies that people are not accountable for their actions and that's a terrible thing to say, especially to impressionable people in the world.
@ClipsCrazy__
@ClipsCrazy__ 2 ай бұрын
BRUH his experiments he brought up that showed that telling people we don’t have free will makes them cheat more on the puzzle was a great example of our lack of free will 🤣🤣🤣
@mbrt777
@mbrt777 5 жыл бұрын
the whole idea of "not being free" presupposes that there is, in this universe, a contrary condition of "being free". if humans aren't free (and we are the most complex systems that we have found so far), then nothing is. claiming that you are not free is a logical fallacy, based on the misuse of language.
@fayeevpt
@fayeevpt 8 жыл бұрын
"stop telling people they don't have free will... Even though they don't"
@sahlofolina2994
@sahlofolina2994 4 жыл бұрын
the perspective he looks at free will is rather a moral view than that of a scientific.
@quagmire444
@quagmire444 9 жыл бұрын
Trying to convince people they dont have free will wont do anything. In the end we all still feel like it and the feeling of having free will is important to our actions.
@grantsachs
@grantsachs Жыл бұрын
I have a few things to respond to this with: 1. This is an immature understanding of the implications and mature expression of integrating the reality of no-doer/no-free will etc. A healthy integration of this notion is that one recognizes that in an ultimate sense, they have no control over anything/no free will, but in a relative sense, they take up a sense of responsibility and accountability for their lives nonetheless. The thought experiment Mr. Dennett put forth here demonstrates that most individuals operate their morality from a sense of guilt/shame - i.e. that they do things the "right" way not because it feels right but because they either don't want to receive repercussions or don't want to live with the guilt of having done something they "shouldn't" have. A mature expression of morality is grounded in a why that transcends this sense of guilt/shame. Acting in a way that feels true is better than acting in a way that we "should". That's just an idea. And most people will find, if they really connect deeply with what's "true" inside them, that there is an inherent sense of morality in them, defined as a propensity and desire to act with positive regard for the world. People who are in touch with that intrinsic positive regard are far more powerful (with respect to agency/free will) than those who act "morally" because of their conditioning. So, effectively Mr. Dennett is keeping individuals less free (in a relative sense), bound to social conditioning all while hiding the truth from them at the same time. I cannot see a win there ---- In my own experience, realization of no free will has been both profoundly healing and a mere stepping stone to deeper agency. It's been a cornerstone of my ability to forgive myself and others for mistakes and transgressions, it's a vehicle for compassion. It also has helped me at times to get over regrets, recognizing that in an ultimate sense, things couldn't have been any other way. It's important to consider that while we have no ultimate control over ourselves and neither do others, that it's not in our best interest to shift our locus of control completely to the external. The reality is, that if we respond from a place of no agency, it has the ability to harms us, but instead i encourage us all to engage from a place that is authentic and honest, rooted in our personal (not societal) values. We can move in a way that takes responsibility for our lives without pretending we have free will - it's not fully integrated if your response to realizing no free will is to abdicate your responsibility for your life. It's actually paradoxically true that we have no free will, no control, but that the way we show up still matters, that how we choose to respond to each moment still matters/has an effect (in the absolute sense, no free will, in the relative sense, the experience of making choices still exists and is important)
@JerettOlson
@JerettOlson 8 жыл бұрын
I think people are missing his point. What he explaining is that their are negative consequences to telling people they have no free will. That people should rethink telling others that they have no free will, so to avoid the negative consequences.
@ryandbowers
@ryandbowers 9 жыл бұрын
So sometimes its dangerous to tell the truth? Should we start telling comforting lies? Sounds oddly familiar.
@Ren99510
@Ren99510 9 жыл бұрын
He isn't saying we should lie. He is asking neuroscience to be a bit more responsible when explaining our lack of free will. Many just assume when they hear that "WELL, THAT MEANS I DONT CHOOSE ANYTHING MYSELF HUH?" When what it really means is that while me and you decided what we wore today, it technically could have been predicted by an extremely complicated mathematical equation. When you explain it like that, the fact that we don't have free will... really means nothing at all in relation to our every day activities.
@freethoughtgreg6424
@freethoughtgreg6424 6 жыл бұрын
No its not familiar. But on an unrelated not you need to accept jesus as your magical sky daddy. It will comfort you.
@j0tt0
@j0tt0 6 жыл бұрын
The last experiment with the students just confirms even more how we are product of causality stimuli-response mechanisms. the knowledge of the illusion of free will turned those students less responsibles twards the task. i think that when discussing and specially teaching the subject of free will we must not only show the neuroscience evidence but also what Dennett is saying here.
@firerabbit811
@firerabbit811 5 жыл бұрын
Some comments suggest a misunderstanding of what the speaker is trying to accomplish. He didn't say that free will DOES exist, he said to stop TELLING PEOPLE that it DOESN'T.
@thomaskist9503
@thomaskist9503 Жыл бұрын
It would seem when people are told they don’t have free will they give less energy to their though process and follow their instincts more. This is bad, balance is important here.
@HkFinn83
@HkFinn83 3 жыл бұрын
I’ve concocted a little thought experiment myself. I forget much of the specifics but it ends with me having a tenured Professorship and a series of banal pop science books. It’s difficult to accept that my glory isn’t a reflection of my own magnificence. Also you guys should read some Tony Robins, he’ll learn ya to be a success real good.
@SuperMaxxxey
@SuperMaxxxey 6 жыл бұрын
and suddenly ever1 in the comment section is an Phd in Free Will and Determinism.
@nGUNNARp
@nGUNNARp 4 жыл бұрын
yeah cause they just listened to a philosopher postulate an analogy that it is so unbelievably flawed that even the dumbest of us can pick it apart...if you never saw a football game before, but then met tom brady and thew the ball around with him and he couldn't even throw a spiral, you might think you had a knack for the NFL too...that's how you do analogies ;)
@technomage6736
@technomage6736 4 жыл бұрын
Is there such thing as having a PhD in those subjects?
@TheWaggishAmerican
@TheWaggishAmerican 3 жыл бұрын
@Kelvin Klopper ikr, these comments is an appeal to authority fallacy, which is particularly mystifying why they get so smug about it when the authority isn't even their own.
@Baun92
@Baun92 2 жыл бұрын
This is why Harris said Dennett is almost dogmatic in his thinking, because he would rather maintain the illusion of free will than have the truth, which he labels neuroscientists "irresponsible" for sharing.
@inditsnotdenon922
@inditsnotdenon922 7 жыл бұрын
For me the truth is more important than the actions created by it. If people were to commit crimes we must culture them not too, not through lies but through the creation of value
@InMaTeofDeath
@InMaTeofDeath 9 жыл бұрын
I always thought the free will debate was rather pointless. When we talk about free will everyone agrees that even if it was somehow proven that we don't have free will, it still FEELS like we do have it. So what it comes down to is we either have the illusion of free will, or true free will, and if you really think about it, there isn't much difference between those two options.
@joshboston2323
@joshboston2323 6 жыл бұрын
InMaTeofDeath-actually, sam Harris addresses this point quite well. The subjective experience of free will is an illusion as well. You should look it up.
@dokidelta1175
@dokidelta1175 5 жыл бұрын
Well it feels like the earth is flat. So who cares if we believe in that right? No knowledge of free will may lead to some more scientific discoveries in the future. Maybe we will one day learn to predict human behavior and therefore stop crimes before they happen?
@matbroomfield
@matbroomfield 9 жыл бұрын
Multiple foolish arguments in one video. Nice Job Daniel. The first is simply an appeal to consequences - "If people know that they have no free will, then they behave worse". I disagree with this because whilst a short term realisation of no free will may affect "morality", in the long term, this belief no more enters into daily decision making than the knowledge of free will does. One makes decisions based upon expedience and the values of the moment. But even if it was true, should psychologists hide the truth because it's unpalatable? This amounts to nothing more than the Christian argument that without god, there can be no morality. The subconscious programming that governs decision is still programmed by morality, whether one has free will or not.
@petruska111
@petruska111 8 ай бұрын
We cannot even theoretically calculate everything that someone will do, has done or is going to do. On the subatomic level we can only calculate possibilities.
@Ponk_80
@Ponk_80 4 жыл бұрын
Thoughts shows us that we don’t have free will, we can’t decide what we want to remember and can’t choose our next thought, all we can do is decide what to decide based on the thoughts and memories we have in that exact moment. Example: there was a red and blue button you encountered in the past, but for some reason You remember it as a green switch, and that when you tried to turn it on or off the indicator light didn’t turn on, so You have no idea of knowing if the switch is turned on or off. So how can we have free will if our own brain can implant false memories into our mind. It’s so easy to manipulate us because we have no say in what we can or can not remember, so basing our decisions on a flawed memory is simply not a good enough argument for having free will. It is not free will as long as memory decides what we can choose from. It’s like saying You have free will as long as You choose the things I tell You to decide from.
Жыл бұрын
Write down what you wanna remember ;)
@luddity
@luddity 7 жыл бұрын
We have free will when we choose to apply our consciousness to it instead of just cruising on autopilot. The body acts instinctively in a biologically programmed fashion but when we are observing that process closely, we can take the wheel instead of just being a passenger. And we can even reprogram the body's responses to stimuli by conscious awareness and effort. And those who claim it cannot be done should get the hell out of the way of those who are doing it.
@ionescho
@ionescho Жыл бұрын
your consciousness is a product of your brain which is an organ in your body which is composed of cells which are composed of molecules which work deterministically by the rules of chemistry and physics so in a sense it's simply a phenomenon(like lightning or clouds albeit a much more complex one). You're talking as if your consciousness is something different than your body which it is NOT. A part of you(neocortex) can override another part of you but that in itself is also deterministic.
@valrup2066
@valrup2066 Жыл бұрын
Keep ya knickers on sunshine
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