He’s completely wrong about trauma at birth from separation. 100 % proven. I’ve been a foster mom and adoptive mom. It’s heart wrenching and painful to watch that separation happen. Leaving after 6 months is even worse. There is no way to fix that. Adopt or don’t be a parent.

As a foster mom I have done many courses on trauma and there is absolutely trauma when a child is removed from the mother at birth…so clearly this process will cause issues to the baby/child/adult. It may not be an obvious trauma but it has affected the brain

Love how Allie is so respectful and kind to guests with different views/lifestyles, yet so fearless and crystal clear in speaking truth

Great convo, Allie! I used to be a christless conservative, and I loved your channel back then too, I became a Christian last January, and I seriously didn't realize that I was an enemy of God and yet craved his law and morals. I pray for this guy to come's into a saving relationship with the Lord and to know and have a personal relationship with him. I pray for our country as a whole and all our leaders. Thank you for standing up and being consistent, Allie. God bless you.

Allie is in no way saying that a child created through surrogacy should not be allowed to live once created, she is saying we should not be creating children through the process of surrogacy. Surrogacy does intentionally break bonds as that is the intent of surrogacy from the beginning in most cases.

Agree with you Allie 100%. It is WRONG to create children for sale, for adults who focus on what they want and are willing to pay for it. Thank you for speaking for the unborn children. They are NOT commodities for sale. Keep speaking out on this important subject.

No human beings should be bought or sold. We are not commodities.

He says: "what if a straight couple cannot conceive" My answer: "there is an ADOPTION!"

imagine if a rapist said “if she gets pregnant, I’m actually giving a gift to that child of life-not a gift for me. therefore I see no issue with rape”

Yes being separated from your bio mom at birth is a proven fact that there is a primal wound. There is a separation that hits so deep. I was given up at birth and I definitely grew up with a huge wound in my soul because of that separation. So I am sure those who are conceived via surrogacy can also feel that wound as well.

The book Them Before Us by Katy Faust really solidified my views about issues surrounding surrogacy. I recommend it to everyone. We should be prioritizing children's needs over adults' desires.

What a good conversation. So happy to see respectful dialogue. The needs of CHILDREN need to stay central as we discuss this issue. Infants don’t have a “voice” and we have to raise a voice for them.

Even though I don’t share Clarksons view, I support his work or commentaries against child predators and transgender ideology 🙏🏻

Some things in life are complicated. This is not. It’s never ok to buy babies, rent a womb or intentionally leave a child without their mother and father. Period. And this is not a religious issue for me (I am not religious but love Relatable!). This is about ethics and not traumatizing children.

This was such a great conversation. Allie brought her points out fiercely and respectfully

After watching Allie’s podcast with Jennifer Lahl I am definitely not afraid to say I am against surrogacy and the increased normalization or trending of it. Also, I pray that this man will find Christ and really have his eyes opened to the truth.

Allie, as a Catholic thank you so much for standing up for the truth on this issue!

I don't think he's being honest with himself. He says he wants to give the gift of life to a child who hasn't even been conceived yet. He says the gift is for his future child, but we all know HE is the one who wants this child. The gift of life is for him & his partner. Like Allie said children's rights trump adults wishes.

I was a licensed practical nurse for 35 years and have worked for years with the newborns to 2 year olds at our large church ministry. There is nothing more sad than a baby being separated from their parent for the first time.They scream, cry and pull back towards the parent. Most do settle down but some do not, we have to call their parents. Can’t imagine working in daycare when the child cannot leave. Even worse is when the parents divorce, it greatly affects the children. When the parents come back 2-4 hours later, the child is so happy to see his mom OR dad. Even foster care children are happy to see their foster parent but the relationship is not as intense. My mother and I do not have the best relationship but I must say I am thankful for the good that there was; she did try. But children are easily hurt and they have such deep feelings for their parent and siblings. This is so wrong. It’s a sin-sick world but this is wrong! I’m no writer but how hard this must be for babies and children. God created moms and dads for a reason. Marriage between a man and a woman is the best ideal there can be, God does not make mistakes in His plan for the best for us. Not having children is better than tearing them away from their mother and her family; this is important as well. Too horribly sad. This man cannot see the damage he wants to cause! These poor children!💔🙏🏼

He was fantastic at strawmaning her position and pretending like not creating the child is the same as killing a child! Obviously he must be 100% against all forms of contraception, right? *Crickets*

To be honest, I never gave surrogacy a thought until people started talking about it. I’ve realized I’m against it for many of the reasons Allie brings up. I’m not particularly religious (though, I listen to this show), but even on secular grounds, it seems wrong to me.

As a man who once lived under the false pretense of a homosexual lifestyle for many years, I now look back on my misguided beliefs and the harmful ideology that fueled them. I, too, once thought that adoption or surrogacy were the only ways for two gay men to achieve fatherhood. In hindsight, I am ashamed of my past self and the disappointment I must have caused God with my thoughts and actions. Now, I firmly believe that two men or two women in a relationship should never raise children together. Not only does this go against God's design and nature, but it also contradicts the healthy development of His children. Without a mother, nurturing a child becomes artificial and contrived. The statement made earlier about this being human trafficking is, in some cases, correct. Although not all instances of surrogacy fall under this category, it is clear that gay men are trying to claim surrogacy for themselves, often bypassing important checks and regulations. Millennial-aged men are becoming increasingly obsessed with becoming fathers through surrogacy, and this obsession is not only sinful but also shameful. The opportunity to bring life into the world is meant to be between one man and one woman, united as one flesh through marriage. It is important to raise awareness about the growing trend of gay men becoming arbiters of surrogacy without much public resistance. However, we must accelerate our efforts to prevent those with malicious intentions from exploiting this system. Downplaying the sin of homosexuality is a sure way to distance oneself from God's grace and mercy. I understand that my words may offend some people, but I pray that those who find them objectionable will come to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. To my fellow Christians, please do not believe the lies of homosexuality. If you see another Christian equating the sin of a boyfriend and girlfriend having sex to that of two men or two women having sex, you must correct them. While both sins lead to separation from God, they are not equal in terms of consequences. Do not spread heresy.

I have seen him on TikTok and agreed with him on many issues! Thank you for having him on. So intriguing

He mentioned life being a gift to the child born of surrogacy... How is it a gift to the child if it is being done for the self of the parent?

Alli, the way you explain this. Wow! Great job, servant of Christ! Great great great debate. Loved hearing this from both sides!

Lila Rose and Allie Stuckey are the absolute best defenders for women and children in our modern culture right now. I will be pointing my daughter to their podcasts one day when we get into these difficult discussions!

I agree that surrogacy is not the way to go for anyone … hetero or homosexual couples. It’s wrong for the child created, the person who should be of primary importance. As someone else said just because we can does not mean we should.

I gave birth at a day shy of 37 weeks. My son had to go to the NICU after an hour because he needed help breathing for a day. I had a mental breakdown being separated from him for that day. I knew he was safe and exactly where he needed to be but I could not handle being separated from my baby.

The root of all of these pseudo situations where we think we can replace nature; are generated from a place of selfishness. Regardless of my personal religious beliefs or feelings; the problem of not being able to naturally create a child...does not entitle anyone to create a child through someone else and then deprive the mother and child of a relationship. I believe the same with artificial insemination and depriving a child of a father because a mother wants a child and has no father for the child. The innocent child always pays the heftiest price and that is a disgustingly selfish thing for adults to be inflicting on children.

Allie -- You are so well-spoken and an inspiration to me! Your perspective is so refreshing in a world of lies and confusion. God bless you!

I appreciated this debate! I also share Allie's position, but I respect Clarkson for coming on the show for the conversation.

"Laws are a reflection of a society's morals"

His circular reasoning regarding life is precious, is exhausting! All life is precious! He isn’t acknowledging that these babies born by surrogacy would never even have been conceived if not for the selfishness of the buyers of that baby. My heart aches for these babies. Allie is a champion!

I am amazed at how respectful the discussion is being held even though the views are very opposing. Regarding the topic I totally agree with Allie.

His assertion that the pain a surrogate child feels is not what they say it is - the loss of the bond between mother and child - is so dismissive to that person whose story it is. Not only is there overwhelming anecdotal evidence of this loss but it is also supported by science. I appreciate that he was willing to have the conversation, but this guy is just not using his noggin very well. Just by his demeanor, it seems he actually knew what you were saying was true and he just wasn't willing to concede the points. On an aside: common sense is so rare these days. The posturing and twisting taking place to justify this is just sad. Thanks for speaking up. Mad, deep respect, Allie.

I disagree with him so much, but I'm glad he's willing to have a conversation with someone who so strongly disagree with him. Our country would be in a better state if people could just talk to each other. This was a good conversation.

Why would he think leaving the baby with the mother for longer wouldn't intensify the bond and create an even larger wound for both mother and child. My child is visibly more attached to me. I couldn't hand my child to another person outside of me and dad unless she was asleep bc she was anxious. Their needs to be so many more laws around sperm, egg, and surrogacy services. This stuff should only be allowed when a married man and woman can't naturally conceive and have a family member/ friend who is willing to be a surrogate for free. Plus, there should be an investigation into the couple similar to what happens in adoption.

Allie, thank you so much for hosting this conversation! I share the same perspective as you on children’s rights and have a lot of respect for Clarkson, in his coming on your show.

He kept saying “life is a gift”. My question would be, “who is the giver?” I think that is the fundamental difference here. One side believes that God is the giver of life, that He gives and He and takes away. The other side believes that they are the givers of life.

Great, respectful and interesting conversation! 👏 Good job Allie.

I have serious, serious issues with surrogacy, but even if we tried to give these arguments the benefit of the doubt, it falls apart when you actually get into the details regarding the bond between the mother and the baby. Clarkson seems to want to indeed be mindful of the child, but even if we allowed the surrogate mother to remain in the baby's life for however long necessary, it still wouldn't be enough, because she either would have to stop her life to be there for the baby 24/7 (and not to mention invading the parents' lives), or she wouldn't be available that often because she has her life to tend to, in which case the baby is the one deprived of what he/she needs. No matter how you look at this practice, the baby will always go through something traumatic at birth. So I truly don't understand being okay with this when there are so many babies and children in need of a home that would be ecstatic to be adopted. (As a sidenote, I have enjoyed hearing Clarkson every time I've come across him in videos, and I liked him here too, but yes, the arguments don't hold. Also, Allie, I would say you should interrupt less next time! Regardless, it was a good conversation from both)

On the “life is a gift” discussion: - Yes, life is a gift. However, usually we say this about people who have already been conceived. If a baby has been conceived and will be born into less than ideal circumstances, or even if an adult is living through a rough patch, of course we will emphasise that being alive is more important, and we should be grateful for our lives. However, this is neither here nor there, as we are talking about babies who haven’t yet been conceived; - On that point, Clarkson said he would never tell a woman who is poor not to have a child, and I would agree, but I would also point out that this is a false equivalency. With poverty the child may not have as many opportunities, but their struggles will be external to them and there’s a decent chance the child will be able to outgrow them and do good in life with the correct guidance. With surrogacy we are giving the child psychological and emotional struggles, which they may carry for their whole lives. So their struggles would come from them instead of external circumstances, and may very well alter them psychologically forever; - While generally speaking I would agree that having children is a good thing, there are 100% situations where conceiving a child is nothing but selfish. Grabbing on the poverty example, let’s say that instead of people with some financial struggles we are talking about people who genuinely struggle to put food on the table. Yes, you shouldn’t be conceiving a child when you don’t have anything to feed them with. It would indeed be selfish to do so when you know you can’t properly care for the child. Similarly, you could argue that despite life being a gift, if conceiving a child means potentially traumatizing them and depriving them of their mother, then you are directly harming your child and that is obviously morally reprehensible.

I have yet to hear of a surrogate made adult person grateful for the process. They're always questioning, at most depressed with a feeling of "emptiness". They can still be happy and grateful for life, made in the image of God regardless, but still "missing something". When they do find their biological family through DNA websites, often times with many siblings, their bond even when created even in adulthood is apparent. To want and create a surrogate child is inherently selfish. I've seen it first hand.

I think the whole debate sits around should life be created outside of sex within a heterosexual marriage. I believe that IVF has brought about a huge number of ethical issues, surrogacy being just one of them.

Humans are not puppies. Humans have certain BIOLOGICAL NEEDS to be attached to their mothers for the first 3 years.

He’s starting with the belief that both forms of conception are the same. And that’s the problem. If we say children aren’t a right and putting all these limits and restrictions then it will have to be applied equally. Even to natural conception. And that is VERY dangerous.

Clarkson was getting roasted by Allee. Allee was just robotically going bam bam bam and seasoning his beliefs. She is on fire

It’s like talking to a brick wall, Allie. He’s not getting it. Sad.

I do think this was a great conversation! I think Clarkson Lawson is incredibly respectful in getting his point across.

If separating a baby from its mother at birth is hard…doing it after 6 months would be heart wrenching & traumatic. It would never work. And anyone who thinks that it could has obviously never been a nursing mother, who forms a closer bond with their baby every single day, every single minute they are together.

We should also be talking about the fact that children conceived through egg/sperm donation could have many siblings they don’t know about… how does that mentally/emotionally effect them (wondering if they could end up dating/marrying/sleeping with someone related to them, knowing their could be 10s to 100s of people out there, “siblings” related to them they don’t know just like their biological parent, etc.). So many negative implications on the egg/sperm donation industry (no limits, no testing, etc.). Why is this not talked about more in these type on conversation/debates??

Good conversation, your guest was standup guy very respectful.

I appreciate you and your Channel Allie but a little constructive criticism would be to try not to interrupt your guest so much. He was very respectful to not interrupt you, but you did interrupt him a lot. I'm so guilty of this often so I notice it more. But it does weaken arguments when we interrupt too much.

Who would’ve guessed that the man that’s sterile by choice would be pro-surrogate

He’s talking about logic and reason. Has he thought about the logic and reason of why natural conception is the way it is?

I'd be so nervous to debate with Allie 😂 I will say though... Allie please try not to interupt people as much 😅 He didn’t interupt you but you interupted him sooo many times. I have this issues too ❤ I agree with you Allie! GOD BLESSSSS ❤

It feels so narcissistic when he says that being given life by him would be such a gift to the child 😂😂

Wow what a great wholesome debate. I think I agree with him that religion is brought up first and shuts peoples ears off. We need to keep it at the forefront but iv think we need to rethink and reword how we talk to people whom aren't religious. I use too agree to surrogacy, but I no longer do. (This was before this podcast)

Yes. Some issues are not compromisable.

This was an excellent debate. Both of you stayed on topic and made intelligent points. I think surrogacy is dangerous for society because it harms individuals in a multitude of ways. You hit on one of the main points here in the interview about the lost natural right of the connection of a child to their parents. I appreciate you bringing on a guest who is smart, courteous, and makes thought provoking points. It helps me think through the best arguments the other side has. Keep up the good work, Allie! ❤

A childless gay man arguing like a mother’s connection to her baby is of no concern is just hilarious. So sad.

In the morning when I rise give me JESUS CHRIST & coffee praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all

Thank you God for the gift of an eternal life in heaven amen praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all

Love Clarkson and all he’s done with GaysAgainstGroomers. It’s evident he’s got a great head on his shoulders but his own situation clouds the ability to view this issue clearly. I pray God opens his heart and mind to the reality going on and he adopts one day to become a dad.

Great debate!

Great job, Allie! You are an excellent representative for those of us who hold this position.

Yes... the need of a human being to know who they are and where they came from is the very core of what is not natural...the child's emotions/needs cannot be taken into account. Thats the ethical dilemma.

I wish she would talk about sick people buying children and abusing them too

For him to act like he’s bringing the child into this earth as a gift to the child rather than for his own desires is a complete cop out.

Foster/adoptive mom of 5 here (and biological mom to 3 more). The scientific answer to Clarkson’s question regarding how long that wound lasts is forever. It is for their entire lives. I have kids removed at birth and kids removed up to 6 years old. And their wound is deep and real. In fact, there are scientific studies showing that the bond being broken from the womb to 12 weeks old can cause more damage than bonds being broken later. Also, the gift of life does not apply to non-existent humans. Before a child is conceived, they don’t exist to give a gift to. So no. The gift of life to a non-existent child does not outweigh the trauma done. I full understand that Clarkson cannot understand what that maternal bond is and how deep it runs, and the damage done when it is severed. He’s not a mom, of course he cannot. But mothers do, and science does. And we need to listen to those who know the damage done when mothers and children are separated. Please, please, don’t be selfish when it comes to children. They deserve adults who will make unselfish, informed decisions on their behalf.

I totally understand defending surrogacy because I wish it was moral. My husband and I are going through infertility and knowing that IVF and surrogacy are immoral it makes everything harder. I get it but Allie speaks truth. How could I ever start off as a parent doing the most selfish thing? How could I ever create 10+ children knowing they will have to run a death race to get the chance at life and likely only 1 will make it, others will be frozen and the rest will die. Anyway prayers appreciate that God will bless us w

Allie won this debate hands down!! A couple things- First of all, there are many people born of surrogacy who DO take issue with being conceived in surrogacy. It’s subjective. Some will, some won’t take issue. I would have asked him how he’d feel if his child came to him and said they DID have an issue with it. If they felt like they had a price tag over their head? What’s he gonna say, “well that sucks kid, but I wanted a child so my desires matter more.” That’s just gross. And how the child feels about it isn’t what makes it moral or not. Secondly, nobody has a RIGHT to have a child, but children DO have rights to parents. I even say they should have a right to their mother and father. He kept mentioning rights. You don’t have a right to the child in the first place. Or to a woman’s womb. I think he fundamentally doesn’t understand the argument against it. And I don’t feel like he wants to learn because he can’t see beyond his own desires. Third, one of the biggest issues I have with his argument is when he says we don’t think they deserve to be born. We are saying you can’t create them at any cost. I am 100% VERY pro life. This isn’t unaliving children already created, this is saying we cannot conceive a child with the intervention of separating them from the mother who carried them. It’s also completely wild to say like in his example that the surrogate should be able to take care of the baby for the first six months. Can you imagine taking care of a baby for six months and then handing them over to someone else? That’s completely disgusting. For mother and baby. Lastly, he says we need to measure this and see what’s best for the child. What’s best is for the child to be with the mother they’ve been bonding with for 9 months in utero. I would ask him what if we do and the study show that what’s best for the child is to be with the mother who carried them? Would he then say OK it’s unethical and agree that he should be illegal? Because I think he’s going with this false idea that at some point it’s OK for the child to be separated or for the mother to give up the child. But I guarantee if we do look at studies what’s best for the child it is be with the mother who carried them. The older they are the more they are going to understand and have separation issues. Actually, one more thing, I think it’s disgusting to treat women as if they are just expendable like I’m gonna use your womb for nine months and then rip the baby from you immediately after it’s born and you can go on your merry way and I will raise the child without you. Are we trying to erase women completely? I hear from Pro choices that women aren’t incubators, but isn’t that treating them exactly just like incubators? It’s such a double standard and I love what Allie said. It really does just come down to the desires of adults over the rights of children!!

As much as I love Clarkson I heavily disagree with surrogacy. Religious or not you are playing God. You are renting and selling a body. This might sound dark but one way to describe surrogacy is like a puppy mill...

You are a champion for babies Allie Beth. GOD BLESS YOU. Its absolutely true that we should defend children from harm.

Allie said a version of this at some point but I wholeheartedly agree with it here (this is a perfect example since they are both on same political side yet have different definitions of several things). But you’ll never be able to reach a true consensus when only one of the parties believes they are not the ultimate authority. I wish I remembered what the quote was because I can only do my best to remember it, but it is so true.

Yes. Ban it.

There are numerous adult children who talk about living with same sex parents and tell Of the deficiencies in that situation. Mothers see things fathers don’t about their children. I know young boys who live with 2 mothers and loves them but he longs for a father help. He is right that the gift of life is precious but he is saying it’s okay for same sex couples to buy a baby?

The problem in this "debate" between these two sides is that both people are coming from completely different worldviews. He thinks if he just gets his "messaging right" then others will understand and therefore, agree with him. However, she is coming from a religious, moral, Christian stance that cannot compromise on such things. There is no place for agreement between such worldviews. These are by there very natures completely incompatible. Darkness will not comprehend the light. Thus, he just isn't able, in his present position, to understand.

I’m 50/50 I agree with him . I don’t think all surrogacy is bad .

So well spoken Allie! Clarkson seems like a nice guy, he was not ready for this conversation! Go against Gods design and it creates all types of issues. It’s sad we are having this conversation. But sin has corrupted everything! People need their eyes to be opened, I pray that happens.

Great job as always, Allie! Perhaps he should read “Them Before Us” and “Love Thy Body.”

Loved the general and well reciprocated respect from both Allie and Clarkson. At the end of the day I’m still anti-surrogacy, but I thought Clarkson used some great talking points and conveyed his reasoning well. This is the kind of debate that creates meaningful conversation and thought afterwards. I hope to see him back on the show for another debate or even just an interview ❤

I'm glad he was civil. Allie made room for both to talk. The guy never really addressed how the child matters most, not the adults' wishes. Praying God brings him to his real identity in Christ. ✝️❤️

She's mopping the floor with him so far. 😬

A most excellent discussion and EQ charged. To purposely be created a human being is where ethics find conflicting views. To do this with humans is where it seems to be wrong. It is sad that when one is gay and so desperately and lovingly wants to have kids and can't. I understand their pain. But we are human beings...

He keeps talking about the gift of life, but the life that he’s talking about was not created in the normal way. Of course a child is a gift but we should not be creating them in a lab

The baby is bonded from the 9 months inside their mother's womb. Any woman who carries a baby to term is a mother no matter howbher pregnancy came to be.

Allies face at 15:58 😅 lol Thank you for this discussion.

We aren’t interchangeable and we aren’t replaceable 🙌🏽

Clarkson, I've seen you in Jubilee before and I know you're trying hard to be taken seriously, but honestly, you let her lead you on and on during the entirety of the debate. There were so many moments where I found myself answering Allie with much better rebuttals. I think you needed to assert yourself more, or better. Who cares if you agree with her talking points, don't keep showing her that you're on the same conservative wavelength. I know you're "red" but those people really don't see you as much. She said at the beginning, before even introducing you, that you're "less conservative in many issues". It's cool that you're wanting to be seen as a conservative, but your conservatism feels more political than Allie's conservatism. It feels like it is part of her, she always brings up the bible and knows exactly what it says, so she lives the conservative life, she doesn't just advocate for it. She knows her stuff. Obviously I'm not trying to say you should read the bible and memorize it, lol don't bother, just know who you're talking to. She was bringing up studies and reading them, I mean the girl was prepared. I don't think she was here to change her mind, it just felt like she was lecturing you the whole time honestly. Also gurl that sun burn is bad, you look like you're burning... xoxo

“I think…I think…I don’t think…I think…I think”. Not a valid argument, period.

This boils down to selfishness. We are not child centered but adult centered. It is not a “right” to be a parent.

His compromise is that I should embrace his lifestyle

Agree Allie! My heart goes out to the surrogate who now has to go through having the child taken away after carrying them for nine months.

Surrogacy is not just wrong, but actually evil, stemming from pride and selfishness.

We love Clarkson!!!!

While I think that Allie's complete ban is too far, His baseline argument of a cost to benefit analysis that always favors the possibility of creating life seems ridiculous. If you follow his logic to its conclusion you would assume that we should all be having sex all the time without ever using contraception because imagine all the potential lives that we are otherwise missing out on. Does he really think that every single unfertilized egg is a tragedy?

There are actually many studies proving the trauma and harm that is done to a baby when separated from their mother & no man especially a gay man could ever comprehend that or even care.

I follow Clarkson on Instagram, and I think he is very level-headed on a lot of things

I loved all your thoughts and how you handled this conversation, especially what you said at around the 48 minute mark about God, our founding fathers, where our inalienable rights come from and why God is important in the our conversations, but at the same time I do understand his frustration with Christians who have nothing to offer to the conversation but “God said” . I was watching this video while working on something, and maybe this was covered but I’m curious what his stance is on abortion, since he keeps saying how life is a gift, which it is, but the life he is talking about hasn’t even been created yet, so I’m curious if he also wants abortion to be legal?