I'm sure it's a few nice dinners, and maybe a round of golf. ; )

well I think the enemy would know how advanced they are, and wouldn't try to attack the US

This is so true. The government doesn't show their secret plans to anyone sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I hope. My faith in government has diminished as of late.

@@Damnmac1 fair, I'm with you bro.

I would like to say thank you. Your dad help make Something amazing

@@kmoss9521 That is so fucking cool

My dads best friend nephews brother in law helped too

@whatz my name blah blah blah, you know everything and everybody is wrong right?

@whatz my name yea Russia Air Fomrce technology is so ahead of us, tell me how many su 57 are currently active? Oh say what? Wow 6 whole jets Rofk

That's awesome mate, wish I could sit with you once for a cup of coffee and hear some forgotten stories :)

FF23 had contrails coming off the wings. F22 didn't. At least that's the way I remember it. I realize this means nothing.

Thank you for this

Unfortunately Technology cannot solve one big problem - get rid of the politics and make decisions based hard facts and proper military needs.

You probably knew my dad Gene Jaeger who worked on the SW his whole life until retirement.

Tom, don't you agree that just because a few suits in Washington picked option 1 instead of option 2 is hardly an excuse to just dump [until only 'moments ago'] classified Intel so openly and *ahem* freely? Lot of the date here really should have been kept quit... or... in the dark// im an enthusiast myself, but somethings just DONT, warrant, (sigh) talking about...

So did this jet have the same radar signature as the F 22?

@@cjaymckay8806 ...classified...

They said it looked like a spider on the radar and has less RCS the the yf-22,, in sure the F-22 is classified tho

Honestly! I'm surprised the F15 series of jets looked so modern in the 80s

@@artemis3829 Ya right? me too.

Just imagine the stealth bomber was made in the 60s!!!. It was classified until Johnson slipped up and said something in a press conference.

@@stevenrogersfineart4224 there a video for it?

@@stevenrogersfineart4224 I believe you're thinking of the A-12/SR-71/YF-12 aircraft.

You mean Most 6th gen "concept arts" look like the YF-23. The Actual F-3 Prototype looks like the F-22

@@michaeld1170 concept art and mockups. F-3 i believe is the only exception so far.

well the Tempest doesn't look like the YF-23, at least in my eyes, the wing actually looks like its from the F-16XL. I think you're mostly referring to the French led FCAS, which does look like it borrowed the YF-23's tail but I think it also took elements from the F-22, particularly the nose and forward fuselage.

It's the camera angle that made it look like the 6 gen planes

What the hell?! Wrong. Most 6th gen fighter concepts so far are flying wings, and look nothing like the YF-23.

Yeah the pictures were a bit strange Generally

@@buntfalke1235 lol yeah, I was like, is that a fat man abomb?

Why the hell did they de-classify? Now the Chinese will copy it and make it

@@WycliffStudios Because the US has something far superior and doesn't care if China copies it, probably.

@@Codster121 you should care. Chinese are saving up on Billions by bypassing the research and development costs

They never released the RCS of the YF-23 or its speed in supercruise which was much faster than the YF-22. The DOD was still upset over the B2 being so far over budget.

@@teddyballgame4823 Both aircraft were the best ever created but F22 was cheaper and it works. But the F23 was the best. Like do you want to pay the money for Lebron James or James Harden? Do you want good...or the best

Hawthorne Airport out of Hawthorne, CA? That's where I learned to fly.

I'm not surprised...theyll probably turn it into the 6th Gen fighter

It would almost disappoint me that the YF-23 would be the base for a 6th gen. Nothing against it, but I would almost expect an AI assisted design. There's been quite a bit of advancement in engineering since the mid 80s....

I worked on F-4s C and D versions. There were a couple of E versions on base but not my flight.

@Toora Varun It looks like they stuffed it in there so they can't get it out

You old as hell

Same here

Same here. I admire the Raptor, but the Black Widow had something about it akin to the Tomcat = character. The Raptor is quite a marvel but there was always something "cookie cutter" about it. I miss the "personality" some of our fighter jets had. The F-23 has that - of all the 5th Gen fighters. Even the F-35 isn't as "sexy". And I'm a big fan of that aircraft. Tactically though, the F-22 is no joke. I can only imagine what we DON'T know about our current and future generation of fighter jets.

It was my favorite too!

i worked on the black widow, the airforce outlawed the name

na hes like i have to copy this

@@djanmasked7131 knowing damn well that'd be true

rofl that's pretty accurate XD

Nah, he ain't be like tryna get up outta there ya know. He be all like "This be dope".

good anime waifu backstory

Now it has the power of a raptor and anime on its side!

they are getting 30 years old tech

lmao i could see that as a real iesekai short novel published by kodansha

It looks incredible watching it in replay mode. My favorite plane by far.

Except for its abysmal spw choice

Except when WIZARD FUCKING SHOWS UP WITH THEM

@@zeus28frenzy and then you turn off the console after 10 retries 😂

@@zeus28frenzy 😂😂😂

Sounds like Jetfighter 2. Originally that game didn't have the F-22, only the F-23, 14, 16 and 18. When the YF-22 was announced the ATF winner, an expansion disk for the F-22 was released. Based on my experience with Jetfighter 1 and 2, I'm going to guess that the flight characteristics of the F-22 and F-23 were very similar.

@@winternow2242 Yes!!!! It was Jetfighter 2! Man, I loved that game. And you’re right, the F-22 and the YF-23 handled the same, I just liked how the YF-23 looked. The F-14 was my absolute favorite, and as a kid, something about the YF-23 reminded me of the F-14. Thanks for jogging my memory!

@@ryelor is jet fighter 2 free?

nice

Slightly? kid i have heard some of the RCS data lol, 1.8 mach compared to the raptors 1.5 is far from slightly, and over 1.8 is classified, so it actually could of went faster. The yf-23 was able to supercruise without afterburner while still in only prototype. And it was much more stealthy, and its funny because it was bigger. The f-22 didnt hide its rear heat signature as well. The rear tails on the yf-23 a single tail is about the size of an f-35 wing alone, and they move on a huge axis, giving this almost equal manueverability to 2d vectoring. Also the yf-23 was more manueverable at higher speeds. All the f-22 is is an f-15 formate evolved to its final form, and that has come to an end. If we would of went with this program we would be so far ahead of everyone else in fighter developement. Also the yf-23 has bar non probably the best rear visibility ive ever seen on a fighter. The raptors is good but not that good, and the su-57s flat out sucks.

Couldn't the YF-23 hold a greater payload? It's just that its missiles had to be stacked. Additionally, the YF-22 was able to do a live-fire demonstration which the YF-23 couldn't

Slightly lol

@@profo4544 what dB was the return?

@@trumptookthevaccine1679 Well, i can tell you one was better broadband stealth, while the other was more of a mix of both. Northrops better broadband stealth won them the b-2 over lockheeds design. Northrop simply had a more aggressive approach in testing super cruise speeds while Lockheed was more aggressive in maneuverability. But, overall, the yf-23 was id say like. 30% better all around. Pav 2, with the ge yf120s could reach mach 2.00, reach 50 thousand feet, MAX AOA/Min airspeed 60 degrees.

What was your favorite part of the aircraft? Do you think that its genuinely superior to the F-22, and that they really picked it for business purposes? I would love to hear your thoughts! (:

@@MultiCaiser They picked the F22 because McDonnel Douglas already had several aircraft contracts with the government and they wanted to spread the wealth, so to speak. The F23 outperformed the F22 in nearly every way. The government wanted an advanced fighter, but they settled on an upscaled F/A18 and slapped the F22 nameplate on it. After MDC put billions of their own money into developing those aircraft prototypes and then lost the contract to build them, all of the employees associated with the project had to find other projects within the company. When MDC started streamlining itself for the Boeing purchase, they sought out all of the people associated with the YF-23 project, wherever they went within the company, and they laid them off. I don't remember what my favorite part was anymore. I was involved in the avionics software development. The avionics software flew in the flight simulator before there was a prototype for it to fly on. That was 1987 to 1990 or 1991.

@@hazard3483 Private company? MDC was publicly traded. YF23 wasn't my first project at the company, and it wasn't my last.

@@paulswarthout9967 nah the YF 23 could not beat the f22 raptor...even without some political influence the F22 raptor still beats the YF 23 I'm every way when it comes to agility, performance, stealth, situational awareness in real time....even though the YF 23 was technologically advanced its never as fast or as agile as the f22 raptor...the f22 raptor had been proved to be better since it was put to a test against several F15's

True story. Was just about to make that comment.

F-94C Starfire

Well who do you think designed them probably some starwars nerds

Or Macross Plus. (:

@ Cognitive dissonance in full effect, I see...

Almost everywhere. It's literally flying fuel tank.

Also the yf-22 shoot missiles, the yf-23 didn't, but overall for me, Black Widow II & Grey Ghost were the most Advance Aircraft ever created. I don't know if you ever watched this, "western museum of flight yf-23 black widow II".

I've always found it really interesting to think about how the government has secret technology decades ahead of what the public has.

@@zephirothstryfe0713 there's probably classified things that are much better

I can believe that this sort of things goes on.

So your dad's best friend never got to see the YF-23 fly. But i believe what he said. What we see today are what's the government has allowed us to see. And most of them are 40, 50 years behind the tech that we have at this present moment.

Can you share some of his collection best songs 😅 please

The Ruddervators remind me of the F-4 Stabilators just inverted.

The canted ruddervators reduced its RCS significantly. The F-22's huge vertical tails shone like big radar beacons.

@@thamwaikeong5885 So the F-22 and F-35 both suck in the aft section. I guess that's one way to keep them in the game.

@@thamwaikeong5885 You wouldn't happen to be involved with the WARTHOG DEFENSE CHANNEL would you?

Never knew this, and that's where I learned to fly. One reason to revisit my hometown.

A su-27 could probably beat an F22, maybe even a typhoon if it has the right pilot

There are multible better planets than the f22. But in different regards

A Rafale defeated an f22 it was in a training you can look for it on KZfaq and I think a typhoon did it too.

This is especially true when video is also made by you 😁

@@ivanlazarevic78 haha

Imagine the cost...of building 2 nearly redundant airplanes when we only needed one of them.

They did build both. They are hiding it in Area 51.😁

@@SuperVideoman71 And Elvis takes it for a spin every month to keep current.

@@winternow2242 lol

This should have been chosen over the yf-22. Looks more stealthy and a total looker to boot

I think the main difference came to armament load. YF-23 would be 2x or 3x more expensive per rocket/bomb.

@@MrVeryfrost Perhaps, but at the end of it, the whole point was stealth. The F-22 isn't a dog fighting specialist, it's supposed to be stealthy. If the other plane was better at those aspects why not pick it?

@@MuShinnen cost, maintenance, ease of manual of arms, gas mileage, weapons carried, and so on. A lot more goes into a military aircraft than its ability to fight or stealth

Its was actually said by Metz, who did indeed think the YF-23 was far superior, that the only reason the YF-22 won the contract was because Northrop relied solely on their engineers to sell the aircraft where Lockheed hired an entire sales team to handle the selling points of the YF-22. He said the engineers sounded exactly like you would think engineers would sound when pitching their aircraft which was the use of terms and stats that the customer does not understand vs the sails and marketing team of the YF-22 knowing exactly what to say to make their fighter sound superior.

@@moonasha I know what goes into a military aircraft, however when your main criteria is literally a specialization in one field you should be picking the option that is superior within said field. The amount of weapons the F-22 carries are not pertinent to it's main roll of stealth. The YF-23 should have been chosen based on the merits of it's performance in the role for which the planes were originally designed for in the first place.

Nicholas Jensen I just saw that right before I saw your comment

Same

well everybody aren't into weapons like us so its acceptable i guess

@@anomaly_echelon7994 well to a point, but if your making something like this for said euthastics then come on you could at least get it right. i assume without trying if you typed into google 500lb bomb you get get a picture of a 500lb bomb to use.

The video is very odd too he'll be talking about the 23 and showing a completely different plane. Theres a bit where they show a 117 and it doesn't have any relation to what they are talking about

Years since Introduction into service...here's just a few. F-18 - 38 years, F-16 - 42 years, F-15 - 45 years, and the A-10 - 44 years, B-52 - 66 years

@@mboiko yes it is just fascinating

@@timmyasem5603 I agree...hard to believe even the F-35, had its first flight 14 years ago.

@@mboiko and its not even the best

@@mboiko B-52 is one of the greatest planes ever created. As a student of history i love that in 15 years there'll be bombers whose development dates back to WW2 flying alongside f35's and any possible future planes.

YES SO WOULD ALOT OF PEOPLE

@@mljohnson2721 actually America already operates it . They just kept it for right time.

Are you sure about those dates? I'm pretty sure that both airplanes were no longer flying by then. The USAF museum got their YF-23 in 2000. The Global Security site claims that both jets were in storage until 1996, and then transferred to museums. I've seen pictures of PAV2 at the museum at Zamperini that were dated as 1997.

​@@winternow2242 woopsie, looks like I saw Ghost actually. I saw PAV2 in 2004

@@winternow2242 "In 2004, Northrop Grumman proposed a YF-23-based bomber to meet a USAF need for an interim bomber, for which the FB-22 and B-1R were also competing.[40][41] Northrop modified aircraft PAV-2 to serve as a display model for its proposed interim bomber."

Are you reely the US MILITARY DEFENCE?

Ofcourse nat

@@yeetboy1019 I bet he actually is, all of the big US departments have social media accounts.

@@yeetboy1019 maybe..... Cuz this channel has 100k+ subs so... Maybe

@@JudeSchauer ummm... DEF NOT, one look at the logo would tell u so

yep

@I didn't Wipe my ass after I poop I'm sure that's right: requests for proposals, at least three bids, etc. Which doesn't always prevent price fixing. I liked the F-23 though. Sadly I don't have enough money to buy some and donate them to Canada. :-P

4AAM with upgrades is the best SP weapon

@@rramos117 / thanks for the tip

It's great with extra missiles as special weapon

They will even try to attach 99 missiles on it. My God that would be epic.

@@rramos117 nah dawg QAAM is the way to go

Yeah me too

@@Holuunderbeere check out Macross Plus. YF-23 all the way.

По-русски пиши, а то ничего не понятно. Благодарю за уделённое время!

@@zephirothstryfe0713 thx i will

Lol man I had some best sleep in my life in that truck.

@@frank8534 lol! You sound like you work in the railroad. I'm a locomotive diesel mechanic/machinist and I get some excellent sleep at work lol

Imagine if both had of won. Like the YF-16 and YF-17 before it.

@@TheBelrick bruh the yf-17 didn't win but it got wanted by the navy i think

@@Pvt_Wade The yf17 was picked up by the navy and became the f-18.

If the YF-23 won and became the F-23 Blackwidow. We would be saying "The only plane that could beat the F-23 Blackwidow is another F-23 Blackwidow."

It probably wouldn't have taken 20 years to fix or update, either.... This is just more Corporate Welfare for the Military Industrial Complex. Wars are simply money making machines for the Rich at this point....

Even if they can build YF 23 without the original compartment it would only result in the knockoff version if you know what I mean

@@dreamspace4858 buahahahaha.... the J-20 can barely compete with the 4th gen fighter jets, underpowered Engines, No Stealth what so ever, it is a cheap copy of the F35... Cheap Chinese copy.

@HenryDavidT yaaaawn 😦

@@dreamspace4858 is that a joke?

@@briggs9187 no not really.. 2,100 kph it goes at.. and the stealth capabilities has none.. it's a fighter for a reason

Hovering on its tail would make a nice target?

@@michaelrostine8033 absolutely. And it looks dope

LMAO what an antiquated method of fighting that doesn't even exist anymore? Yea no thanks I would rather have my billions in taxpayer money actually go to effective defenses, not something to wow people at an airshow...

@@CrossWindsPat well those capabilities go hand in hand. Impressing a crowd goes together with efficiently killing the enemy like cheese & crackers.

My father was stationed at Edwards for the start and most of the trials. The day he retired, as we were heading out beyond the North Edwards gate (at the end of the Lake bed) both planes (YF22 & YF23 flying together) did a low pass over us. It was a rather nice send off after his 20 years (and my 16 years). Of course the Osprey, B2, C17, and some X planes were doing trials at the time and the shuttle landed there until the new braking system meant it could just land in Florida and skip the piggyback flyback, and of course the F117 was around, though well out of trials.

* the present

@@paddor agreed, an important correction 👍

YES THAT WILL BE SOMETHING TO BEHOLD THE UPGRADES AFTER THE YEARS OF STANDING IN THE WINGS U MITE SAY

looks like japan, is building it with the help of India, that also needs a new plane, and has some pride issiues, they want the best plane ewer built, the YF23

YES! This is where I first saw it too. I was so disappointed not to see these come out in real life. That square-er wing shape from above and the whole curvature all over is just gorgeous.

I couldn’t be arsed watch the video so which fighter that could beat f 22

По-русски пиши, а то ничего не понятно. Благодарю за уделённое время!

I never got to JF3, but thought they left the F-23 out since the F-22 had beaten the F-23 by them. I remember JetFighter 2, which had the F-23, it was released before the USAF had announced the F-22 as the winner of ATF. After the announcement, an expansion disk was released allowing you to fly the F-22 in the game. JF2 was about the last flight Simulator game that my old 286 could handle. Oddly enough, JF1, was the first game it could run in VGA.

I met Steve Smith moments before his interview about the YF-23. One additional fact I'd include, even if both planes had their engines off, the YF-23 had a MUCH smaller radar signature.

@@davidrox4591 "the YF-23 had a MUCH smaller radar signature." Actually, thanks for saying that. I actually forgot about that. Of course all the hard testing data of the RCS and with the various radars that were used is all still classified, but it matches up with what people have been able to figure out using the math and the airframe design of the YF-23. I mean, those engines and outlets are recessed in the fuselage - and engine fan blades and nozzles are notoriously bad for low radar cross section and all that is rather hidden on the YF-23. Plus, it does have more minimalistic lines and less for radar to bounce off of. From the way Donald Rumsfield talked after all this happened, it sounded like the YF-23 was heavily, heavily favored... And then when the Navy expressed interest and that meant more could be ordered (bringing the price down), the YF-22 was deemed the winner. The problem is, as soon as the YF-22 won, the Navy dropped the idea and offer like a hot potato and went on to throw billions into the A-12 with nothing to show for it. If I was a cynical man, and I sure am, I'd guess someone in the Navy probably got a new vacation home for "reasons" courtesy of Lockheed and it just so happened to line up with the YF-22 winning. ...Hey, Lockheed has done worse. Remember the F-104 Starfighter fiasco with Canada and the West German Air Force? What they did there was literally criminal. Although not nearly as many went to jail as should have...

The yf23 was less agile. The usaf make the right choice in not put "all the fruits in the stealth basket".

@@AaaBbb-ff1pn Thrust vectoring is the only reason why, which took more than a decade to get to work reliably at all. It's still considered a weak point. First flight for both planes was in 1990. F-22 didn't enter service until 2002. The F-23 could have been in mass production by the mid 90s. The vast majority of "dog fights" these days happen beyond VFR. Which means the advantage the majority of the time goes to the YF-23. If you factor in cost, the YF-23 is much more bang for the buck. The thrust vectoring engine is crack rock expensive, which is one of the chief reasons why the F-35 and F-22 cost as much as a small country.

@@davidrox4591 considering the difference of weight,distribuition of mass i still think f22 to be more agile than yf23. I'm not saying that yf23 is a bad plane,but it take some steps from the traditional fighter role. They want a dominance fighter and get everything to be sure it will be superior. Even wvr ,just in case, stealth or bvr fail. I don't see any fail in usaf judgement. Unluckily only one plane have to win and this time us navy didn't save the loser like what happened with yf17. Regarding cost: at that time there was no insight of future cost overrun between the 2 prototypes. Moreover northrop already have a bad budget's reputation among usaf due to b2 program (i won't discuss if northtrop was in fault for that it just happened)

Hey we have 6th generation jets

@@icantcomeupwithagoodusername24 only 1 in testing phase for now and i think that it will just be a drone as it keeps on being reported

@@dylanwhite3383 FA XX has begun development

@@dylanwhite3383 It's not a drone

@@kalpanaanubhav the way our current military minds want their new 6th generation fighter jets it sure sounds like it's better to have a drone getting shot down than an actual pilot who could accidentally start world war 3 by being in the wrong place at the wrong time i personally would prefer to see a manned 6th generation fighter jet but unfortunately like the f-22 raptor being a 5th generation fighter jet that hasn't provided us with good results we must instead fund the 6th generation fighter jets to be drones instead of a manned aircraft because unfortunately that's how politics work

Ahead of its time for sure!

I agree, but I think the technology developed for the YF-23 will be of great use to our allies and NASA

@@InfamoussDBZ or Japan assuming they can bring enough of the technology and the design over to make as effective

"should have" or "should've" instead of "should of". Common error.

Who’s paying for it?

@@XQTheGreat I mean its basically part of the dialect by this point. Before you say I'm wrong there are people that speak english so bad its considered its own sub language. In the land of Y'all (of which I say "you all") I stand by "should have".

One is in California (Zamperni field) the other is in Ohio (NMUSAF) (I know its beena year)

jack northrup was working on a flying wing as early as the 1920s well before the horton brothers dude

To be fair, the video author did not cover, or glossed over several pros that the YF-22 was chosen for. Such as vectored thrust, which makes a huge difference in maneuverability and defensive capability. There were also differences in the avionics package capabilities and production/maintenance/operation costs, with the YF-23 projected to be more expensive. They were both fantastic aircraft, but at $150 million+ per plane, there could be only one winner. Being a lover of all things aircraft, it is always sad to see a great plane not make it, but in the long term my wallet is happier about the choice.

@@GhostRyderID - Thank you for that extra information, good to know.

@@GhostRyderID yea plus with the decreased size of the F-22 they could store more of them on a aircraft carrier which is a major benefit

@@jackasshomey Um, the F22 isn't a navy plane. Will never see a carrier deck.

@@bradcolman7331 -.-' uhh yea it is... the plane was specifically designed with STOL Capability's for that reason ya fucking boob -.-' ok fine my bad your technically correct the F-22 isn't the one they landed on the carriers it's the YF-22... a slight variant of the F-22 converted for naval operation... but now they just use the F-35's i know...

I played on the Amiga. Big ol' YF23 Black Widow II on the front of the box. Two floppy disks.

I flew it in the simulator during its development. Seems like forever ago, now.

Dont care.. doesnt matter anymore. Germany lost. Spoils of war. Thats the rules of war.. always has been Always will be.

Its not theirs anymore.

Germany has LOST

XD

I think he meant "all but unforgettable"

I noticed that😂😂😂

Thank god I wasn't the only one to catch that.

Made me forget it already

@@mjjumps forget what?

I think the navy would have looooooooove this or the marines also

Give it time. One day the YF-23 will make a come back.

@@RC-rg3vz Aircraft like this make absolutely no sense for Navy or Marines.

I'm shocked that someone mentioned Jetfighter II haha, absolutely loved that game!

Northrup gave what the AF asked for and Lockheed gave the AF what they wanted.

I heard Air Force had issues on Northtrop. That issues makes pentagon thinking twice to choosing Northtrop as a winner.

This documentary is flat out wrong about thrust vectoring, the YF-23 HAD thrust vectoring in the only direction that mattered, in positive pitch. This allowed the YF-23 to continue maneuvering in slow speed high alpha flight.

@@michaelwalsh8379 True, negative pitch thrust vectoring isn't very helpful, pilots can't handle any more negative pitch than the normal tail surfaces provide. Although having negative pitch can slightly improve roll rate in an up/down configuration. But the huge V-tail gave the 23 extremely powerful roll. Also the control surfaces were further behind the engine, giving more leverage. The diamond wing was really a super-tapered straight wing, which means the wing didn't resist turn-in like swept wings do. The F-22 is a great plane. Best in the world. But the F-23 would have been 6th gen, in 2000, if it had been built.

@Stan Gore Lockheed Martin Corporation is an American aerospace, defense, arms, security, and advanced technologies company with worldwide interests. It was formed by the merger of Lockheed Corporation with Martin Marietta in March 1995. It is headquartered in North Bethesda, Maryland, in the Washington, D.C. Oh and by the way I was on the test team the F-22 won.

Horten Ho 229 was the first stealth aircraft ever produced but Horten brothers weren't designed the plane to be stealth

I thought it was Jack Northrop himself with the N-1M.

no it was northrup in the 1920s the horton brothers didnt start till the 30's

Wrong. Wrong.

That was rather ironic and silly. But yeah... It bugged me alot

Then again at 1:54 when the narrator says in 1980s the air force came up with the requirements for the new fighter

The US will NEVER let another country build an aircraft better than what they have at the time.

And the worst part is the the yf23 still had amazing maneuverability and would be able to dance with some of the best out there. It had higher wing loading and designed aerodynamic instabilities that kept it right up there. Sure it wont win a rate fight against an f22 but it also wouldn't be detected as soon as the f22 lol. Also another factor everyone seems to ignore about thrust vectoring is that it washes your energy away pretty quickly since the vectoring is forcing a higher AoA. So in drawn out fight if the vectoring aircraft doesn't get the shot off first, it can actually lose out to a conventional craft that can manage its energy better. (Of course that is rare and the advantages of thrust vectoring in an actual dogfight is superior 99% of the time. But you also have to think about the weight and complexity thrust vectoring now brings to the table.)