This needs to be higher up, I came here to say just this and you've already said :)

ZimM He never said they did a lousy job.

3 bytes doesn't make 0-255 Thats 8 bits variables

Nevermind i am a boffon

I weny to comments to write the same info. It is the md2 limitation.

Anton Kirilenko Really? How could “A PC game but modified to run on a console” change meaning?

He means "A console game modified to run on PC".

A very sad time we live in indeed.

Just Another KZfaq Channel , because the meaning has flipped. Well technically it's that people use the terms incorrectly because they use the terms console port and PCport interchangeably.

Robert T That’s true.

Wasn't that a 2 player only version of deathmatch on 64? Still fun as hell though :)

Q1 had 2 player only, my bad :p

Quake 3 in the 4 players, Quake 4 is 1 player

I thought something was off with that. I have a ThinkPad 380XD from 1997 that plays Quake in Software no problem. So I was suspicious to see a PC capture with a faster processor and a dedicated 3D card playing Quake II so poorly.

or guys like me that want to know about oldschool games that I believe it is sad that I missed because I started gaming with console gaming 15 years ago

You really did miss out, Quake II was the bomb. Damn, I played Q2 and Q3 for years and years Still actually have the game on my laptop too! Though I can't get the music because I don't have a CD drive any more...

I am waiting for the steam sale so I buy quake 2 and 3, and Unreal tournament just so I can at least experience those games, and also patiently wait for when Unreal tournament (the new one that epic is testing on their client) to see if it is worth it

Let me troll you around a bit with negativity. Look into MD2 file description, notice something? Look at struct md2_vertex_t. And then you tell me where the wobble comes from. Shouldn't take you more than a few seconds. It's not because of animators hand shifting the vertices - first, they they likely had rigging available, and second, they're much better at this than you'd think, e.g. by selecting vertices in groups. It's specifically the interaction of 8-bit packed coordinates and morph blending that gives it this super wobbly look - had there been no blending, the vertices snapping into new position would have largely hid the issue.

I think it's largely due to the age differential of viewers who watch your retro videos compared with the viewers who watch the other DF videos! So cringeworthy to read their comments.

Seriously?

@@AlphaZeroX96 1996 says it all quake 2 is more legend/better than all these garbage games now, far more skill based multiplayer than some dogshit game now.

R1 and L1 to move cursor UP and Down. Right analog was bad for precise aiming. Buttons were way better.

@@psdmaniac I found the analog aiming pretty decent on PS1(using a PS2 controller), if I remember right. But on PS3 backwards compatibility with PS3 controller it's simply atrocious.

I used to use the dpad back in the day and really struggle, with shoulder buttons to strafe and look and down. Now I use the right stick to look and the dpad to move. It's almost like playing a modern console shooter. Much, much better.

I wholeheartedly agree, Q2's setting, story and design are much more compelling than the original game. Also, the hub system provides a more coherent game structure as opposed to disjointed thematic levels. I'm not taking into consideration Q3 because it's totally aimed at multiplayer, and Q4 is basically a fancy reboot of Q2, so it's clear where my preference lies.

Believe me, Quake 2 is still today very very fun and much better FPS than many modern games. Great graphics, atmosphere, story, music, gameplay, physics, enemies, weapons, puzzles, blood, effects, etc, all on this game works very fine!

The worst Quake is either 4, Enemy Territory or Champions, but not 2.

Quake 3 is obviously the worst. It doesn't even have a campaign, so it's worthless 🖕🏻 The least interesting Quake game and an absolute write off. A hollow, soulless experience. Then comes Quake 4, because it's just inferior to 1 and 2. And it feels depressing, compared to Quake 1 and 2, which make you smile.

@@Amadeus_Eisenberg I wholeheartedly agree.

alucard0712 Sonic Mayhem did a great soundtrack for this game.

Artorias didn't Sonic Mayhem do one of the Quake 3 soundtracks?

I always prefer Aubrey Hodges' moodier, more ambient scores for Doom and Quake I & II.

@@kdkseven I also like N64 soundtrack more for Quake 2, it gives some dystopian cyberpunk vibes wich fits strogg theme. Also it sounds a bit alike NIN's Quake 1 soundtrack.

Engine does not matters, it's completely not Q2, just it. Now i also want to take a look at it. Completely different levels - #1

Pretty interesting that it's Quake 2 on the Quake 1 engine with new levels. Reminds me of Duke Nukem and Quake 1 on the Powerslave engine.

But that's isnt Quake1 either. By the engine. Q1@N64 uses own engine, even when really closer by levels compared to Q2 that offers completely different levels.

Didn't know Quake 1 on N64 wasn't the Quake engine, always figured it was a slightly modified Quake 1 engine.

Quake 64 Engine, not id Tech 1. id Tech 1 Q2 would probably be a disaster, but the N64 version looks like a complete sidegrade (awkward controller notwithstanding).

BTW, it was a long time... Rippling of polygons was ALWAYS in PS1 GTE(aka PS1 polygon jitter) and in 99% of PS1 3D games.

John Freeman you're thinking of the warping polygon problem that the PlayStation had.

The MD2 mesh format used by Quake 2 also compresses vertex data to decrease file sizes and memory usage. The vertices are stored with a single 8-bit signed byte per coordinate, meaning there are only 256 possible positions for a vertex per axis within the mesh's bounding box. That's a fairly low resolution and causes the vertices to visibly "snap" between positions. Combined with animation interpolation, that creates the wavy ripply look. On the PS1 it's different. Polygon data is sent from the CPU to the GPU in pixel coordinates, without any depth information. The GPU basically only knows how to draw textured 2D triangles on exact screen pixel positions; the CPU has to do all the maths to transform 3D polygons to 2D screen triangles and sends that data to the GPU. The result of this is that vertices will snap from one screen pixel to the next (causing the jittery polygons), and the GPU does not have the required depth information to do proper perspective correct texture mapping (causing the texture warping effect).

decayedmatter interestingly enough the quake 3 engine still animates in the same manner but the raw increase in polygon count makes the effect far less noticible.

Quake 3 also uses 16-bit signed integers to store its vertex data, which is a lot more precise than what Quake 2 had.

Ray Tracing is a gimmick

I completely agree with you there buddy playing Quake II on Playstation was a mindblowing game for the time and I still remember the Playstation port of Doom and Doom II (Final Doom) which absolutely loved and adored. It really is remarkable how these games thrived by a passionate modding community that really keep these games at the front and center of how a game should be.

Wogle Same here. I didn't get into PC gaming til 2001, and since I didn't get a PS1 til a couple of years into its life, I missed the Doom console conversions. Quake2 was my first Id FPS and it felt glorious. That super shotgun is just a thing of beauty. Quake2 was a game I strangely have memories of playing with different groups of people which I don't have with other games of the time. My cousin on his PS1 around 99, then when in college I had a copy of the installation folder on a CD which I passed around, allowing us to death match in practical/lab classes. In the preonline gaming world of dialup internet that was a huge thing! Then playing a modded version of it with a buddy on a LAN. It is one of those milestone games.

half life was not bad either

Quake 1 is more exciting

The opposite for me, hehe. My first experience of Quake 2 was on PC. But I fell in love with the PS1 version and got that.

I love those cheesy old magazines. Ha ha

GTX 1080 DESTROYS Scorpio!!

Uh .. okay. Cool.

I know what i did about it. I played the fuck out of it until i beat it. Then i went back for more. Kinda sad i never got to play the MP but our family didn't have good internet at the time so i didn't get the chance. Oh well, such is life in the zone!

that's what i thought too. my voodoo2 ran that at 90fps 800x600, no way a voodoo 1 couldn't at least do 30fps 512x384

With the 350 should run a lot better, the voodoos scaled up with the cpu like crazy. When I swapped from my 233mmx to a P3-500, Quake3 went from "meh" performance to 90fps timedemo (same lowest settings, ofc). There's even videos of people running NFS:U in Sli voodoo2s.

I think the same. it runs fine on a pentium 133 with a 4mb diamond monster (voodoo 1 chip), it never gets that slow and choppy. a pentium 2 350 should get at least 40fps minimum all the time and it should reach 60 in some places.

GraveUypo I’ve heard some people in other comments say that one of the final builds of Quake II changed the rendering from MiniGL to Full OpenGL, effectively reducing compatibility and efficiency with old Voodoo 3DFX cards, but making the game far more effective on more modern graphics cards. So it’s likely that the footage was filmed using the latest version of Quake II because the latest version normally had the least bugs, which makes it far slower for a Voodoo 3DFX card as it has to run a far more complicated renderer designed for a modern graphics cards, which while being superior and allowing more features, the Voodoo card cannot use any of these new features meaning it just lags it.

@@pelgervampireduck the P133 definitely was too slow. i had an overclocked one back then with a Voodoo2 12mb and Q2 was basically unplayable.

it's probably a shitty modern driver. you had to use specific minidrivers for each game. that should actually be running at ~35fps in 512x384, not 15 fps 320x240

I have the 360 version

Exactly! I blame consoles. Mainly the X360 and PS3 and later Xone and PS4. Two console generations in a row pure shit. This wouldn't be a problem if developers made still games for PC and then ported them to consoles in the best way the see fit.

It's all because of the weak consoles that are holding the gaming industry back, if PC gaming was leading the industry and not consoles, we would've had games like that Watch Dogs E3 2012 Demo in 2014 and that Division E3 2013 that said that it was running on a regular PS4 by Digital Foundry (Bullshit), we would've had these graphics in 2013 or 2014. Did you see what Nvidia showed 3 days ago? They showed a tech demo on a VOLTA GPU, and that GPU is coming in early 2018 (maybe It'll be called GTX 1180), they showed a CGI scene from FFXV's KIngsglaive CGI movie running in real time on a potential consumer level VOLTA GPU, that shit was FUCKING IMPRESSIVE!! But hey, It's not just consoles that hold back the industry, It's that most people EVEN on the PC side don't have those highend GFX cards like GTX 1070 or 1080, or even a GTX 1060, most of them have lower I guess. And to make it even more F'd up, is the industry's move to 4K gaming, that's using almost all of High-end GPU powers up, even with the GTX 1080 Ti, couldn't handle all games at 4K/60fps MAX, It dipped in games like Rise of the Tomb Raider and The Witcher 3, sooo.....it's not just consoles, It's more than that. Maybe 2019 or 2020, when the PS5/XB2 launch we'll get a BIG graphical jump, a BIG LEAP, hopefully devs will start utilizing the new graphical features that can't be done on consoles today like SVOGI and others.

It was the golden age in multiplayer online gaming. I remember there was a site called MSN gaming where it was a precursor to steam. It had lobby system, chat system, and community section. We were able to match up and all we needed was one click of the button to play together. Looking back, it's amazing that we even had this system in place already.

on the bright side pc gaming is in a renaissance of sorts compared to the dark days of the 360 and ps3. Star citizen will be a graphical powerhouse

I don't know man, even with my i7, 16 GB DDR4, and a $240 card, the GTX 1060 6GB I can't max out all these high end games at 1080p with maximum settings at 60 fps consistently. The GTX 1070 at $380 can just about do it but even then it can run into some resistance. How demanding and advanced do you want these games to be? The Scorpio, AMD Vega, and Nvidia Volta might shake things up a bit. I know some people out there have unlimited funds and the GTX 1080 Ti but most of us don't. A developer is welcome to develop a PC exclusive game that is highly demanding. Nothing is stopping them. Like with Quake Champions. I just wonder how many of us have the hardware for it.

RevolverRez Yes! Haven't thought about that in 20 yrs! The enemies in Q2 were really iconic, which being an Id game, is no surprise. The Iron maidens sigh is another!

Maxim Reality He probably used the most recent version which swapped MiniGL for Full OpenGL (was meant for the latest NVIDIA cards and the ATI Rage 3D series)

Blank Blank OOF

I dont see how they say the OpenGL version looks better than the software render. 2:50 - its spectacular for its time, the OpenGL is so blury - how is it better?

Yeah. DF totaly fucked up this review. Q2 works MUCH faster.

@@brentgreeff1115 It's true, software looks amazing, especially in quake 1 How does anything look better in openGL

Thanks for the extra info! Unfortunately, with less than 3 days total to work on the video, I definitely couldn't include all of the detailed I had wanted. Some of that stuff I had completely forgotten even (the wicked3d thing, for instance). At the time of Quake 2's release, though, I do still feel like the Voodoo was on top. One reason being Glide, of course, which was still heavily in use but even in terms of raw performance, the competition was not great at the time. Which other cards did you feel were competing? The Rage Pro from ATI was slower than Voodoo 1 in Quake 2. I owned a PowerVR PCX2 when Q2 launched and it was much slower than a Voodoo. The Nvidia Riva TNT wasn't out until mid-1998, I believe - they didn't really have a great competing card before that, right? The Riva 128 maybe? You're right, though, the Voodoo 2 was just one month later - though I didn't get one until fall 1998, unfortunately. The difference in performance there was dramatic.

you were a Voodoo guy too? same here Man! Me and My Dad (it was His Rig) had the Orchid Righteous version of the Voodoo 1 first, then we upgraded to the Diamond3D Monster 2 Voodoo 2 Banshee what that launched because Q2 was, indeed, running like Crap on the Voodoo 1 as the Idtech2 Engine was simply too much for It so we were having to run on the CPU to get better Performance before we got the Voodoo 2 Banshee, then I got 3DFX's own version of the Voodoo 3 Banshee in late 1998, then, as well all know, Tragically 3DFX just dropped the ball on the Voodoo 4 and 5, far too high priced, with build quality issues, and with technology far too complex for Machines of the Time, resulting in Performance issues that were not present on the Cheaper ATi and NVidia units, and 3DFX sadly ended up going defunct, I still Miss them in fact..so I bounced back and forth between ATi and NVidia for a while, before finally settling on a Lineage of NVidia's after the original CUDA Enabled GTX 200 Line's launched, as I was just getting too many issues on ATi with bad build quality, poor drivers, and terrible Performance. I still consider Myself a Voodoo Fanboi to this Day however. 3DFX4Life! and it amazes Me just how much 3DFX tech NVidia still uses. I mean, what is GameWorks if technically not a Modern Take on the idea behind Glide? albeit its nowhere near as good as GLide (thank heavens for GOG packing NGlide into their Re-Releases of old 3DFX Enabled Games!) and of course, Dual Card SLi was another 3DFX invention NVidia took on board! So at least they still left an incredible Legacy, which is more than I can say for Matrox or Power PC. Hmm, that's an idea for the next DFRetro! the first Three *Iconic* Voodoo Cards!

The best example is the Riva 128 (edited to remove ZX, ZX came out just after Q2) which was faster than the Voodoo Graphics and competed somewhat even with the Voodoo2 despite lacking the ability to do single-pass multitexturing like the V2 and the TNT (which stood for TwiN Texel, referring to its dual texturing engines). However, it had severe image quality issues, which was a specter that plagued Nvidia until the GeForce 3. (I remember some hardware sites recommending the Radeon 64 DDR over the GeForce 256 because even though it was slower in 16-bit color, it was faster in 32-bit and had overall better texture filtering quality.) The ATI Rage Pro cards were faster than the Voodoo Graphics after the major driver upgrade that caused ATI to re-brand them as the "Rage Pro Turbo". They, like the Riva 128ZX, got there through some image quality compromises (in particular the Rage Pro didn't support hardware alpha blending), but the large RAM (8MB) on those cards compared to their competitors allowed them to make use of higher texture quality settings. Of course, the Pro Turbo update came after the Voodoo 2, if I recall correctly, so I guess that's not really much of an argument. It was surely a trade-off, but lots of those kinds of trade offs had to happen in those days. You remember of course that it was in this time when PC gamers became tweakers and modders as we tried to make games run better on our inadequate and buggy hardware. I remember keeping a library of different versions of atiogl32.dll files and manually switching out OpenGL drivers for various games, hehe. As far as other chips, well, Rendition's Verité V2200 chip competed favorably with the Voodoo Rush (fair comparison since it was 2D/3D capable like the Rush.) However it was surely slower than the Voodoo Graphics, but again it had 8MB version where the Voodoo Graphics had 4MB with hard split of 2MB framebuffer and 2MB texture. Ultimately I think at Quake II's launch the best option was the PowerVR PCX2 as found in the Videologic Apocalypse 3dx and Matrox M3D. Very few games supported it but both Quake and Unreal did (Unreal even used the SGL native API instead of a miniGL, much like it used Glide instead of 3dfx's miniGL). Quake II can even run in 1024x768 on the PCX2, something which required a pair of Voodoo 2s to accomplish (although the SLI Voodoo2s surely gave a better frame rate! It would be interesting to test these two cards against each other.

I missed out on the RIVA 128, as I said, I didn't start flipping between ATi and NVidia until around 2001 after 3DFX went under. so, around about the Geforce 2 era IIRC (sorry, My Memory isn't all that good at times as new GPU Generations were coming out 3 Per Month back then!), as I said, I was running a V1, then a V2B back in those Days. I think I may actually still *have* the V2B lying around in the attic actually, hmm, I might be able to build a retro-rig if I can get it to come back to life... So *That's* what TNT stood for! thanks Man, I have *always* wondered about that, I thought it was just a Marketing Gimmick, suggesting "Explosive" Performance. Yup, its amazing to think, when you look at the Dominance they have now, that NVidia used to be the *worst* of the GPU Products, with Severe Image Quality issues and laughably outdated hardware, now its AMD/ATi with those issues, yet back then ATi had the better Hardware, albeit it also got stomped on by 3DFX. Not just sites, the proper Physical Magazines were still around back then (PC Gamer was the one I collected, especially after the one bundled with the Disk with the "Uplink" Demo for Half Life! as well as Demo's for Klingon Honour Guard, the Original Unreal, and SiN) and indeed, they also recommended the Radeon 64 DDR over the Geforce 256 as it was much faster Card and with less image quality issues, its, just sadly, it had "typical" ATi Build Quality (IE Trash, at least IMO) and suffered a Terminal short circuit on the Nucleus Soldering after only 3 Months. Indeed, ATI/AMD still seem to have that issue now, they bring out a GPU, 3 generations late, that will Stomp all over NVidia's Product, and bring out a killer Driver.... and then NVidia just launches its Next Hardware Architecture evolution and Whack, AMD is 3 Generations behind Again, same as what happened after 3DFX launched the V2B. The V-RAM situation is also the same today, with the RX580 able to Theoretically run at Higher Resolution due to 8GB of V-RAM compared to the 6GB of its closest rival, the GTX 1060, but with performance so bad (not surprising seeing as the RX580 struggles to do 60FPS at 1080P in a lot of Games) it just isn't worth cranking the Resolution up, all because of the Slow Clock, poor IPC and shockingly outdated Hardware Architecture. Yup, the PC Golden Age was all about Trade offs, in a way it still is even now, did you go for 640X480 and get terrible frame rates, or did you go for a locked 60 and back down to 460X280 and a window? did you go for the less V-Ram and thus lower settings but Storming Performance of the Voodoo units? (and Glide!) or the Higher V-RAM of ATi but get worse Performance and build Quality issues. its still the same now! 1440P 60+ or 4K Sub 60? GTX 1060 or RX580 (AMD doesn't have anything that can compete with the 1070 or above yet, and sadly, by the Time VEGA launches, NVidia will have moved on to Volta so it probably still wont be able to Compete) when you think about it, Very little has actually changed on the PC! We still have to be Tweakers and Modders even now due to a worryingly large Number of Todays "Developers" being ,IMO, either Lazy or Downright Incompetent and only really bothering to code the Games for the much easier to Develop on Console Systems, and just treating PC as an Extra Buck, meaning we basically need to Recode the Bloody Games from the Ground up just to get them Running Properly. Sadly, I was quite young back then, around 11/12 in 1998, so all those Different Files and Drivers just confused the hell out of Me, so I just Brute Forced the Games, My Dad got good at Tweaking however and indeed, had whole External Back up Tapes full of Drivers and DLL's to get the best out of the Games, and He eventually taught Me his tricks when PC started going under around 2006/7 and the "Bad Console Port" Started becoming very frequent and even the most Powerful PC Hardware needed a lot of Tweaking to even get Console Level, let alone Proper PC Level, Performance out of the Games and being a Tweaker essentially became Mandatory to keep on Gaming on the PC. I don't Remember the Rendition Verite cards, I don't think they were sold in the UK actually. Yup, Split V-RAM, odd isn't it how it was perfectly acceptable on the Voodoo Rush, yet caused foam Mouthed *Fury* When NVidia resurrected the Idea on the GTX970. that is one thing that has changed on PC IMO, the audience is a hell of a lot *Less* Mature and Intelligent that I was in the Golden Age. Agreed, in a way, Quake 2 was the Crysis of its time, built around a GPU from one Generation ahead, so when it launched, there wasn't really a GPU that could run it Properly, so you just had to go for the best "Bodge" and that was the PowerVR, however, Me and My Dad already knew the Voodoo 2 (and its overclocked "Banshee" Big Brother) were coming from an Article on them in UK PC Gamer Magazine and decided to just run Q2 on the CPU as it would be waste to get a PowerVR PCX2 just for one Month! I Remember the old Matrox Mystique's! I never had one, but a friend of Mine did! Indeed, I remember the Fierce "war" Between Matrox and 3DFX Fans, it really was the PC Gamer equivalent of PS1 Vs N64, and every bit as Hotly Contested, it would be awesome to see a top of the Range Mystique battling against SLi V2B's at that Resolution.. The fact the Game could Run at that Resolution on Matrox also shows just how Long "HD" has been available on PC! since 1998! and to think, the Consoles are still struggling to reach 720P on some Games (Quantum Break's Dynamic Resolution can drop the Game as low as 640X480!) it just shows how far ahead PC was even back then, nearly 20 years ahead!

well the Riva 128 (even nvidia tries to forget it) was nice .... as long as the memory held up. I remember a friend who bought it while I had a Voodoo 1 in my PC. He had problems in Q2 because the memory was full after a while and the driver did not release the memory. It looked really really terrible. The V1 on the other hand worked flawlessly with its glide support.

Sam S. it would just look like a doom knockoff

zarif No; it wouldn't. They're entirely different games. I'm tired of Quake's focus on multiplayer lately. DOOM got a great new single player treatment. It's time to Quake to return.

Sam S. if people can compare overwatch to Quake. They sure as hell can compare it to doom

zarif That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and your argument is completely invalid. Overwatch is for casual losers who can't play shooters.

Sam S. casual losers who can't play shooters?and you like your own comment?yeah,i'm not interested in starting a conversation woth you

Kaffeebohnson The best setup for the controls was to use Dpad for movement and right stick for aiming. It was not ideal, and its sort of baffling how they introduced a couple of different alternate control schemes but didnt even out of curiosity include a proper dual stick controls. Had to buy a new PS1 controller when I played it through, because my Dpad was too stiff, though.

Well it would turn out that all that praising for Quake 2 graphics engine didn't really mean anything. Unreal 1 was released only few months after Q2 and it literally wiped floor with it. With U1 hitting the market we've realised just how obsolete Q2 engine was even in the day of its release.

Kacper Baszczyk Q2 just has the color lighting and the Voodoo. It was more of a showcase

Elena Skyline pc version is best

Ps1 is the superior system overall. No ram contention issues bottlenecking cpu performance, cd's allow higher quality textures and music, better controller etc

Software Mode > GL Mode

he ran it on highest supported res, most ppl ran at much lower res and windowed mode on top of that(and lower settings too ;)

Imgema you ran it below 640x480

MrFireFist yes but back then i played it in gl mode. It wasnt even my system.

Chances are extremely high that your memory is foggy.

It's homebrew also. I still cant understand why he's included homebrew and bleemcast in this video... bleemcast+PS1Q2 -> what the fuck... just any PS1 emu on PC doing the same much better.

That homebrew for the OG xbox was excellent it supported even 1080i and 720p and you could play online.

It was also ILLEGAL because, like nearly every homebrew OG Xbox project, it was compile with a stolen Xbox developing tool.

I had forgotten about that! Cool stuff.

its homebrew - i know, i ported it

Yes, without new textures Q2 looks in GL mode like shit today, blur ,blur everywhere! Better to take a look on software render mentioned above with colored lightning.

If you piss red, see a doctor.

Opinions. Software mode lacks all the lighting and has Minecraft style blocky textures. It runs considerably slower too since it's all CPU. I'd like to use some aniso filtering with xBRZ these days personally.

Yeah, you just gave me great idea how to play without blur,but with aniso,etc and mipmap. gl_texturemode GL_NEAREST_MIPMAP_LINEAR

I would take the gl mode but without texture filtering, thats what i usally do in quake 2 source ports