😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

@@EllieDashwood This was another thing I liked about the 2005 version. When I watched it, I hadn't tried to read Jane Austin for about 20 years, and her short dialogue here was a nice, concise description of her situation. In fact, it was hints like that that got me to actually reading "Pride and Prejudice" (and thus falling down the JA rabbit hole:) ).

That line and whole scene kind of drives me crazy, not gonna lie lol. I do enjoy pride and prejudice 2005, for what it is, a very cinematic, more concise version of the story, with great cinematography and a great film score. One thing I really don’t like though is the mis characterization of Charlotte Lucas. I find it really interesting that book Charlotte is so different then Lizzie in her views towards marriage, and makes her choice to marry Collins in a completely pragmatic way. I get 2005 probably just put that scene in to show people who aren’t familiar with the time period, that you had so many fewer choices as a woman back then, especially the older you got, I just really wish they would not have used Charlotte Lucas to do it.

@@jessica_jam4386 yup. I was one of those people. I don’t think 2005 Charlotte is the same as the character in the book, she doesn’t seem as “world-weary”

@@iamweaver2 I believe Emma Thompson wrote some of the dialogue and this was one of the scenes she wrote.

In the movie at least she seemed to be managing really well the fact that she was married to him. And agreed, I don't think he was supposed to be creepy, just awkward

@@SMoya-bc6tw she would 100% be The Boss at home hauhauahua

@@JacquelineViana right?? When she just left him talking alone once he started his tirade about Lady Catherine without being afraid or worried I knew she'd be okay

I sort of agree but eek 😬 having to be his wife forever lol

They also usually portray him as older which makes him seem weirder. He was actually 25 so you could maybe see him as more inexperienced and socially awkward.

Charlotte is pregnant at the end of the book, and so she will have a child or children to love.

Plus, life as a wealth, respected dowager of a huge estate once Collins dies is like, the period dream. You get to be the matriarch, and live in luxury and no one’s allowed to say shit to you lol

Agreed!

Mr Collins was probably the best she could hope for. A home, social standing and moderate wealth would ensure she’d be comfortable for life. And maybe a couple of kids one day. Not too shabby.

Of course she made the right choice, suitors were not banging her door down and she knew she could make a far far worse match if one did come knocking.

Yes, I got that impression too. Also, he’s a very busy man and won’t be bothering her for most of the time. Good choice.

Charlotte was a pragmatic woman. At the advanced age of 27, when she feels like she’s on the shelf and a burden to her parents, a last ditch opportunity to secure a husband falls into her lap. Why shouldn’t she have accepted her friend’s cast-off? A love match in the Regency period was the exception, not the rule. Charlotte knows her chosen husband has flaws, But she has her eyes on the prize: her own household, financial freedom from her parents, respected standing as the wife of a minister and 7:13 the chance to become a mother. The very qualities which so irritate Lizzie Bennett don’t bother Charlotte so much because she goes into the union with her eyes wide open about the deal she’s making. She does not expect to love her husband, but she focuses her energies on being a good wife and making him a good home. She tells Lizzie the ways in which she maintains domestic harmony and manages Mr. Collins, by keeping him busy and making sure that she has her own space to retreat to. I like to imagine that under the ministrations of his wife, Collins actually blossoms and becomes a better person. In the ideal scenario of an arranged match, the partners start out as civil strangers and through a shared life experience come to understand and love each other over time. Feeling follows action, so by acting loving toward each other eventually feelings follow suit. Couples that start out their lives together in emotional infatuation often find that the grind of daily domesticity kills the romance. Maybe romance has a better chance of survival if it is born after the wedding and even several years into the marriage. What is most important is not emotional highs but a shared commitment from both parties that they are a team with the same goal. Collins provides Charlotte with security and status and for her part, she takes care of him and demonstrates qualities of character whic may rub off on him and help him to be a better man. Collins has some flaws of character but not huge ones… He’s pompous, materialistic, overly concerned with his social status for a minister of the Lord, and seems to have an obnoxiously high opinion of himself. But He is not evil so much as a buffoon. I think he is a buffoon for whom there is hope of personal growth because he is with a no nonsense woman who accepts him as he is.

@@marywenzel3199 You give a wonderful analysis of Charlotte's situation. I think Charlotte was probably capable of slowing transforming Mr. Collins into someone more to her liking.

@@tammyclay62 Collins is a triumph of satire and one of the most memorable clowns of literature. Jane Austen loved to skewer “the pompous minister”-Emma’s Mr. Elton is another one-but she really went to town on Collins. As the daughter of a minister she was familiar with the type, and was delightfully savage in creating Mr. Collins. He is a devastating portrait of Jane’s opinion of her father’s profession, albeit done with humor. Mr. Collins is a plum role for an actor and all the ones I’ve seen relish the opportunity to sink their teeth into him. He’s such a buffoon and so devoid of self-awareness he’s easy to think of as a villain. After all he has the power to take away the Bennett women’s home and security unless one of them sucks up to him. But this isn’t his fault; just the situation that society has forced upon them all. We love to hate on Mr. Collins and he tends to steal his scenes- That first dinner at Longbourne is a doozy of comedic tone deafness. The key to Mr. Collins though is that under the aggravating personality and skewed priorities, he’s just as much a victim of his rigid social code as the Bennett girls are. He’s got the distinct advantage of being a male, but he is likely the third or fourth son of his family who was forced into the Church not as a calling but because there was the expected path for a penurious third son. His obsession with status and ego is probably a response to not feeling very loved or lovable throughout his life. Let’s face it- Mr. Collins is nothing to look at and his personality makes him intolerable to other people. This is a guy who didn’t have any friends at school and continues to be a loser in grown-up society. Toadying up to Lady Catherine de Burgh is the only way this man of advancing years can gain any security given his social handicaps. I always wondered why Jane Austen didn’t have Mr. Collins wind up with Mary Bennett. I think she could’ve tolerated him well enough- Mary is sort of the Collins within her own family- But she can’t be more than 17 and Charlotte is more age-appropriate match. David Bamber in the 1995 version is hilariously repulsive but I came to actually find Mr. Collins sympathetic as played by Tom Hollander in the 2005 version. Tom has made a specialty of pompous official types but at first I thought he was miscast. He was too nice looking and played Collins as at worst only mildly irritating. But he shed a new light on Collins for me when he becomes touchingly attached to his new wife immediately. Mr. Collins needed a woman’s touch in his life and now that he’s locked down a wife he is going to be devoted to her. Charlotte gives him status in the eyes of his patron, but I also believe that he will treat her like a Queen because she chose him. Lizzie couldn’t have borne A life of domesticity with Mr. Collins, but Charlotte is a much more tolerant person. She could’ve done far worse for a husband and I think she will in her quiet way be successful at training Mr. Collins.

@@tammyclay62 I have a couple more Collinses to recommend to you. “Bride & Prejudice” is a Bollywood musical version of our story (in English) Starring the stunning Ashwariya Rai as Lizzie. The Darcy is Kevin Costner lite pretty boy Martin Henderson, but you will marvel at how Austen’s cast of characters all have Indian counterparts. “Mr. Kohli” is reliably scene stealing as an obnoxious tech nouveau riche from California who comes home to the Punjab to score a “real” Indian wife. In Lost in Austen (2008) a 21st century bank employee from London finds Lizzie Bennet in her bathroom having entered our dimension via a wormhole in Amanda’s shower. Suddenly Amanda finds herself in Longbourne at the start of events and introduces the startled family as Lizzie’s friend from Hammersmith who is doing a home swap. Mr and Mrs Bennet are very confused why their daughter left without a word to them or how she came to be friends with this uncouth person who is dressed like a woman for hire for you know what. Hospitality demands they put her up and find her some decent clothes. All the male characters-Mr Bingley, Collins, Darcy and Wickham all start vying for Amanda since they never meet Lizzie. With Bingley unavailable Jane is forced to accept Mr Collins to save Longbourne and a despondent Charlotte goes off to be a spinster missionary in Africa where she expects to die of a fever. Amanda is forced to admit to Darcy that she gave up her virtue years ago oh dear. She tries to get Lizzie to come back to the 18th century. Lizzie has discovered electricity, the Internet and jeans and pixie haircuts and doesn’t want to leave 2008. Not even for Mr Darcy.. 😁 The Collins is super gross…and it turns out he’s got a bunch of equally off putting younger brothers.

The Lizzie Bennet Diaries did this and in that version, I kind of agreed with Charlotte

Yes, this is always how I look at marriages in older cultures: it was your career, especially as a woman. So, in judging whether the marriage was happy/a good idea or not, I ask myself, So, would you be able to deal with these marital irritants in a job and still love your career, with this person as a colleague? The answer is nearly always yes, and when it isn't, it's clear it wasn't considered a good marriage back then either. I wouldn't mind bringing back 'marriage as a career choice' myself - as would several of my students, in fact!

This is my take too - Lizzie can hold out for her dream job, Charlotte just needs A Job. Charlotte isn’t settling like a woman in 2022 who has her own bank account, she’s settling more like someone who has to go to her safety school or who accepts that she’ll be a bank teller forever because the benefits are good and she gets holidays off.

I think Charlotte is partially correct. After the honeymoon is over, people tend to show their true selves. Lucky for us in our modern world that we can live with our intended and see their many facets before marriage.

I hear the point of likening a marriage to a career choice, but while you could need to tolerate many crummy things about a boss in a job you can’t lose, you wouldn’t be having a…certain kind of intercourse with your boss, or children with them as a result. That’s a huge reason why less-than-good marriages are not like less-than-good careers. Granted, the situation for women in Regency England didn’t really have good alternatives to marriage (by design of those who benefitted from that being women’s general situation, of course). But in our modern day, it is important to keep *all* of the context as we consider these things.

Charlotte was definitely more intelligent than Collins. As someone said, she would be able to manage him.

I also think she just married the first person who asked. It’s clear if she had ever been asked before, she’d be a married character in the book.

Marriage to Mr Collins gives her a position in society and eventually she will be mistress of Longbourne. Is not romantic love but respect and an acknowledgement that there is a lack of men - the napoleonic wars are or have been happening, there is not much choice.

@@kathrynabbott5032 she has no respect for him though. It's purely material to secure her lifestyle and social standing

@@Hungarycloud As a person, or as a member of society? I think it's accurate to say she has no respect for him as a person, but she does have respect for his position and standing in society.

and Miss Lucas, who accepted him solely from the pure and disinterested desire of an establishment, cared not how soon that establishment were gained.

She set her cap at him !!

Yes, here was a youngish man arrived in her neighbourhood, respectable profession, moderately wealthy, with expectations of much more in the future, well connected and looking for a wife … she knew the Bennett girls would reject any offers he might make as they were younger and more hopeful of more attractive offers to come. I agree. She realised she could bag him and ensured she did!

True. That doesn't mean it's the right choice necessarily but I think in this case it likely was

Charlotte made the professional choice. Bless her.

How do we know he wouldn’t have been cruel, disrespectful or abusive? We don’t really know that. And that’s part of Charlotte’s points earlier too, that you don’t really need to know a person and they’ll change after you marry them. I generally feel they’ll be okay, but I think we also don’t know enough about his relations with women or anything else. He has a narrow mind and some insensitivity at least, which may manifest as cruelty or disregard at some point. Lizzie learns more about Darcy over time, how he treats friends, his sister, employees, and this gives her insight and a fuller view of his character, allowing her to say yes later to the 2nd proposal. Charlotte quickly moved to marry a man she hardly knew and most know little about. Which was her point anyway about marriage.

@@p_nk7279 well we don't know but she would have had a good idea. From the second Mr Collins arrived everyone would have been observing him, asking relations who lived in his area about him, hearing servant's talk, etc. The "gossip" mill was their google. There was a societal interest in making sure people knew each other's business and preventing bad matches. Part of the reason Darcy feels so guilty was that he didn't do the right thing and let people know that Wickham was not a man to be trusted. And Charlotte showed herself to have a decent assessment of characters so I think she knows better than we would think

Great comment 👌

Oh wow, you really thought this through (almost like Charlotte herself would, I can immagine). Great comment! Thank you.

Annie; agree with your so perceptive and well thought-out comment. I was thinking that it wouldn't be very hard to have a better marriage than either of the ones you mentioned, especially Lydia and Wickham.

Well said.

In the context of the novel, yes, Charlotte probably made the right choice. The author explores different attitudes toward the question of marrying for love and, as Ellie said, presents a foil to Elizabeth. We see two women with two opinions. Elizabeth thinks you need to marry someone whom you love, Charlotte is content with the material benefits of marrying Mr. Collins. This could be seen as two opposing yet equally valid opinions and attitudes. For me, the most important point is that Charlotte - like Elizabeth - seems to have made her own choice based on her values (whether internal or received), and not been coerced into it. At least there is not textual evidence that her mother had threatened never to see her again if she refused to do so (unlike someone's mom ;) ). That said, I would point out a few things. Firstly, regarding her choice of specifically Mr. Collins. Maybe he was "good enough" for Charlotte under the circumstances (though as Ellie pointed out, she makes it clear that she doesn't have a particular liking of him). Some people have pointed out that he is, supposedly, not such a horrid character at the end of the day. OTOH, I personally can't find anything positive to say about Mr. Collins. Let's see: he is a pompous ass licker; although his vocation is in the church, his piety seems to be limited to reading Fordyce's preachy sermons for women to his cousins; it certainly doesn't cross his mind to show Christian charity by renouncing the entailment of Longbourn in favor of his cousins who need its inheritance more than he does. Instead, in practical need of a wife, he proposes to Elizabeth after no courtship to speak of, narcissistically assumes she will accept, refuses to believe that her rejection is genuine (even underscoring to her that she is in no position to reject him due to her small inheritance), and when she insists that she doesn't want to accept his offer, he tells her straight out that he expects that she will change her mind "when" pressed to do so by her parents. Later, when Lydia elopes, Mr. Collins writes Mr. Bennet advice to shun his daughter in order to save face. There's that ol' Christian charity again. People...does this guy have ANY redeeming qualities at all? To me he seems a borderline parasite. Apart from his comfortable means, is there any positive trait of character he can give his wife? I do believe that Charlotte knew what she was doing, and that in marrying this yahoo (albeit well-placed yahoo), she was making the most of the limited options available to her as a woman in a relatively very patriarchal society. That said, I would surmise that I am very happy that she was able to effectively manipulate Mr. Collins and find ways of keeping him out of her hair. She basically acceeded to a marriage of convenience, and I hope between the two of them, they found a mutually acceptable modus vivendi. Regarding the position taken by some of Austen's characters that you can't really assess a partner's character until after you are married, they definitely have a point. We know from all the divorces and dysfunctional families that exist today that illusions about someone with whom you have entered into a partnership can often be dispelled once the union is sealed. That said, though, I would also think it would be worth to put these female characters' skepticism in their proper historical context. I say this because first of all, if I understand correctly, the idea of romantic love being a desirable precondition to marriage, at least among the propertied upper classes, had only recently become a common idea at the time the books were written, or at least the balance between this consideration and the financial ones had shifted more in favor of the romantic one relatively recently. So Charlotte may have been brought up not to value romance (although she may just as well have been aromantic. Some people are today too). Secondly, I would venture a guess that it would have been harder in those days to get a deep understanding of your partner's nature and character before marriage, because, while marrying for love was something that was done (if only within one's social class, give or take), cohabitation, at least among those aspiring to propriety, was NOT. When courting, a respectable couple did not, as I understand, normally go on private dates. They would interface at public events such as dances, might (at some point in history, at any rate) be seen walking down the street together where they were in plain sight of the whole world, or would socialize in chaperoned home environments, but were not supposed to be in any intimate settings, let alone live together before marriage. I wonder if that didnt make many "love" matches in that time more superficial and not-properly-thought-out than today, and if it didn't make it harder to know who exactly it was you were marrying? At any rate, a great topic for a video.

Sometimes you have to choose the least evil.

And I feel to this day in many countries a lot of women still make this choice. Marry for financial comfort/ advantage rather than love.

It works for her and her personality. If she had my personality she would probably have ended up a poor governess or nun (never married) or murderess (killed Collins). Good thing we're not all the same.

Except I don't think it's low stress. It's secure, but your boss is an idiot you hate who has the right to sleep with you.

Great point. In that time and economy a woman had to be "strategic", smart and wise as her financial situation depended upon it. These days we girls don't "have" to choose like this b/c we aren't dependent on men like that. You can still be a Charlotte these days (and should consider those things regardless) but you don't "have" to. I still say be practical and don't base your decision solely or primarily on feelings/love. How many regrets has the latter caused? Whew!

Well put.

I am sure charlotte herself also had an “elizabeth” inside her, but reality forced her to ground herself. She was older and not as pretty.

Beautifully said!

@@Lppt87 Who knows maybe if Elizabeth wasn't married by the time she was Charlottes age maybe she would have felt things differently too.

I suspect she's more Elizabeth though, or she wouldn't have turned down the marriage offer made to her by her friend's brother, Manydown's heir.

A better offer would almost certainly have come Lizzie's way even if she hadn't met Mr Darcy. She was only 20, prettier than Charlotte, and of higher birth.

Better than the present hookup culture. The past isn't automatically inferior.

@@glendodds3824 Lizzie was 27 in the book

@@reggieferns Nop, she was 20-21

@@glendodds3824 It depends on what you mean by better offer. While Lizzy is young still, women married at 16-18 those days. Beinf almost 21 is not THAT young. Besides, she has no dowery. ANd her mother is not of the noble birth which means that most of noble families would have never looked at her. THe fact that Mr. Darcy's parents were dead was really ideal for Lizzy. Because no matter how good a people they might have been, those sort of things did matter in those days.

i want to add one thing: usually man that married with older women were seen with pity because often they were older, never had kids and so those marriages were seen as a last resort to get an heir

I agree. And her domestic and parish responsibilities, along with raising her children, will give her opportunities for fulfillment.

@@luciagianquitto4010 "man that married with older women were seen with pity because often they were older" I had the impression that a man who married an older woman was seen as marrying her for her money. Ironically enough, in the film "Becoming Jane" that is exactly what Jane Austen's own brother Henry did when he married their widowed first cousin (!) Eliza. Eliza was a full decade older than Henry Austen. If you're talking about an older *man* marrying an older woman, well then -- good luck to them in getting an heir. Childbirth would be even more dangerous than usual for an older woman. I don't think older men felt constrained to marry someone older. They often married young women. I was watching the show "Gentleman Jack" just the other evening. I became curious about Anne Lister's (the protagonist) father, since he had fought on the British side in the American Revolution and then written about his experiences. Anne's father Jeremy had married a girl 18 years younger than himself -- the mother of Anne and her siblings. This generation of the Lister family lived during the same period in which Austen was writing.

Charlotte Lucas, yes. Lucy Steele, no.

It's funny how our sympathies with characters change over time. I just saw Brigadoon again, and now all my sympathies are with Harry Beaton, the supposed villain who wants out of that smotheringly "quaint" village.

Yes I get where you are coming from I’m 70… born in the UK but with Italian heritage … most of my cousins in Italy in the 1960 and 70s were married by the time they were 18… my aunts friend on finding out I was 21 and unmarried, responded… such a shame she too old now.. I giggled .. I’m still single ….was engaged at 45 but fiancé died suddenly and since could not find anyone who could hold a candle to him.. I’m quite content on my own

@@Dcs.234 My mother (b. 1915) lived in an area of Los Angeles that had many immigrant Italian families. I remember hearing my mother and grandmother talking about how shockingly young the Italian girls often were when they were married.

People may have been more likely to think that way, but the reality was that 27 was the average age of first marriage for regency women, which I think adds more layers to Austen's works, especially P&P.

@@elizabethsommer7248 Where did you get that information? I am inclined to think it varied by location, class, income, and probably other factors. I will take Austen's word for it. Charlotte is old enough that her family is concerned about her being an old maid.

This isn’t even an old fashioned mindset. When my sister told our extended family she was going to do a PhD, one member exclaimed, “You aren’t going to wait until after to have kids, are you?!” It’s literally all anyone cares about for women.

I'd say out of everyone in the novel, Charlotte judges people the most accurately.

I agree. I don’t think she would have gone for just anyone. Collins treats her fairly and her chances of being happy are actually quite good. Unlike Lydia's.

@@alyssaagnew4147 Yes, I agree.

@@kaistinakemperdahl9667 Yes, Lydia choose very poorly!!!

Yes! Charlotte does not allow pride or prejudice to obscure her thinking.

She matured a lot by the end of the novel.

Lizzie isn't only prejudiced against Darcy, she tends to fit others into slots and leave them there. She saw Charlotte as just like her even when Charlotte tells her otherwise. She starts to re-examine her surroundings more often as time goes by.

Eh.. Lady Lucas is described as shrewd and Sir William is described as rather silly and a bit foolish. It could be that Charlotte was recreating the dynamic of her family of origin.

@@tessat338 I agree that the Lucases aren’t an example of perfect marriage. Seeing how intimate both families are, I think Charlotte and Lizzie are aware that their and each other’s parents aren’t well matched. But from this, Charlotte infers that happiness in mariage is purely chance (and their families aren’t that lucky), and Lizzie decides to take longer to find someone she can admire and respect.

@@tessat338 Yes . I think their families play a big part . Elisabeth saw their parents being unhappy but Charlotte saw her parents be just fine even if her father is like Mr Collins , maybe not perfectly happy but not miserable .

@@tessat338 I agree. I honestly think Charlotte learned from her parents that a foolish, pompous, somewhat socially inept husband can be managed by a competent wife. Lizzy, on the other hand, identifies more with her father and sees that he has not learned to 'manage' or mitigate the damage caused by his often foolish, sometimes socially inept wife and has instead retreated from any meaningful involvement with his family.

@@ElizabethJones-pv3sj I wish that I could upvote this comment more than once!!

yeah I have 3 years left to be 27. I also feel like a burden to my parents already.

Geez 27 is young y’all. I’m 34 and with this economy I have to live with family. We don’t live in the 1800’s so let’s be thankful we don’t have to make the Charlotte Lucas choice of marriage (unless we truly wanted to!).

Don’tworry. You’ll be a major help to your parents in a few decades!

@@julecaesara482 I have three nephews older than you. In the 21st century I can honestly say it gets better with age. So relax. Your best is yet to come.

Why don't you guys who are now adults and still relying on your parents for your basic needs, make a plan, get a job, either contribute to the household as a boarder would be expected to, or find a place of your own? Sorry if you have a disability that makes that difficult or impossible to do that, I don't mean you... But any able-bodied person in that situation, time to step up! Swallow your ego, just accept any job going, work at it for a while even if you don't like it... only with work experience behind you will you find better jobs. If there aren't any jobs around you, then relocate. Many industries are crying out for workers, just go where the jobs are. You can't compare your situation now to Charlotte and Elizabeth's: different times, different societal expectations.

Or slimy, Henry Crawford, selfish, lying, cheating, dishonorable, but Fanny was expected to accept him with all his awful character faults.

He tends to be obnoxious but abusive? I agree he doesn't seem like it.

Yes, that's kind of important! Considering how many young girls get into abusive relationships with 'attractive' young men today, perhaps we should all try to be more like Charlotte and less like Lydia! (Cause, let's face it: none of us are going to get to be Jane or Lizzie: not enough Bingleys and Darcys out there. Call me a cynic, but 'a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist!')

@@cmm5542 Haha such wise words. ...and sadly we are all not rich Emmas!

@@wiikendii If only 😉

She used her head and was being realistic about her options. Mr Collins is a resepctable man in terms of status and has good connections, plus he is going to inherit Longbourne eventually.

@@marroosh9771 and he’s not a bad man who would harm her or lose all their money on gambling or other women. He’s stupid and pompous, but marriage to him saved her from want and from the disdain old maids could have directed at them (think of how Miss Bates is seen/treated by Emma). I can definitely see why she made her choice. The book also emphasizes that he is young (actually younger than her by a few years, I believe); her level-headed practicality may eventually rub off on him enough to make associating with him more tolerable.

She engineered it, it wasn’t a windfall. Once he was ‘out’ with Lizzie, Charlotte jumped in and made it happen. She knowingly risked friendship with her best friend. I get it, just saying it wasn’t luck or a chance occurrence that took her by surprise. We all understand why she did it, I feel.

@@tahlia__nerds_out very true; just one nit to pick here. I think Emma would have been more respectful towards Miss Bates had she been a more sensible, coherent woman, as she was towards her ex-governess, Mrs. Weston, when she was Miss Taylor.

@@p_nk7279 It was a windfall that Mr Collins showed up in the first place, and that he wasn't already snapped up by somebody else. Also not really sure how the friendship with Lizzie was at risk when Lizzie had already definitively turned down Mr Collins. It's not like they were scrapping over a man.

Exactly. She would have centered her life around the children, not her husband. Many women did exactly that in previous centuries.

She's married to a gentleman. Also consider where Longbourn is, she will be next door to her family. And last, her father seems quite foolish, she's used to men like that, and has probably watched her mother deal with it. She would be happy, because of her marriage, she's risen to a better station in life, with excellent opportunities for her children, family nearby, Longbourn is more than a comfortable home. Mr Collins will be kind, and possibly doting, without character defects like gambling, or cheating, or worst, cruelty.

I view Collins as kind-of mean in how he treated the Lydia scandal, he said insensitive and mean things to the Bennetts about that and didn’t care about hurting them. Some of his ‘gossippy’ ways relative to Lady Catherine and putting down others seem to have a mean edge. His proposal to Lizzie includes some insulting notes as well. Other news - When the novel mentions at the end ‘Charlotte’s condition’ that’s an implication that she’s pregnant, so the children aspect seems about to come into Charlotte’s life!

@@p_nk7279 When Elizabeth turned down his proposal, it was a huge blow to his ego. He has all the prospects and connections, she has none. Even when she's leaving Hunsford, he's pointing out how happy and content that he and Charlotte are, not in order to say that things turned out fine in the end, but to throw it in Elizabeth's face that, "This all could have been yours. You would have been happy and content, but now you are a future spinster." I think he had two motives in going to the Bennets and it's not to commiserate. He wanted to crow about how he dodged a bullet by not marrying Elizabeth, and he did want to be mean and hurt Elizabeth the way that she hurt him. Very petty and not the generousity of spirit you expect from a clergyman.

@@soofriends My opinion as well.

I agree. I've always thought that the Charlotte/Collins marriage was set as a counterpoint to the Lydia/Wickham marriage in order to highlight the 'ideal' match Elizabeth and Darcy made. Lydia and Wickham's marriage was made because they let their passions get the better of their senses. It was all emotion. Lydia seemed to remain infatuated with Wickham, but he didn't really respect her. Charlotte did the opposite and made a marriage without passion to a man she barely respects because it was a good, sensible choice for her. She seems happy enough in her marriage, mostly because she's clever enough to get Mr Collins out of the house for most of the day. Lizzie and Darcy, on the other hand, make both a sensible marriage and a marriage of love and affection. So theirs is a marriage, unlike the other two, that is a balance of both head and heart and, hence, the ideal marriage.

@@wendywatkins3625 very well said

@@wendywatkins3625 Also, she stays cordial, polite and respectful to him which convinces him that they have a love match. She does what she can to keep herself content by limiting her interaction with him, yet when she is with him, she does not puncture his ego and let's him happily think himself a man of status and influence. She is no sarcastic Mr. Bennet. She lets his delusions stand. If she can keep this up for a lifetime, I think she is set.

@@jgw5491 That is true and she is very clever in that. Elizabeth admires how Charlotte manages him and she made a happy enough home for them both. With children coming, too, as we find out by the end of the novel, who we can assume will be raised mainly under her guidance to be more sensible than their father. And once they inherit Longbourne, she will be one of the leading ladies of the neighborhood. So the non-romantic Charlotte made an excellent and clear-headed decision to marry Mr. Collins, which gave her everything a woman of that time and social status could hope for, if not more. It's not a marriage Elizabeth would have wanted, but it was a good decision for Charlotte and she made the best of it.

Escapism and wish fulfillment are among its many other lasting appeals.

And the same holds true today. Not many Bingleys and Darcys out there.

Agreed. Lizzie and Jane do marry for love. But how convenient that their husbands have pots of money. Charlotte’s situation is far more realistic.

Interesting to also consider Elizabeth's uncle and aunt, Mr and Mrs Gardiner. They seem to be very affectionate towards each other. An ideal older married couple. I wonder what their story was. Perhaps Elizabeth and Jane both looked to them as role models for an ideal marriage?

@@jannertfolI think perspective there is that people in ‘trade’ the growing middle class in the beginning stages of Industry- they can gain wealth quicker but not title, and if not interested in moving circles have a bit more freedom in their dating and more likely to marry for affection. They don’t have standing OR poverty to corral their choices.

I’m so excited for the new adaptation of Persuasion!!!!

@@EllieDashwood I'm not as it sounds like they're going to make the Brigerton version of Persuasion. There was another attempt that seems to have been cancelled that had cast Sarah Snook.

@@bernadmanny I don't mind them making a Disney version of it, as long as it's good and enjoyable. If there is one thing the pandemic taught me, it's that life is short and I don't want to be criticised for my likes and tastes anymore. If I want to see the serious literary adaptation I know where to find it. Sally Hawkins was brilliant in that role. But I want to enjoy fluff too 😉

@@bernadmanny This is the first I've heard of a new Persuasion adaptation, but I hope it doesn't get Bridgertonized.

Persuasion is my fav Jane Austin story... I love it because it's about 2nd chance...at love no less...

Also, let's not forget how Lizzie's future as a spinster might not have turned out as bright as her romantic soul imagined. Defying conventions at 20 is not exactly the same as actually living with the consequences at 40+, as proven by other Austen characters.

@@susivarga7303 Yes, you're right. However, I think Lizzie would have had the fortitude to say to herself: "I've made my bed, now I'm going to lie [alone] in it." She probably would have ended up writing books for a living, just like her creator. 😊

@@cat_luvr6895 Guess we'll never know, Austen had Mr Darcy waiting around tge corner when Lizzie was making her grand speeches 😉 I guess I was mostly thinking about Ms Bates for example. Lizzie would have had a lot to deal with financially. I'm not convinced she truely wanted to stay a spinster but her environment and suitors were just one big disappointment.

@@susivarga7303 "Austen had Mr Darcy waiting around the corner when Lizzie was making her grand speeches" Exactly. The appearances of Bingley and Darcy and the 'incandescent' [refer to the film Becoming Jane 😊] marriages of Jane and Lizzie Bennet are the whole point of the novel, aren't they? Without those marriages, there's not much storyline there. The novel is a great tale of wish-fulfillment fantasy -- maybe the greatest in literature. That's what has caused its staying power for over two centuries. Lizzie was a very unselfish person; the happiness of her beloved sister Jane was all she really cared about. As for herself, well -- I got the feeling she was willing to take her chances. And I can't see Lizzie ending up like Miss Bates, somehow. Miss Bates came across to me as kind of a 'flibbertigibbet,' not to put too fine a point on it... Lizzie was always much more sensible and down-to-earth than that.

@@cat_luvr6895 I just pointed out the narrative, how we can never take Lizzie seriously with regards to her plans for spinsterhood because we KNOW she's the heroine and there will be an eligible rich bachelor worthy of her around the corner. But in reality, many strong-willed, smart, pretty women remained unmarried all their lives due to their high expectations and many sensible Ms Bates'-in-waiting caught a Mr Collins just in time.

Yes, Mr. Collins wanted the respectability that a good outside image of marriage life brings, the confortabler house you find with a wife instead of just servants, and kids. Charlotte wanted safety. They gave each other what they wanted. And let's not forget that Charlotte started very early on with taming and molding Mr. Collins to make him more palatable. She encouraged him to do a bunch of stuff away from her that had an air of respectability and could give him some satisfaction. She kept herself to those areas of the house he was less prone to intrude on. Basically the worst down side to the marriage is that she could not avoid sleeping with him. But even here, especially after a kid, I'm sure she'll train him to expect less and less.

@@mffmoniz2948 I want to belive that Charlotte could persuade only to sleep with her bcs of the whish of children and not for pleasure (Collins beeing a "man of god") so that she had to endure the bare minimum ;)

Not sure if aromantic is the best word, but given the severy limited choices she had in life (and about her future), she definitely picked the best one. And expecting nothing she could only be pleasantly surpised, not disappointed. She set herself up for (longterm) succes that way. I hope we can have more, better options ;) (but can hope for just as much succes in making the right one for us).

We assume the same will not be true for Lydia.

In S&S, neither Willoughby or Lucy Steele end up 'punished', either.

@@amiethompson6062 Because Lydia doesn't have Charlotte's sense and it's hard to imagine Wickham would do a 180 and be a better man.

Charlotte literally does say 'I am not romantic you know. I never was.' I firmly believe she would have chosen the single life had she lived in the modern era with more options open to her.

When you said baby Collins I suddenly imagined a replica of Mr Collins popping out in the delivery room. 👶😂

@ellie thank you for the nightmares

If baby Collins is a boy, she definitely won't be starving in the hedgerows.

@@EllieDashwood even if he is. As long as he is a good son to his mother, what difference does it make to Charlotte's happiness?

Same! I think it's though it's more that she can't afford romance, she has to be practical. She is 27 and not rich and her family are upstarts and comes from trade * gasps in regency upper class*. I agree she does get a lot from the marriage such a respect from the community Mr Collins although he's pomous and irritating does also seem ok in other aspects. He doesn's drink to excess, not careless with money, nor does he seem likley to cheat, and he's not mean or abusive!

That’s such an interesting point about the sensibleness of her own family! 🧐

I think Charlotte was a very practical, sensible young woman. She doesn't live in airy fairy romantic dreams like Lizzie. She made a sensible decision which worked out well for her. Lizzie for me is too hot headed and impulsive for her own good. Mr. Benett was right to be worried when she accepted Mr. Darcy, knowing her impulsive nature. If you ask me she made the riskier choice, marrying Mr. Darcy and entering into a world which was far more sophisticated to what she was used to.

I think Emma was against marrying because she knew if she did she'd be handing her fortune, her power and her independence over to her husband. Such were the laws about marriage at the time. As an heiress Emma was in a different position from those women who did not have fortunes.

@@Amy-ky5wr true. But when she did her matchmaking material; matters came before love. Love was something that had to be dealt with to convince her subjects to participate in her eyes. Isabella Thorpe and Lucy Steele are also of that marry for comfort regard; but I feel they are different in that they aim to go as high as possible at whatever cost, not just marry contractually and comfortably with dignity.

@@Amy-ky5wr I disagree. You attribute modern values to 18th century women. These women want a good match. Uncertainty regarding a mate is the issue. However, Emma was never uncertain until her error in judgement became apparent even to her.

@@anamericanfriend2367 I don't have the book in hand but weren't those the reasons she gave for not getting married? Because she wouldn't have the same power in her husband's house that she has in her father's house, and she's rich enough not to worry about her livelihood or social conventions?

@@giovana4121 That might be Emma's feeling due to her controlling nature. Her father seems to be a hypochondriac. I think she's co-dependent. It's about human nature not necessarily a sociological critique. In today's culture we have have the tendency, wrongfully so, to look at societal differences only in terms of oppression. I don't think that is necessarily their sensibility.

You reminded me of my grandmother. She told me “you have to choose someone carefully, but no too much. You won’t know them anyway”

Shelves in the closet 😆 love it!

Exactly! Especially when it was so difficult to get out of a bad marriage back then. If he'd beat you, you were just kind of stuck with it. A pompous, arrogant, Silly Man; who for all his other flaws did not have a mean bone in his body, was Far preferable to being a sad unwanted spinster.

and how pray tell being a lesbian can be relevant here? How can love be different for lesbians and straits?

@@panchitaobrian1660 I think there’s multiple interesting ways of interpreting Charlotte’s character. It’s possible that she’s just being practical about her marriage prospects and has given up on being romantic. It’s also possible that she honestly isn’t romantically interested in men. I’m not necessarily saying she would be a lesbian, just that I relate a lot to her character. Not everyone wants a beautiful, perfect romance with a man. There’s always been women like that, and many of them made a similar decision as Charlotte. People couldn’t exactly be openly gay in the regency era.

@@allie6160 ok, I see your point now, you suggest that Charlotte could be lesbian. I´d just like to remind you that all people are bysexual by nature, only about 1 % or less will always choose to be homosexual, the choice to be homosexual make much more people in certain cultures and social classes (like, 100 % male homosexuality in Ancient Greece but only among aristocracy), Regency period´s gentry had no such culture and Austin obviously didn´t mean that Charlotte could be lesbian, so I don´t see why we should even look at this possibility

@@panchitaobrian1660 People are not all bisexual by nature, or social customs would have developed differently.

Elizabeth was quite a snob here.

@@menchualcarazmoreno1743 totally.

i like elizabeth but she is very idealistic, marrying without love is not an ideal but when it comes to surviving yes she was lucky to have mr darcy for example because if she didn't have Lidia would have destroyed her own reputation and the 5 sisters wouldn't get any marriage, and when Mr Bennet died only God knows what would happen to them

Well, Lizzie wasn't the one paying the bills was she? Was she going to support Charlotte for the rest of her life?

Overall, Elizabeth was quite a judgmental person. Not in the way of the Bingley sisters, but in the expectation of living up to an ideal. I hope she grew as she became mistress of Pemberley so she was better able to be generous in nature to staff and the locals. I think the shock of misjudging Mr Darcy was a good learning experience.

Charlotte would be an amazing mother. In her older years, Charlotte would be a tower of strength. I can imagine all of Mr. Collins female parishioners going to Charlotte for guidance and advice.

Did she suffer from her choice? Financially, yes. Emotionally?

😂 In the end, we all end up like Mrs Bennet. 😂

@@EllieDashwood: So true!

Unless you prefer children to adults and love teaching . . . like me 😉. I feel governesses get a bad rep from all those who were forced into it as opposed to scholarly girls relatively uninterested in men and socializing who would have been very happy as governesses, making their own income as a single woman back then.

I also wonder if someone like Collins would grow into himself and develop more self-confidence without the condescending influences of those around him who deem him inferior/annoying/foolish.

Yes, Mr. Collins wanted the respectability that a good outside image of marriage life brings, the confortabler house you find with a wife instead of just servants, and kids. Charlotte wanted safety. They gave each other what they wanted. And let's not forget that Charlotte started very early on with taming and molding Mr. Collins to make him more palatable. She encouraged him to do a bunch of stuff away from her that had an air of respectability and could give him some satisfaction. She kept herself to those areas of the house he was less prone to intrude on. Basically the worst down side to the marriage is that she could not avoid sleeping with him. But even here, especially after a kid, I'm sure she'll train him to expect less and less.

That’s so true!

Wait that is very interesting! I'd añso like to know that!

I don't think Wickham was capable of a good choice. 🙂

Also she needed to get married so her sister could enter society, unlike the Bennet's, her family was really rule following

I read somewhere that Mary married a clerk of one of her uncles. Since her sisters left, she was the star of Merryton. And Kitty was taken under Lizzie and Jane's wing and she made an excellent match.

@@allanaalberto9730 she married a clergy man

As I can guess from the description of Kitty, she was ill and would die of TBC soon. Taking care of distant relatives was a duty and no trouble for the rich Darcys. The girls would get a pocket money of their own - 50 £ a year as their father promised; food was no problem at the estate, neither was a free room for them at the manor or a small house nearby.

Wtf I am sorry your mom said to you at such a young age. Everyone deserves a loving marriage. Charlotte made a good choice because it was the early 1800s and marrying was literally the only choice she had to have a decent life. Now women can get jobs and don't have to marry people they don't love for security. And if it doesn't work out, there is an option for divorce, something that Charlotte didn't have. I love P and P but I am glad society has evolved so people can live their lives authenticity. I say this as a gay dude 😎

@@RoseofSeattle I think it's pretty realistic though. A lot of people think romantic love saves everything, but it doesn't. (Unless we think that all divorces are a result of loveless marriages, which is factually untrue based on the surveys we have). Being a teenager imo is not too young to have people start thinking about the differences between infatuation, love, and like, even if they may not understand it then. There's no harm, of course, in striving for love/finding the perfect person for you, but I don't think focusing on your own needs is mercenary, even in the modern world.

It has shelves in the closet!!!!! 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

That is definitely one of his strong points!!!

This is the lesbian fanfic I need!

I ❤️❤️❤️ this idea!

Also (this thought just occurred to me), her father is a bit of a pompous fool (though kind). Living with a pompous, foolish man is not new to her… and with Mr. Collins, she is at least mistress of the house and not a dependent old maid.

and Miss Lucas, who accepted him solely from the pure and disinterested desire of an establishment, cared not how soon that establishment were gained.

Likely to inherit, but not definitely. If Mrs. Bennet died before Mr. Bennet, and he remarried and had a son, that son would inherit if he survived his father. Mr. Bennet is probably only around 40 at the opening of the novel.

@@edithengel2284 His oldest daughter at the beginning of the novel is 21 or 22, so he is older than 40; more likely mid to late 40s, at least. Men in the Regency era did not marry as young as women did. However, it’s true that that is still younger than we often picture him; and you raise an interesting possibility of him marrying again and fathering an heir if Mrs. Bennet were to suddenly pass away. What a sequel that would make! 😊

@@cherier9875 I think Mr. Bennet's choice of Miss Gardiner was the mistake of youth, so likely closer to 40 than 50. But even if he was older, the point still stands that he could remarry if widowed, and have a son.

@@edithengel2284 Mrs Bennet might only be 40, if she married at 16 (very young!!) but she's more likely about 43 or 44 or so. Mr Bennet is extremely unlikely to have married before he came of age at 21 at the absolute earliest, so assuming Jane came along in the first year, he'd be at least 22 when she was born and she's 23 by the end of the book. So at least mid forties, likely late forties. Probably not more than early fifties at the oldest though, as I agree with you about the mistake of youth.

and Miss Lucas, who accepted him solely from the pure and disinterested desire of an establishment, cared not how soon that establishment were gained.

And while Mr. Collins does amuse us with his sucking up to his patron, that is one of his duties, and he does take the other duties of attending to his parishioners' seriously. While this helped keep him busy, it also shows that he takes his duties to those under his care seriously, which presumably would extend to his wife and family.

@@christophersmith8316 There are worse clergymen in Austen than Mr. Collins. (I'm looking over there at Mr. Elton.)

Charlotte warns Elizabeth not to let her partiality for Wickham cause her to be rude to a man ten times his consequence, meaning Mr. Darcy.

@@villagedianne Oooooh! Yes. She is so observant and wise, with the best advice.

Sir Thomas did try and persuade Maria not to marry Mr Rushworth. He even offered to speak to him for her himself.

Charlotte also begins to suspect during Lizzie's visit that Darcy has fallen in love with her friend. Caroline Bingley warns Lizzie that Wickham might not be trustworthy, but, considering the source, and blinded by prejudice, Lizzie rejects the advice. I do think many women did wish to marry for love, and there was more marrying for at least affection than one might think in the period. A real gentleman would not have been so likely to be shocked by Lizzie's refusal: Collins however is completely narcissistic and Darcy is deluded by his pride.

In my best Monica Gellar-Bing voice: "I KNOW!" I borrowed it from the library on audio book and LOVED it!

Great book! And seeing the story from a different perspective really gives these characters some humanity. Not all things are black and white. I also highly recommend other folks to read this book

I agree. In his proposal he says he won't hold Lizzie's small dowry against her, or bring it up in fights they may have, and then immediately does exactly that when she rejects him. As you pointed out he tattles to Lady Catherine and rubs all the girls noses in Lydia's disgrace. Charlotte may have a room of her own to escape to, but a room wouldn't be enough and I think she'll end up spending more time with him than she would prefer. There's only so many ways you can avoid someone you live with. Although, maybe having noisy kids in the house would drive him away some of the time...

Actually in the book Mr. C wrote to Mr. B his condemnation of Lydia...the movie version was way more dramatic. My opinion is the book version shows Mr. C as being so ignorant of the rules of minding his business he just blabs it out. Not necessarily bad or ill natured; just doesn't know how to behave. 😕

The thing is that clergy back then were supposed to be involved in the moral and spiritual concerns of thrir congregation and family. Popular Christianity was just...different then. He would not have been seen as doing his job had he not addressed it. And rubbing Lizzys nose in it might have been gauche but it was understandable. He had a good living, was trying to heal a family breach and decided of all places to get a bride from the Bennets. Had she accepted her family wouldnt have been thrown out after Mr Bennets death and his position would have dictated that her provide a home for her mother and unmarried sisters. So he's arrogant when he comes to visit because according to his world, it isnt really arrogance. He's coming with a lot to offer and to basically be told "i find your person so repugnant that nothing else you have to offer can make a difference " is very hurtful. I can understand him showing off his domestic bliss a bit when Lizzy comes to visit.

Yeah, Mr. Collins is a sanctimonious little twerp, but I think that Charlotte would be able to coax him out of some of that over time. When he's more secure as a father, landowner and husband, a frequent reminder of his many advantages and some biblical passages about charity and modesty would probably have given him some food for thought - not that he would have actually become more charitable and modest, but he would certainly love to be seen as such.

It depends on how you choose to define "bad person" The qualities you've pointed out are not admirable, but certainly not as severe as being abusive, gambling, philandering, etc... Mr. Collins's defects are also similar to Charlotte's father's (Olivia Cox made a video about his snobbishness) So this is very much the devil Charlotte "knows"

Well obviously each side in a courtship is putting their best side forward and trying to conceal any flaws, and that can't continue forever.

@@christophersmith8316 Yep. That’s also why we shouldn’t rush into relationships.

Han Ng, that’s an interesting comparison, between Charlotte Lucas and Mary Crawford. I’ll have to think about that one.

In a way, Charlotte’s behavior proves Mary Crawford’s point. Charlotte says that a woman should show more than she feels in order to encourage a man. She softens it though by saying that there will be plenty of time to fall in love after a woman has obtained her man. So she doesn’t sound as cynical as Mary.

Lydia didn't care about Wickham's character, and I don't doubt that she dealt with the unhappier parts of it as they became clear to her with her usual nonchalance. She is virtually amoral. Furthermore, I doubt she would view herself as worse off than Charlotte, whom she probably would regard as a stick-in-the-mud. Lydia happily sponged off her sisters; she will always land on her feet. She and Wickham were, in a way, well matched.

Mr Collins is awkward but he's also pretty transparent (much more so than he himself probably realises). I think I'd lay money on him remaining no more than annoying. When you married for security, what was your assessment of your husband's character prior to the marriage?

Sorry you had an abusive husband, hope you can heal!❤️‍🩹

I would say I am too and in general my approach to life is much like Charlotte’s, but I became engaged to someone I dated for three weeks and married within six months. It was totally out of character for me but we’re still happily married and it’s been 47years. Elizabeth’s romantic love is wonderful but it takes Charlotte’s pragmatic approach to marriage to make itlasting and fulfilling for both parties. Charlotte had few options but given the chance of a good marriage, she seized it and made it work for her. Elizabeth is young enough to hold out for romantic love but she might have changed her mind if she was on the shelf at twenty seven .

I recall reading Pride and Prejudice for the first time at 18, and going “yes, solid choice, Charlotte. Why is Lizzy ticked off? I mean, yeah, Collins sucks, but he’s totally the lesser of two evils.” Which, yeah, was probably my grim practicality coming out even then.

and Miss Lucas, who accepted him solely from the pure and disinterested desire of an establishment, cared not how soon that establishment were gained.

Yess I very much interpret her as aromantic!

I disagree the Charlotte would have accepted any proposal. She was a good judge of character and even for stability and a family, she wouldn't have accepted a man who was cruel, abusive and vindictive.

If Lizzie were a governess, she would have done a Jane Eyre!

We really don't know what Charlotte's parents' marriage was like, or how it operated financially. We only see her father, a rather good soul obsessed with his knighthood, which has gone to his head. I don't recall that we know anything about his wife except that she was friendly with Mrs. Bennet. I don't see any evidence that they were money-obsessed. What her parents were like with each other we never see. So I can't agree that Charlotte is mercenary on that (or any other) basis. As she says to Lizzie, she only wants a respectable home of her own. Lizzie certainly rejects the style of her parents' marriage, although I don't see how she is opposing it.

Yes, this. Even growing up I knew women who saw marriage as their only possibility against starvation and being underfoot of their relatives. Chances of hapinness were bellow zero but really, they had no choice. So they said yes.