Charlotte Lucas engaged to Mr Collins! | JANE AUSTEN PRIDE AND PREJUDICE analysis & narrative voice

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4 жыл бұрын

Jane Austen PRIDE AND PREJUDICE analysis | Close reading of the fallout from Charlotte Lucas' engagement to Mr Collins in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. What are Charlotte's views on marriage? How does Charlotte explain what she's done? How does the narrative voice treat Charlotte's decision? How does Elizabeth Bennet view Charlotte's choice? Analysis of Jane Austen's writing style, considering how Austen's narrative voice treats Charlotte Lucas differently from Elizabeth Bennet's character.
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@DrOctaviaCox 4 жыл бұрын

Do leave any comments that you have. Do you think that the narrative voice gives Charlotte a fair hearing?

@joanmarten3492 3 жыл бұрын

I had understood by the time I read this book that marriage was a job at that time. Consider Charlotte's options! Caretaker for elderly parents as long as they lasted, then dependence on thoughtless brothers!

@SouthCountyGal 3 жыл бұрын

I think Charlotte does get a fair hearing through the narrative, though not always through her words. We see in the description of her accidentally on purpose meeting Mr. Collins in the lane that her actions are deliberate. Lizzy objecting so vehemently to Charlotte's acceptance of the proposal gives Charlotte the opportunity to outline her reasons. Lizzy's long visit to the married Collinses' house gives us the knowledge that Charlotte is content in the life she chose.

@helza 3 жыл бұрын

I've always admired Charlotte for making the most of an opportunity and for the way she is shown to "manage" Collins after they are married.

@mena94x3 3 жыл бұрын

All excellent points. Totally agreed.

@SouthCountyGal 3 жыл бұрын

@Gaming Miser I agree, Charlotte seems like someone who will eventually look to fill the void in her marriage with other things. She'll become an obsessive mother, or gardener, or the most involved caretaker of the parish. A Lady Catherine without the haughtiness?

@adorabell4253 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte, despite Mr. Collins being odious, made an extremely good match. Right away, she avoids spinsterhood (always a horrible prospect if you don't have a fortune fortune like Emma Woodhouse's). She also mildly elevates her station. Before she is a fortuneless daughter on the edge of spinsterhood, after she is the respected wife of a cleric of a well provided parish in very good standing with the patron and main landlord of the area. Mr. Collins' income is not overly large, but it is good enough to live comfortably and have at least 2 servants, likely 3. She enters Hunsford pretty high along the social ladder. She is also assured of an even better future as Mr. Collins is heir to Longbourn, a very well provided for estate and she is likely to have at least one son. She will, after a few years, return to the area of her youth and be one of the leading families of the area. And, not being Mrs. Bennet, will likely save up a decent amount to have for potential widowhood. She will also be close to the parents and able to help care for her mother if her father dies first. And her position, and the patronage of Lady Catherine, will help Mariah find a good match in a few years.

@maudegonne3740 3 жыл бұрын

Yes but she has to share a bed with him Uggh!

@08andylee 3 жыл бұрын

Surely you mean Maria, even though her name is pronounced Mariah.

@SouthCountyGal 3 жыл бұрын

At 27 her chances of finding a better proposition are very slim. Charlotte is more intelligent than Mr. Collins, and he is easily led as long as Charlotte adheres to the things he is inflexible about. She has to dine once a week at the manor, but she can also convince her husband to go for three-hour walks every afternoon so she gets alone time. For someone who has no reason to believe Prince Charming is on his way, it's a good deal.

@NemisCassander 3 жыл бұрын

One small nitpick. It is mentioned in the book that the Collinses do not go into society around Hunsford because it was above their means. So I agree with everything else, but she clearly did not 'enter Hunsford pretty high along the social ladder.'

@glendodds3824 3 жыл бұрын

@@NemisCassander Further to your comment. i suspect that Mr Collins obsequious manner alienated most of the local gentry around Hunsford. On the other hand, Lady Catherine de Bourgh liked sycophants.

@akupke7953 2 жыл бұрын

I think one of the purposes of Charlotte's character is to highlight how lucky Elizabeth really is (well, as you point out, the author makes it so). Elizabeth has very little to offer in the marriage market, but she turns down not one, but two "eligible" offers. We admire her, of course, because she acts out of a sense of personal integrity, but Mrs Bennet is not wrong when she considers this behaviour selfish. Charlotte does her duty by her family. It also highlights how naive Elizabeth is in her judgement, as if the worst quality a man could possibly posses is being a tiresome conversationalist. Does she not know that there are men who are drunkards, gamblers, wife-beaters, philanderers? Mr Collins may be a sycophant, and his brown-nosing of Lady Catherine is repulsive, but he is also a man who is willing to marry a woman without a dowry. He has good intentions, and while he is too stupid to see that his actions rarely do much good, that is still a lot better than having bad intentions. And Elizabeth, who very nearly fell for the dishonourable, lying, gambling seducer of under-age girls Wickham, just because he looks nice and talks a good talk, should be very, very careful in her judgement of the Collinses.

@strll3048 7 ай бұрын

The parallels you have drawn are impressive, thank you for this insight.

@fisherjune1060 7 ай бұрын

Wow! Intense💯

@lizziebkennedy7505 7 ай бұрын

Tiresome conversationalist? That’s an incredible understatement about a vile, moralistic bigot who says Lydia would better off dead.

@malena5026 5 ай бұрын

@@lizziebkennedy7505when did he state that?

@paulaabelenda5867 5 ай бұрын

⁠⁠@@malena5026More than once. Just today, I was reading chapter 48 and in his latter to Mr. Bennet he said “The death of your daughter would have been a blessing in comparison of this.”

@oielvert 3 жыл бұрын

There's a quiet subversion when it comes to this subject. Charlotte Lucas CHOOSES Mr. Collins as her husband. She's not picked as a wife, she never goes through courtship. She takes complete agency on her situation. That's pretty subversive considering the path laid out before her. She did the waiting, she went to all the dances and was now destined to be a spinster for lack of assets in the "marriage market". Now she chooses to swallow any misguided sense of PRIDE in thinking there may be a better proposal in the horizon. Without PREJUDICE, she sees what a marriage to Mr. Collins has to offer and embarks on a mission to escape financial insecurity and social stigma. I only wish we had a POV on Charlotte's meeting on the road with Mr. Collins. That might have been one of the most unconventional marriage proposals to be witnessed.

@jogibson9394 3 жыл бұрын

Dr Cox's suggestion is that Mr Collins merely rehashed his proposal to Lizzie - which he had prepared in advance and so could simply be edited slightly.

@piros100 3 жыл бұрын

this is a really interesting point, I never thought of Charlotte as an active agent but in fact she did lead Mr. Collins to propose to her.

@droolingfangirl 3 жыл бұрын

@@jogibson9394 I

@iorethofgondor 3 жыл бұрын

Very interesting take!

@NemisCassander 3 жыл бұрын

@@piros100 Maybe it's because I'm a guy, but I always saw Charlotte as 'taking the lead' in 'landing' Mr. Collins. It says in several places that Charlotte encouraged his advances, and afterwards she reflected 'on winning her point'.

@KR-ue1gd 3 жыл бұрын

Lady Catherine told Mr. Collins to "choose properly, choose a gentlewoman for my sake; and for your own, let her be an active, useful sort of person, not brought up high, but able to make a small income go a good way." When Mr. Collins misjudged Lizzie's compatibility and took Charlotte as a consolation prize, he ended up with exactly what Lady Catherine prescribed! Naturally, Lady Catherine would take all the credit for giving the good advice, but Mr. Collins didn't really follow it... he just lucked into it. Between Lady Catherine and the new Mrs. Collins, he'll spend his life being managed by smarter women.

@AnnaGirardini 3 жыл бұрын

Mr Collins is the luckiest silly little man

@beaupeep 3 жыл бұрын

"He'll spend his life being managed by smarter women," - lol, rightly said, and he'll never know any different!

@2degucitas 3 жыл бұрын

And he needs it.

@kittikats 3 жыл бұрын

He didn't luck into it. Charlotte is sensible and intelligent. She is almost 30, of a large family and now has a man that will propose with very little romantic encouragement. She is SENSIBLE of her position in society and what little she offers on the marriage market. That this is her only chance move up and secure a future. She is also clear sighted enough to see he is a pompous and grating man and has no illusion about what marriage to him will be. She is INTELLIGENT enough to see how he works and make herself pleasing towards him. And once they're married she arranges her house and life to have minimal contact with him.

@mirjanbouma 3 жыл бұрын

@@kittikats I think they mean that him ending up with Charlotte had less to do with his planning in the matter and more with factors (ladies) outside his direct control. Which is true. After lady Catherine ordered him to get married (so we can assume he wasn't actively planning anything in that regard at that moment), he went for a Bennett sister. I haven't read the book yet, but from comments here it seems Charlotte had planted some seeds of suggestion in Mr. Collins' mind that she would be open to a proposal - she's not stupid, she thinks ahead and she knows Lizzie well enough that since she dislikes him, she's likely to refuse him. Charlotte is very practical and sensible. He - for all his flaws - means a safe and comfortable life for her. He proposed to her because of the decisions and actions of the women around him, not because of his own machinations. Last Catherine made him find a wife, Lizzie made him pick someone else - and given the way that went it would have been very awkward and possibly humiliating to propose to another Ms Bennett - and Charlotte set herself up in his thoughts as eligible. That is his luck - that the women around him caused him to end up with Charlotte.

@oekmama 3 жыл бұрын

You feel every year of the seven year age difference between Charlotte and Lizzie in that exchange... the full weight of Lizzie‘s pride that her analysis of the situation as the only valid one possible.

@Pinksugarelephant 2 жыл бұрын

yes, this is definitely Lizzie at her judgiest, which is typical of the sort of simple reasoning we all have when we're young and inexperienced.

@louisegogel7973 Жыл бұрын

@@Pinksugarelephant Yes! And another point as to why comparing the two at only one level is a judge mental thing to do! There are many factors which go into the thoughts we have and the decisions we make.

@imavictorian 11 ай бұрын

The irony is that after Elizabeth declares the engagement to be impossible, Lady Catherine does the same thing to Lizzy at the end.

@03maggield 3 жыл бұрын

This is a little off topic, but Charlotte’s beliefs about courtship and marriage are also shown to be sound and create some irony when she and Lizzy discuss Jane’s attachment to Mr. Bingley and she says that Jane should put forth more effort to show her regard toward Bingley to “secure” him. If Jane had followed that advice, she would have become engaged to Bingley much sooner. So Charlotte is a bit like Mrs. Bennet in her pragmatic approach toward marriage.

@robinlillian9471 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte is pragmatic, but much wiser than Mrs. Bennet. That is pretty much the only thing they have in common. Mrs. Bennet's behavior lowered her daughters' chances of making a good marriage. She should have reigned in Lydia years ago.

@kittikats 3 жыл бұрын

Mrs Bennet is NOT pragmatic. She is obsessed with getting her daughters married off to any man that will have them, the wealthier the better. How do we know this? In her deliberate puffing up of a colonel's salary (if a young colonel of 4 or 5 thousand a year) but you'd most likely have an income in the range of 500 - 1500 pounds a year. Also once she fails to get Lizzy to change her mind she suggests Mary as a good alternative (Mary seems to have a crush on him). If she had any pragmatic sense she would have steered him away from Lizzy, a spirited romantic, in the first place. Lizzy would never accept him.

@richardkovacs2006 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte is smart, her advice is on point..mrs.Bennett is far from being smart...

@MarciaALW 3 жыл бұрын

The marriage of Charlotte to Mr. Collins also gives Elizabeth her first opportunity to reassess an initial snap judgment. After seeing Charlotte content in her situation, she realizes that she had been hasty and less than generous in pronouncing it “impossible” for Charlotte to be happy with her choice. No sooner does she realize that she was wrong about that, than she is hit with the possibility that she’s been wrong about a whole lot of other things. Throughout the rest of the novel, she has the chance to reassess her views on everything - her father’s parenting, Jane’s placidity, and of course Wickham’s character. Rethinking her position on Charlotte’s marriage cracks open the door to her character journey of being more willing to take time and gather complete information before fixing her opinions. This culminates of course in re-examining Mr. Darcy and her feelings toward him.

@jogibson9394 3 жыл бұрын

That 'Impossible!' from Lizzy conveys so much! Impossible that Mr Collins should propose just three days after his proposal to Lizzy; impossible that Charlotte should accept him; and impossible that the marriage will be at all satisfactory. But (as we know) Lizzy is wrong on all three counts.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! Fabulous point. Not "impossible" at all.

@mariateresam3206 2 жыл бұрын

And we forget that Charlotte marrying Mr. Collins is the catalyst for Lizzy and Mr. Darcy actually getting to know each other. If she had not visited the new Mrs. Collins, Mr. Darcy could’ve never spend enough time to propose to Lizzy the first time. A lot happened on that trip, even the Wickham revelation wouldn’t have happened.

@chriscarson7384 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte is one of my favorite characters in P&P. I think she gives us a pragmatic view of Regency life and the limited options open to respectable women without fortunes. She makes the most of every situation through thoughtful, clever management of people and resources. She doesn't see herself as a victim. I think she probably considers herself highly successful, again, given the options open to her.

@angelalewis3645 8 ай бұрын

I love that! She IS highly successful, and she doesn’t consider herself a victim. Wonderful!

@cminmd0041 3 жыл бұрын

I am a total Charlotte Stan! Charlotte is so smart and right on the money!!! If the Bennett girls has listened to her, so much would have been avoided! I don't think it's inappropriate that Charlotte and Collins got engaged so quickly. Collins felt honor bound to offer for one of the Bennett girls as a way to rectify their loss of Longbourn through the entail. Once his offer was rejected I think he felt his obligation to the Bennetts was over and he was free to find someone more suited to him- which I think Charlotte is. Lizzie is very judgmental against Collins but what is so terrible about him? What do we know. He is willing to marry someone rather poor and unaccomplished due to honor. I like that even though he is heir presumptive to Longbourn he went to college, became a vicar, won a job, house and patronage of the very wealthy Lady Catherine. Compare him to Mr Elliot from Persuasion who does nothing but marry a woman for money and make her miserable! I think part of what we are supposed to see is how often Lizzie is wrong about the people she judges. She is wrong about Darcy, wrong about Wickham and I think wrong about Collins and even her good friend Charlotte.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Very persuasively argued observations. Mr Collins is unpleasant in many ways, but he's not a _bad_ man. And Charlotte knows what she is about when she marries him. The narrative voice (it seems to me) is a better friend to Charlotte than Lizzy is, in that it gives Charlotte the space to make her own rational choice without judgement.

@nidhird 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte acted in a very rational manner. She is not hasty in judging Mr Collins and makes a thorough assessment of his character and position before accepting his offer. Her outlook is realistic and prudent. She doesn’t want to continue being a liability for her parents and wants a home of her own. I don’t think she thought Mr Collins’ mannerisms all that foolish as Lizzie does, and maybe she’s used to such behaviour as Sir Lucas is like Mr Collins in many ways.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

A great point about Mr Collins potentially being like Sir William Lucas - they do both put their foot in it repeatedly after all!

@kayfountain6261 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox Charlotte has had a lifetime of practise in learning to deal with her father's silliness. Given Collins does appear to fall in love with his wife (or at least admire her) after their marriage, might she then be able to mold his manners into something more amenable?

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

I definitely think that's the implication, yes. And Charlotte seems to be well on the way to moulding her husband into something more palatable to her when we see her at home at Hunsford Parsonage. Perhaps Charlotte Collins's life might be rather like Lady Elliot's in _Persuasion_ : "She had humoured, or softened, or concealed his failings [her husband's], and promoted his real respectability for seventeen years; and though not the very happiest being in the world herself, had found enough in her duties, her friends, and her children, to attach her to life" (ch.1)

@yezdnil 3 жыл бұрын

I think we should also consider Austen's own personal circumstances. She had a lot in common with both Charlotte Lucas and Miss Bates: a single, middle-class woman, reliant on a rather financially strained (irresponsible?) father then on the generosity of her brothers. I think Austen worked out her own personal narrative (demons?) in Charlotte, Miss Bates and other characters. They are the cold-water-in-the-face of her novels. Basically, reality vs. the Cinderella fantasy of characters such as Elizabeth and Jane. And Charlotte did make a good match, under her own terms. I can never understand why people think Austen is a cosy author. I suspect many have seen the romanticised films/TV series but not read the actual novels.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

I agree - and I think that 'cold-water-in-the-face' element is a really important part of the novels that is often overlooked. On the one hand we have the heroines and heroes, who we know, in conventional novelistic fashion, will hasten together to perfect felicity. But in all the novels we have other characters (e.g. Mrs Smith in 'Persuasion', or Charlotte Lucas or Miss Bates as you say) whose life hasn't turned out as though they were the heroine in a novel. But whose lives Austen's clearly thinks are important to represent. Austen seems to play with this especially in Anne Elliot in 'Persuasion', who seems to have missed her chance at being a 'heroine'.

@KLKarin-bu2vu 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox In that context I wonder about Jane Austen's own brief engagement. I always thought she may have felt that, like Charlotte, she needed a "preservative from want" at that point in her life. To relieve her brothers of the apprehension of her dying an old maid, als she put it in Charlotte's case. It must have been very painful for her (and her family) to break off the engagement. I wonder what gave her the courage to do so - and I like to think that it was possibly knowing that she could not be free to write what she wanted and publish her novels once she was married. Her husband could forbid her to publish novels, or take her money, or maybe insist on influencing/approving her stories before publication.

@mikanchan322 2 жыл бұрын

I've read the book, and I still find it cozy and comforting. These womens' circumstances are not ideal, but they still live a tolerably comfortable and happy life. I think thats encouraging, in a way.

@bweresquirrel8279 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte's decision to seek time apart from her husband within their house parallel's Mr. Bennet's habit of seeking refuge in his library: tolerable marriage with a mismatched spouse requires a private room. That contrasts with Betty Friedan's critique of post-WWII open plan architectural fashion: "It's strange how few places there are in those spacious houses and those sprawling suburbs where you can go to be alone." We may have abandoned one of the few domestic advantages Charlotte enjoyed.

@jillbeifuss7428 3 жыл бұрын

Interesting point! Though Mr. Collins's letter to Mr. Bennet at the end of the novel, announcing the imminent arrival of a "young olive branch," reminds us that there is at least one room in which Charlotte cannot avoid Mr. Collins.

@KLKarin-bu2vu 3 жыл бұрын

@@jillbeifuss7428 I would think Charlotte wants children, or at the very least understands she needs to have them. Mr Collins will probably need a male heir, if I understand entails correctly. Without a son, she'll end up dependent on her brothers once again after her husband's death. So avoiding him altogether isn't an option until she's produced at least one son.

@jmarie9997 3 жыл бұрын

@@KLKarin-bu2vu The heir and the spare, at least.

@doveandpatch 2 жыл бұрын

Even in a happy marriage one requires a place or a way to be alone in your head and heart. Can quadruple that need in a business arrangement/pragmatic or ill-suited marriage like these.

@lenusniq_9746 3 жыл бұрын

First time I read Pride and Prejudice, I was 19, my head was full of "romanticized ideas of love from rom-coms, I fully agreed with Lizzie's sentiment, and I kinda looked down at Charlotte's choice. Upon second reading (when I was 29), my opinions changed. Charlotte considered all the pros and cons taking into consideration also super limited choices of women at that time, and did the best move that she could do with the cards that she had been dealt.

@paulaschroen3954 3 жыл бұрын

I found my own marriage very romantic, by my own standards, and after many years and experiences, though did continue to love my husband, their were times when I thought Charlotte's choice was not so terribly off the grid. Not only because of the serious deprivation of possibly becoming a poor relation maintained on suffering, as in "old days", but having seen people marry , then ultimately not being as kind to a initially romantic loved partner, unable to be as kind as they would be to a pet animal.

@alisaoliver1969 2 жыл бұрын

Charlotte was a realist before the term was invented.

@edpistemic 2 жыл бұрын

Charlotte represents reality whereas Lizzie is fiction.

@annfirth4225 3 жыл бұрын

"... that his attachment to her must be imaginary." Charlotte will not try to persuade herself this is romantic love. It is a safe relationship in the transactional nature and to consider it otherwise would be emotionally harmful.

@apostrophe.t 3 жыл бұрын

Yes; he isn't abusive nor does he have any harmful habits. He's annoying, but Charlotte expertly navigates this. She knew she wasn't marrying for love; this was a union that would be mutually beneficial. Charlotte was 27 years old, not terribly attractive, and Mr. Collins isn''t a terrible choice. She could have done worse, for sure. ;)

@gisawslonim9716 2 жыл бұрын

And since in Jane Austen's days marriages were usually arranged it was not unusual for a woman to be married to someone she was not in love with...as long as he could provide a reasonable lifestyle for her and protect her, for an unmarried woman was a burden on the family and often ended up as a drudge, doing baby sitting and various menial jobs in order to keep the family's protection.

@boudicca272 3 жыл бұрын

I think in a way Charlotte is an unsung hero in her own right. She exemplifies empowerment within her very limited options at life. She decides. I also believe that Charlotte's character is critical to hold a mirror up to Lizzie & force her to be more mature & self-aware. When Charlotte defends her decision to Lizzie it exposes some of Lizzie's, at times, self pre-occupation & forces Lizzie to begin to see that there MAY be more facets of individuals than that of what's on the surface. Without Lizzie's maturation & development from the education of Charlotte's experience, she may have never attempted to see Darcy in a different light. I think Charlotte was a very empowered woman within the limitations of her life. Ty for such intellectually stimulating discourse.

@robinlillian9471 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte was older and not as pretty as Lizzy. She probably figured she could do a lot worse and didn't want to spend the rest of her life on her parents' or other relatives' charity. That can be pretty unpleasant, too. It might have been her last chance at matrimony. He was a fool but not vicious.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Indeed Robin. Charlotte does not see herself as having a plethora of options, and she decides to take the option of marrying Mr Collins, in part, as you say, to escape becoming an "old maid" reliant on her brothers' financial support. My point in the video was to suggest that the narrative voice does not condemn Charlotte for this choice in the way that Lizzy does.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

And I agree with you about Mr Collins not being vicious. Not ideal, obviously, but not a _bad_ man. The text does not suggest that he will mistreat Charlotte. Much worse would be a man, for instance, like General Tilney ( in _Northanger Abbey_ ).

@thesisypheanjournal1271 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte managed things with Mr. Collins as well as could be expected. Frankly, I considered Lady Catherine to be much more difficult to cope with than Mr. Collins because he could be got rid of for a few hours and would let Charlotte decide how to manage the hosuehold whereas Lady Catherine could barge in at any time and throw a monkey wrench into things.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

A good point! - and, yes, I to imagine that Lady Catherine would involve much more 'management' from Charlotte. Clearly Charlotte is alive to negotiating their relationship, though, as we learn that it was her who thought it best that they visit her parents when news broke of Darcy's and Lizzy's engagement. Canny Charlotte... "Before any answer could arrive from Mr. Collins, or any congratulations to Elizabeth from his wife, the Longbourn family heard that the Collinses were come themselves to Lucas Lodge. The reason of this sudden removal was soon evident. Lady Catherine had been rendered so exceedingly angry by the contents of her nephew’s letter, that Charlotte, really rejoicing in the match, was anxious to get away till the storm was blown over." (ch.60)

@bjetkabathory5185 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox Yes. Eg Wickham would make a rather worse husband than Mr Collins. Charlotte would be much happier after 20 married years than Lydia ;-)

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

I also think it's rather admirable that Charlotte isn't bitter about this exchange, and doesn't burn her bridges with Lizzy either. We are later told that, despite the way that Lizzy talks to her here, Charlotte "really rejoic[ed] in the match" between Lizzy and Darcy (ch.60).

@rosemarie5489 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte wanted Lizzy to have a good, loving husband. We can see it when she was hopping for Lizzy to marry the rich Colonel Fitzgerald (she saw him as a good guy and that is enough to understand that she wanted a good guy for her friend), in addition to the joy she felt for the even better match between Lizzy and Darcy.

@srkh8966 3 жыл бұрын

But who snitched to Lady Catherine, then?

@vilwarin5635 3 жыл бұрын

@@srkh8966 the Bingleys or Georgiana (without bad intention) . She would writte something like "dear aunt, today we had some lovely guests, a Elisabeth bennet and her aunt&uncle. I like her very much, and my brother seems to be very nice to her too".

@ClaudiaPicciani 3 жыл бұрын

@@srkh8966 mr Collins was it i think. At least its somehow assumed as lizzy is wondering about the Same thing. She comes to the conclusion that, sincd mr darcy is a good friend of mr bingley and she being the sister of Jane people will, in high Spirits will expect another marriage. (I have the feeling i plagiorised some of that partikular sentence) Lizzy assumes the Lukases Write to Charlotte and mr collins about and mr Collins then tells Lady Catherine. Oh actually i just remember mr collins writes a letter to mr Bennett wherin he admits to Telling Lady Catherine :) of course that letter arrives After All the Drama went down, but mr bennet knows nothing about the second proposol and teases lizzy with it. Sorry for mistakes, my autocorrect wants to make everything german and i hate it but am to lazy to change some things 😅

@travisstoll3582 3 жыл бұрын

I think Charlotte is objective because she doesn't have emotions for her husband. Without an emotional attachment, she is less likely to be affronted.

@katm8036 3 жыл бұрын

I find it interesting how the novel contrasts the problems caused by marrying a silly wife in haste (such as Mrs Bennet and her profligacy and lack of social graces) with the benefits of marrying a silly man! How strange that at that time, Charlotte Lucas was doing a sensible, practical thing and avoiding the dreadful fate of spinsterhood, while marrying a woman with a lack of sense seems to be presented as a bad call. Interesting video, thank you.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it exposes the inequalities inherent within the social system.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

My pleasure Kat. Much appreciated. And thanks for watching. Octavia

@rachelgarber1423 3 жыл бұрын

I think it’s because for a man it may be a reflection on his judgment. People can see that he only married her for her looks. He certainly would not have married a plain looking silly woman

@tatiananagumo1962 3 жыл бұрын

@@rachelgarber1423 There are such cases two (sencible man marrying silly and not good looking woman) - remember Mr and Mrs Allen in Northanger Abbey? :)

@NC-ij9rb 3 жыл бұрын

Well, a silly man can have money while a silly woman cannot. There’s little to no incentive to put up with a silly wife. 😂😂😂 Fortunately things are different nowadays.

@Draconisrex1 3 жыл бұрын

People who don't live in rural areas tend to not understand the concept of 'limited prospects.' And, having lived my teenage and some of my mid- 20s in the country, they are truly limited. So you settle. So Charlotte, who is approaching spinsterhood and has no real prospects where she lives, leads Mr. Collins by the nose and makes him think he's the one with agency even though it was Charlotte who actually had the greater agency.

@EmoBearRights 3 жыл бұрын

It's a big reason why I don't like the Joe Wright film is that it misrepresents and sidelines Charlotte. I like how Charlotte makes the best of a not ideal situation and her unsentimental even ruthless pragmatism.

@deefee701 2 жыл бұрын

That's the 2005 Keira Knightley one. Yes, I agree.

@jenniehughes7388 3 жыл бұрын

Do you agree that the contempt with which Mr Bennet and his daughters regard Mr Collins is not quite fair? He’s an irritating young man, but he isn’t the middle aged idiot he’s portrayed as in most dramatisations: he’s young, possibly naive, socially out of his depth and lacking a sensible parent figure to guide him. And importantly, he is trying to ‘do the right thing’ by this family. He stands to inherit the estate, leaving the daughters impoverished. You could say it’s honourable of him to feel he should marry one of them, especially as this suggests he’d be willing to take some responsibility for supporting their mother and any unmarried sisters too, after Mr Bennett’s death. He might be silly, but he behaves with a higher sense of duty and responsibility than does Mr Bennet, who feels so free to ridicule and despise him. Would be very interested in Your take on this.

@irishlady5051 2 жыл бұрын

Well said. An interesting point of view.

@ello_verity7667 2 жыл бұрын

This is a take I hadn’t fully considered before, and a good point!

@thelmadickinson6811 Жыл бұрын

I always thought he chose to pursue the Bennet girls because of his social awkwardness and being the heir of their estate, they would be more beholden to him when he proposed. Back in that day, men of any standing were likely not turned down after proposals. That’s why his excuse that young women are in the habit of refusals in the beginning is showing how much more ridiculous he is.

@SJRD18 Жыл бұрын

Well said! I agree. A++++

@ununhexium 9 ай бұрын

I made this argument to a friend and they said it is clear that Mr. Collins finds only the most reasonable/easy way to fulfill Lady Catherine's wish for him to find a gentlewoman wife immediately.

@judyjacobson1583 3 жыл бұрын

Something missed in Charlotte engaging herself to Collins..... Charlotte will inherit Longbourne with Mr. Collins when Mr. Bennett passes. She would protect the Bennett’s from destitution if that had been how things turned out in the end. Lizzie at that point should be happy that Charlotte would be there to protect their interests after Collins took what was entailed to him.)

@lizziebkennedy7505 3 жыл бұрын

I read some fan fiction where Collins had died, Charlotte had inherited from him, and only Fanny Bennet and Mary were still at LB, as Kitty had married an officer introduced to her by Colonel Fitzwilliam. Charlotte lived with the Bennet ladies and runs Longbourn. It was fun, but of course we are pragmatists and know it is fiction.

@wordforger 2 жыл бұрын

She eventually sees this, I believe, even if she was furious initially.

@kimquinn7728 3 жыл бұрын

One part of the book that I have always loved was the final chapter(s). After the weddings of Lizzie and Jane, it is the description of how they all adapt. What becomes of Lydia and Wickham, , Darcy's softening to a degree toward Mrs. Bennet. How he would shake his shoulders but that was so much better than previous. How lydia would seek out financial ease from Lizzie and Darcy; Jane and Bingley. That Kitty was kept away much more from Lydia and gradually she improved. Her fathers delight in Darcy. These small vignettes I would love to see, instead of just the weddings.

@louisegogel7973 Жыл бұрын

I am totally with you there!

@e.s.r5809 3 жыл бұрын

I think it's important to note that "women couldn't work" only went for upper class women. Poor women have always worked, often in hard labour, but sometimes were quite successful businesswomen-- and could marry for love, because if they were going to be working until their dying day anyway (probable) then a husband who could financially support them wouldn't matter as much. However, Charlotte is a part of the upper class. She has no such skills, and besides, it would be scandalous for her to take a job in labour. She might also simply consider it beneath her dignity.

@baerlauchstal 3 жыл бұрын

Well, not the upper class exactly, is the thing. The Lucases, like the Bennets, are gentry, rather than out-and-out bluebloods. That's exactly what makes their position so precarious.

@lizziebkennedy7505 3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it's a broad and laden term, lady. So many things you must, and could not, do.

@glendodds3824 2 жыл бұрын

Phil Ramsden. Hi. Some of the gentry were newcomers to high society (as was true of the Lucases and Mrs Bennet) but others were truly upper-class and their social position was assured because many of the gentry owned substantial estates which had been in their families for generations. Moreover, in Pride and Prejudice Mr Darcy and Sir Lewis de Bourgh are examples of very rich gentry who belong to ancient landed families.

@operacat1 Жыл бұрын

And we can contrast this with the situation of Jane Fairfax in EMMA, who IS expected to earn a living.

@LizMason-girvan 8 ай бұрын

Teaching in a girls boarding school, governessing or "poor relation/paid companion" were pretty much the only options for unmarried impoverished gentlewomen to support themselves.

@Nanenna 3 жыл бұрын

You say Charlotte Lucas isn't necessary for the plot, but one of the things I've always admired about PnP is just how necessary all of the characters actually are to the plot. Sure some like the Lucasses and Mr. Collins and the Gardiners seems like they're just there to fill out the world and to be there for Lizzy to stand out against, but they do serve the narrative. Without Charlotte what reason does Lizzy have to go visit Lady Catherine de Bourgh and have that first proposal from Mr. Darcy? Without the Gardiners what reason would Lizzy have to go to Pemberley? Everyone with a name helps drive the plot, all their little side stories are necessary and tie back into the main plot. It's a thing of beauty! But also it makes movie adaptations a nightmare because there's so much content and trying to cut any of it makes the whole story fall apart.

@katerina1064 3 жыл бұрын

It's important to keep in mind that an unmarried 27-year-old would be considered a spinster or "a lost cause" at the time. Collins really is her best option, as it doesn't seem like the Lucases have any sons either. He is slimy and irksome, but as Jane points out to Lizzie - he is not vicious and has a good situation in life. Spinsters like Charlotte would either end up living at their family's mercy (Sense and Sensibility shows very clearly why that could be difficult) or marry someone "disagreeable" and potentially live in conjugal misery. Charlotte is not dumb at all. Awkward and slimy husband, who is kind and takes pleasure is showering her with affection (even if said affection is well rehearsed beforehand), and on top of that has good financial prospects ahead of him, is really a great opportunity for her. And in those times, definitely worth dealing with Collins's weirdness and Lady Catherine's nonsense. Charlotte's marriage to Collins also raises her sister's "fortunes", as it is indirectly implied by Sir William, when he says in the carriage "what great alliance your sister has made". Charlotte is securing a good life for herself, her sister and potentially her mother, should Sir William pass away before her. She's very smart. EDIT: Lucases have some sons, as it was kindly pointed out in the comments. My bad :)

@lilagtook 3 жыл бұрын

In chapter 22 when discussing the Lucas’s reactions to Mr. Collin’s proposal the narrator says “the boys were relieved from their apprehension of Charlotte’s dying an old maid.” So we know that there are at least two sons.

@sArnoldsdotter 3 жыл бұрын

@@lilagtook And Mrs Bennet has a long argument with "a young Lucas" about him dreaming of drinking a good deal to much if he was as rich as Mr Darcy. The presence of sons is mentioned repeatedly.

@katerina1064 3 жыл бұрын

@@sArnoldsdotter My bad. Still, sir William's comment implies that Charlotte's choice has made a difference to her family in some way. Any ideas how? Maybe exposure of her family to the fancier society away from Longbourne?

@katerina1064 3 жыл бұрын

@@lilagtook I wonder whether apprehension means that they worried for her wellbeing or the fact that she'd be their responsibility. If the latter, it would explain why Charlotte literally took the first opportunity out.

@mtngrl5859 3 жыл бұрын

The age of 27 is a theme in Jane Austen as a sign of last chances. Jane was briefly engaged at 27 ( like 1 day before she came to her senses) and of course Anne Elliot in Persuasion.

@effie358 3 жыл бұрын

One of the things I love most about Jane Austen, is how she gives us just enough when it comes to her characters, to make them feel like real people, and make us feel strongly about them, but not too much to make them absolutely obvious, this gives us all so much freedom to filter them through our own lenses, shaped by our own lives and experiences, with people we met. For instance, I have a very soft spot for Kitty Bennet, which is basically a not character in the book, but we still know enough about her and her situation, to make up what she might feel and go through, and care about her, I have read the most loving things about Mary Bennet too, and she's not very present either. I love how real and personal Jane Austen's characters have the power to feel, no matter how little we are given to work with

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

I agree - Austen is so, so brilliant at getting to the nub of a character despite only revealing a few key details and letting the reader fill in the rest. I think it might be this that makes Janites so committed.

@effie358 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox She is outstanding! She speaks to different people in different ways. I know I have drastically changed my view on some characters after re-reading some of the books (and noticing things I didn't before), both due to knowing more this time, and for being older now.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

This is absolutely one of my favourite things about re-reading Austen!

@lananieves4595 3 жыл бұрын

I actually quite respect Charlotte for examining her very few options and making the choice which will, if nothing else, afford her security. Women could not automatically expect that, and Charlotte is fully aware that she's not remarkable enough a woman to throw caution to the wind in the hopes that true love (which, honestly, wasn't even a THING) will be her salvation. She knows what she's signed on for and, at the end of the day, she's able to appreciate that she's made the choice that not only will give her the best and most secure life, but also with a man (Collins) who is far from the worst a woman could do. He's no knight in shining armor, but he not a monster. He'll be decent to her. He'll support her and any children they may have. He's respectable and, in turn, marriage to him will maintain HER respectability.

@BigDog366 3 жыл бұрын

I'm always happy with Charlotte's choice when we discover she's pregnant by the time Lizzie visits. I can see her the doting, sensible mother of a brood of children in a pretty house with servants. She will be the center of her children's lives, and at the top of the society in the village. Yes, she's got to put up with Mr Collins, but I'd put up with a lot more for that life. Mr Collins is obnoxious but (as Jane Austen points out), he's not vicious. Imagine being poor Lydia, in contrast. Mrs Collins any day over being Mrs Wickham.

@babasteTe Жыл бұрын

i've read the book and seen the P&P 2005 movie several times, but never noticed Charlottr being pregnant at any time

@debbiericker8223 Жыл бұрын

@@babasteTe There was no indication in the novel that Charlotte was pregnant when Lizzy, Sir William Lucas, and Mariah visited her. It wasn't until Chapter 57 when Mr. Collins wrote to Mr. Bennett warning of Lady Catherine's displeasure over the rumor that Darcy and Lizzie were engaged. In that letter he mentioned his dear Charlotte's "situation" and the "expectation of a young olive branch" (a child). That's the only reference to Charlotte's being pregnant in the novel.

@ac1646 Жыл бұрын

@@debbiericker8223 There only needs to be one! 😁 I've re-read the book within the last week (having read it in my teens) and the line you quote above JUMPED out at me and I understood it immediately. TBF there were many many instances of me instantly understanding a lot I'd missed in my teens, but I think a lot of us can claim that. 😉

@debbiericker8223 Жыл бұрын

@@ac1646I've enjoyed carefully rereading the novels in recent years, too. There's SO much misinformation (😂) in the movie versions, and I like clearing that out of my mind.

@alicemerray Жыл бұрын

@@ac1646 An Elsie J Oxenham book I read (one of the Abbey series, written early 20th century) is even more coy about it. A character returns from abroad, having been widowed. She's said to be tired, but she's just had a long journey. When she opens her coat, another character's eyes widen, then a chapter or so later there's a baby. I read the book more than once before I spotted that the bit with the coat, which I'd barely registered, was supposed to be my clue! :)

@trucelt01 3 жыл бұрын

I have always thought that Mr. Collin's soul mate should have been Mary Bennet. They are almost the same character, in the male and female types. Had the two married, however, they'd have been an absolute disaster. Their mutual agreement would have sunk them in a morass of pedantic discourse and social judgement. They'd soon have escalated to such a level of obnoxiousness that they'd have found themselves without any friends whatsoever. It's also likely that neither of them had any real idea of how to run a household. This is what I love about Austen's work, the way it makes me think through the basics of human character and how personalities encourage or restrain each other.

@TaxTheChurches. 3 жыл бұрын

I think if they had married, Mary and Mr. Collins would have spent every moment in bed reading the dirty parts of the Bible, and Mary would have given birth to a score of children. A brace of children?

@SJRD18 Жыл бұрын

What? No. That would be a disaster. Mary thinks she's better than Mr. Collins. She would correct him -- he would hate that.. He needs someone to manage him as Charlotte can. Mary is too young and not smart enough. Look what JA says, "Mary might have been prevailed on to accept him. She rated his abilities much higher than any of the others; there was a solidity in his reflections which often struck her, and though by no means so clever as herself, she thought that if encouraged to read and improve himself by such an example as hers, he might become a very agreeable companion."

@LizMason-girvan 8 ай бұрын

You've convinced me! I used to think they would have been happy together. But you're quite right. Charlotte is a much better choice for him, for the sake of all 3's future happiness.

@meggarstang6761 3 жыл бұрын

This channel is pure heaven. I could listen to discussions of literature for hours.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the compliment, Meg. Octavia

@scottlang7271 3 жыл бұрын

I wonder if Charlotte views Mr. Collins not only as a meal ticket, but that she also has the kindness to look below the surface and to wonder why he is so arrogant, pompous and socially inept. I forget the original text, but I get the impression he hasn't had an easy time growing up. We also now know that (generally speaking) male brains develop more slowly than female ones, especially in regards to social skills. If that is true, and we add it to the very stilted and polite social manners of upper class Georgian England, I think it likely that nobody has ever cared enough about Collins to either gently or otherwise point out to him the impression he makes upon others. Instead, they likely avoid him when they can, and simply tolerate him when necessary. We don't see the conversation in which Charlotte listens to him (wouldn't it be fascinating!), but her very willingness to give him her full attention and to show real interest, (rather than feigned politeness) is enough for him to forget that she is neither pretty nor young. On her side, I think she might look at him as something like a potential housing renovation; there is a lot of work to be done, but the bones are there - he is something she can work with. And she hears enough to decide he is worth the risk. Beyond that, I can see Charlotte mostly giving him gentle encouragement when he gets the social code right - but also making him very much aware (in private) when he has embarrassed her. It doesn't show up in the novel, but I think we'd see a much better version of Mr. Collins appearing 5 years later due to Charlotte's calm and patient love and attention.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Ha! - that's a great analogy. Yes, I think Charlotte might well see him in those terms (like a housing renovation). It's clear from the novel that Charlotte is quietly managing the Collins household after their marriage. And I think you're right - Charlotte is patient and shrewd, and is aware that her project is a long term one!

@Beruthiel45 3 жыл бұрын

Excellent points. Neither Charlotte nor Mr Collins are mean spirited so they might do very well together. Add to the fact that in their future is the ownership of Longbourne and security with no need of Darcy's aunt's patronage, and, proximity to her parents for Charlotte, one might surmise that their marriage might be quite successfull and satisfying in terms of the times. 😊

@kmaher1424 3 жыл бұрын

In America, we would say that Charlotte saw Mr Collins as a fixer upper.

@bodnica 3 жыл бұрын

Typical male attitude

@Nanenna 3 жыл бұрын

You make a very good point. Very likely his experience up until now has been very similar to what we actually saw in the book: people smiling and nodding and seemingly agreeing with him while laughing at him behind his back. Lizzy and Mr. Bennet mock him when he is not in ear shot, but neither tell him gently or even ungently to his face that what he is doing is any way socially unacceptable. To him it is nothing but approval and agreement all around.

@rosariocastro6386 3 жыл бұрын

I think Austen's protagonists are a reflection of the more romantic parts of Jane Austen, but she was an intelligent woman, very much aware of her society and the rules of it. Charlotte is perhaps a reflection of a pragmatic, and rational choice than she sometimes must have felt, she should have taken, given the financial struggles she herself had to face, because she had remained single. I think that is why, Charlotte's choice is portrait as practical in the narrative; for me at least, Lizzy was always the one that - at THAT moment - appeared more irrational or at least biased. We are given both Charlotte's and Lizzy's views on the subject of Charlotte's prospective husband, but you are correct when you state that we do see that Charlotte is content with her life and her decision.

@altarush 3 жыл бұрын

Actually, Mister Collins was the lucky 🍀 one to me since Liz would have fought with his rich patron , Lady Catherine.

@lizziebkennedy7505 3 жыл бұрын

Poor Lizzie would have died inside.

@OurRosewoodTV 3 жыл бұрын

' .... that that "must" must be Charlotte's "must"' - my favorite of your phrasings!

@abacoejenks 3 жыл бұрын

This moment between Lizzie and Charlotte really shows their age difference. Is it possible that Charlotte was once romantic like Lizzie and settled? Is this possibly why Lizzie mistook their POVs as more akin? Bc by the time Charlotte is 27, she defends herself with "all I've ever wanted was this comfort". yet she claims there is more love with Collins than she ever imagined. I suppose Lizzie wasn't as close to Charlotte as she thought.

@korab.23 2 жыл бұрын

There could also be a difference between Collins public and private persona. It's possible she found redeeming qualities in him. Perhaps thoughtful little gifts or observations of his wife that increased her regard for him. She did well in her expectations of him. She had no illusions of who he was but it is possible there was something hidden or that she was able to encourage in him.

@Historian212 3 жыл бұрын

It's an interesting thought by Lizzy that Charlotte had chosen a lot at all, when it appears as though Charlotte, in fact, had little choice available to her. Indeed, from Charlotte's POV -- and likely the reality -- Mr. Collins was Charlotte's last (and maybe only) chance to attain what would have been considered a respectable life, going forward. Therefore, there was but one acceptable lot, and Charlotte took it.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Indeed! Lizzy says, judgementally, that Charlotte had "sacrificed every better feeling to worldly advantage" (ch.22). But it isn't "worldly advantage" that she wants, it is, in Charlotte's words, a "home" that she wants - in other words, she wants security. And Charlotte "felt all the good luck of" having "obtained" a "preservative from want [need]" (ch.22).

@carlajenkins1990 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte is the finest wife in the world. She is just what Mr. Collins NEEDS! Calm and quiet and capable. She looks out for him and protects his interests. Women should be more concerned about the kind of wife she is to him and less to her own judgment of her intended'. "When you look for someone else's faults, you will be sure to find them."

@tarshep3957 3 жыл бұрын

@@carlajenkins1990 Indeed! What perspicacious observations you make, so unlike most made by modern women. Look at the usual sub-titles to women of today, "single mother of X children," the mark of failed womanhood, a damning testament to a woman's failure in her fundamental role in life, the successful propagation of the species, having brought children into the world focusing on her own "brilliant career" rather than the more important, indeed seminal, purpose of raising the next generation, maintaining a home for those children. Fortunately, women of today do have the advantage of many more choices (however poorly they seem to exercise them). Since the horrendous rise of child pollution, rising to over 7 billion in overpopulation since the end of WWII, driving every modern ill from global warming to species extinction to global poverty and lack of jobs, not to mention damaged children of divorce, there really is no reason for a woman to procreate in today's world. She can pursue whatever career she wants, selfishly fulfilled in her brilliant career without damaging the children she didn't produce. The women's movement is the most misandrous philosophy in history, oblivious of the female responsibilities in the basic biological units and virtually oblivious to the role of the male and the masculine life.

@ZacharyDBrooks 3 жыл бұрын

Anyone that is too hard to Charlotte should get to know more married couples. I know plenty of happy-enough couples who end up basically being roommates who are married, and that is exactly how I would describe the settlement between Mr. and Mrs. Collins.

@rachelgarber1423 3 жыл бұрын

I think she was a bit older, has not had many or any proposals, she knew Mr. Collins might be her last chance to secure her future

@amherst88 3 жыл бұрын

Bravo! Have loved Austen for many years (and studied her in Grad school as well) and very much appreciate your perspective -- keep going ❤️

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the encouragement! I'm glad you enjoy my videos and analysis. Octavia

@sharongelfand5065 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox love your analyses. BTW I think it's a dash, not a hyphen in this case.

@zillie8167 3 жыл бұрын

We are never encouraged - and I never did - wonder about how Charlotte feels about Lizzie. Charlotte is friends with someone who is much younger than her, much prettier and much quicker and wittier. It's a wonder she didn't detest Elizabeth. We can only guess at how many times she rolled her eyes and looked to the heavens when Lizzie kept banging on about only being induced into matrimony by the deepest love and thought 'just wait, you'll learn!' (Don't get me wrong - I love Lizzie - she's one of my favourite characters in all literature)

@alisaoliver1969 2 жыл бұрын

My thought is they were friends because they recognized each other's differences and respected them. I have friends who are a lot more outgoing than I am because I am somewhat reserved, but I gravitate toward them because they make me laugh out loud. I am the sensible one, they are the silly but fun ones, and it all works out. The same with Lizzie and Charlotte. We are all different, especially when it comes to our personal decisions, as Lizzie and Charlotte illustrated.

@HotVoodooWitch 3 жыл бұрын

I think one of the reasons I like Charlotte is that I've long held the opinion that marriage is a contract and that people marry for all kinds of reasons, e.g. reasons of state, companionship, convenience, money, et al., as well as for romantic love. If both parties are okay with the terms of their marriage, no matter how non-standard they may seem to outsiders, who are the outsiders to judge? Charlotte is smart and recognizes in a flash from her window that she can manipulate Mr. Collins to conform to her needs while keeping up her end of the matrimonial bargain. She's a tough cookie who never bemoans the hand life has dealt her, playing it to her advantage when the opportunity arises. "You snooze, you lose" definitely does NOT apply to Charlotte!

@ultramarinetoo 3 жыл бұрын

I think you're not being entirely fair on Lizzie here. Not only is she young and impetuous, but her strong emotional response to Charlotte's engagement is at least in part due to the fear of/ narrow escape from being forced into marrying someone she found obnoxious - irl she very likely would have been forced by her family to marry him, indeed, to accept him when he first asked. And lacking Charlottes quiet wisdom she *would* have found it impossible to be tolerably happy with him. Secondly Lizzie realises she has hurt / wronged her friend with her response, and tries to make amends later - I love her later determination to "mention nothing that she cannot praise" when she goes to visit. I also wouldn't say that Charlotte manipulates Collins, she guides him yes, but he acquiesces into her guidance (at least that is how I remember it). I like the idea later that Charlotte was one of the few sensible women who would have accepted him, or made him happy if she did. And however the arrangement with Collins works, one does wonder whether in the counterfactual (counterfictional?) her humility, wisdom, and kindness might not have found her a happier match once her two best friends had married wealthy men. Colonel Whatsit, perhaps?

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

You make some really excellent points here. Lizzy is young and impetuous, and I think the narrative voice shows us that in her response to Charlotte, and at the same time gives Charlotte the narrative space to explain herself. Re. Charlotte and Colonel Fitzwilliam - he tells Lizzy that he will marry a woman with money, so I think Charlotte, like Lizzy, would be out of the picture. He says: "I speak feelingly. A younger son, you know, must be inured to self-denial and dependence... I may suffer from want of money. Younger sons cannot marry where they like" (ch.33).

@SouthCountyGal 3 жыл бұрын

I think Lizzy projects her own dislike of Mr. Collins onto Charlotte. Knowing how much she would hate being married to a windbag with no sense of humor, she assumes her friend will be equally miserable. I love the ways in which Charlotte reminds her that they are different people in different circumstances, and assures her that she is entering the marriage with eyes wide open.

@jmmcgee3509 3 жыл бұрын

The problem I have with Charlotte’s choice, which is what everyone seems to forget, is that he was the heir to Longbourne. Charlotte was in a literal sense, going to take Lizzie’s home, eventually. Without marriage, Lizzie would be only a poor relation. There’s a kind of sneakiness in it. A different woman, a real friend, would have at least told Lizzie beforehand, asked her “permission “ so to speak. To me, this is part of why Lizzie thinks she can never have the same opinion of Charlotte. And Austen has Lizzie notice some additional self interest on the part of the Collinses’ spending so much time with Lady Catherine: there might be “other family livings to be disposed of” (given out.). Otherwise I would understand Charlotte ‘s businesslike choice.

@SouthCountyGal 3 жыл бұрын

@@jmmcgee3509 But she didn't make her move until Lizzy rejected Mr. Collins, and it was clear that he wasn't proposing to any of the remaining sisters. Maybe Charlotte could have asked Lizzy first whether she minded, but I think she took the opportunity when it was presented.

@jmarie9997 3 жыл бұрын

@@jmmcgee3509 Well, SOMEONE was going to marry Collins and potentially become mistress of Longbourn.

@stefaniejohnson29 3 жыл бұрын

I love Charlotte Lucas as a character. She takes control of her life in the way she is able to. I also like the contrast between Lizzie's initial response to the engagement and her response to the marriage arrangement. She is beginning to allow for differences in temper, Lizzie still wouldn't have married Mr. Collins, but can see why her friend made a different choice.

@Grabfma040508 3 жыл бұрын

In the book we must remember Mr. Collins is only 25? How many men of 25 have a lot of experience proposing marriage . Miss Lucas is 27 (an old maid ) and knows she can get Mr. Lucas to think it is his idea to propose . . It is a very smart move on her part to gain a way not to be a burden .

@namewitheld2568 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte is there as a foil to the other characters who get to marry for both love and money. Charlotte lets the reader understand the grave nature of the situation in which the Bennett sisters find themselves. Charlotte is 27, older than Lizzie, and understands that she can be tossed out into the streets if a male relative will not care for her. This is the fate that potentially awaits the Bennett girls. I have always felt Elizabeth's response to Charlotte incorporates that. The fear that this could ultimately be her fate should she fail to find a love match.

@fizzao1342 3 жыл бұрын

I find it very interesting that Charlotte Lucas contemplates a marriage that Jane Austen did not. The younger, wealthy Harris Bigg Wither proposed to Jane at a ball at his house. She accepted but thought better of it overnight and left the house. It would have secured her own future and perhaps that of her mother and sister but she would have lost her independence and perhaps her life in childbirth. Pride and Prejudice was written after this experience. However Charlotte Lucas is not Jane Austen.

@paulaschroen3954 3 жыл бұрын

Also enjoy the many comments.

@sorettaray8829 3 жыл бұрын

I've always thought that Charlotte made an incredibly logical and intelligent decision in setting about to marry Mr Collins. He's an absolutely ridiculous character, to be sure, but he's not violent and can provide her with a stable home. Charlotte also has the ability to manipulate Mr Collins into staying away from her as much as possible and he doesn't even notice. So, all in all, she improved her lot from what it was at the beginning of the novel. Plus, eventually she'll get to move into Longbourn and be back home essentially and assuming the child she was expecting towards the end of the book is a boy, the estate will pass to her son.

@catherinesanchez1185 2 жыл бұрын

Remember Janes comment about Mr Collins not being vicious . Fear of ending up with a drunken violent lout was a real thing then as it is now and divorce was off the table . As annoying as he was, Charlotte would be assured of no mistreatment from him which was a big deal back then .

@Randomnamepoop 3 жыл бұрын

Now that you mention it, I find it rather amazing that lizzie feels that Charlotte has fallen in her esteem because she married for reasons other than love, but she was fine with Mr Wickham marrying for money when he Turned his attention to Mary Kings fortune. And Mr Collins I'm sure had nowhere near £10,000. Mr Wickham is in a position to earn money of his own whereas Charlottes only hopes of a comfortable future are through marriage.

@reginadoran6980 3 жыл бұрын

Is it disagreeable to be the wife of Mr Collins? Yes. Is it less disagreeable than being a poor old maid? Most definitely. Charlotte is pragmatic and rational - indeed, she can't afford to be otherwise.

@dharding5510 3 жыл бұрын

Having just finished my umpteenth re-reading of P&P, what a thoroughly enjoyable time I have spent listening to your analysis, Dr Cox. Also, I have really enjoyed all the comments that people have shared below. Such a pleasure to come across this on KZfaq....Thank you.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you for your kind words. I'm very pleased that you are enjoying my videos. Octavia

@33Jenesis 3 жыл бұрын

Mr. Collins seemed to really regard his wife highly. Charlotte managed to please her new husband well by being sensible and prudent in managing the household. Regardless Mr. Collins’ disposition and personality, Charlotte chose her own path and forged forward. Her view of love and marriage may be dismal but it is practical nevertheless. I respect Charlotte for being smart and matter of fact. She’s not pretentious or judgmental.

@Pinksugarelephant 2 жыл бұрын

poor Mr. Collins is clearly starved for affection, which is why he's so self-effacing. Austen does note his father was cruel. In the book he lives his life trying to make others happy, probably hoping for some affection in return. He was probably more than eager to admire his wife even though he barely knew her. I really think they would be the sort of couple that would improve with time, as he feels more secure.

@alisaoliver1969 2 жыл бұрын

Nor a hopeless romantic. She knew what HER reality was and made her decision based on that. Much respect for her pragmatism.

@ldcraig2006 3 жыл бұрын

I have often felt that Lizzy's reaction was so contradictory. She didn't want Mr. Collins herself, so why should she have begrudged her good friend from taking advantage of a man on the rebound, and making for herself the only marriage proposal she was likely to get? I don't doubt for one moment that Mr. Collins had any more tender feelings for Charlotte Lucas than she had for him. I think his peremptory proposal to her stemmed from a desire to prove to Lizzy that he wasn't hurt by her rejection. He was, after all, a very petty man. They only thing he needed was a wife to maintain his household -- spurred on, no doubt, from comments made by Lady Catherine Deburgh. So the use of the narrative voice here is meant to stir an emotional reaction from the reader (as it did with me) to sit back and mentally chide Lizzy for her catty, classist reaction. Mr. Collins, regardless of his character, is still considered to be of the same social class as the Bennetts and Lucases, and Charlotte will not suffer any social stigma for her choice of husband. And as you have pointed out in this video, not all of us have the opportunity to be heroines in a romantic novel. Most of us are the Charlotte Lucases of the world, hoping we can find someone with whom to share a life, and make the long years more bearable and less lonely, and to "preserve us from want."

@ammaleslie509 3 жыл бұрын

Lizzy is just sad that her friend is not able to marry for love and has had to make a practical choice.

@alisaoliver1969 2 жыл бұрын

We are all different. I was faced with a choice like that once, and decided not to pursue it. My reasoning at the time was and remains: I can be unhappy by myself without help from a husband with whom I am not at all compatible. Of course, times are different now; we have more choices. But Charlotte made the best choice for her in her day, and I don't look down on anyone who makes a similar choice now. However, such a choice is not for me.

@pinstripesuitandheels 3 жыл бұрын

I just found your channel and as fan of Austen (as I once said to a professor, for the wit, not the romance) I absolutely love your content. What's more, I feel as if I'm back in English Lit. I'm a uni dropout and you rekindle my love for reading, and awaken my brain. Huge thumbs up!

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much for your kind words! To help encourage a love of thinking and reading is what teachers hope for! Octavia

@freudulant 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte is keenly aware that beggars cannot be choosers while Lizzy is blinded by her own relatively privileged position much in the same way that Emma Woodhouse is empathically challenged.

@mouseketeery 3 жыл бұрын

I think it's worth remembering that these events take place before Lizzie has had her pride and prejudice challenged (and punctured somewhat). She takes pride in her discernment and judging of character - here she shows that she's not as perspicacious as she believes. She isn't quite able yet to see Charlotte's perspective and reasoning. But we know that she begins to understand when she goes to stay with them, she sees that Charlotte knew very well what she was about, even if she couldn't have made such a choice herself.

@lynnemarie7885 3 жыл бұрын

I would LOVE to hear some close reading about Lydia's scandalous marriage. Particularly, the unsavoury details of Wickham and Lydia's discovery. I have been thinking my own thoughts on that particular development for ages, but I really need to hear the scholarly opinion. (also I just want a professional to "spill the tea" in all the details hahahah)

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Ha! - thank you Lynne. As might be expected the juicy details are cloaked rather. Much has been made, however, of the significance of the "great slit" in Lydia's gown that needs mending. Lydia writes in the letter to Mrs Harriet Forster announcing her 'elopement': "I shall send for my clothes when I get to Longbourn; but I wish you would tell Sally to mend a great slit in my worked muslin gown before they are packed up" (ch.47).

@lynnemarie7885 3 жыл бұрын

@@DrOctaviaCox hahahahah! I wonder about how great a scandal it really was. ie: what WERE they actually doing the whole of the many weeks before discovery!?!? I can't quite figure out how much time was needed for the letters to reach everyone (Mrs. Forrester to Lydias parents, Jane to Lizzy and Aunt, Lizzy to return to Longbuourne, Letters back and forth from London, discovery from uncle, negotiations from Darcy and marriage. That must have surely taken quite.... a..... long... time. ;)

@janedunsworth8728 3 жыл бұрын

@@lynnemarie7885 I don't think there's intended to be any question about what was going on!

@mariaborsellino3206 3 жыл бұрын

I do feel one aspect has been overlooked in this excellent analysis. While the conventions of the novel of the time dictated that marriage be looked at as a social arrangement, we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking Jane Austen and her female contemporaries were unaware of sexual feeling and that marriage involved sexual acts. So while we can understand and even perhaps admire Charlotte's pragmatism, I think we can also feed Elizabeth's revulsion at the engagement is not just because Mr Collins will be a boring, pompous, husband, but that Charlotte is bartering sex with the man she doesn't like for respectability. I think Elizabeth is presented as an emotional, vibrant woman, ie highly sexed, so to her it is unimaginable to be so false to oneself. Charlotte is made of sterner stuff!

@patyca3035 3 жыл бұрын

I agree, even though I completely understand and respect Charlotte’s decision making process in marrying Mr. Collins, I’ve thought about this since I first read the novel, and it is probably the only thing that makes me feel bad for Charlotte. However I couldn’t say for sure that Lizzie thought about this when hearing the news (and I don’t think physical attraction was even put into consideration- beauty and attractiveness only seem to affect how men in this story choose a spouse) but I certainly thought so myself!

@mariaborsellino3206 3 жыл бұрын

@@patyca3035 All the novels express disapproval at characters who look to marry for mercenary reasons rather than 'love' so I guess it hinges on what Jane Austen wanted her readers to think a loveless marriage meant for a woman. Although she also clearly thinks physical attraction is not enough if we look at Lydia. Poor Maria Bertram denied her need for a man she could love in marrying for money and then went to the other extreme in putting physical desire ahead of everything else, losing everything.

@jogibson9394 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte describes herself as 'not romantic'. So perhaps she's hinting that she simply doesn't fancy men at all, and is either gay (perhaps secretly carrying a torch for Lizzy?) or ace (asexual). So she accepts Mr Collins even though she does not love or fancy him, partly because she knows that she will never meet a man who she will love or fancy. She tolerates sex with Mr Collins as a means to an end. Being very good at getting him to do what she wants, I suspect that she would find a way to cease all sexual activities with him once she's had two or three children.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Your comment reminds me of a quotation from one of Austen's letters about a neighbour who had just had another baby (her 18th!!): "I would recommend to her and Mr. D. the simple regimen of separate rooms" (20 February 1817).

@credenza1 3 жыл бұрын

Hence the very meaningful dash - !

@BridgetStuart 3 жыл бұрын

I have often thought that Mary would have been very happy to have been married to Mr. Collins. And I agree that Charlotte made a good choice for herself. Just because he was not a match for Lizzie never meant he wasn't a match for others.

@jogibson9394 3 жыл бұрын

Yes, Austen mentions that Mrs Bennet would have steered him towards Mary if Charlotte had not been so quick off the mark.

@alisaoliver1969 2 жыл бұрын

Which is what Charlotte said when Lizzie ran off at the mouth about it. 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣

@candicabral1900 2 жыл бұрын

I totally agree I always thought Mary would have been the perfect fit for him.

@susannekalejaiye4351 3 жыл бұрын

"...his attachment to her must be imaginary." Must be true. He is bouncing back after almost throwing himself at Miss Elizabeth, (after first considering Miss Jane and being adroitly redirected by Mrs Bennet - all within a very brief time). He merely wants a wife (and perhaps a bit of a snub to the Bennets, especially Miss Lizzy) ASAP but who would meet Lady Catherine's demands/expectations.

@tarshep3957 3 жыл бұрын

@strll3048 3 жыл бұрын

What I find most impressive in Charlotte's character, is a certain decency that works to make her husband happy and achieves it, despite her feelings or lack thereof. Also Mr. Collins wishes for a marriage of convenience as his prime object is to satisfy Lady Catherine's demands which is done by his choice of Charlotte and her work to fulfill that role, as essential to her family's wellbeing.

@credenza1 3 жыл бұрын

I agree. The marriage produces the very best result that could be hoped for, for all concerned. There is no suggestion of antagonism or discord. Charlotte and Collins, and all their connections, gain something very steadying from the marriage.

@Windjammers1 2 жыл бұрын

Charlotte has the same type of marriage that the Bennet's have. Lizzie didn't want that for her friend.

@debralansdowne6929 3 жыл бұрын

I just discovered your channel and it completely fills my need to discuss Austen novels! I always felt sorry for Charlotte. I believe she was very smart and yet was becoming desperate. As was pointed out, she was 27 years old with no prospects and, apparently, had never had any prospects. She also did not wish to be a burden on her family as an unmarried dependent. I think she quickly realized she could maneuver Mr. Collins into asking her to marry when his pride was hurt by Lizzie's rejection. Though she completely understood he was going to be difficult to deal with, it was better to have him as a husband than NO husband!

@jdillon3035 3 жыл бұрын

Whats amazing to me about the characters in P&P is that essentially a person's assment/opinion about a given situation or person is true. There are so many examples of how one character comes to a conclusion and yet a different character can come to a different conclusion yet both are proven right to some degree. Jane Austen's insight into how people think, how they process information is simply astounding!

@Morri78 3 жыл бұрын

I always felt Charlotte was ultimately a tragic figure. A good example of what happened to many women in that era (and always makes me wonder about JA’s own broken engagement). A new book, the Clergyman’s Wife by Molly Greeley, is a wonderful, bittersweet take on Charlotte’s fate

@mariaefstratiou7427 3 жыл бұрын

I think the true tragic figure of the novel was Lydia. Charlotte was indeed in a much worse place but in the end she secured a better future for herself and her family without marrying a bad person.( it should be noted that mr Collins, even silly, is a well meaning man who got along very well with Charlotte) Lydia on the other hand, a completely naive and guideless teenager, had to marry a gambler who didn't truly love her the tiniest bit. It is strongly believed that Lydia shall live in conjugal misery once Whickam reveals his true colors

@jmarie9997 3 жыл бұрын

@@mariaefstratiou7427 I agree. Collins would never be unfaithful, abusive, or a drunk. He won't spend money like water, the way Wickham and Mr. Bennet do. Charlotte will likely be mistress of Longbourn sooner or later. Hopefully she will have a son and heir for the estate. The one advantage of Lydia's situation is that Wickham's militia would later end up being decimated in the war. Lydia likely became a widow.

@mariaefstratiou7427 3 жыл бұрын

@@jmarie9997 ooo I didn't think of that! It's possible that she becomes a widow rather soon

@g.4863 2 жыл бұрын

I think a majority of modern women are more tragic figures for so many reasons.

@impo55iblegirl96 3 жыл бұрын

This was a wonderful character review! I've always loved that Austen gave us so many characters who chose different matches (for varied reasons) than the "heroine." It gives us a glimpse to what the main character's life could have been if they took a different path. Marry for love, money, or convenience? Be swayed by your friends, sway them, or stay steadfast to your own morals? I enjoy that you can learn from any of the Austen characters.

@apostrophe.t 3 жыл бұрын

First of all: I'm so glad I stumbled upon this channel! This was my favorite novel as a teen/young adult, but it's been awhile since I've reread it. I do remember wondering why Mr. Collins went for Charlotte next, and not just moved down the line to Mary.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Welcome! I think he resents being rejected by Lizzy, and Charlotte is active (more active than Mary) in "listening to him". We're told (after the failed proposal): "As for the gentleman himself [Collins], his feelings were chiefly expressed, not by embarrassment or dejection, or by trying to avoid her [Lizzy], but by stiffness of manner and resentful silence. He scarcely ever spoke to her, and the assiduous attentions which he had been so sensible of himself were transferred for the rest of the day to Miss Lucas, whose civility in listening to him was a seasonable relief to them all, and especially to her friend." (ch.21)

@jmarie9997 3 жыл бұрын

He might have, but Charlotte seems to moved fast.

@rhondajkestin Жыл бұрын

Mary didn't have the qualities that men are attracted to! Who likes to be married to someone who is judgemental and doesn't like to have fun?

@nobirahim1818 2 жыл бұрын

I just love matching up your in-depth analyses of text, i.e. close readings, with the context that Ellie Dashwood puts up! If you watch one about governesses, you'll see Charlotte *could not* have become a governess because she didn't belong to the correct class. So it literally was her "only provision." Ellie recently put up a video on Charlotte too. "Did Charlotte Lucas Make The Right Choice?" And it reminded me of this video 😄 I'm gonna plug this video in that one.

@catherineserver8082 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you again for a very enlightening video. I like how you point out that Charlotte is a more realistic character than Lizzie. I always had the impression that, Jane Austen, was in the same unique circumstances as Charlotte. She was a spinster, without money and dependent on others. She would have thought and maybe done exactly as Charlotte had, if given the same option. As you point out, Lizzie is a romantic heroine. She has the freedom to be self confident in her opinions. She has youth, looks and is not in such financial difficulties that she can confidently refuse Mr Darcy’s first offer since it does not meet with her ideal. Charlotte has made the best deal with what she had.

@rogerandmegh5575 3 жыл бұрын

I enjoy these talks by Dr Cox. I’ve never studied English Literature (not since school anyway), but love Jane Austen, and am enjoying getting a deeper understanding of her work. I think it is very important to distinguish between working class women, and the women Jane Austen is writing about. Women in general very much DID work and earn a living (such as they could) working as seamstresses, laundresses, cooks, working in shops, on farms, in great houses, doing piecework - making a living however they could to avoid starvation for themselves and their families. The comments in the video on the opportunities open to women apply only to a very small proportion of women - women of a certain class. Perhaps women more accurately described as ‘ladies’.

@curtandoscar 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you again. I absolutely love your videos and your analysis. It's positively addictive! I have always loved the book for it's strong feminism. I love that the "older" "plain" woman takes matters into her own hands and gets herself married, not for romantic but for purely necessary, pragmatic reasons, in an era where women were 8th class citizens with barely any rights to their names. (In a lot of the world today that's still the case!) I love too that she tells off her entitled, pretty, younger friend over it. Charlotte cannot afford to be picky because she is forced to live in a world and a time that is so atrocious to women, who cannot even earn their own damn money and must sit passively by and hope a man comes along. Lizzy we know can afford to be picky, and Charlotte tells her as much.

@LizMason-girvan 8 ай бұрын

The older, plain woman making her own destiny has been picked up in the fan fic of the life arc of Miss Mary Bennett. She comes into her own, too!

@briansmith3109 3 жыл бұрын

Fascinating! It's refreshing to hear intelligent ideas based upon close reading of the text. I particularly enjoyed 'impossible' and the hyphen. As I was lucky enough to have been taught by Dr. Leavis, I have a good idea of what English teaching should look like.

@Gilded-girl 2 жыл бұрын

My friend introduced me to Pride and Prejuduce just after the series was made with Collin Firth. So I’ve been a fan for a while now. I fell in love. You said we aren’t likely to find a Lizzy Bennett in real life. It reminded me of my sweet friend , when she gave me the series on tape telling me that I am Elizabeth Bennett and she is Jane. I wasn’t sure how to take that because I hadn’t seen it. So when I had seen it , I was honored she thought that and I can see it. She told me ,” You will see it when you watch it!” And I did! It’s most unfortunate that my luck in marriage did not turn out as Lizzy’s but more as Charlotte’s. Lol

@marvingayefan1703 3 жыл бұрын

I've always felt that Charlotte's choosing Mr. Collins despite him being rather insufferable was at least as reasonable and defensible as Elizabeth's refusal of him despite his being well connected and willing to care for his inlaws.

@faraiheart9561 3 жыл бұрын

True that.I think Elizabeth marrying Collins would have made her miserable and Charlotte not marrying him would have made her miserable

@credenza1 3 жыл бұрын

Charlotte also had the advantage of realizing her husbands flaws before they married, which is the opposite of what she had previously recommended to Lizzie. Her advice that people should know as little as possible about one another prior to marriage is very amusing, well argued and contrary to everything Lizzie believes.

@LusiaEyre 3 жыл бұрын

I was always in two minds about it and I think the narrator was too in a way, never outright judging but offering two perspectives. We know that Mr Collins was a pompous fool and not suited for Elizabeth in the slightest. They would drive each other mad and be miserable if forced to marry. But he wasn't a brute and there is no suggestion he would mistreat his Mrs. Charlotte's pragmatic assessment of his character and station in life made sense for HER. She was on a verge of spinsterhood and never very pretty, so even less desirable as he got closer and closer to 30. And clearly, she was not keen on becoming a charity case. And why would she if he can be reasonably happy with children of her own? Easy to judge for Lizzy, under 21, pretty and witty. Although, I do wonder sometimes where her romanticism comes from since she had no dowry to live off as a spinster and no promise of security from family? Sometimes she seems thinking very highly of herself and trying to prod Jane into marrying rich so she can be a carefree auntie.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

One of the most telling lines (although it might at first appear throwaway) is the comment about Charlotte's brothers: "the boys were relieved from their apprehension of Charlotte’s dying an old maid" (ch.22). This implies that the Lucas brothers had already begun to view Charlotte as a potential future burden - as they would become financially responsible for her upon their father's death (if she remained unmarried). This gives us an insight into Charlotte's home life and the pressures she senses there. So revealing, so subtle, and yet so chilling!

@happybkwrm 3 жыл бұрын

Not to mention, Charlotte isn't Lizzie, she is perfectly capable of ignoring Collins, while to Lizzie, he is fingernails on a chalkboard. Of course, it's possible that Lizzie at 27 (if she'd never met Darcy) might have a different attitude.

@bboo1688 2 жыл бұрын

Idk about him mistreating his missus. Considering his letter to Mr. Bennet when Lydia ran away suggests that had he married Lizzie and had to "share their misfortune" he would had been insufferable to the point of at least using abusive language against her, if not worst.

@normabrewer9368 3 жыл бұрын

Austen also shows us that Charlotte's brothers somewhat despised her, and she had little other chance of meeting anyone to marry. Lizzy does not take into acount the fact that her fried was 27- very much an age when 27 + MADE A YOUNG WOMAN EVEN LESS MARRIAGEABLE.

@jogibson9394 3 жыл бұрын

Yes. At 20, Charlotte, like Lizzy, might well have refused Mr Collins. At 27, it is prudent to accept him, for as Mr Collins said to Lizzy just three days before, 'It is by no means certain that another offer will ever be made to you.' I imagine that Charlotte has not received any previous offers of marriage and, not being romantic, has not even engaged in much flirtation.

@jmarie9997 3 жыл бұрын

Without Darcy, Lizzie might have found herself in Charlotte's position in a few years. Sure, she's pretty enough and smart, but without a dowry...

@johnwagstaffe1610 4 жыл бұрын

I have always felt that Collins is to be pitied. He is clearly one who is out of his depth and he has found that bluster works and that people will not argue ahainst him for he is a Clergyman and therefore educated and well read. Another man promoted above his competence.

@DrOctaviaCox 4 жыл бұрын

Well read perhaps, but not a novel reader - and therefore, co-opting Lady Catherine's words, "not to be borne"!

@nidhird 3 жыл бұрын

Yes I do think mr Collins is to be pitied to some extent. He is good man, competent in many ways but finds himself out of depth in front of people like lady Catherine and mr darcy who are so wealthy and superior in society , that he doesn’t know what to say and how to behave and ends up acting silly and deferential. He is also out of depth with with people like mr bennet and Lizzie whose sense of humour and sarcasm he cannot comprehend.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Certainly Collins is out of his depth intellectually with the Bennets, although socially he's exactly on a par with them (given that he's to inherit Longbourn) which rather exposes his deference to Darcy and Lady Catherine (given that Lizzy and Mr Bennet aren't particularly deferential).

@mariashelly6392 2 жыл бұрын

Listening to you is like experiencing the novel again for the first time, even though I've read it five times in my 68 years.

@jenniferholian5664 3 жыл бұрын

😍😍Literally can't get enough of these Pride & Prejudice videos

@71kaye 3 жыл бұрын

love this. Charlotte is how Austin connects with the majority of her readers. Not including Charlotte and her reasoning would be a slap in the face to most of Austins' contemporary audience. Charlotte could be most of them without dishonor. They may not be the heroine but they could enjoy the story, insert themselves into a character and have someone to relate to.

@helenannedawson3694 3 жыл бұрын

This is a really interesting video and it's great to get a video dedicated to Charlotte, who I always felt deserved attention. I think it's good the way you go through Charlotte's thought process when she accepts Mr Collins, it reminds me a little of the window into Maria Bertram's thoughts when she first accepts Mr Rushworth and then decides to go through with the marriage (though of course she's much more selfish and less sympathetic).

@ricktownend9144 3 жыл бұрын

I've so enjoyed your in-depth analysis in this video - and reading the stimulating comments below. I can't think of any aspect of Charlotte's choice that hasn't been covered! It's all made me re-read P&P with yet greater enjoyment... How about 'Why did Mr Collins propose to Charlotte'? Wounded pride, and desire to hurt the Bennets? - possibly. To further the plot, enabling Lizzy to get to Rosings (and meet Mr Darcy again etc.etc.)? - maybe (but below you point out that he could have married Mary). Manipulated by Charlotte - quite possibly; I think that at age 27 she would have seen how her mother 'managed' Sir William - and maybe had learned to do so herself. But I think the real reason is that he had assured Lady Catherine that he would return to her with a definite engagement, and a young lady whose father was Sir William Lucas was as good a choice as a daughter of the house he was going to inherit under the entail (note - Lady Catherine disapproved of the entail). Coming back to Rosings without doing what Lady C de B had told him to do would not have been a good move for Mr Collins.

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Very possibly. And Charlotte does fit Lady Catherine's specifications: "Mr. Collins, you must marry. A clergyman like you must marry. Choose properly, choose a gentlewoman for my sake; and for your own, let her be an active, useful sort of person, not brought up high, but able to make a small income go a good way. This is my advice. Find such a woman as soon as you can, bring her to Hunsford, and I will visit her." (ch.19). Charlotte was there, available, and had a listening ear. In the fallout from the non-engagement with Lizzy, Charlotte essentially provides Mr Collins with a shoulder to cry on : "He scarcely ever spoke to her [Lizzy], and the assiduous attentions which he had been so sensible of himself were transferred for the rest of the day to Miss Lucas, whose civility in listening to him was a seasonable relief to them all, and especially to her friend." (ch.21). Charlotte knew what she was doing, I think. She had stayed in the room when the Bennet sisters had to leave so that Mrs Bennet and Mr Collins could discuss the non-engagement: "[Mrs Bennet] “Now, I do insist upon it, that you, all of you, hold your tongues, and let me and Mr. Collins have a little conversation together.” Elizabeth passed quietly out of the room, Jane and Kitty followed, but Lydia stood her ground, determined to hear all she could; and Charlotte, detained first by the civility of Mr. Collins, whose enquiries after herself and all her family were very minute, and then by a little curiosity, satisfied herself with walking to the window and pretending not to hear. In a doleful voice Mrs. Bennet began the projected conversation: “Oh! Mr. Collins!”..." (ch.20).

@TaxTheChurches. 3 жыл бұрын

I have always assumed Charlotte was gay, and since being a governess was, to Austen, too odious, too steep a step down, and because there was no nunnery for a Protestant to hide in, marriage to a well paid human gnat was the safest bet.

@JuliannaGeorgiana 3 жыл бұрын

This is the channel I've been waiting for all my life 😄💕

@rachelwhite9503 Жыл бұрын

Thank you. I love your videos, I’m learning so much.

@lenkajf7816 3 жыл бұрын

Amazing channel, loving your analyses! It’s like talking with one of my friends about books we love :)

@oliviastrid 3 жыл бұрын

Loving these!!

@bonniesnowqueen7321 2 жыл бұрын

Charlotte has avery important role in the novel. Not only is she a foil for Lizzie, she provides the justification for Lizzie visiting her and being in the vicnity of Darcy later.

@SpanishCebolleta 3 жыл бұрын

Found your channel today, and so far I'm loving it! I did read Pride and Prejudice some years ago, but not being a native english speaker makes it a bit difficult to catch these themes present in the writing. Thank you! ❤️

@AmandaBaias 3 жыл бұрын

Your analysis is really profound. I find all the nuances you point out so satisfying. Thank you for such a wonderful channel.

@jn8336 2 жыл бұрын

Deriving great enjoyment from your videos. Well done. Viewed 3 in one sitting and enjoyed all equally. Again ,thank you and well done : ))

@nibbleniks2320 3 жыл бұрын

Another excellent segment. Thank you!

@sapphire7424 3 жыл бұрын

So nice that charlotte is getting proper credit for being the reality of her times. As for Lizzie (who I adore), its naughty of her to judge, because what's to say how differently she would think if she herself were 7/8 years further down the spinsterhood line. Ty for having Charlotte's back.

@tomaria100 3 жыл бұрын

Great job!

@jasoncarter6097 3 жыл бұрын

super interesting !

@ChrisBrengel Жыл бұрын

I enjoyed the video - thanks for making it. When you say close reading, you aren't kidding! There are several sentences about the significance of a -. Quite interesting and provocative sentences, too.

@bonniehoke-scedrov4906 8 ай бұрын

Great video! Thanks!

@annmariethomas9968 3 жыл бұрын

This was terrific. I’d like to hear more character analysis of Jane characters (I’ve already listened to several that you have posted-thanks!).

@DrOctaviaCox 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you very much indeed Annmarie for watching my videos. I have many plans for future Austen videos, including character analyses! Any character you'd particularly like to see an analysis of?

@edsepe2258 3 жыл бұрын

Dr Octavia - how about a character from Northanger Abbey maybe Isabella Thorpe? This character I try to be symphatetic towards and always hope she ends up to be happy as she finally finds her love.