Absolutely one of the most riveting and educational videos on KZfaq, by one of the most interesting and educational sites. Did it take a year to show up in my feed because YT has a problem with critical thinking on real scriptural questions while promoting Ancient Aliens and Atlantis Origins BS?

I love how the Hammurabis don't feel the need to monologue on the guest's topic. _Far_ too many interviewers feel the need to impress either the guest or the audience with how knowledgeable they are. Whereas these hosts are confident that we already know they know stuff, and are willing to let the guest do most of the talking, and that's what we're here for!

Dr. Joel Baden is extremely knowledgeable, extremely well-spoken, and has the ability to answer any question comprehensively using a vernacular that any interested viewer is able to grasp and appreciate.

This was fantastic, thank you. I was a Christian for 33 years and a Presbyterian minister for 20+ years. I wish I had been open to do proper study and research when I was at Seminary, but alas …

It's always wonderful to hear from non fundamentalist experts on the bible

The death of moses is the passage that always puzzled me. How could the writer himself describe his own death? Then came the apologists to quickly remind me that the text was dictate by the boss! How convenient! Why didn't the boss didn't write the whole novel himself then?

Joel is blessed for talking truth

Sounds like 2 or more groups with a long distant common origin separated for a long time and later merged at some point and agreed to assemble their documents/stories/laws but on the condition that nothing was deleted. Presumably, it was allowed to add to the merged documents in an attempt to elaborate/clarify but deletion of any text was prohibited. It reminds me of merging of constitutions in merger of sporting clubs.

Just a random comment to help with the algorithm. Awesome interview!

Yet another fascinating topic with a very knowledgeable and personable guest. Thanks for all your efforts.

You two are doing something very special with this channel. Incredible content!

I have always found Genesis 4 fascinating. How could the tale of Cain's descendents be written by the same author as the flood story? The genealogies of Cain and Seth seem to have been conflated somehow, with both having a Lamech. We are told Jabal of Cain's line is the "father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock", present tense. The author clearly states Jabal has descendents in the present. Jubal of Cain's line is the "father of all those who play the lyre and pipe", present tense. Last son Tubal-cain is the "forger of all instruments of bronze and Iron". Clearly the author of this genealogy does not think the line of Cain ended with the flood, and does not see every living human as a descendent of Noah. The evidence this is not all written by "Moses" or any single author is clear as day.

What a great conversation. The big takeaway for me was that, in assigning authorship, "follow the plot, not the vocabulary". It really does seem more probable that an author will use a rare word than contradict a major detail of his own plot.

Thank you. Great interview.

If you start with the realization that these were stories passed on orally, it's really not that complicated to explain. Most likely, when religious leaders decided to write a comprehensive narrative... they got together the best "historians" they could find and built a story out of the most popular oral traditions of the time. The stories are clearly ancient, based largely on previous Middle Eastern origin myths and popular Hebrew tales of how Israel came to be. How could a redactor choose which narrative(s) to favor? Obviously the answer is to build an aggregation which includes all the major highlights from each historical tradition. There probably isn't *one* guy who knows the entire story in the first place. And the Jewish culture is very adoptive anyway, so their default solution would obviously be to give consideration to any/all significant sources... weighing each one to the degree that is merited. In other words, there's no need for a single reference "truth" in the first place - just compile the stories we have and call that the foundations of our religion.

Perhaps Dr Baden could do a follow up on when, how and why the redaction process took place, with reference to Josia and the 4th century that he mentioned briefly

Yes of course! He recorded his own death, then wrote it down in writing, and then died. This is a privilege of religion founders only.

Thank you Dr Baden for your time. Thanks Digital Hammurabi for providing your resources. This was one of the most informative lectures I've heard on this channel and a few others I've listened to recently. I get the impression that Dr Baden is someone who loves the study of these literature, but at the same time is annoyed with fundamentalists/literalist who refuse to see reason 🤣🤣 I'm looking forward to further interviews with him.

Very pleasant interview. Peaceful with asking questions and patiently listening . Very mannerly!

What a wonderful channel! Keep it up! Looking forward to watching this interview!

I always thought that the rain and water flooded for 40 days, but that the waters lasted 150 days, but it only rained and gushed up from below for the 40 days.

I very interesting discussion. Thanks very much everyone.

Thank you very much it was wonderful! I live in Israel and listened to interviews with Israel Finkelstein (who does many interviews and can speak english *winkwink*) and according to him the aftermath of Israel being conquered by the Neo-Assyrian empire is that many if not most of the Israelites fled to Judah, that could explain a lot of the duplicates in the bible in my view. Also he thinks the origin of the mythological united monarchy is in Israel because Judah was a vassal of Israel at some point and the mythological united monarchy was later altered from the Judean perspective.

Best bible explanation channel on you tube

OK so if you can help me find the source where it talks about the passover lamb being boiled. Here is what I found. Ex. 12 talks about eating the passover lamb roasted. I didn't find anything about eating the passover lamb boiled. Lev.8:31 talks about boiling the flesh but that is talking about the inauguration sacrifice.

9 fundamentalist watched this video, just look at the dislikes. I love this stuff! Thank you for this interview.

Thanks for an incredible channel! Your clear passion is contagious and every video is so educational.

(1:25:23) Q: What does one call people who ignore evidence that contradicts their beliefs? A: Unfortunately, that describes most, if not all, people. Upending one's core beliefs takes a lot of getting used to. It is not just a malady of the religious, although, they can be particularly recalcitrant.

How did Moses write accounts of things that happened long before he was born?

Half the problem is that it is always being looked at by insiders with religious motivations. I was never able to believe in any gods after being exposed to all types of world culture gods as a very young child. (Dad read National Geographics cover to cover to us as infants and Toddlers. He was a believer however still in his own odd way) . But by age 4 I was an absolute atheist and by age 11 I was so curious why everyone constantly told me I was going to hell if I didn’t “believe” in the bible yet none of them ever seemed to actually read it at all or just read and studied short passages bit at a time. So I read it. took me a year basically because every time I hit these contradictions and repetitive stories I was like “wait a minute” and I would scramble back and find the other version and try and figure it out. Sometimes it just threw me into cognitive dissonance and I stumbled on reading. Sometimes I got so bored I put it down for a couple weeks and went back to reading novels, plays, and even comic books. I just consumed so much print as a kid. The old testament was to me clearly a mash up of different perspectives and older texts. The new testament was to me clearly slightly different versions which were trying to improve on each other’s stories. But clearest of all was that while some actual history miiiiight be in there-the magical mystical spiritual stuff was just bullshit fairy tales like every other fairy tale from every other region of the world. Aztecs and Inuits and Chinese and South Africans and Aboriginals from Australia all had their own fairy tales and world origin stories and talk about contradictions...And now some dominant culture comes along and tries to mash them all together by making claims that every culture has a flood story so this particular flood story must be the right one! Give me a break. It’s a joke. I really LOoooVe the one post colonization apologetic about how the Aztecs predicted a “white” god would come and so how that must be Jesus...because European Christians assumed Jesus was “white” because paintings of Jesus (from imagination) became paler and paler the more North the religion moved across Europe-with Jesus becoming a blonde infant for the first time in Northern Italy. But the historical Jesus (if there ever was one) would have been a Middle Eastern Jew not likely white but more closely resembling some Aztecs themselves! Where’s the “white” god from this perspective ?!. LOL! But the missionaries never ever imagine they might be wrong and so use force to eradicate other’s cultures. All this Bible scholarship is interesting when someone sees through parts of the text’s errors but unfortunately most people are too lazy to read one difficult book and too insular to reject their indoctrination. The internet is the antidote to religion but it’s still the privileged who can afford it. The rest of the world is still isolated. People still live tribally in many areas and may not even have a concept of overall political world boundaries ...barely of the ultra modern and high tech world.

Considering Moses was a fictional character, that would be pretty tough for him to do

Your channel Is a valuable resource to people that are serious about studying the books of the bible

"Nobody knew about layers till we came along..." Wellhausen-lol

Very interesting. Thank you for posting.

Short answer, No. It was written over many generations by different people. I just saved everyone 90 minutes of your time.

Can't wait to listen!

Please, I want to learn more about Bible criticism from Joel baden

Great video! Is there a contradiction in the flood story? Because it says that it “rained” for 40 days and 40 nights and it says that the flood waters “prevailed” for 150 days. Is there a contradiction here? Please help.

fascinating insights. What I am going to post is surely a bit naive as I am not a Bible student, but I studied linguistics and also lots of medieval texts. Medieval texts have been transmitted through multiple copists, and sometimes, the copist worked from a translation, which was translated back. Your conclusions seem completely logical to me, but could we also study the influence of the texts pinging between languages and the plot being altered then? The problem of course, is that all these discussions are focussing on the Bible and so many people/groups have a stake in this book and will it to be the inalterable word of god. Then, there is the political aspect: the Bible was part of an agenda, and surely the altered stories might be a consequence of the different agendas, can they be explained in that light?

It took me 3 times to pass the half time mark of this interview. It's a class in a flexible schedule, so who cares it takes 10 hours to finish it?

Another great video with a brilliant Scholar. Learned tremendously.

A great conversation! I really enjoy this channel. A few weeks ago I read a book by Rabbi Dr. Joshua Berman called Ani Maamin and was really impressed. It would be great if you could have him on your show just to have some alternative views on this topic. His views are very different from most of the statements I've heard and read on this topic, but (as a non-expert) I found many of his arguments very convincing and refreshing.

just watched again. such a good interview.

Would love to see you interview Russell Gmirkin, he has an interesting take on dating the Torah to the hellenistic period. He has a number of interviews on mythvision and elsewhere already.

Thanks

The bottomline is - somebody wrote that stuff down. The question is, did God have anything to do with these stories in the first place? Over and over again, i get bombarded by the explanation that whoever these authors were, that they were "INSPIRED BY GOD" when they wrote these scriptures. In the end, the arguments will always lead to whether a supernatural event really took place (God directly communicated with "inspired" humans), or these were all just products of creative human imagination and nothing more.

This was incredible!

The example I look at, is when comparing two books together namely Exodus and numbers. You see right away it is the same book written in a different way, also the different uses of the names of monuments like Mount Sinai as well as Moses father-in-law Jethro, these names are interchanged which then indicates also a different author. But just understanding the two books are the same book and Deuteronomy is supposed to be a recap of the books, this evidence in itself shows Moses didn't write the book, I mean who writes the same thing 3 times three different ways, this evidence in itself disqualifies a single author

Sensational

Wonderful video 😊

Notes for myself: 05:40 11:00 14:40 16:00 18:00 22:00 1:16:50 www.academia.edu/1818873/Dating_Pentateuchal_Texts_and_the_Perils_of_Pseudo-Historicism

It is hard to believe that a person who did not exist wrote anything.

I wonder what joel baden thinks of Russell Gmirkin's theory that the old testament was but together between 200bce and 300bce at the library of alexandria

Very good interview btw. Good flow-good explanations.

It is interesting that the Talmud says that Ezra was on a level to be like Moses in stature.

1:20:04 : in the Coran it is written that it was Ishmael and not Isaac that almost got sacrificed

There is NOT a 'leap' in the 'middle' - I have resolved the 'gap' as well as have generated a 100% scriptually backed 'Theodicy' (something no theologian in history has accomplished) and would be happy to speak on this. My warning would be that I will then fulfill Isaiah 52:15. My contact info is 'out there'. Right here some would enter 'Thanks' into this message. I'll instead say... You're welcome, and let's fix this mess. Shalom.

Thank you for this! Truth!

Under the "Neo-source" thinking, is there any new book that has collected the individual stories told by 4 sources and broken out into those four sources? I want to hear what the source sounds like when they stand alone.

No... So what do I win? Great content as always. 👍

Yes...... The third question was my question 100%

The Bible With Sources Revealed (2003) and Who Wrote The Bible (1987, rewritten and reissued 2019); both by Richard Elliot Friedman. Just Saying.

(19 September 2023, 10:50 a.m.) Currently 1530 BC is a popular date for the expulsion of the Hyksos. This date does not align with a circa 1446 BC date for the Exodus based on 1 Kings 6:1 mention of 480 years from Exodus to the building of Solomon's Temple. Not very well known to many, however, two Egyptologists, who identify themselves as Christian Apologists, Professors James K. Hoffmeier and Kenneth A. Kitchen, independent of each other, toted up the number of years of rule from Joshua, the Judges, Saul, David, and Solomon, and concluded the Bible erred! It was not 480 years from the Exodus to the Temple's building by Solomon, it was over 600+ years! This 600+ years aligned the Exodus with the Hyksos period of Egypt! Despite this extraordinary finding, both Hoffmeier and Kitchen, then trashed this Hyksos alignment, opting for a 1260 BC Exodus based on the mention of a store city called Ramesses, built by the Israelites, which, for them is the city of Pi-Ramesses of Pharaoh Ramesses II.

My question is not directly related; What makes a marriage between a man and a woman? Following the original design plan.

When you guys get back on track, how about Sean McDowell and Candida Moss discuss (not a debate) persecution and martyrdom of Christians and apostles? I just noticed Megan knows Candida on Twitter. Take care.

Also Dr Josh, I saw you say the Israelites were actually Canaanites on Gutsick Gibbon's channel. Could you please help me find the sources to document that?

"Boil it in fire" is one of the most technically correct from a certain point of view statements I've seen in a while. There's a pot and water also involved, but it's technically correct; though, considering the pots of the time, it might have been better to nestle the pot in the hot coals or just above them.

This video seems to conclude Moses did not write the Torah. Why? Scholars have noted numerous contradictions in the Torah, suggesting for them, differing authors, of different ages, have been patched together, to create the Torah, as noted by Dr. Joel Baden. My interest is in determining WHEN WAS the Torah created? Some scholars have argued it was created in the 7th/6th centuries BC during the reign of King Josiah. Others claim it is a product of the Babylonian Exile (587-539 BC), still others, in Post-exilic times (5th century BC). I tend to favor Exilic Times, no later than circa 562/560 BC based on 2 Kings 25:27 mention of the Babylonian King Evil Merodach, who reigned circa 562-560 BC when assassinated in a palace putsch. The author of 2 Kings 25:27 makes no mention of the Babylonian monarchs who succeeded Evil Merodach, nor no mention of Cyrus the Persian, who set Judah free to return to the Promised Land and rebuild the Temple. I am persuaded that Genesis-2 Kings is a unified work by one author who has cobbled together works by earlier men. I see a ring composition here: The beginning foreshadows the end: Adam and Eve are removed from Eden for disobeying God, foreshadowing Israel and Judah being removed from their God assigned land for disobeying God, as happened to Adam and Eve. This ring composition suggests one author for me.

This is how you know ppl haven't read their bible. Even I noticed a 2nd creation story in genesis and i just kinda ignored it. I'm not a Christian.

Just reading - Maths Meets Myths: Quantitative Approaches to Ancient Narratives Its a taster of the new possibilities in complex systems.

Does the Hebrew Bible read more or less "weird" when read in Hebrew? Just curious. Thanks!!

Absolutely, he signed it with his personal GPG key.

The "two interwoven stories" hypothesis , makes sense. Eg. In the New Testiment, you have "The Gospels", which are four versions of "The life of Jesus" and a warning in the titles-" The Gospel according to John, according to Luke , Mark or Mathew....etc. Is this type of thing ,not common in the Bible...

Deuteronomy 1:1 varies with translations as to whether it's "this side" or "across" the Jordan. Is it a matter of debate among Hebrew experts. Because the meaning is very different.

Roast or Boil..... I once read the reason for 2 methods of preparing the Passover Lamb was because in Egypt they were told to make it and eat it in "haste"...Ex.12.11.....but in the promised land they were at rest from thier enemies and could enjoy a relaxed Passover ... If I find the quote I will post it. So again Joel, it is our ignorance in understanding that makes us feel like scholars when we ask so many questions that appear to be problems on the surface....it is said that all the problems in the bible can be put on one page and that they are not significant...Scripture is about salvation but if your focus is "problems within text" then you may miss the beauty of its truth and purpose...The devil is the one who seeks to undermine scripture but he has to use people who are ignorant of his presence.

Wish someone would take the same approach in New Testament scholarship. There Occam's Razor seems to be unknown. Sources are invented, and arbitrary (as early as possible) dates are assigned with no evidence.

I think was your best interview so far! Great guest, thank you so much for your consistently well presented and informative content.

Re unique compiler. A lot of the scribe's job was quite rigidly codified. Can we not argue that the single compiling method is due to the general rule of compiling rather than one lone compiler? (not yet read your book, so apologies if this sounds a bit daft).

I understand why the Torah is so hard to date. Next question. Why am *I* so hard to date? Haha.. ha......

BTW- According to the Biblical story of Abraham, Ishmael was the older brother of Isaac. Joseph was the grandson of Isaac from his son Jacob. So the so called ‘Ishmaelite’s’ would have been second and third generations from Ishmael. That is second and third cousins of Joseph and his brothers. Family and clan ties in tribal societies are strong. Generations must pass before these clans become distinct. The last thing you want to do is sell your brother to your second cousins.. Goes to show how careless were the inventors of these stories…..

What happened to the Tav Ivri. I know just asking for those curious about the disappearance of Phoenician letters

What is odd to me is how people seem to think the early Israelites were so good and righteous. Even in the bible itself, most of what it describes them doing is nomadically roaming around sacking cities and taking slave wives. They were not good people. No one wanted to see them coming because they apparently were equivalent to desert vikings. And when they did decide to stop being nomadic and establish a city. They couldn't just go find some land that wasn't occupied. No they decided to go commit genocide on the Canaanites and steal their land. If you ignore all the supernatural and religious stuff. The old testament tells a story of of rape and pillaging and destruction of city after city people after people perpetuated by the Israelites. I don't understand how people aren't picking up on this and seeing it for what it actually describes. And don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem with Jews. That stuff was 2000 years ago and their culture has changed since then. They aren't like that anymore and honestly most cultures were pretty brutal back then. So they probably weren't any worse than anyone else. But somehow their problematic origins are completely ignored. But that is just common all cultures have their own version of history so a lot of what old texts say happened either didn't happen or happened completely differently from how it was told. Aside from that, from a theological perspective what always confused me. Why did God rest on the 7th day? No one has ever been able to explain to me how an all powerful being can get tired and need rest. If God is even capable of getting tired that sort of debunks the all powerful aspect of God's nature. In the flood story he repented having made mankind. That means God had regret. And you can not have regret without the realization that you made a mistake. That debunks the concept that God can not do wrong or make mistakes. It directly stated that God considered making mankind to be a mistake despite the proclamation that God can not make mistakes. It's a direct contradiction.

BTW- According to the Biblical story of Abraham, Ishmael was the older brother of Isaac. Joseph was the grandson of Isaac from his son Jacob. So the so called ‘Ishmaelite’s’ would have been second and third generations from Ishmael. That is second and third cousins of Joseph and his brothers. Family and clan ties in tribal societies are strong. Generations must pass before these clans become distinct. The last thing you want to do is sell your brother to your second cousins.. Goes to show how careless were the inventors of these stories.

As i am seeing this,...I was thinking the other day, when God chases Cain from Eden, and he says but "what if someone see me they will kill me" and so on...and at this point ( by the way there are plenty of points like this, that make you think more deeply about the essence of what is written) and at this point i am starting to think who else, when there is no one else,...and many times say to myself loudly as i read this, Who Else..???..or...maybe start to unveil different thinking,..and than i saw the next day some explanation that provoke me, and now this video, and i started to think,..yes,..(First of all lets be clear you can not understand the Bible if you are not familiar with the terms hermeneutics and exegesis before that),..and than i started to think and just now as i see this video and got it confirmed that maybe it got sense,..That there were more people on the Earth on those days which confirms the first narrative of the Genesis and maybe God created more of them and the story about Adam and Eve and how it develops is OUR story, the story of Man,...The story of God and Man,..The story of a relationship of mercy of wisdom of love,..from whoever it is started. That must be, one point, one story, one narrative from where the story unfolds...(In a way,..you can not start from Adam and then switch to Bill than to George as a start of the story that is,..you choose one and you start the story,..in that sense,...if i am clear enough so far)...So in a way to cut the story short this kind of stuff confirms even more about legitimacy and complexity of The Bible and how is it put together ...It contradicts it self but at the same time is telling the same essence ...just like the nature of man.

Interesting discussion & some great questions. However, most or all of the discrepancies mentioned in this video are not of a kind that could not be found in a homogeneous work. The arguments that support the document hypothesis have been thoroughly deconstructed and debunked by scholars of various backgrounds throughout the past several decades. Yet, it has has been continually dusted off, slightly adjusted and laughably been presented as a "New" theory in theological universities. This has been the staple diet of the gullible in these institutions despite the fact that cutting edge research has consistently been highly critical of the documentary hypothesis and related theories.

What is the deal with Moses and Mt. Nemrut in Turkey?

Nice as always, thank you. Moses never existed, end of story.

💡 The Torah reads like if somebody combined the four Gospels into one story, like in those "chronological" bibles.

At 13:40 regarding Gen 37, there's a question regarding ishmaelites or medianites.. which could be explained as medianites passed by and they sold him to them. I don't think one has to go to two stories to explain that. And I don't really see how other things are indicative of two stories.. Reuben was there while the brothers plotted, has an idea for how joseph can be saved, which is for him t obe thrown into the pit and he can rescue him later, and perhaps Reuben then leaves wanting no part of it. Nowhere does the text say that the Medianites took from from the pit and sold him to the Ishmaelites. The text says The brothers sold Joseph. So a three way interaction makes sense. I have read stories before where something is confusing and could be this or could be this 'cos in one part it reads like this and in another part like that, and nobody would dream of saying oh there are two different stories by two different hands/people, and they got combined by an editor.

8:03 about the flood references: did it ever occur to u you that the 40 days and 40 nights reference is referring to how long it rained and the 150 days refered to how long before the waters receded?

Wish I could've been in the chat when someone said "pandemic hair, looking like crispin glover" I was LMFAO

It seems to me that dr. Baden is trying to make it very simple but in doing so it looks unprofessional and much less academically express or delivered in a proper way with the right words.

one bringing things up that aren't blatantly obvious as problematic don't consider that per reality anything can be removed one simple step and be hidden as to how or be counterintuitive. think of the time when you thought that something was caused by something else or asked yourself why didn't i think of that. it is much more likely at that there is unbroken line than this man trying to disassemble an untraceable thing with ignorance and if you look this man is one that has a huge bias against what is. he is hired by devils. one that isn't for what is, is against

Sorry but Baden was difficult to follow and he seemed to be reaching for facts he wasn’t very clear on himself. He might be brilliant, and perhaps his book is better organized than his live delivery. His jerky style in speaking and leap frog thought process made portions of this intolerable to listen to.However... I do appreciate the host’s ability to stay out of the way and look forward to exploring his videos with other guests (especially those scholars and authors that I’ve heard on other channels, where the hosts unfortunately don’t know when to shut up and let the guests speak, constantly jumping in, interrupting and commenting.) Bravo! 😎👍

the torah may be undatable and the text from the 11th century c.e., but how many assyrian texts were written in the 11th c.? they may be datable but proved undataeble.

Does the neo-documentary hypothesis still believe that different versions of the same (non-priestly) stories were sourced from the divided Northern and Southern kingdoms of Israel?

Does Dr. Joel Badden do debates?

👏🙂 Very interesting. Great video

Conservative Christians and the Apologetic Corporations harmonise the variant stories in the texts of the bible.

I believe it would not be realistic to assume any one person would even be able to write the first five books, the Pentateuch, of the Bible: The Torah. While Moses was a special and unique person, he would need help, I would think, for verification of events and checks of the truth or questions of the truth.