"We would rather have 100% of 1 million dollars than 10% of 1 billion dollars." -James Workshop

People blaming third party bit sellers instead of games workshop for games workshop's decisions is kind of like blaming water for flowing downhill when a big corporation introduces a canal that drains a lake. This bell of lost souls article is trying to be contrarian for no other reason than to be contrarian.

3rd party companies kept Blood Bowl alive for decades when GW couldn't be bothered to support the game created by the master of invention for rules 🙇🏻‍♂️🙇🏻‍♂️🙇🏻‍♂️ Jervis Johnson has an incredible imagination and I am happy playing there.

In the late 90s GW started opening up stores in North America. So to corner the markets, they stopped selling products to locally owned hobby shops. This basically caused hundreds of hobby stores to go out of business. This is who GW is. They don't care about anyone or anything but their profits.

As a proud OPR patreon supporter this just makes me laugh in "try to stop me"

I remember when I wanted jump packs on my death company so I ordered a bunch of jump packs from games-workshop. And the time I wanted melta guns and plasma guns and ordered metal ones from GW. And the time when I wanted dark lances, blasters, disintegrators for my dark eldar and ordered metal ones from GW. And all the times white dwarf had DIY terrain articles in it, or the DIY flying tank article. They stopped selling extra parts and are now shocked that other companies now produce extra parts? Make better decisions GW, and that goes for you to BoLS.

Fun fact, I claimed that GW did what they did to the guard book because guard are the easiest faction to use 3rd party models. One of the guys on GW's rules team, who is in my local gaming group, claimed I was a conspiracy theorist.

The article is blaming 3rd party sellers for taking advantage of an opening in the market instead of GW for trying to crack down on that opening.

I am in shock and awe (and perhaps I should not be) that the solution to "we don't have miniatures for these rules" was to delete the rules instead of producing the miniatures. Like, the absolute lack of brain cells here! Everyone could have won, but instead, they decided to die on this hill and take their game with them.

This is ironic, considering that BoLS dedicated a lot of articles to the Chapterhouse case, and a lot to how GW still managed to ruin Chapterhouse after losing the case. (edit) I just wanted to add...imagine if TSR and Ral Partha had been just as litigious about their IP as GW back in the 80's when some company got started producing fantasy Orks for Dungeons and Dragons...

GW prices are what hurts the hobby. People buy 3rd party precisely to avoid GW. Arguing market confusion is lying.

This is typical of BoLS. One of the reasons I had to drop out. They promoted the endless competition that turned every pickup game into tournament practice, constantly attacked third parties that gave options not available anywhere else, and just created toxicity in the community.

As a dedicated Blood Bowl player, I find it so bizarre that some 40k players would have an issue with other people buying/using third-party models. In the Blood Bowl community, if you find a models you like better than the "official" GW ones and use those instead, literally nobody would even dare to imply you're somehow doing something wrong by spending your money on what you actually want. You'd need Khorne's own goddamn brass balls to tell a Blood Bowl player they're "stealing" from GW by buying third-party models. 😂

But what was proven in court and was judicially failed to be acted upon, Is that GW has achieved through Vexatious litigation an illegal monopoly. Even more damming is GW inadvertently admitting that they intend to continue to maintain said illegal monopoly.

The funny thing is, there are also people like me where One Page Rule basicly helped GW. For years I have mostly bought AoS (because of being more interested into the lore their than the 40k lore) and stopped buying Codices. I have seen the rules of One Page Rules and around the time of October I desided to make my 40k armies into Grimdark Future armies so I at least have an overview over my armies that I have collected for the last 15 or so years. - In these last month I have build an Rebel Guerrilla army made of models from Blackstone Fortress, a quite large amount of Blooded Killteams and other models from Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cult and Adeptus Mechanicus (that already has around 10,000 points in Grimdark Future) - I have bought several models for a Genestealer Astra Militarum (or Soulsnatcher Human Defence Force) where my last bought models were 2018 - I have bought an Elven Jester army (Harlequins, where the second half of models were bought today) - and an Army of Watch Brothers (non Primaris Deathwatch) - and I'm now starting to build a Human Defence Force with a Tempestus Theme as well (their should be some orders still arriving the next 2 weeks. These are at least 5 bulletpoints where GW has gotten a quite large amount of money during the last Months that they most likely wouldn't have receive without Grimdark Future.

The Rogue Trader book included instructions for how to build a tank from an old deoderant stick.

17:02 “the imperial guard has been hurt. Show me on the doll where” 😳😳😳 also ending the article with “the emperor protects” that was like psychic damage

So I'm building an Iron Warriors army for 40k. I dislike the current space marine sculpts for the look and feel of the IW. I went to Tortuga Bay Studios and got (way too many) bodies that are true scale MKII/MKIII/MKIV style armor. I then went and bought (way too many) GW kits from FLGS and GW to make sure I got the right arms, the right weapons, etc.. I recognize I may never be allowed to play in tournaments but I got the army I wanted to play in that game system. I don't feel the least bit horrible about it at all.

"within a capitalist system competition increases choice and quality and is good for consumers" Games Workshop: "No"

Not only is two companies competing in the same space totally moral, it is actually desirable. The Two companies will compete with each other and make better products for the customers.

Remember when workshop used to make kits that you could actually kitbash instead of kits with option a or b they have created the market for 3rd market parts and now others are filling the void

Whilst gw is making money from the rules, I feel people have the moral right to use whatever miniatures they want, if the rules were free, I would support gw's position more.

And this is why gw continues to do what they do, because they have loyalists like these (no pun intended)

Meh bols made a bit of a balls-up with this one. Own and operate FLGS and guess what...we have a print farm, we pay the licenses, print the minis and take the cash that apparently we ourselves...are stealing from...ourselves... 🤔🤔🤔great work bols, great work. Pulitzer inbound for this one

As a lgs I have explored getting commercial license for stl's. Most have lost their minds, the license would regularly cost more than all of the GW stock required to be a stockest store. Most just sell pirate printed models on etsy. I recently just started contracting custom stl sculps, far less than the commercial lic and they are exclusive to our store.

The year is 2069 and the GW Forces have marched up WotC Confederation held territory in the western hemisphere, meanwhile the OGL Alliance have struck a vital blow to the WotC Confederations weapons depot, and Pokemon storage supplies.

If i had a miniatures company i would name it "third party".

I wonder if GW would have even more success if they just would stop to bully other companieis and start to get along well with other hobbyists.

Yo that Pirates movie was surprisingly good, had CGI skeleton fight scenes and everything

GW acts like this cause articles and people who are willing to die suckling from the teet of GW. Loyalty to companies who wouldn't breathe the same air as you if they could is what's making 40k worse in my opinion.

"Why?" "Games Workshop..." Ding-dong

GW turned their back on kit bashing the day they stopped customers from ordering individual parts. 3rd Party manufacturers and resellers just stepped in to fill that need. If GW don't like it, they have the ability to start selling bitz again, as they make their own models. The answer is simple, but it means catering to their customers, not their shareholders.

No gw stores over here, no "regular" shipping to these places for some years, and insane prices... But lets not talk about it in the article. I will just print another army while drinking on the tears of BoLS.

I lowkey died when you showed the gobbling of the banana with the deadpan 'starting to sound like an advert now'. 10/10 Discourse, peak slaneeshi humour

I remember being young and reading all the hobby articles that were actually on GW's website that told you how to make terrain and stuff... Not only did they get rid of the hobby part of the hobby, they also got rid of the best game they sold to only sell dumb space skirmish and slightly more fantasy looking space skirmish... Fantasy was the only reason I still gave them money after they dropped the hobby articles, now there's no reason for me to give them any more money, I'll just 3d print my own minis and play old editions of fantasy.

Well then, tell GW to stop price hiking their stuff. Maybe get some new 3D sculptors in. I mean there are several places that do IG miniatures better than they do. Even with the new sculpts. Yes I know they wont actually do it

But how will BoLS keep getting previews and scoops on GW products, to write articles on, to drive clicks and engagement on their site, to lead to advertising revenue if they say anything even remotely critical of GW's practices Discourse? Could you imagine if they even made the vaguest gesture in the direction of thinking about criticising the business practices of a multinational company? Think of the consequences! Great video as always.

Will GW try to prevent people from selling their used GW models? They are losing sales to these people.

I can actually 3D print models at my local public library - they have a 3D print lab! Something to think about in terms of widening 3D printing availability!

The minis I'm painting right now are an example of how "Third Party" sellers can *help* Games Workshop. Basically, back in the 90s I had a half-formed idea of a force of Space Marines that weren't, y'know, evil, that turned into this "renegade but not chaotic" chapter that worked closely with the local humans and had support from a small band of Eldar, mostly for transport. But I never really built it. Then, recently, I discovered more-or-less at the same time both the company Anvil Industries and the lore around the Astartes 2nd Legion and started thinking I should try again. But GW Mark II armour minis are expensive, so it stalled for a while until I found some 3rd party figures I liked. And so I set out to plan a force of "Marines," "Guard," and "Eldar." At first I was thinking third party for all of it, but here's a twist: third party "Space Marines" offer better pricing than GW. Third party "Imperial Guard" do as well. But (setting aside the print-it-yourself options) the third party "Space Elves" aren't any cheaper than GW Guardians, and to my eye don't look as good, either. The result? I've just finished an actual box of GW Guardians, I have a Wave Serpent queued up, and I'm planning to do another box of each. That's at least four boxes of minis that GW never would have sold if third party "Imperial Guard" didn't exist, and shows that if they *want* to actually compete on price, the aesthetic quality and ease-of-acquisition of the official miniatures makes them a strong draw. Alas, GW would rather try to imitate Amazon and just force everyone else out of the business, and I expect that until and unless the player base says "enough of this" and stops spending money, they're not likely to change.

You're playing an important role in this community that I recently discovered at the start of the pandemic. Keep doing what you're doing.

Image the paint selection world if GW controlled it as much as they wanted to. Thank goodness for the free market.

LOL GW protecting their IP while so shamelessly forgetting how many bits GW frankensteined from other IP's ;P

There has been articles like this written for years now. I'm not sure if GW is pushing this to publishers, but the arguments are moot. It's like a 1920's horse salesman telling you that cars are evil. 3D printing is rapidly becoming the new standard. GW likely gets these guys to write these half ass articles because they haven't figured out how to adapt to the new standard. GW would make a killing if they sold exclusive STL's of a faction you can only get in STL. They can figure out how to be a Tesla, or they can go the way of the Edsel.

I'm kind of shocked that "game stores hosting printers" and "STL makers selling commercial licenses" isn't already standard practice. that's the kind of thing that prints money for both stores and STL makers.

local shops getting into the 3d printing business is a great idea like

If anyone is writing an open letter to GW with the content "I spend money on non GW companies, please don't start to cry." let me know. I will gladly sign it ;)

High quality content and commentary as always! After being reserved at first about your face on approach to 'incoming ordnance battlefield clashes' I came to like it more and more, now I'm basically watching them all and find myself agreeing with most of it! And, you're basically the only subscription I always watch immediately and all of them, not like a couple. If at all... most of the others find themselves in the 'to watch later' folder... Love your show, I think it is absolutely necessary to spread the information of what's behind the scenes in terms of legal affairs, secret messing with prices/releases/troubles/..., basically all news about 'the hobby' and even alternatives! Thank you for always weathering the storm girl, you have a lot here climbing the sails for you if need be!!!

Odd I have seen FLGS sell third party miniatures, they have been doing this for years. I am wondering if the author of this article has actual been in a real hobby show vs a comic book/gaming store? If the author had been to a real hobby shop, they would have seen all kinds of third party items being sold for all kind of things. Clearly this Warhammer is the only thing crap needs to go away.

Come for the rant, stay for that smooth jazz music

This is literally the definition of an abuse apologist: “An abuse apologist is somebody who tries to justify the abuser’s actions or makes excuses for the abuser.”

SpongeBob Squarespacemarine: The Damp Chapter House.

So it's 3rd party makers' fault that GW makes less guard infantry models than it did 20 years ago?

I've got friends who are GW shareholder and even they buy from third company parts to use for conversions, proxy's or because they think it looks cool. The only comments I have ever had when I played against them was where did they get it it from so I can get some. I'm going to put a bet on the next article is going to be how those selfish bastards who buy second hand models on eBay or at bring an buy stalls at wargames shows (again something that my GW shareholder friends also do a great deal) are also going to kill Games Workshop unless they are stopped.

The Bellends of Lost Soils said some stupid stuff? Say it ain’t so! Nobody thinks you’re an idiot Discourse, they fear you. They fear you because of the clown makeup. That clown makeup is such a power move that it disrupts their alpha fantasies.

if I took a shot every time this green screen failed and she looked like She-Hulk, I'd be underground (dead).

Capatilist do not believe in free markets. That's the first thing you have to understand. 2nd is the network effect, people play 40k, because other people play 40k. While it achieves a certain threshold of acceptance it is not going away. All big players in a market will be surrounded by.a bunch of other business benefiting from the main one. If that symbiotic relationship is broken that's when they have real problems.

So the author’s solution is to have GW ban 3rd party miniatures from tournaments. Well if it’s a store run tournament GW has dick all to say about it. If it’s a GW held/sponsored tournament they already have that rule. I haven’t looked up the rules in some time but it used to be any model had to be 75% GW. I can’t imagine GW has loosened that restriction if anything I’m sure it’s tighter so even this solution the author suggests already exists 🙄

It's the sort of inane argument where the only suitable response begins with: "Listen, kid..."

GW suing Chapterhouse was especially silly, considering that, as I recall, Chapterhouse was selling mod kits for tyranid models that still required you to buy the GW model to use them. So, it would have been a symbiotic relationship, if GW had just let it go.

I really enjoy listening to you perspective on the wargamming hobby. I am a D&D player/DM and miniatures painter I have recently started getting interested in painting Warhammer and other war gaming type minis. Listening to you has actually gotten me interested in the war gaming hobby. I find your enthusiasm for the hobby quite contagious and you insight into the background of the game quite enlightening. Keep up the good work.

Great timing on this. Wargames Atlantic just teased their space marine knockoff in their Friday email. Anyway, the prevalence of 3rd party manufacturers is a direct result of GW's greed and stupidity, so they can reap what they've sown and do one.

The only reason that I haven't made a guard army yet is because GW didn't have any Valhallan Ice Warrior kits. Now that I bought a 3d printer there are plenty of options.

Ngl, if my local game store offered the option to bring STL files to their store and pay to have them printed... I'd absolutely participate in that.

Reptilian Overlords has licensed printers that are also game stores. This author can kick rocks

This article is a load of horseshit. Biggest FLGS in my area sells 3rd party kits in terms of oathmark and WGA minis. Also has a filament 3D printer. This argument is for the birds

“Whats that? The model you want is out of stock and is online order only? Dang thats a shame, but don’t you dare even thinking of finding a proxy for your casual local games.”

I went to a Warhammer Fantasy tournament at a GW store in the early 2000s and there was a (maybe) 12 year old boy there with a chaos army and he had swapped out other minis for the daemonettes. He was kicked out of the tournament without a refund and not allowed to play for not using 100% GW models. His reason was that he was 12 and his mom wouldn't let him have topless models. His army was well painted and there was no question what the alternatives were. He asked if he could just remove the models and play at a handicap and they said no. They said that it was company policy that there were no subs allowed. Period. He had to call his mom to pick him up. Only when she threatened to sue and half the store stood behind her did they give the kid his entry fee back. He was crying when he left because he'd been treated so poorly. Half the tournament players walked out. It was the last time I played Warhammer. I sold my army on eBay and haven't bought a miniature from them since. GW is a garbage company. They have been for decades.

Death Guard used to be able to take Nurglings as a troop choice, the model is still available so why was it removed from the options BoLS? I've said it before the miniatures were GW's when they were in the store, when they are paid for they are mine and I can do what I want with them which GW and BoLS have no say over

Are we really surprised by such a stupid take when its the same platform that wrote an article against alternating activations because "40k is fully turn based so alternating activations are not 40k and would fundementaly change the game to something that isn't 40k" ignoring that the broad strokes of 40k's gameplay, the setting of 40k, and the models and armies of 40k would still be there

My FLGS is Gamers Guild in AZ. They're a community lead progressive business and are always trying new offerings for their customers. They've just acquired a set of 3d printers, licenses from stl creators, and are creating large on-hand stock of 3d printed goods for us based on what we want to see printed. It's pretty awesome. Would be cool to see a feature like this on the channel - you should consider interviewing small business / flgs owners who are trying stuff like this out!

A lot of Warhammer hobby sites do appear to have been made by 15 year olds who are just learning HTML. HTML 4.

That article put the four L's in Bell of Lost Souls.

I was just at my local GW store playing a small 40k game and the store manager is pretty chill. You can use other paints than citadel, and up to 30% of armies can be non GW models. Sure in any other LGS you have the freedom to do what you want, but at least they're being more realistic now. But this will definitely vary from store to store.

Excellent discussion. The fact that Games Workshop is so fixated on the money and not the hobby has convinced me to avoid Games Workshop products in the future and spend my money on companies like Mantic and One Page instead.

Random Page Online: Third Party Miniatures are Ruining the Game! Me: If you refuse to play against me because of my Victoria Miniatures Guard, I don't think we can be mates.

Only thing I like from these sites are the retrospective articles. That way I know what the oldhammer kits were called and when they came out.

I haven't given Greed Workshop any money in two years now. Feels good. Somehow I still love hearing you drop 20 minutes of truth bombs on them. Also thank you for telling me about the entire chapter of Space Homosexuals! I feel so included! Stunning and brave by GW.

The article complains about the damage 3rd party miniatures do to local gaming stores, yet fails to mention the damage GW are doing to them - GW raising prices for local gaming stores stocking their products. I'd be willing to bet GW do more damage to local stores than all 3rd party miniatures combined.

Back in 98, GW had 2 major rules. First, "ONLY official GW mini are allowed in any sanctioned GW tourney." Golden deamon etc. Second, "If it is not on the mini" If the mini did not have say, lightning claws, then you did not have it, period. I had to re tool over 20 metal Eldar guardians to have S catapults. I retooled speeder bikes and Vipers with shuriken cannons and pinned for las cannons. {yes, we have metal and did not have strong magnets back then.} We had other makers back then, Harlequin being the biggest.

I used to love converting ork vehicles, using plastic card and GW kits ork battle wagons could be anything. I feel orks players have lost out the most because of GWs narrow veiws. My favourite design was I took a Remote control plastic Robot wars Growler and added GW panels and guns and played it as a Super Heavy 👌 these were 40ks best days. I understand that technically you could still convert GW kits but it's doesn't have the same feel anymore 😕. As always Love you Discourse ❤️

Bell of Lost Souls, more like BELL END of Lost Souls! Hah got them

it's really weird that GW thinks that if third party manufacturers didn't exist, then those customers would buy GW instead of just... not bothering to play. But GW's always been like this, and BoLS seems like they've always been interesting in kissing GW's butt as hard and as much as possible.

If I could afford some spacemarines, I'd invent a homebrew chapter called "BoLs Brothers"

GW defenders are almost as bad as Kanye defenders at this point

It's because gw cant copyright the words veteran and conscript lol

"I said to the Red Bull, "I must have them! I must have all of them, all there are! For nothing makes me happy but their shining and their grace.' "

In the last couple of years, I've taken up the hobby of 3d printing and have taken interest in board games and other table top games. I haven't really had an opportunity to play any of these games though. While getting into this stuff, I have become a bit of a fan of Warhammer and I'd love to try it out. One Page Rules seems to be the proper stepping stone for this, since I don't know anybody who plays Warhammer and I've realized that it is absolutely impossible to learn Warhammer on your own with no context. If I ever purchase official Warhammer models and get to play that game, it will be 3rd party sellers and 3d printing that brought me to it. The whole idea that 3d printing is causing Games Workshop to lose money is a joke. There's no way I would have even been looking into the game without 3d printing first.

I could convert gw models, but to say that their kits are customisable is BS

All you need to say is- Shampoo bottle Tank! FTW!!!

Honestly, between their prices, and how delicate their expensive and difficult to assemble models are, I’ve pretty much left them behind. Recently it has been Flames of War, Black Powder, Team Yankee and Battletech. The end result is that I’m actually excited about the hobby again. Oh, and collecting 54mm figures for painting and skirmish games.

What GW has to compete with are models that are cheaper, better looking in alot of cases, that contribute to a bottomless buts box, and once you get ok at 3d software they are even more customizable.

I’ve decided you’re the TotalBiscuit of the Wargames hobby. Which I’m sure you’ll agree is a compliment. Keep up the good work 😊

Games workshop started playing this game back in the mid 90s. They used to sell the old school metal imperial guards with a sprue that had multiple lasguns and lascannons on it. You could buy a single imperial guard mail order and get a plastic sprue with like 20 weapons on it. When they revamped the imperial guard (4th ed?) The new sets made it so much more expensive to build up the cheap heavy weapons squads that were possible before. And they made the newer models bigger so the old models looked strange next to them. Same old same old.

Talk about hubris. GW assumes everything they make is everything players want, and anything GW doesn’t make is because players don’t want it.

The nuance they missed is in believing that GW is the whole of the war gaming community, and everything else is just a pale ripoff.

Waiting for the Discourse miniature game. Let’s get at em.

That was one heck of a segue into the advert 😂 great work

TL;DR GW: "Free market bad" Wargamers: "No, u!" BOLS: "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

I watch you ranting so I can rant too