Make characters divers

Yes! I’m gay, but my gayness doesn’t influence my personality, likes, or dislikes, and neither does the fact that I’m a woman. I’m a person who happens to be gay, not a gay person. Don’t use stereotypes to write people, and especially don’t use them to judge people. Obviously, writing LGBTQ+ people is different from writing people of different ethnicities, though, with that you have to take into account the culture behind it. Don’t think that you can just change a character’s appearance and be done with it, but also understand that you need to not make all characters from the same ethnicity carbon copies of each other.

If a character description begins and ends with black, or gay, or girl, or muslim, etc. then that character is a token character.

This is such a great way to put it

Characters of diverse is the proper term

"uh you're gonna need more than that for a likable well written realistic character" "no. black"

Deadpool “no no just make him black and that’ll shut the sjws up” “But what about the people who want actually well written characters instead of just showing diversity for diversity’s sake?” “fuck em we‘ll make a shit ton of money anyways”

" Okay, you want their backstory? When Michael Brown- " *" Stop. "*

@@j0nke314 black people: 'us blacks want true representation with well written likeable and complex characters to show our struggles' SJWs: 'B L A C K'

Replace black with gay and you end up with Neflix's marketing strategy

Let's see... * Majestic voice * Nice beard * Wise old man aura Works for me

I mean, if the shoe fits

@@noblebork7444 and if it doesn't get new shoes, it's Morgan Freeman.

I mean I agree with that

I agree also, I mean who wouldn’t want Morgan freeman as their god?

"Just because your characters have diversity doesn't mean there good" its true

I somewhat agree, but you should just write people like people, regardless of race, sexuality, or gender

pretty much

I disagree, in some stories skin color is just an esthetic, so you can change it as you want, the same thing for sex. So you can have a story with four straight dudes and decide to change few of them, skin color, sex or sexuality, in my opinion don't define a character.

@@pierredufour6164 Well you have a point there. However, sometimes it matters if the story is centered around being historically accurate. Now obviously not all stories care about that, but it’s still just a thing to know :)

What if I put them in a bookshelf just because that's where I keep all my books? (Hypothetical question, I don't have that many physical books since I moved)

I put my books on a book shelf because that is were books go. But they are full, so in stacks on the floor is were they go now.

Maybe I'm just too paranoid and self-conscious, but I'll never understand people who put their bookshelves in a highly visible place. It's just an invitation for me to silently judge them harshly for their awful taste and questionable political interests. I guess it's meant as a conversation starter?

w4fjhDU514I1 I doubt anybody has other people’s opinions on the books they own on their mind, when they start decorating their apartment. Or indeed the concern of what they’ll talk about with their guests, once their home is furnished. People usually place the bookshelves where they do because of what the space limitations dictate, or because they want to be surrounded by books in a particular room (like bedroom versus living room). Books are for reading, but can also be a delightful decoration, and engender a sense of warmth and safety.

Displaying those books on a bookshelf to draw attention to frequently unheard voices: __?

@@cursedGalataea Gib example

Did not know that. That's kinda funny actually

@@Pierre371 how is using semitic languages as a base for Dwarf racist? That's like saying he was racist toward Welsh people because the Elvish languages borrow heavily from Welsh.

@@Pierre371 besides, if I remember, Tolkien was Jewish

Kevon Donovan-Prince- I didn’t actually say he was, in fact he actually denounced the Nazis for hating on Jews. I just pointed out that it was little tone deaf since he compared Jewish people to dwarves. I’m sure his heart was in the right place and all, he wasn’t racist. But like you know.

@@MJPotter can you honestly say that she was only picked for her singing voice and acting chops? Can you say, Without a doubt, she wasn't cast for brownie points, even in the slightest? Cause if you can't, then you can't say for sure that she isn't a token pick. Now, am I saying she won't be a good Ariel? No, I can't in good faith say that. I haven't seen this remake, and Ariel isn't a super distinct character(due to the fact she can't speak for a large portion of the film) so, she'll probably do fine, hell, it's possible she could be the best, but that's not the argument. The argument is, this recasting is another in a line of white characters(particularly redheads for some reason) being recasted as black, for no discernable reason other then to make it more diverse, a token.

Omg get over it

@@pdph-kk4ut what's wrong with stating your opinion

@@MJPotter They're trying to eradicate the redheads. Scientists estimate redheads/gingers will be extinct by 2050.

Omg so true

Agreed

How do you tell then?

@@lampad4549 If a person's entire character revolves around their race, gender, sexuality, etc...

@@lampad4549 Depth. If a minority character exists in the background and has not only little do to in the story beyond be their identity then I think you call that character out as being a token.

Finn from Star Wars was non specified ethnicity in the script. Ripley from Alien was written as a male character. The casting directors just made the best choice from the auditions

...and he considers neurodivergent / not neurotypical too. I think that might be why T1J speaks so well to cis-het-white-males (like me). He doesn't focus exclusively on what his experience has taught him that I don't get, but instead considderes everyone's lack of experience in someone else's shoes. He's inclusive, not exclusive. He's also part of the nerd tribe, so that helps too ;)

Yes I was very grateful. I notice that a lot of diversity advocates don’t always include those with disabilities. It was nice to hear

And disabled comments😉♥️

Intersectional moves !!

It's always used to occur to me that if Dr. Who were to have a companion with a medical condition he'd probably find a way to cure them and they'd travel with him all healthy and whatnot, but that it would be a real kick in the nards for anyone with that condition irl. I haven't seen an episode since 2016, but i was very glad to hear of the companion with dyspraxia. I'm sure with all the answers to time and space there's a way to "fix" it and ideally the dr would have offered, with the companion either politely declining or being offended by the suggested invalidation of their circumstances and it leading to the audience learning things. Either way it is only proper for her to offer.

*omigoodness noooo*

hahahahaha

"Don't believe every quote you read on the Internet." ~ Abraham Lincoln

👀👀👀

America is so racist a gay black actor gets attacked by MAGA hat wearing Nigerians! Next on the 6 o'clock news hour, KZfaqrs prove the Earth is actually flat.

That's an interesting writing technique. Write their personality and substance then leave their sexuality, race, etc for last. And modify as necessary

@@Thesandchief it's actually really stupid.

@@MouldMadeMind why??

@@Thesandchief it’s not stupid, but difficult and depending on the genre impractical. The main advantage is that you are less likely to run into tokenism or creating stereotypes. It is useful when casting people for movie roles, since it allows you to feel the character out in the moment. But there are also risks that writing technique not worth it in many cases. Like how easily you could end up writing confusing scenes, if you don’t have a clear mental image of the characters. Or by accidentally projecting certain stereotypes on to characters. Like the flamboyant villain. Who despite being really cool to follow and has a great presence, might accidentally come over as a gay stereotype.

@@frankwest5388 oh i see. Pros and cons to everything i guess. Thanks

Really. Racism isn't about who you know, it's about how you treat people of different ethnicities.

This comment ‼‼‼

100% agree

@hbrs arsm curry isn’t a racial slur, the n word is and so you are technically a racist, but he was also being sorta racist but he didn’t call u a slur. Also I’m south Asian too and I would never call a black person that word even if they were saying even worse things cuz it’s not my place to use it.

@@Nakia11798 why woudlnt it be? Why would a racist be friends with someone from another race?

what does that mean?

@@emersonwodnick8012 I mean, watch the video - right around 13:00 - it's great. But basically it's when "diversity" is addressed or included but diverse perspectives are not. Hiring one black actor but not black writers. Hiring a few black candidates but not recruiting at HBCU's. Sticking a toe in, but not wanting things to "change too much."

Rob Cantave I appreciate your comment sir

@@RobCantave You're very racist, lol. "hiring a few black candidates, but not recruiting at HBCUs", really? "hiring one black actor, but not black writers". This is all very racist and discrimination by race. Hiring one black actor because he is black is textbook racial discrimination anyway. Hiring a cast of competent actors where one happens to be black is equal opportunity and fairness in hiring... AKA diversity.

@@RobCantave consider this: hire people based on SKILL not by race or either genders.

Ok I realize I sound stupid and I’ve watched it since I was a kid, so I thought it was cause he was rich cause token=coin=money=rich,,, and I never second guessed myself

​@@rugdealer1729 Best part is that his full name is Token Black.

i only realized that like last year too !! my native language isn't english though, and i didn't know what exactly 'token' meant anyway

@@kadeschneider674 lol omg ...mind blown!🤣🤣

the irony is now that hes such a part of the show hes not exactly a token X'D most of the stereotypes are forced on him and he isnt a part of it himself which describes his character i have a black friend that didnt understand why he was named token either that has been watching since the first season that was a good laugh

None of those things matter except for the character arcs. The other things are just trivial points in a character most of the time.

He isn't even the only black kid.

@@MouldMadeMind I mean he was for a while

@@MouldMadeMind he was for nearly the whole show and his full name is token black. They obviously knew what they were doing with the character even if their are other black people

@@goctwo3362 yeah South Park in almost every aspect is satirizing stereotypes. Token Black (speaks for himself) Cartman representing the "average Conservative American”

There's Nichole now

Exactly, he's educating himself and the intention was good. Not sure how the friend reacted (aside from calling it tokenism) but he was trying to be more open to different view points and experiences.

His viewpoint is an optimal example of progressiveness in modern times. He's so nervous to talk about it though, I get that. So sincere :)

His friend sounds a bit weird like lol should we really not listen to people who need their voices to be heard? It's so strange like... WE LISTEN BY LISTENING TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE 🗿

Read whatever you want , if it comes from a white person or someone who looks like me , it doesn’t matter, so long as you enjoy the book.

@@chadpowell1832 yea.

I agree with you completely! I also feel that those 2 things make the writer of the show better and that makes an overall better show that the message gets heard more clearly

I was going to reply to you with The Good Place and then I read the rest of your comment.

@gaelan white not really The blue ranger was always black or nerdy and they had a lot of bad stereotypes If you want a good piece of rep see arthur that show was bomb

As well as the majority being POC, Eleanor is bisexual and frequently mentions crushes on women and ex-girlfriends. But it’s not leant info it’s just a part of her, the word bisexual is never even said in the show and the rest of her friends don’t react when she talks about same sex partners because it’s just a part of her and they know that

When watching the Good Place, I hardly noticed the identity of the main cast. It just wasn't important, or even ever brought up.

I dont like it when they are just there for no reason and they get written like an extra but are treated a a main character.

@@gremlinfifty2308 how can someone be for no reason, even is just the mailer was gay and appears in one episode it doesnt make him extra, it just happens to be hes gay like in real world lmao

@@LuisBiondi They are written like an extra but are treated like a main character.

When people add gay people to stories, they usually only add them because “ohh gay is cool! This is how we get woke points with our FELLOW KIDS” and then proceed to shove the most shallow and stereotypical gay person with no personality other than “gay”. Then they shove their sexuality in your face every two seconds. A show that does, however, include a gay person the right way is a Scottish murder mystery/detective show called Taggart. There is a gay police detective, but he’s a nice guy, a good detective, works well with his team. His sexuality doesn’t get brought up every two seconds and he actually is a likeable character

Yeah and the gay person is a flamboyant, feminine, sassy gay man, or the person is just gay despite having no indication that they would be gay, or the implication that they would both be gay and interested in their longtime frenemy like marceline that was some bs

To be fair there are gay people who's only personality trait is gay

@@exetone I mean stereotypes maybe but not the fact that they're gay

@@ceasinghornet40d40 sir have you ever been on Twitter or Tumblr? or have you been blessed to never acknowledge thee lands of the famine

@@user-io5ie5gu8j I've been on Twitter alright but I mean gayness itself isn't a personality trait. If you say it's your personality trait it's just because you have no personality whatsoever and want to fill the void.

@@ceasinghornet40d40 oh no I mean as a commoner you may not know but as an artist myself I've seen a shit ton of character whose only personality trait is being gay or being black which while inclusive not interesting per se or they end up making them into a complete mary sue which again it's not very intriguing also have you ever checked the neo pronouns people in Tumblr (which again it's okay to be neo pronouns or whatever but I'm using the TUMBLR ones as an example)they tend to make their sexuality and gender there the whole character like believe when i say I've never met one in Tumblr that was at least somewhat interesting or had anything other than there gender to talk about

Exactly. I think their intentions are good most of the time but it can come off as cringry or even condescending. I read quite a lot and and one of my goals is to read diversely. By diverse I mean authors from different times, places, ideas, countries, genders, cultures etc. And sometimes I'll just read five sci-fi books from Western male authors in a row. I don't want to force myself and I feel I don't have to because a good proportion of diversity comes just naturally at this point. I don't know. If there is an honest interest and respect for people just as people and human beings and no fetishising or putting people on a pedestal then I think it's all good. /rambling

@madeleine swann hey, could you elaborate on that? I'm just genuinely curious to what you mean, and what context you are talking about. (I can be a bit slow if I don't understand the background or the thought process behind a statement)

@@klisterklister2367 I noticed a few people of colour/trans people etc complaining (only a little) at booktube videos where they say 'I heard this author was trans and that's all I needed to know' and then not really elaborating on what else they liked about it or who the author is aside from their identity. Not a major thing and it's good they're reading them, but comes off a bit odd

@@MadeleineSwannSurreal ooooooh now I get it! So its a little bit of "now I've collected my woke points so I'm done and can go back to my usual interests and never speak about this book again". Thank you for elaborating 😀 and thank you for being patient with me 😀

@@klisterklister2367 no problem, I should have explained better 🌝

He’s been in so many movies that I’m convinced that if god made himself appear in human form, he’d look and sound like Morgan freeman.

Only other actor I'ld believe as a (christian) God is Samuel L Jackson. Not because he's black, but because if the (again, christian) God came to Earth and looked at what a mess it is, he would need to use the word "motherfucker" a lot.

It's because he got cast as a god in Bruce Almighty

@@cwcpants140 I think everyone is aware of that lmao. He was also God in Evam Almighty.

@@SeventeenGhost Jamie Foxx could probably do a good God voice, he's a vocal wizard.

@batsight Right, Finn is a useless character who did all of this. v Realizing that they had to destroy the Resurgent Star Destroyer, Finn and Jannah stayed on board the vessel's hull while Rose Tico, Beaumont Kin, Kaydel Ko Connix, and the rest of the ground team retreated. While they chose to stay, Sidious was just overpowering Rey and Ben, using force drain to return him to his former self. When Lando brought in a huge fleet to take on the Sith Eternal forces, Finn began to realize this and proclaimed that Lando did it. Finn and Jannah took control over the turbolaser cannons on the command ship and fired them at the bridge of the Steadfast, killing Pryde and destroying the tower just as Rey harnessed powers of the past Jedi to kill Sidious once and for all. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Finn

@@moonlitebrite9317 I think people are arguing he's a useless character in regard to the fact that his story in Episode 8 and 9 plays second fiddle to Rey and Kylo's. Sure, he did things, but in regard to his arc in Ep 9 he doesn't really have one. Which is unfortunate because a lot of people hoped that his status a former stormtrooper would matter more.

@@SuperPal-tr3go How does Finn not have an arc? The people who continue to say this, really haven't been paying attention. The whole point of episode 8 was Finn dedicating himself to a cause greater than himself as opposed to being like DJ and not committing himself to anything. And in episode 9 he becomes a Resistance leader and learns that he has the Force while also learning to let go of Rey. Also, ther was pay off for Finn being a former stormtrooper as he met other stormtroopers like himself and connects Finn leaving the FO with the force. If that isn't an arc then what exactly is?

​@@moonlitebrite9317 Sure he does meet other stormtroopers in EP9 but beyond having a single conversation with Jannah and getting some space horses in the last battle it doesn't really go anywhere. He doesn't learn to become a Resistance leader. He already is one in the film and even lectures Poe about not being a good leader when their at the DS wreck. Same goes with the Force connection. He already knows about it before the film starts and for some reason decides not tell Rey or Leia throughout the movie. Moreover, learning you have a superpower isn't really an emotional arc in my opinion to begin with. And as for letting go of Rey... he literally screams her name constantly trying to get her attention in EP9. Finn's character essentially stops growing after Last Jedi imho.

@@SuperPal-tr3go *sigh* What do you mean it doesn't really go anywhere? Finn force abilities is the whole reason he lead "space horse" batter in the final battle. And how is Finn not learning he has the force not an emotional arc when it was an emotional arc for Luke? Did you stop paying attention seeing what happened after Finn screamed Rey? He literally let's her go instead of continuing to chase after her. Btw, I don't think there are any other scenes with Finn screaming Rey's name in TROS. People make it seem as though all Finn did was chase after Rey which isn't what happened. Let's be honest, it's very hard to have an intellectually honest conversations about Finn or anything else in the Star Wars sequel trilogy. Oh and didn't you just say that Finn was useless in episode 8? But now you're saying he stop growing TLJ, even though you just said he was useless in that film?

Trademark Moxie all of this, yes! I’m an individual (as we all are) and I hate that I have to speak for my whole race or people feel like a couple people that are my race speaks for every black person. We all have different experiences and circumstances that makes us who we are.

Let me pose this question for thought (I know I'm all over here but the video did a better job than I thought getting thinking juices going), was having voted for Obama primarily because he would be the first black president tokenism? If it was a black person voting for him for that as the primary reason, would it still be tokenism?

@@TheBashar327 This is such a funny question and I can't explain why

@@TheBashar327 No and no. Black people voted to have our culture represented on the American stage. His culture is our culture so we are not singling him out as a special black person per se he was just the guy who applied for the job. He was a good politician and happened to fill a need.

@@Rabbittavo , I can see that, but some people only voted for him because it would make him the first black president. Those are the ones I am talking about.

Personally its a problem when a character is added as a main character but become a complete 2d stereotype and add to the diverse checkmark Im not the type of person that constantly goes “Why are there no black people?” I actually believe that if you dont know how to write a minority without making them seem forced or offensive then dont write them

I guess it all depends on a region the fiction is from and the fiction's context. I see a reason why American fiction about American people in America shouldn't be "white only", but a show about medevial England is kind of a different story and it's okay.

Most people here don't look like me, although most of us are white, because not all white people look like me, act like me, or share the same views. Same thing with any other race.

What about blacked, a show literally marketed as a show just for black people , I mean, the main cast is black, I can see that with my own 2 eyes, so why does it need to be stated that the cast is black

Because it's annoying and completely unnecessary. Not to mention writers who are too busy pushing them in forget about quality while doing it.

Finn was way better than Rey tbh

FINN SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE JEDI!!!

I will always promote this take. A stormtrooper breaking free of his conditioning and discovering his Force powers to become a beacon of hope against the thing he was brainwashed into? Hell fucking yeah! But noooooo we just had to have Rey in there....

@@jdn5593 I could write a damn thesis on this i swear to god

@Paul Martin yeah China is like the literal worst

How can't people tell you're Asian? Asian people and white people have different body features for the most part. It's definitely rude to assume you'rr white because you don't have an "Asian" accent.

What is f.o.b?

what's an f.o.b??

F.o.b = Fresh Off Boat

@@Nakia11798 good question

A lot of people just don't realise how far down the rabbit hole they are, they see experiencing diverse voices and diversity as a threat. They tend to refer to educational facilities as 'brainwashing', and most mainstream media only produce 'fake news' or 'propaganda'. The irony of all this of course is they think they are protecting themselves from misinformation, but in truth they are reinforcing their susceptibility to being misinformed. They continue to shut off more and more voices from the outside world, and they are no longer able to distinguish a toxic, disingenuous voice from someone who simply speaks from personal experience or someone who has done a lot of research. People are considered wrong by association, they come to ludicrous conclusions such as universal healthcare is a socialist principle, therefore it is socialist, therefore communist, therefore Stalinist, therefore it's associated with the Stalinist purges, therefore universal healthcare is a bad thing. It's a symptom of tribalism of course, not limited to one political perspective but all of them, though it does tend to thrive more in extremist or fundamentalist interpretations of an ideology.

Maybe after he talked about how far he was going expand his world view, his friend felt a little inferior and tried bring him down a notch?

@@lloroshastar6347 I don't understand how people come to that conclusion. If one's tribalism has reached that level than I feel sorry for them because being that afraid of everyone sounds like a miserable existence. How do they even go through life in a country like the US? There are so many people and things from other cultures and backgrounds that you can't go through the grocery store without being exposed to outside influences.

@@jamesgomez9151 maybe. If they feel insecure maybe they should try doing the same thing and learn about other people's views and cultures.

@@rn2787 A rather strange argument I hear from such people is that diversity is a myth, that the world isn't as diverse as it is in media and that cultures simply cannot exist together. That I find is prime level of ignorance, it is a genuine unwillingness to allow reality to tarnish their view. The reality is that the world is Much more diverse than it is portrayed in media. When it comes down to it no two people are the same. If these people finally created their mono-racial, mono-culture they claim to desire above all else, they will simply invent something else to hate or blame for their chronic unhappiness with the world around them.

lmao youre not wrong

Wow i-

I can’t unsee it now

@@tomsky4751 your welcome

Oh... I can't unsee it

Imagine believing that... and then calling other people brainwashed. lol

thats twitter in a nutshell

LMFAO DO THEY THINK THE SAME FOR PEOPLE IRL??? I'M SCREAMING

That is probably because they DON'T think that and it was a joke for their folowers.

@@rafaelmrc4433 thats the thing They barely had any followers lol

my point exactly

There was no diversity in moana, they were all homogeneously samoan.

@@akale2620 yeah, not white.

@Naivet Moronta was that not the same thing?

@Naivet Moronta Coco had an All latino cast (iirc), Moana was all Samoan

Sadly, sometimes Carriere, there's no winning. That James is trying seems like a good thing to me also.

That’s kind of where I’m at with it too. If you’re looking to learn more about different cultures, it’s best to go straight to the source. In my own experience, I’ve learned a lot about different people by seeking out books, essays, art & music created by them. I’m not black & I can’t really say if that’s tokenization or not, but I’d like to think the caller has good intentions. If we don’t seek out information, how are we a supposed to understand those who are different from us & bridge the gap?

I do believe James is right in seeking out authors with different viewpoints than himself. However , I do believe the friend is right in it being tokenism as it is just minorities. If he did this and included other forms of different viewpoints such as different political ideas and different urbanization areas, then it would not be tokenism

Whenever a Cis friend starts telling me about their other Trans friend, my whole brain panics because I don't want to be part of someone getting outed, even though I'm garbage at remembering names and will probably forget within the next 10-30 seconds. And just to add my two cents on the whole non-binary element - it's probably best to just ask your enby friend what pronouns they'd like you to use when talking about them, whether or not Transness is mentioned. Even if most of us are "out" by default, some folks stick with "safer" pronoun choices (he/she) outside of their trusted social circle. Other folks don't want to be misgendered in any way, no matter what. Just like LifeLostSoul says, it's a bit of a different story. (Though TBH you may as well just ask your binary Trans friends too. S'just nice to check with your friends about how they prefer to be referred to.)

Here's my two cents; don't out anyone about their gender or sexuality, people can fucking die from others outing them.

don't out your nb friends without their permission either tf. being non-binary can be met with just as much hatred as outing somebody as trans. ykw just don't out people full-stop.

@@pidgethepigeon2706 I'm talking about the enby friend who is openly out. Because it literally might not be able to talk about that friend without being like "yeah my friend Lea ze are an Artist, they do weird stuff with bones" or person asks"Lea is that a boy or girls name? They are gendergueer" "Oh, you keep saying spouse are they your husband or wife? No they are my spouse. They are agender" Even at a restaurant to the waiter "They are in the bathroom right now, we will probably need a little bit longer to order." I'm talking about conversations where you are respecting your non-binary friends gender the only way to do that is outting them. This isn't having long conversations about if your friend has decided to go on hormones, or thinking about surgery. This is for purposes of respecting their gender to people who don't seem like a threat, honestly even to people who might because it normally takes people a second to realize that you are using gender neutral language only and that anything might be different about it. To ask anything about it. This is coming from an Enby. Like fun stupid thing is let's get an x on our diver's license that outs us but it's also gender affirming because it's not male or female.

@@notinsane4165 So your just going to misgender people then instead of saying what they are? You would rather disrespect someone's gender identity? Literally living as a non-binary you don't get to pass you have to have other people use your pronouns and associated language. You can't come out to ever human on the planet. Like when you come out as a woman you expect everyone you know to now call you their sister, women, she, girlfriend, ECT. Why can't enby expect the same? Just because it's not possible for us to pass? Why can't we expect the people around us to start using these words in affirmation for what we are? Sibling, enbyfriend, spouse, SO, child, ECT. Use Language like Agender, gendergueer, graygender, ECT. Why is saying a trans woman is a women isn't outing? But saying someone is enby is outing? Both are just starting genders just part of an existence, like it's implied I'm trans but yeah that's how shit works. Why should it be my job to come out to ever person on the planet????

i'm a huge rebecca sugar stan and i grew up watching steven universe, adventure time, and now i've gotten my brother into it. to preface, the shows can sometimes be dark, or more mature but they touch on some hidden themes/subjects that you don't usually notice in other cartoons. they deal with growing up, love, loss, emotions like anxiety and anger, healthy relationships between friends or family (romantic or not, straight or not) and i watched it even when i didn't know i was lesbian, and then i got distracted by my studies and came back to watching it, and i'm heartened that marceline, pb, and garnet exist. i feel represented, and it's not bad rep. even tho i'm asian and my family doesn't talk about "different" people/relationships, my brother became more open to these themes because of these shows, and he's also learning a lot about life in general and how to deal with everyday emotions/troubles healthily.

@@thepriceofsalt9003 Indeed, in terms of representation Adventure Time and SU really hit the nail on the head, even though in most other aspects I'd say Adventure Time is a superior show, but that's just my opinion.

Well, not many people noticed she was black too because of her mother

Lizz, Your Hope bruh that’s what I thought this was about when I saw marcie

the price of salt Steven Universe is probably my favorite show and I hate it when people say SU is terrible because it "shoves diversity in your face". And they don't even bother taking five minutes to understand the story itself and make their judgement on that, they just see one image of Ruby and sapphire holding hands and immediately label it as bad which gets on my nerves. These antis also seem to get off to purposely flipping off the fanbase for no reason, like they would go out of their way to say stuff like "adventure time is better than Steven universe" (which is a harmless opinion alone, but unnecessary to say in this context) even tho Rebecca worked on AT lmao

Did you do it?

@@CandyApples4ever Not yet

@@communismwithgiggles2515 Now?

@@dweezildee It's actually kinda hard to find some of their emails

I'm getting flashbacks to Anthony Goldstein and black Hermoine.

I also really hate “forced diversity” because it forces writers and directors to create content to include diverse groups of people, that they personally know nothing about! They could’ve hired more diverse and talented people to create contents that appeals to those diverse audiences, but they don’t do any of that. Giving more creative power to minority groups would affect the status quo in Hollywood.

Man really, i'm surprised someone criticizing morgan playing a god

Yea that’s what I thought, I actually that it was because of Morgan having really good acting skills and having the charm to play god

Keith David would have also made a great God, but I think Morgan Freeman's physical appearance fits better. He's just looks like a dude that has seen a lot of the world and has a lot of things he has learned in life.

@@putraduha3176 😂😂😂😂Me too...

Yes, I think it's because Morgan Freeman is literally God.

Black Romulan try “matt baume's culture cruise” He does some cool stuff although mostly queer focused

As the commenter above said, Matt Baume is great! Jose does some really cool stuff too.

Gen xers without yall rap and video games wouldn't exist

Shelter Two was it Jose who did that deep dive into Roseanne? Because that was amazing!

I'm glad you said this - I was about to say the same thing. Matt's videos on shows like All in the Family reminded me those shows were some of the first places as a kid that I ever heard of queer people. And they taught me important lessons that my family never bothered to teach. I still would have had self-hatred as a bisexual, but it would have been worse without people like Norman Lear.

Definitely hell yeah!

Yes!!!

Me too!!

I just discovered T1J this week. I would totally stick around for general pop culture analysis.

Yep. I don't think people can accept that doing your research when people raise issues, making your own stance clear, then continuing to be receptive to criticism raised of your stance is the right thing to do with anyone you promote if you have a platform.

Rose Tico in TROS comes to mind...

Ikr? I'm a bit scared of the things I'm trying to write, and I would count as a minority

@@aimlessf yeah i get that cuz im also trying to write stories but i get scared that i might missrepresnt someone (ex. lgbtq+) and get bullied off the internet :((

I, too, am a han jisung enthusiast

I think some of the problems lies in that distinction? By creating a character that just happens to be black and/or gay, rather than deliberately black or gay, does a creator run the risk of erasing that identity? Ppl are all different, but one shouldn’t forget that identity can and does affect how someone sees the world. I think for good representation there should be a middle ground.

Yes, like in new doctor who seasons 1-4 Mikey was a great character with a great arch who happened to be black, likewise with Martha Jones seasons 2-4, but in the latest seasons 11-12 it just seems like the characters are there to be like "look we have a black character! They're character traits is that they're black"

I also have a problem with shows that are only marketed as black shows As a black person I always get the wrong kinda vibe from primarily all these black family sitcoms on netflix A lot of them are probably really good shows but i get rubbed the wrong way when there is “black family” in the description or “black” in the shows title I may be bitching and ranting and it isn’t actually that bad but i always get that vibe

sigh824 you can normally tell when a minority is only added to a show for representation For example the character is introduced to deliver a storyline about racism or homophobia then completely becomes a plot device or a walking bag of meat that is meant to only say things when the writers dont know who else to add to a scene for the rest of the show/movie

Also when the only important trait they have is the minority they belong to, they don't mention any other personality trait, or flaws, or goals, nothing, just that, and it makes them such a flat and boring characters.

I'm curious what opinions you've shared that feminists have shouted you down for. As someone who considers myself a feminist (though I don't always agree with every type of feminism, ie terfs and lipstick feminism), I'm wondering if I share similar biases because I too am able-bodied

Well, that's basically what someone people call "White feminism". It's not about white Feminist women, but those "feminists" that only care about the middle/high class white abled cute neurotypical woman, and if you don't fit that, then you don't have a say or they tell you to go "fight your own fight" as if your problems don't come from misogy too, lol

@@Gloss613 Fair enough

And thats on not being an intersectional feminist. Sorry u have to deal with that shit

Similar experience with TERFs sorry bud

Black Red Guard is another great one.

Just gonna shout out: Jarvis Johnson, Mac Does It, AJayII, Andrew Huang, & COLORS (curation channel of music artists from around the world) :)

angie speaks is really good and has a lot of topics that other youtubers dont tend to talk about even other breadtubers

Yeah they are pretty much the only two Black KZfaqrs I watch consistently lol

I'd like to shout out Nathan Zed! One of my favorite KZfaqrs

A great example of tokenism!

TheBashar327 are you sure about that

Linda I how wouldn't it b pls explain

It felt like they put John Boyega in the movies just for that shock value when he takes off the helmet and is black. But then they basically finished up his story line by the beginning of the second movie and he barely mattered as a character in the story by the end of the movies. It was pretty disappointing because the base of his character’s story was interesting and could have been complex.

spongeboob I don’t think that’s tokenism it’s just bad writing. If it was really just for shock value I don’t think he’d have an ark at all. I’m sure they were expecting to get points from the public for including the character but his role in the story was large atleast in force awakens, and he had a character completely I depended of his race. The idea that he is there just for the shock value of one scene feels like pretty weak speculation.

I mean, how else are we going to solve problems if we aren't even listening to the right people whose voices need to be heard? Are we just going to magically find out about the problems by ourselves? Seriously, how does that friend think we're going to solve problems related to gender, orientation or racism/colorism without talking or listening to the people who are affected by the problem? How would anyone know about anything without communicating to others about it? I don't understand that friend ugh 💀

@@papasscooperiaworker3649 They're a bad friend for sure. I had a friend like that (I'm white she was half white half Puerto Rican) She used her race to make me feel inferior to her and used her "victim" status to shame me despite her privileged upbringing. She constantly told me I didn't have a right to consume media created by minorities because I was white

When modern ideas of race are based off white people decapitating people to observe which skulls are more beautiful and putting white people at the top or murdering indigenous people if they dont convert to christianity... and making a cast system based on skin colour (and something something slavery) then this is kind of what we get

Idkkkk isnt it kinda racist to just group all "minorities" into a single group as opposed to white people. Dont all races deserve to be distinct and classified individually? ALSO isnt colored people actually fucking racist? Tell me what the difference between that and "people of color" is? They're the same exact phrase.

@@srfrancium9728 why do you follow the racist white men's tradition of making cast systems based on skin color? I mean it seems you view race through the lenses of oppressed or oppressor, instead of flat out hate but still. Don't the obvious divides in class and power have fucking nothing to do with race? I mean yeah the people in power are mostly white, but that doesnt mean all white people are automatically privileged or they hold any power over someone of another race lmfao... so why still subscribe to the narrative? The obvious answer is the democratic establishment wastes a lot of their time on identity politics instead of getting fucking free healthcare, or stopping corruption because they know stupid people will buy into it. Tribalism sells, ending corruption not so much.

@@Courier_333 Referring to anyone as any race is inherently kind of racist since it has heavy roots in implying that each race is a different species. (ex:Caucasian coming from earlier thoughts of race being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid and still being used today) From what I can tell "person of colour" is a response to America's "melting pot" (but not really ecks dee) singling out brown people/ not white people by what their parents, grandparents, or even ancestors that are long dead are. Ie: very little African Americans are actually from africa, yet also actual Africans aren't labeled as American but as African solely. It's definitely contextual because of American views kind of only recognizing white people as Americans. But yet in Mexico the distinction of Mexicans as different "races" is a response to indigenous erasure, basically "all lives matter" from European colonizers x2. Making the distinction of white people and people of colour is due to the fact that while every person of colour experiences (institutional) racism differently they're all treated as lesser by a society that values white people or is the after affects of a society that values white people. All descriptors of race are inherently kind of racist just due to races origins, it's weird.

@@srfrancium9728 I dont see how putting more emphasis on race isnt causing more racism inherently. Like yeah I actually dont think of what fucking skin color someone is when I'm talking to them. Like jesus I know racism is real. But let's face it, this racial tension is manufactured by the racist media to make people forget about the real problems. The elites truly dont want low income Africans Americans to rise out of power. They want to keep us down. So why do we accept their paradigm? Why do we accept that minorities are deserving to be classified apart from blacks? They want us to be separate

Context? What's going on? Thanks

@@andrewfurusawa4609 watch her latest video on cancel culture, that made everything very clear for me.

Contra deserved it.

@@KhayJayArt I'm not sure if anyone deserves an unrelenting wave of online hate and curse words directed against them. Doesn't look very constructive to me. Also, Contra made much more efforts to help gender non binary people than most people on KZfaq - and yet she gets all the hate for making a few minor mistakes.

The people hating on her these days mostly aren’t attacking her content, but over Twitter Drama. She’s taken out of context constantly and she has problematic tweets and doesn’t apologize for them (and being “problematic” shouldn’t be a death sentence, and it USED to mean “warrants further conversation” not the current meaning of “needs to be buried”.) But her content is doing a HELL of a lot more good for progressive, trans, and non-binary people than the people screaming at her are. It’s saying “the years of work this person has done are outweighed by their invalidating hot takes (and by hating them I’m a better activist than they are)” Cancel Culture is slacktivism at its most toxic.

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 that last paragraph... exactly

yessss

Conversely, you can be the only racial minority in the story and still be a good character. It just can't be your defining characteristic.

Frank McManus You’re a really lit 55 year old

I wouldn't say that there's as many of these individuals as you think, in all honesty. I live on a fairly liberal college campus, and still very rarely encounter such individuals. When i do, it's quite common for me to also encounter very far right ideas (e.g. the time white supremacists posted posters and swastikas all over campus). I mostly encounter such ideas on the internet, where the novelty of such extreme opinions allows them to be amplified. This is just my experience, but i think it is pretty common

@@sunburntsatan6475 I agree with you. I haven't encountered much of this in real life either - but I think online life is also important, and can have big implications beyond the internet. The ugliness I often see from people whose values I share is deeply disturbing to me.

Ironically they can thank massively flawed and brilliant individuals such as William Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg for paving the way to the lifestyles they now enjoy openly. Modern "liberalism" takes itself for granted, and offers nothing to the true freaks and outsiders. Of course, most of these self-professed liberals are effectively indistinguishable from a staunch conservative in terms of lifestyle, and the vast majority of them have never even heard of a Rainbow gathering. They're basically just conservatives with snazzy accoutrements, accoutrements which would have earned them a lengthy stay in the nuthouse and shock "therapy" five decades ago.

I say talk to more leftists and try not lean so hard on your qualia. Our experiences carry the weight of validity AND our scope of the world is very limited. It is unfortunate those in the left you've come across have not been empathic or kind. In the kindest way possible I say, please don't write us all of because of those encounters 🙂💜 And of course you make some great points. Virtues and ethics are not supposed to be of convenience. Otherwise what use or integrity do they actually have -- too true 💜

I think these things change when the fictional characters existed before and it gets changed. It doesn't has to fit into the story to be diverse.

​@ Pretty much this. Character is written as "X". Character should stay "X" unless there is a good reason to change their race - and just "Because being X isn't explicitly necessary for the character." isn't a good reason to change it. This isn't to say that you can't change X for any reason, but just "We want more Y because we have too much X!" isn't a good reason. And if you do decide to change X into Y, you have to commit fully to it and understand what it is you're doing, because most of the time, X and Y aren't completely interchangeable. The biggest example I can think of off the top of my head is Johnny Storm being black in the last Fantastic 4 movie. It COULD have worked... if the they had also made Sue Storm black. There was a lot of uproar over it, but most legitimate uproar to it would have been tamped down with making Sue black. They didn't just change the race, they changed the entire relationship between Sue and Johnny - adopted siblings have a different kind of relationship than biological siblings. Dynamics will change. There's always the fear that the non-related child (Sue) will be cast out in favour of the blood-related child (Johnny). There's also the possibility of incest, particularly when you've got such intelligent people involved. ("Incest is a biological instinct that manifests in a social manner to avoid the genetic issues that are inherent in inbreeding, but as we're not genetically related, so the only manifestation is social. We can deal with that.") In the end, making Johnny and his dad Black only highlighted the fear that the Geek/Gamer/Nerd community (and the wider American audience) were too racist to accept an interracial relationship between a black Sue Storm and a white Reed Richards, and causes the attempt to backfire. (Didn't help matters that the movie itself was... a failure on all levels. I liked it, but it was a failure.) It made them Tokenized characters.

@@thatotherguy8138 I feel like there's never a good reason to change a persons skin color/sexuality because the original person put there heart and soul into it showcased their thoughts and feelings. And if a person different to them feels strongly about something they should write about it. Changing an established character diminishes whatever the next person is trying to accomplish. It's like changing Robin hood into a black guy. Why? All audiences will see are the black community trying to get recognition with none of the heavy lifting it took to create a beloved character. It also spits on already lesser known established black characters. Changing a characters race or sexuality will never work how the previous character worked, because race and sexuality mean nothing.

@@SaturdayParker Valid points. I believe something different (as seen in my post on the subject), but I absolutely see the validity in your points. If someone was in a position to create something using characters you created, I would hope that they would respect your viewpoint and kept true to the characters you wrote.

Says the person who probably cries racism whenever a piece of media that's set in Europe's past doesn't have enough black people.

I think it’s important to keep because it’s generally used as a blanket term for black people who have a American nationality, but aren’t sure what their general ethnicity is because of slavery and displacement or a general lack of family records.

@@keirstynamponsah4224 But what then do you call Blacks who do not have American nationality?

Then there are some people in the black diaspora that do even want to be identified with black Americans. Sad but true

@@TheKaiyannashow As a ginger I can relate to feeling different to those around me, but I never based my identity around that.

omg i really like this pov

I might suggest that the reason a lot of white creators might feel a need to have such justification is that they know that these characters, far more than any white character they may write, is going to be under the most intense scrutiny. This is why male creators put a ton more effort into female characters, and straight creators put more into LGBTQ+, and so on. There is a genuine fear that rather than someone eloquent, compassionate, and empathetic taking the time to help with criticism, they are going to be accosted by everyone looking to get a little clout on the internet by demanding cancellation and demonizing them. I try to put at least a little faith in people. I try to assume that everyone wants a few basic things: To leave a mark (however small) on the world, to have a place where they feel at home and safe, and to not be denied happiness. I have been burned by this a time or two as people have sought to make their mark by stepping firmly on my face, but I still very much want to believe that we all are good at the core. All it takes for the characters that they put so much time, dedication, research, and nuance into to become the reason they can never create again is a differing viewpoint from a loud enough 'speaker'. And on the subject of viewpoints, there are commonalities and differences in every person's viewpoints. I may not wear this label and you do, but we can both have that feel where you spent the only cash in your wallet that day on an ice cream cone because, damn it, you had a hard week, and then the ice cream falls off the cone and you stare at it in a mixture of emotions, like "Of course, because why not?" and "NO! That was my one kindness to myself and you will NOT take it away." I agree with you that these minorities shouldn't have to be justified, but I agree with T1J that we really ought to consider the intent of the writer. If I write a character with a marginalized trait, it is because I feel that there is something salient in the trait being there, not because I think, "Dem Lefties gonna come for me if what I write is all white guys." They can just as easily come for me if they think I messed up the marginalized character.

I personally experience tokenism a little different. On terms of skin colour and such I wholeheartedly agree, I'm not American, so I can't really say about prejudice and left over segregation, but it does seem reminiscent of it. But with different sides of tokenism, like sexuality, it bugs me how certain media handle inclusion, which does remind me of tokenism more. A persons skin colour doesn't matter, if you have a book it will often be only sparsely described for the main characters if at all, so when it is even mentioned it tends to be a character important enough to also be decently fleshed out. With a series it tends to be more obvious, and it only kinda bugs me or strikes me as odd in two types of situations. Where the main characters are all white and one of the most important side characters or even multiple are "minorities" from an American point of view, yet only those few. Or when the group of main characters all have a different ethnic background. So in other words, where the inclusion is to such a degree that it kinda smacks you in the face with it, or where it seems like a character was just inserted to be inclusive without having to give the character a real role in the story. Neither of which are inherently bad, but they do tend to feel like tokenism to me. But with sexuality it lies a little different for me. Since of most characters and in most stories, the sexuality of a lot of characters is irrelevant. So when it gets mentioned that a side character is LGBT+ and such, in a bunch of shows it is made a big thing and it is told to you, the viewer, that such and such character thinks this way or that and why that is good/bad. And I really can't stand that way, since for me it gets in the way of the story when such a political statement is told to you. I love it however when it is done by including it in the world, by showing you how that world is. For example, Avengers Endgame had a moment where cap helped people who lost loved ones to continue along their lives, in which one of them was gay. It is very small, but it wasn't made a big deal, it wasn't made to be out of place but instead it was shown to us that the world the MCU took place in, or at least one of the main characters, didn't give a shit about it. It was completely normal like it should be, and for some reason this stuck with me because of how little it is handled this way (from my experience). Of course these things don't apply when the overarching story deals with prejudice or discrimination because of such points, but yeah, these are the situations I see/experience tokenism. And particularly with sexuality and such it really stands out to me when it is done badly.

DyslecticAttack tbh i considered the Endgame cameo to be tokenism: representation breadcrumbs. It was a blink and u miss it (I actually did in theaters) character, that had no name, does nothing, had one line and never shows up again. Sure, it wasn’t a big deal, but that made it all the easier to ignore him and pretend it didn’t happen at all. I think good “isn’t a big deal” rep is something like Craig of the Creek, the main character is black and it’s not really commented on, but it’s not forgotten either.

You've blown my mind away sir. It makes so much sense.

Personally when it comes to books or media, I don’t care who wrote it, I care about the quality of the book/media. Majority of the time, especially for books I don’t even know who wrote it

God, I’m so tired of watching every LGBT+ character’s character arc literally just be coming out or finding out, it would be so easy to entangle other issues and struggles in their life to make them more complex so they grow and change as person *along* with finding out their sexuality, but yet it always feels like every book does the same thing over and over and just sticks to the basic “coming out story”

It’s more only choosing to read a book because it was made by a women I feel like it’s tokenism unless you read multiple accounts

If you've got a pool playing menthol smoking getaway driver who calls people jive turkeys, that's tokenism. If you've got a dude who's sick of working his desk job and wants some excitement and happens to be good at driving, that's an actual character. It's a case by case basis and you have to look carefully to see the difference.

@@roastingghosts1302 how about a gay story line that's about the character trying to break those ingrained stereotypes , or one about a character finding love but outside of the rampant sex,drug and alcohol abuse, or even one about a character having to change a person's beliefs about them jist by being themselves its honestly so frustrating that all gsy stories revolve around coming out , acceptance of peers or sex it gets really old

Jose is great!

PopCaltureDetective vids seemed insightful to me, but don’t watch it continually, it can get discouraging.

@@FaySwine What do you mean by "discouraging"? More in the disheartening sense because he talks about how awful things are?

@@camelopardalis84 I don't know what they meant, but I ruined The Big Bang Theory for my BF, and he enjoyed it before. I think it's a great channel.

Yeah, it’s more along those lines. It covers pop-culture issues on sexism from a perspective I hadn’t come across before; in a reasonable manner. Of course I don’t have cable, so I’m somewhat reliant on the examples they give. Really, it’s just that they take the message very seriously, ( as they should) and so they don’t talk about anything for fun. If you don’t allow yourself a break from the serious in life, it will get depressing.

@Black Knight Fool Once again you jumped to the wrong conclusion. NO ONE SAID REGARDLESS OF QUALIFICATIONS!!!!! The reality is that for many jobs the level of qualifications was not that high to begin with (secretaries, receptionist, office help, etc.). Of course the person has to have the skills or potential. Simple business sense says if you have many customers who fall into a certain category, then you should also have them represented within your company. It is a huge stretch to say if 40% of your population is "x" that you cannot find 10 or 15% who are qualified to work in your business. The justification that John Kennedy set out is that people were deliberately kept out before, then you must take affirmative or positive action to bring people in. It's not enough to say "we no longer discriminate". You have to take action to be inclusive.

@Herb Coleman I would argue depending on the job, hire those even a bit under qualified. Chattel Slavery, and the very recent Jim Crow, artificiality promoted under qualified white while hindering very qualified Black people which resulted in a population with less experience over time. That time must be made up.

@@godofthisshit , so two wrongs make a right? Asian students are suing Harvard because now they are being "lumped in" with white people and being required to perform higher on entry tests than other non-white students. Just so you know, I grew up most my life believing (with some reservations about fairness) I'd say supporting affirmative action. Steven Crowder did an excellent video in his "Change my Mind" series about affirmative action that I'd recommend anyone watch. And if you don't agree with it, I'm not gonna judge you stupid or biased. But I thought the conversation was pretty good. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/i8x1npuGr6_bhJc.html Part 1 kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kM6VistiyLOzdoE.html Part 2

@@TheBashar327 Affirmative Action was created for Black Americans, that's who should get it. Asian Americans benefited from Affirmative Action so only gratitude should be giving. The group taking admission slots from Asian Americans are legacy admissions, but that would require confronting mostly white people and we know how non Black people in America fall short on that. *Harvard was literally built on the backs of Black American, no slander, or complaining will be tolerated.* America haven't done right by Black Americans who are the descendants of American slavery, so the nerve of Canadian Crowder or anyone else to bitch.

@@TheBashar327 If you're American, I suggest you study your country history and it's present because from your "two wrongs" comment, I can tell that you are ignorant about this nation.

so true. i am indian, not american, but american media has been a part of my life since forever and it also struck me as odd that so many shows and films had like that one black character (usually male) who never got to develop as much as the other people in the story. in recent years tho i have sought out and experienced american stories about people other than white guys and it feels good man 😅

As a black girl I hope you don't worry too much. I mean most people can pass as white. And skin diversity doesn't matter as long as you have diversity of opinion. I'm not saying don't have different races, I have different kinds of races in my book because I love different people but I still love the simplicity of Full House. P.S. A lot of ppl are mad at Friends for being in New York and having an all-white cast. But with them affording there big apartments and the city being cleaner than it is, I don't think they were going for realism. Hope this helps bye!

@@SaturdayParker PREACH. Thank you for this. Honestly (as a white dude, though I hate this clarification), I hardly think about racial "diversity" at all. I watched the entire Fast and Furious franchise and didn't even realize until recently that there's basically only one white dude in the main cast. Virtually the entire cast is non-white. It didn't bother me one bit. Why would it? Why would anyone care about the racial makeup of the cast? I care about good characters, good stories, and yes, diversity of opinion and ideas like you said.

I think that looking at percentages can help you recognise gaps or people that are missing from a story. It can be a useful starting point, not an end goal. For instance: once I saw the World Health Organisation stats that roughly 30% of the global population is disabled or has an ongoing health condition I realised how many stories don't show disability. I realised the extent to which that was missing. But it didn't help me recognise good vs bad representation the way watching/reading stuff by disabled people did.

Bruh same.

Morgan Freeman always plays god in things so I actually now have the belief gods humansona is Morgan Freeman. If god exists.

@@CandyApples4ever God is Morgan Freeman, and Morgan Freeman is god

@@Tigershark_3082 Exactly. To say otherwise is just blasphemy.

Too many people make a judgement on an issue based on emotional impact, and worse can't articulate logically why they choose a certain position, thus affirming it was probably based on emotion rather than reason or logic which makes the position look bad.

Non binary is not a thing

@@Victorhugo-gx8dq victor hugo is also not a thing as of 135 years ago