“Chess doesn’t drive people mad, it keeps mad people sane.” - former British chess champion William Hartston

That's why people need a therapist in their team if they are serious competitors. When your whole life is driven by a purpose and then you lost that purpose, it's possible to collapse inside.

Great conversation, guys. This kind of question, also applied to scientists and politicians &c, has interested me for a long time. Good to have your take on the chess world. Thanks!

29:10 They weren't trying to bring Morphy out. Morphy was already dead. In fact, the match was organized after his death _precisely because_ the world's best player wasn't in question before then.

"Death Sport" LOL

LOVE the topic. 100% with David over Jesse on Magnus's choice not to play. If this is a death match and an insane format. Change the format. We need less broken WC's and a more realistic challenge. Also the soviet WC players did not not talk publicly, no info does not mean they are sane... Finally Tal had health and drug issues and burned out like an exploding star. He did not make the list... Mental health and physical health needs to be central to training. Add these to the dojo study plans.

Kostya: "... and no judgment, we're all doing chess here full time so we're all... ... in this together." I think he wanted to say crazy. 🙂 Chess history is fascinating and I could have listened for another hour. Really enjoyed the episode.

I think it's sad that creating immortal works of art isn't a motivation to continue. maybe it's the ego and selfishness that's at the root of the crazy.

Thanks for convincing me to not become world champion! -A 1700 who was definetly going to become world champion until now

Do not go gentle into that good night

The Zukertort info was new to me. Any good sources on it. I read the Wikipedia for back ground. Would love to learn more.

I am not, and never will be, a chess master of any level. So, I take comfort in knowing that chess will not drive me insane. I do have some concern about my fascination with trying to make the French defense work despite knowing that Caro-Kann is better.

Ding carries the stigma of being an accidental champion. Everyone knows that Magnus is the best player in the world. Karpov dealt with that after being awarded the title when Fischer abdicated.

Sosonko has written thousands of words about the players of of the Soviet era, and he never implies that match fixing was at all common

47:57 I'd like Kramnik to answer this question: "what do you think your statistics rating is?". Not that anyone can pin him down to a concrete answer on any question.

You can tell Jesse's mindset is a product of growing up during the Cold War given how much he constantly criticizes Russia and the Soviet Union.

Judit Polgar said that Vichy was very tricky, particularly at blitz!

"Fight for the coconuts" LOL

Another reason Phillidor is the Greatest of All Time. He had the mental fortitude to be No.1 and not go kray kray.

All hail the next world champ Mr.Gukesh! thank ye

Lots of weird theories in this one 🙃 Maybe "chump GMs" and IMs can go crazy, too? 😂

Vishy having a segment is wild

Kasparov wrote about how wonderful Lizz Truss was as UK Prime Minister, which for any Brit is quite scary.

When I observe what's happened to Kramnik as well as Ding, I can't help but wonder whether it's the result (partial or otherwise) of something that we've recently seen across all other areas of life, including other professional sports: PASC. Tarjei Svensen's chess24 article titled Ding Liren: "I need to calm down a bit!" might offer a clue in regard to this. It's not something most chess players (or people in general for that matter) want to think about anymore, and so the risk remains hidden and ignored. Frankly, I don't believe GM David Smerdon's December 2022 on cognitive performance did the chess world any favours either since it didn't consider the longer term effects of ignoring the unmentionable elephant in the room.

The stresses of the crown and the associated risks to one's mental health are the principal reasons why I myself have never been willing to participate in a world championship match, despite the temptation for me to play.

You guys said that all the Societ Champions didnt go crazy, but I think you could make a case for Tal. He's a little different though, since I think he was just naturally a weird guy and that has nothing to do with the World Championship.

For Ding I guess it is the Havanna syndrom. I would not play a WC match agains a russian. The risk of getting poisoned is simply to high. As luck has it, I am not a candidate for a WC match ;-)

Time stamp please

Tl;dw: Kostya: "Chess is driving me crazy and I'm very stressed" Jesse: "Cool!" David: "Feel free to rage on us in the comments" 😂

It is my hypothesis that people with high-level IQ working in stressful situation have a higher percentage chance of cracking. Hollywood has often used this as a story ark for many characters. It doesn’t matter if it’s Chess, physics, etc. I think the combination of high genius, IQ level and high intensity stress for long period time can be detrimental

Interesting point about Soviet and Russian players before and after Perestroika. I suppose in the Soviet era top players were part of a culture in which chess was respected and the state devoted serious resources to the game, whereas in the US Grandmasters were sometimes homeless and obsession with the game regarded as pathological, aberrent. I think Jesse is right to mention Kasparov, whose eccentricity is often underplayed. Carlsen stepping away because the matches are too gruelling is surely proof of sanity though.

Didn't Kotov give Alekhine a kind of Soviet stamp of approval, in the end, in his book?

Great podcast. Read The Royal Game by Stefan Zweig. And Jesse : Magnus is sound and healthy, thank God for that. He chose life instead of madness

🔥

Seems obvious that the problem is that chess is a seductive abstraction that has little to do with real life. To be great involves addiction, which can shut out huge areas of life and its possibilities equally as valuable and all too human. This is particularly a problem if chess is the only thing you're good at. The sane great players had other interests. Lasker (philosopher and mathematician) and Capablanca (diplomat). The Soviet School emphasized other pursuits that required a wider education: electrical engineering, opera, piano. They center you in a way that chess doesn't. I once talked to Kasparov about politics. My sense is that while he's interesting, he knows less than he think he does. Perhaps Kramnik is another example. I personally know of two chess tragedies: one death, one jail. Magnus gave a lecture at either Oxford or Cambridge. He was humble, but in an interesting way. Unlike Kasparov who was spreading "Truth." Magnus also had a good and close family. You also have to wonder if Jesse isn't the one who's broken. Why isn't he projecting his own issues, goals and insecurities? Magnus said recently that he plays chess for fun. He doesn't play it a la Freud and Fine to kill his father. He already has his reputation. Music is one of the other prodigy activities along with chess and math. I knew a great mathematician, a chess master in his youth. He played games until the day he died, but he switched to Go. He found it more interesting. I once asked him to help me with differential equations. He called the subject cookbook stuff, treating it with contempt. Then there's Pablo Casals. Asked why he continued to practice into his 90s he said, because I think I'm getting better. My sense is that music is more life-affirming. It's not about beating other people, it's about self-improvement and exploring an infinite mystery. Happiness is sometimes defined as a worthwhile goal with a pleasant enjoyable journey. Mastering an instrument is also a struggle. But the wins and losses are daily and endless.

Tal only started his drinking and chain smoking after he started playing chess!!!!

Everyone loved Tal, and he was a genius, but he certainly lived with mad abandon: rivers of alcohol, kilos of drugs, warehouses full of cigarettes, and partying until dawn!

I don't see Ding as crazy. He has never done anything "crazy". He may not be in form BUT "crazy" is way too far.

No, the reason magnus isnt playing is because it doesnt pay enough. If 10 million was there, hed be playing.

Which John Donaldson book about Fischer?

Rubinstein developed major mental problems as he got older.

I agree with Frank Brady regarding Fischer. Bobby was not mentally ill he was just not a very nice person.

Ding will pass the title to Wei Yi and he gonna win over Gukesh ... than Magnus will come back because he won't have to face the Petroff ... and i would like to have your opinions about Chucky ... does he lost his mind before beeing champ ?

"Trans man" means a female who identifies as a man. "Trans woman" means a male who identifies as a woman. Just a clarification.

I had to permanently mute my chat because people kept accusing me of cheating when they blundered like 1600 jabronis.

It's not just world champions, how about Paul Morphy. There's a very thin line between genius and insanity!

Diego Maradona became a great football player because he was addicted to the game. After his sports career he found new addiction with cocaine and politics. He was never very good at playing normal.

So, Morphy was "trans", but I guess we can no longer draw an obvious connection between that behavior (dressing in his mom's clothing, etc.) and the state of his mental health. William Hartston's quote always comes to mind when this topic is discussed. He said, "chess doesn't drive people crazy; it keeps crazy people sane." Maybe. And Martin Amis' take about chess being beautiful but also somehow unclean also rings true.

The topic of this episode was very rude and shameful. The level of these three guys was far from the level of world champions, but they were talking about the possible problems of world champions. Maybe this was the reason for the lack of education of these three guys.