Does it matter? Colour spaces and editing/printing your photos

Does it matter? Colour spaces and editing/printing your photos - what to use and what to ignore

Рет қаралды 5,883

Күн бұрын

Keith looks at what colour spaces he uses for editing images and how it relates to monitor choices and printing. Do you need a large gamut monitor and how big a colour working space is needed.
How much difference does this really make when printing or putting images onto the web.
There is an extended article covering the content of this video, which also cover things like rendering intents and image adjustments for printing:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/a...
The Colour management book referenced can likely be found used
"Real World Color Management " Fraser et al
ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0321267222
ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0321267221
'Photoshop for photographers' M Evening
ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0240520289
ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0240520285
See here for the Colour management chapter from the CS3 book [still relevant]
www.photoshopforphotographers....
Keith's recent video looking at printing bright colours
• Printing photos - gett...
For details of all of Keith's print related articles, reviews and videos see:
www.northlight-images.co.uk/p...
00:00 Start
01:45 Some bright colourful images
02:47 Photographing bright colours
03:48 Camera colour space?
04:23 Not getting worried over sRGB
06:30 Processing images and colour spaces
08:18 Editing on smaller gamut screens
09:35 Using an even bigger colour space
10:50 Editing colours you can't see?
12:10 An aside: Why I use ProPhoto for B&W
13:15 Working at 16 bit
14:06 Knowing what's in your image
18:05 Comparing with what a print can manage
20:18 A different paper - what's different?
21:03 Rendering intents?
22:20 An overview

Пікірлер: 118

@eoslove2022 Жыл бұрын

We own Canon Pro 1000/100 printers. We print on glossy, matte and metallic papers from MOAB and Hahnemühle and edit in the Prophoto color space on a calibrated monitor displaying in Adobe RGB. We always check the gamut warnings before a print and always use Relative Colormetric with Black Point Compensation. We do all of this because we subscribe to your channel for the most informative technical discussions of printers, papers and file editing; this has yielded consistent results beyond our expectations. Thank you.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Glad to have helped! - Thanks

@johnvaleanbaily246 Жыл бұрын

Just ordered Colour Management (second hand). Always looking to learn. Thanks Keith..

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Excellent - hope it's a good read!

@johnvaleanbaily246 Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper I suspect not a 'good read' as in John Sandford or Tom Clancy, but a knowledge based read and reference :) Thanks again.

@AndrewBerube41 8 ай бұрын

This video has been beyond helpful, thank you.

@KeithCooper 8 ай бұрын

Thanks - glad it made sense!

@AndrewBerube41 8 ай бұрын

I just started the printing part of photography. Does definitly cleared up some confusion. I ordered the book also l o l.

@KeithCooper 8 ай бұрын

The book should help too! - you likely only need the first few chapters ;-)

10 ай бұрын

I am becoming a hardcore fan. Ha ha! Love your no-nonesense approach to colour spaces and generally everything you talk about. Another great video.

@KeithCooper 10 ай бұрын

Thanks!

@MoD_Master_Of_Disaster_ Жыл бұрын

Hi Keith, I believe this is THE best video on colour management I was able to find you YT by far. Well explained, and as always packed with information. Thank you.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Glad it was helpful! As I mention in the video - buy the book ;-) BTW I also found this PDF from the Martin Evening book I mentioned. www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscs3/download/PSCS3_colmanage.pdf

@ffoeguk Жыл бұрын

I have a Canon pro 300 arriving in the morning, looks like I have a lot to learn. Looking forward to your instruction on YT.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Hope you enjoy it! If you've not seen it, check my main [written] review of the PRO-300, it contains links to all my pro-300 videos/articles www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon-pro-300-printer-review/

@colinmccrae1480 Жыл бұрын

Excellent presentation ... been in printing all my life from print, litho, proofing, prepress ... what you are teaching is so spot on and easy yo listen to ... Thank You.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - glad it's of interest!

@TheMrSneelock 7 ай бұрын

Keith, thank you so much.

@KeithCooper 7 ай бұрын

Thanks

@juliej8681 Жыл бұрын

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much! Just ordered the book. Great job, I learn so much from watching your channel!

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - so glad to have helped.

@linsi879 Жыл бұрын

Thanks for this one Keith. Ive been trawling the internet last few days on this topic and ended up down some rabbit holes. Cheers

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - glad it was helpful

@johnfletcher1036 Жыл бұрын

I am now the owner of the Color management book. Found it for £1.45, but postage was double that. The original price was £42.99. Will take some time to read - 602 pages!

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

For most photographers, several chapters are not that relevant, but you will understand commercial print and proofing ;-)

@gosman949 Жыл бұрын

Just ordered a used copy of the Color Management book from Amazon for about $2.50 plus shipping! Thanks for the advice!

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Excellent - hope it's worth it! ;-)

@hubercats Жыл бұрын

Very interesting and helpful video. Thanks, Keith! - Jim

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks

@paulgoodey3478 Жыл бұрын

Just like to say thanks for your tutorials, great work. Cheers Paul.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - glad they are of interest

@johnpollock6996 Жыл бұрын

Great video Keith. Early this year you and I swapped emails on portions of this video and I immediately bought a used copy of the book. It was quite a revelation regarding the complexities of trying to get ink on paper as I wanted. I still stumble amply, but I can't thank you enough for your advice then, and again today. Happy New Year!!

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks! All the best!

@terrymcgovern6846 Жыл бұрын

When I first entered into digital photography Bruce Fraser was my go-to guy for all things color management. Most of that I have forgotten, so I ordered the book, since I can't remember whether I had it before or not. I surely need a refresher anyway...The Martin Evening book I donated to our local library a couple of years ago.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Yes, both still survive on my bookshelf in easy to reach positions...

@bobabela Жыл бұрын

Took your advice, Keith, and ordered a copy of color management, 2nd edition. I’m sure it’ll come in handy. I am learning quite a bit from your KZfaq channel; thanks for sharing so much information. It is truly helpful.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Excellent - I hope it's of interest!

@liveinaweorg Жыл бұрын

Perfect timing. I managed to drop and break a monitor so am in the market for a new one. I'll need to absorb what you said. Thanks Keith.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Whoops... There are some good monitors available these days without spending a fortune.

@liveinaweorg Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper I just saw that you reviewed the BenQ SW240 Keith. Did you keep it for a while and if so did your opinion change at all? It's one of the two monitors I'm considering but I know you don't give recommendations so I'm not gonna ask for one :)

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

@@liveinaweorg For a small monitor I liked it, but this was not one I used for a long time... www.northlight-images.co.uk/benq-sw240-monitor-review/

@liveinaweorg Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper Thanks. So much to think about :)

@liveinaweorg Жыл бұрын

Decision made. BenQ SW270C meets the criteria.

@kenblair2538 Жыл бұрын

Thanks Keith. I've been back and forth with adobesrgb and srgb. I personally , don't see any difference between the 2 when printing . You confirmed my decision , if commercial clients don't see a difference with sRGB , I'm good with sRGB. Enough is enough . Serves my personal work. Thank you. KB

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - the main reason we send files [not prints] out in sRGB is that where they are going doesn't have the knowledge to use bigger colour spaces... Of course it helps that our commercial training can include colour management ;-)

@mauricehalfhide3982 26 күн бұрын

Very helpful. Thanks.

@KeithCooper 26 күн бұрын

Thanks

@futzalfan Жыл бұрын

Wonderful explanations! The larger format UV printers do not have ICC profiles as they are media independent; they do not absorb into the media they sit on top of it. Is that right? Have you spent any time with printing on the newer UV printers? My prints vary so greatly, not within the same photo mind you, but rather within different photos depending on color. Anything with Magenta is destroyed, blue prints out well for example, etc. Anyway, it would be nice to know if you've had any experience with the latest UV large format printers.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - I'm afraid I have very little direct experience of this sort of commercial print. Colour management and building/using profiles is possible for UV printers, but generally more complex. It depends on the software for print as well as the substrate. Add in white ink and spot colours for example and it becomes very different from the sorts of art/photo printing I do...

@fredwestinghouse2945 Жыл бұрын

Idea for a video - make the same print on the same paper type, one on a costly branded paper and another on a paper spectrum / fotospeed / permajet paper and show the similarities and differences.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

In a video? - If it's a similar paper, then you won't see any difference. I try and allude to that in most videos where I point out that there are only so many paper makers. However I have do a 20 year review policy of never comparing brands... I'll give it some thought though... ;-)

@fredwestinghouse2945 Жыл бұрын

Sure, I get your point about showing differences of similar papers on a YT video. As for comparing brands, you could do it without naming the brands - just state them as costly, average price, cheap as chips paper!

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, any detailed comparisons are pretty meaningless (for me) without a rigorous methodology. That methodology has to be defensible and backed up by evidence - life's too short and I get bored easily. It's been a guiding principle of my reviews for a long time - no spurious 'scores', gold stars, or even a 'best'. Cost brackets would be meaningless - sorry, my scientific research background intrudes occasionally... ;-)

@rlast123 Жыл бұрын

Great story, and references to books. Keith have you ever made a video or article about editing for print: what to do if some colors are out of gamut in the destination color space (though in-gamut with the working space) Saturation down? Highlights down? Whitpoint? Thanks for your excellent video’s

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

This one may help kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z76Snaqnu7C-gYk.html

@rlast123 Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper great! Thank you

@fredwestinghouse2945 Жыл бұрын

Variation on a theme (to my earlier post). Make a video as to why you would choose one type of paper over another for a particular image. Which images are best suited for a textured paper? How much texture in a paper is too much texture? How will texture enhance or interfere with an image? What is the difference between (super/premium/ultimate) gloss and baryta? Yes, some of this may be difficult to show on a YT video, but it is more your thought process that I am interested in. You may say something, part with some knowledge that I will find beneficial to my own prints. Thanks.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

I've covered aspects of this several times in different videos and articles Unfortunately YT is really difficult for search or present topics I need to look at index pages on the Northlight site for this This is where to start: www.northlight-images.co.uk/photography-articles-and-reviews/printing-paper-reviews-articles/

@alonzohollingsworth7712 Жыл бұрын

How can you tell what color spaces your printer is capable of printing? Is it better to turn color management so that the editing software is in control? Great video.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

The printer/paper colour space is defined by the paper icc profile. See the links in the notes, especially take time to read this: www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscs3/download/PSCS3_colmanage.pdf Colour management should always be used in editing software - it handles the necessary transformations of image data from camera file to print.

@agnieszkakj8867 Жыл бұрын

Thank you Keith. So informative video. But I've got question. My monitor display only sRGB- Nec MultiSync EA271U . Is that use to display RAW in any other colour profile? Will I get something extra information (camera set to Adobe RGB)? Or maybe I should change settings in camera because of the monitor. Sorry if that sounds stupid.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

No problem with editing on an sRGB monitor - I did it for years. You just need to appreciate how to check what's 'missing' [and whether it matters]. It can make a difference when working for print, but then this is why I always maintain a basic understanding of colour management helps It's not about some spurious notion of 'correct' - it just helps you get things 'right first time' more often ;-) Hence my suggestion of the book! It's why colour management features [to some extent] in almost all the bespoke training work I do...

@agnieszkakj8867 Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper of course I'll check if we have that book here in Poland ( English is not my mother tongue). Thank you.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

If you do find a good book in Polish, please let me know and I'll add it to the links on the web site!

@felitacavette3331 6 ай бұрын

Thank you for the great information. As a hobbyist who like to print and share my photos, do I need to have a monitor with 100% Adobe RGB?

@KeithCooper 6 ай бұрын

Thanks No - not really ;-) I used an sRGB Apple Cinema display for quite a few years - the key is understanding that the monitor is not the print and they will never actually match [and not worrying about it!] Sure, a wider gamut monitor makes things a bit easier, but knowing why is more important from my POV

@felitacavette3331 6 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper Thanks. 100%Adobe RGB can be pricey for me as a beginner who also needs a monitor for my "real work". Based on your advice, I think I'm going to look for a DCI-P3 to give me a little wider range.

@williamcollins5417 Жыл бұрын

What is the best to print from, Photoshop or Lightroom? I have watched several videos discussing both. Thank you.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

No argument here - I loathe Lightroom ;-) Photoshop gives me the fine control I want for big prints... Lightroom just tries too much to make it 'easy'. However, there is no 'best' to my mind - just what suits your desired outcomes and levels of expertise.

@hillscp Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the great content Keith. I edit in PhotoShop on a BENQ monitor. When I calibrate the monitor, I set the calibration to "panel Native". In Photoshop under Edit > Color Settings, I have my Working Space RGB set to the monitor calibration. After watching this I did some fiddling in Photoshop and found that there is a checkbox in the color settings that will make Photoshop warn you when there is a profile mismatch when opening a file, so I checked it. Since the camera is using A98 I get the warning when working with raw files. I get three choices - Use the embedded profile, convert to the working space, don't color manage. I opened a raw file I had of two cacti I took at the market a couple of years ago. One had brilliant red flowers and the other brilliant yellow. I opened it simultaneously in photoshop; once with "Use embedded profile" and the other with "Convert to working space". The image that was converted to the working profile shows significantly less gamut clipping than the one using the embedded RGB profile both in the red and yellow. Thing is I can't tell a bit of difference with my eyes ;). I suppose I'll just convert them to the working space from now on because it feels like the right thing to do. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to kill a couple of hours on a rainy northern California morning. I also took the opportunity to educate myself quite a bit on Soft Proofing in Photoshop which until now I had been doing in LightRoom.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Thanks - My only comment would be that a monitor space is not a working space - I'd not use it as one. I do calibrate the monitor to its native setting, but choose a regular working space. I've always thought the warnings should default on in Photoshop, but I've realised (based on teaching over the years) that needs a lot of extra explaining ;-) :-)

@openeye126 11 ай бұрын

Hi Keith - excellent video !!! Would you happen to have a video on the subject of "rendering intent" such as one comes across printing with Photoshop Color Synch ( not Printer ) where you explain the difference between perceptual, relative/absolute colorimetric ( and others which appear in the printing dialog )

@KeithCooper 11 ай бұрын

Thanks I don't have one specifically about that - it gets covered in quite a few of my colour management related ones looking at printing, soft proofing and the like. Your question emphasises so much my [personal] dislike of YT for a lot of my stuff, in that there is no easy way of searching/ linking content, as there is in my written work... This chapter from Martin Evening's Photoshop book is my number one recommendation [ignore the older Photoshop version - it makes not one jot of difference] www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscs3/download/PSCS3_colmanage.pdf The RI stuff starts at p586, but the entire PDF is required background reading for any of my training on colour management! ;-)

@openeye126 11 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper Thank you so much Keith ! I wished that someone would do a printer setting walk through with screen capture to demonstrate the different outcomes such as Photoshop handles the colours vs Epson printer handles the colours ...

@KeithCooper 11 ай бұрын

@@openeye126 Ah, I don't really do walkthroughs and never with screen capture. They are so specific to a particular setup or version of software/system that if you include enough detail for people who have that system, then it's often useless for others. All my videos tend to concentrate on the principles involved - the why, almost never the detailed how. It's also difficult to show subtle differences in video - given the compression of youtube and the unpredictable nature of whatever the video is being watched on. For example, my videos are never made with an eye to anyone watching them on phones... ;-)

@openeye126 11 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper thank you so much Keith, I just found the perfect solution

@ddsdss256 Жыл бұрын

Thanks and that is the question--if I'm unconcerned about client's needs, does it really matter what color space I use? Have you used DxO PhotoLab 6's Wide Gamut? I always shoot RAW+JPG in sRGB, process the RAW and convert it to 16-bit TIFF. It's not clear at this point what if any difference it makes which space I use (Wide Gamut or "Classic (Legacy)," the latter of which is Adobe RGB, but as said, I'm under no obligation to satisfy anyone other than myself. When I painted, I mixed colors according to my taste with no concern for reality (although as a non-objective abstract expressionist, "reality" was a nebulous term). Why should it make any difference in my photos? The only caveat is that I'd like my P900 prints to resemble what I see on my Benq PD3200U screen (as close as I can manage, given the obvious differences). PhotoLab offers gamut warnings (both monitor and destination) but in the extreme cases where they apply, those areas often need to be toned-down anyway as they don't look "real" (where that matters). That book is available second-hand, but I'm wondering how much benefit I'd get from it.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Ah, PL6 won't run on any computer of mine... I also only use DxO OP [now PL] for RAW conversion for some images - the files are then exported and edited in Photoshop. I've usually no problem with using A98 - it needs to be something particularly colourful for me to use ProPhoto. As you say, it what you find useful. One of the reasons I did this video was that I felt a lot of people were worrying far too much, when colour space choices were well down the list of actual issues with their photography ;-) All the detail and complexity of colour management gives another 'skill' to master in the craft based approach to photography - that and it's something you can spend money on to get 'improvements'. Yes, it's a big part of what I do, but it needs putting into context ;-) For me the book gives a sound basis to build your experiences on and tie them together - whether it be camera profiling, editing, lighting or printing. Martin's Photoshop book probably has more than enough practical colour management info for many...

@ddsdss256 Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper Thanks--so much to assimilate, so few hours in a day. Yeah, I'll probably get to that book as the more you know... I've read/re-read a lot of books on film photography (e.g., Ansel's "trilogy") and I've learned a lot from them, even though much of it (e.g., the chemistry) no longer applies directly in the digital world. The fundamental concepts don't change.

@oneeyedphotographer Жыл бұрын

I have been thinking about this for years. As I have it figured,, Adobe RGB and sRGB are both eight bits/channel colour spaces. The same values, 16.77 million of them, display differently. You don't get more colours with either one, you get different colours. Adobe RGB covers more of the colour spectrum, but there re bigger "holes" in the digital representation. I have a 27" BenQ, I can switch between sRGB, Adobe RGB and monochrome. For me, editing in Adobe RGB would be little more sensible than editing in monochrome. When I publish for the internet, I must publish in sRGB because that's what 98% of displays display. If I edit in Adobe RGB and then convert, what I publish is not what I was looking at. There is no prospect of them matching exactly what I was looking at. I have not thought of a good reason to print in Adobe RGB. My prospective audience is perfectly accustomed to seeing sRGB pictures, on TV and in print. Cameras print in 10, 12 or 14 bits per channel. Maybe some very expensive ones do 16. If Adobe Photoshop and Adobe Photoshop Lightroom Classic are working in 16 bits per channel, I think colour gamut has no meaning until the image is displayed. JPEGs cannot be converted, I don't understand why you would create Adobe RGB JPEGs in camera.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Ah, there is no 'bit depth' associated with spaces as such. They are defined in other ways. If you do limit it to 8 bit for example, then coverage of the larger spaces is indeed more sparse, but then again I rarely edit in 8 bit beyond web images. As for my prospective audience - I don't really care what familiarity with sRGB they have, I want to make prints I'm happy with, so work in A98 or ProPhoto [16 bit] for colour prints. Working in A98 or prophoto I may save versions for web in sRGB, they will look fine. given there is no way I can know how people will see them and on what, I'm not remotely worried about slight differences... A98 jpegs - I'd use them if printing directly printing from camera to printer, and didn't require any significant editing. They can be converted lots of ways... It all comes down to what works for you - the suggestion in the video cover what I do, they are not meant to be 'better' just what I use and why ;-)

@fredwestinghouse2945 Жыл бұрын

Does any company sell a sample set showcasing the same photo on a variety of papers? For example, a portrait on matt papers, a saturated sunset on gloss papers etc. This could give me an idea of which paper best fits my style. The same thing in a different way - are there any paper seller stores that one can visit and see such a sample of papers and prints? Yes, I could buy lots of papers and print my own images. But I really do not want to waste money doing that, nor having lots of paper lying around unused. So, it would be useful to have a small sample pack / catalogue of ready made images to look at. Do you know if there is such a thing anywhere in UK? Thanks.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Paper Spectrum used to keep lots of sample images at their old place near the Space Centre [in Leicester] - They have recently moved [in Leicester], so I've not seen what they have shipped over. I know both Permajet and Fotospeed have samples, but don't know what would be available to 'callers' - they don't [AFAIK] have 'shops' Other suppliers may have this too - especially if they go to the Photography Show or other trade shows I'd suggest ringing them and asking...

@fredwestinghouse2945 Жыл бұрын

Cool. Will try emailing/ringing the paper people. Ta.

@PopovskiDarko 7 ай бұрын

Thanks for explaining, I have another question, if I want to print my artwork and photographs for sale on my new printer canon pro - 4100 professional 44 inch printer that uses 11 colors, Do I need to have a monitor display that is capable of 99.9% Adobe RGB ? If I want to see those colors on the display, Because I have 2 IPS monitors 32 inch , One is Benq 100% SRGB , and the other one is LG ULTRA FINE DCI - P3 95% GAMUT , They are not showing full wide gamut spectrum of adobe RGB 99.5 % as those 2000+ dollars expensive monitors like Benq SWC321C that you reviewed, , basically do I need to buy a IPS 99% Adobe RGB monitor in order for me to print on my printer like that ? Thanks in advance for clarifying,

@KeithCooper 7 ай бұрын

No you don't absolutely need such a monitor - even my good monitors only display some of what can be printed [and vice versa] I spent years making prints and doing my commercial work on an sRGB monitor... the key is truly understanding that the screen and the print are two completely different things and that no screen will ever match a print... See al my stuff about test images and looking at prints.

@PopovskiDarko 7 ай бұрын

Thanks Keith, As I’m trying to learn all this technical aspects And from my understanding, once I finish working in Photoshop on an image in adobe RGB color space I can safely send it to print on my printer that is capable of large color gamut but from what you’re saying I do not need a Adobe RGB full coverage monitor in order for me to see that image on digital screen before I print, but basically the print will come out the way I sent it in Photoshop Even if my monitor Supports only SRGB ? Thank you again

@KeithCooper 7 ай бұрын

Yes - you just need to use some test images to get a feel for what things really look like. If you're using a printer like the 4100, take time to rally understand colour management @@PopovskiDarko

@PopovskiDarko 7 ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper I appreciate you always reply quickly not every KZfaqr does it, former Yugoslavian, greetings from Texas, by the way, I always loved British humor and pop music and of course the arts, and I love listening British accents

@ashqinmoe Жыл бұрын

What frustrates me with sRGB is that when it comes to gradients, such as something you get from a sky I have a problem where banding will appear where in ProPhoto it does not (this is on a colour accurate monitor) and visible/reproducible on other peoples devices. What I find interesting is that I know my images get converted to sRGB for print (I print directly from Lightroom or Photoshop where the image is in ProPhoto) and yet I don't see the similar banding on prints.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

There are lots of factors I've seen discussed associated with this. Often due to a conversion process somewhere - a small amount of Gaussian noise added can alleviate it. Also, if going from ProPhoto to sRGB, reduce the saturation before conversion and then raise it afterwards

@ashqinmoe Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper insightful, definitely something I need to experiment with in more detail.

@OrelRussia Ай бұрын

Hello, Keith! Could you, please, help me with my issue? I have an sRGB monitor and I had been always used sRGB color space for all my photos. I also have a film scanner that doesn't offer to save its scans in a raw format but it still uses internal raws. All raw converters that I know don't support this raw format but I can open them in Photoshop with some manipulations. What I found is that such raws don't look good (even positives). One day I tried to assign to such files an AdobeRGB profile and they started to look just right! Why is it so? My monitor can't show AdobeRGB colors. Also, how can I convert such scans into sRGB without loosing their good appearence? Whenever I do it, my scans begin to look dull once again.

@KeithCooper Ай бұрын

Not at all sure what you mean by 'raw' in respect of the scanner? What is the scanner? What software? Why stick to sRGB - just because I used to use an sRGB monitor, I still worked in larger colour spaces for some work.

@OrelRussia Ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper @KeithCooper It's a Noritsu lab scanner. In its native software (EZ Controller) one can select for its scans (jpeg or tiff) one of the two color spaces: 1. standard sRGB/AdobeRGB (If the image data has an embedded profile of sRGB or other than AdobeRGB, the image is displayed in sRGB color space. If the image data has an embedded profile of AdobeRGB, the image is displayed in AdobeRGB color space) and 2. sRGBfix (If the image data has an embedded profile, the image is displayed in sRGB color space). However, EZ Controller also saves raws of each scan on a PC. They are used by this software. They also can be opened in Photoshop. Images are opened without an assigned colour profile. If I assign sRGB, they look dull but if I assign AdobeRGB, they look just right. If I then save the files with the assigned AdobeRGB profile and open them with the standard Windows photo viewer, they look OK too. However, when I upload them to my cloud account and open them there online, they begin to look dull. So now I'm thinking what to do with these scans. Should I convert them to sRGB and somehow colour correct (I want to share some of them online) or leave them in AdobeRGB and hope that other people with their sRGB monitors will see them just like me (with my sRGB monitor)?

@KeithCooper Ай бұрын

Not a system I know about [the scanner or using windows ;-) ] The 'raw' scans likely need a scanner profile assigning and then converting to your working space. Cloud stuff sometimes does all sorts of unpredictable things too sRGB monitors display most A98 image perfectly well - I'd not bother about that bit ;-) However, I have to admit that you're using such a mix of software and devices that I've no experience of, that I cannot give a confident answer...

@OrelRussia Ай бұрын

@@KeithCooper thank you for your replies anyway!

@jbairdexp Жыл бұрын

Read a book? Are you mad? I demand to learn in small 5 minute chunks, ideally using videos lol Joking aside, that's great advice as was the rest of what you said. :-)

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

And, a book that is out of print as well!

@Notmy00000 Жыл бұрын

🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

@gchristopherklug Жыл бұрын

Keith: I would suspect you’ve talked about this someplace: have you done a video about paper or printer dynamic range? My goal is to unify the DR of the image and the output (printer) so that I can get predictable local contrast results. If you haven’t done this, can you point me to a resource to investigate?

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Not something I've covered, since I'm primarily concentrating on visual perceptions rather than measurements. I do obviously get data from profiling which would likely give the sorts of numbers you want, but it's not something I take any further [I know enough to know (some of) the vast areas where my theoretical knowledge is sparse...] My feeling is that one of the forums at Luminous Landscape might be a place to explore this, although once you get into modelling perceptual aspects it will take a deep dive into colour theory - just be sure to surface every so often for breath ;-) The other area to look is in the expert work of Dan Margulis?

@gchristopherklug Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper I understand what you mean about the visual perception trumping the data, but if the DR of the image exceeds the ability of the paper or printer to resolve and display, it seems to me that knowing that would allow more purposeful editing. Or do you think that’s crazy?

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

Ah - I have two hats in this discussion... My techy and scientific hat says yes, this might be useful, but could be very complex. My creative and photography hat says it's more about developing an understanding of how prints look and how they differ from any screen representation. That and truly accepting the screen as just one step on the way to the final print.

@gchristopherklug Жыл бұрын

@@KeithCooper But this is how master darkroom printers work; since silver gelatin paper has a specific range, you should try to engineer your negs to work within that range. If you don’t (and of course, often you cannot) you go through great lengths to make the neg work. Burning in the overexposed sky so that you can get detail there on the paper - that’s an example. Expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights, right? I know I’m simplifying. I laugh when I hear that the latest cameras have ‘14 stops of DR’ - that’s great, because it means you can recover detail from shadows and not blow out highlights. A boon for post processing. But can a print reproduce 14 stops? You have to map those stops to the delivery medium. HDR, of course, plays into this. You often wisely remind us that screen will never equate to print. My point is that I want to understand the potential of the print so I can be a better post processor.

@KeithCooper Жыл бұрын

The 'potential' of the print can be found from looking inside an ICC profile for the printer/paper. 14 stops of DR is scene referred, so not directly relevant to the output, which is set by the maximum density and paper white. I just profiled a screen and it ended with a contrast range of ~700:1 A print might have 60:1 - of course the perceptual element on this depends on how the print is lit... How you match these is [for myself] a skill of interpretation and creative choice. If the numbers help you then great, but it's not an approach I'd find helpful beyond my technical curiosity. As ever YMMV ;-)

@johnm.gerard1718 4 ай бұрын

How to add test in affinity2 on ipad

@KeithCooper 4 ай бұрын

Colour management on iPads and phones is effectively broken for any serious use requiring any accuracy or consistency. If it works, consider it a stroke of good luck... ;-)