It is 2016 and at the age of information and technology I judge the value of teachings by its results. Being a devotee so many years, I have not experienced any loving environment in any devotee community, I have not experienced the power of diksa or chanting either personally or witnessed it in any others.. In fact the most compassionate and most honest relations I have experienced with non-devotees. The language of understanding the scriptures has been changed long ago. In short I want to know from these valuable respected teachers the real practical method of HOW to practice in bhakti marg as an ordinary person who has a serious interest in realizing love of Sri Krishna.

"Krishna Prema", if you understand this by studying scripture under the guidance of a mahat purusa and the desire to associate with like minded devotees, you are fortunate. If you understand this prema in theory alone, this kama will run away from you. It is absolute magical and quite a piece of music to my ears. I had to listen to this part few times. Excellent points discussed by brilliant scholars. Koti koti Dandavats at your feet.

What an amazing debate. Thank you kindly for recording and sharing this.

Wow. So proud of you. Hare Krishna.

Thank you for this beautiful debate by beautiful people 🙏🏻

Thank you 🎉🎉🎉🎉

In same 'adhikaraṇa' or in the mīmāṁsā concept of samānādhikaraṇya (two objects existing in one denomination), kāma and prema can co-exist till the time prema is not fully obtained. Bhāva-bhakti or rati has been compared to the awakening of the first ray of sun-light on the horizon -- in Bhakti-rasa-amṛta-sindhu verse - 'śuddha-sattva-viśeṣātmā prema-sūrya-amśu-sāmya-bhāk..krid asau bhāva ucyate'. And prema is described as the condensed or full-fledged sun-light in Bhakti-rasa-amrita-sindhu verse - 'samyak-masrnita-svantah.....bhavah sa eva sandra-atma budhaih prema nigadyate'. So, when the first ray of sunlight touches the horizon of Earth during the early morning hours of 'aruṇodaya-kāla', about 75%+ darkness is seen prevalent. Gradually, when sunlight blossoms up during the midday time, 100% darkness is dissipated. Similarly, it has to be understood with avidyā. Both can co-exist proportionately. However, verses like 'bhukti-mukti-spṛhā yāvat piśācī hṛdi varttate' in Bhakti-rasa-amṛta-sindhu do not indicate anything otherwise. The mere intention there is to assert that till the desires of bhukti and mukti will remain, the 'aiśvara-sukha' (One aspect of 'śubhadā' quality found in sādhana-bhakti and developed more on later stages of bhāva and prema. Aiśvara-sukha is the divine happiness emanated from the discharge of uttamā-bhakti displayed on the three stages of sādhana, bhāva and prema) will not be relished. So, from the very start of sādhana-bhakti, these extraneous desires are to be tamed/curbed by the sādhaka. However, their full eradication happens only during the conjunction of bhāva and prema stages. Therefore, the 'sādhaka' stage remains till the conjunction of bhāva and prema. Only after ascending the prema stage, 'siddha' platform is acquired according to the opinion of BRS (Bhakti-rasa-amṛta-sindhu). Till then, the sādhaka platform remains. However, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī, in his Bhakti-sandarbha, places the bhāva-bhakti-sādhakas as the siddhas of the third category viz., the category of 'mūrcchita-kaṣāya' or whose anarthas have been mūrcchita or made dormant/inactive. In any perspective (whether that of BRS or of Bhakti-sandarbha), the bottom-line point coming out is that avidyā/anartha remain present, though, inactive or mūrcchita till the time when prema is not fully acquired. Hence, it is to be accepted that both avidyā and prema (till its sandhi-kāla or conjunction stage with bhāva/rati) can co-exist till certain proportionate extents. SND's view is defeated here and the view of JD, too, is not fully authentic as SND defeats him with scriptural evidences and logic. Both of the contestants are inaccurate somewhere or other in their philosophical assessments. The point that JD (Jagadānandadāsa or Prof. Jen Brezenski or ex-ISKCONite Hiraṇyagarbhadāsa ACBSP) embarks upon through quoting from the writings of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmīpāda and endeavours to establish that unless one experiences sorrow in the mundane world, how is he/she going to experience billions of times more sorrow that which Śrī Rādhā experiences -- this point needs to be understood in true light and not how JD interprets it. In Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī clarifies that - 'premaiva gopa-rāmāṇāṁ kāma ity agamat-prathām' meaning that the divine prema of Gopīs, sometimes, comes to be known as 'kāma' (literally meaning lust) just because certain outward activities of gopī-prema do resemble the acts of mundane lust (though inner motives of kāma and prema are, altogether, wholly distinct). But, this comparison with kāma, is, only relative. For a nitya-siddha-pārṣada who has never remained a saṁsārī jīva, he doesn't need to know whether prema's outward acts are resembling the kāma or not. Such analogy is given only in comparison to a saṁsārī jīva's experience. So, it’s a relative statement. Note - SND is short for Mahānta Satyanārāyaṇadāsa Bābājī (ex-ISKCONite & now initiated by Gadādhara Parivāra of Gauḍīya Sampradāya + gold-medalist engineer from IIT Delhi - 1977 AD batch). Link to the whole above essay -- goo.gl/1WvJP2 -- Bhakti-rasa-vedānta-pīṭḥādhīśvara Gurupādācārya Śrī-caraṇa of BRVF (initiated into Advaita-ācārya Parivāra of Caitanyaite Vaiṣṇavism - Lodi, CA, USA + Ānanda, Gujarāta, Bhārata)

owww..what a debate....

Joy Gour Gadadhor

Jai

Jai gadadhar gour bijayetam 🙏

At 22 mins Jagananda Ji said ( Summary ) that the second part of Sadhana is to Love the devotee and then through the Love of the Devotee one then learns to Love God as all pervasive inside all beings , why only limit that to Devotees, in the second part of Sadhana, this is my problem with Gaudia, its just centered around who is a devotee and a non devotee, all beings good or bad have the same essence beyond the conditions, what makes a devotees soul so special above others, it makes the whole thing contradictory.

The glass is half empty vs the glass is half full. Vedas are like that. I spent 2 years in Jiva being taught the glass is half full when I had just filled it half way. As it was getting less full I went to live with Haridas Sastri Maharaja for 3 years and he filled it to the brim and then it began to overflow. And once it overflows you cannot seem to stop it. Is there love in this world? Those who think there is need for a debate are not going to be able to introduce you to it. Haha.

It would be great to have a straightforward clarification from the 5th canto of Sri Srimad Bhagavatam in regard to the shape of our Earth and our whole ENCLOSED universe (our particular Brahmanda - Brahma -anda = the celestial EGG of Lord Brahma). Once you know that our known Earth is stationary and level, the translation of loka as some planet sounds really painful and very disturbing. Loka means abode, realm, place. Grahas refer to the sun, moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. Never to our Earth. No scriptures (not Vedas, not the Bible, not Quaran) ever mention helical model and spinning balls flying in some endless dark vacuum of some outer space. Radhe Radhe!

Analysis on the views of Mahānta Satyanārāyaṇadāsa Bābājī ‘Gauḍīya’ and Prof. Dr. Jen Brezenski/Jagadānandadāsa ‘self-professed Sahajiyā’ Note - The below comments are in response to the HD video recorded debate of the two scholarly Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava personalities today. The link to that video discourse is - kzfaq.info/get/bejne/bpOmlsiVmsW4pJ8.html Link to the whole actual essay -- goo.gl/1WvJP2 -- Bhakti-rasa-vedānta-pīṭḥādhīśvara Gurupādācārya Śrī-caraṇa of BRVF (initiated into Advaita-ācārya Parivāra of Caitanyaite Vaiṣṇavism - Lodi, CA, USA + Ānanda, Gujarāta, Bhārata)

At 52:30 Jagadanand ji says that according to advaitins, God is external to this world. But right now I am translating Advaita Siddhanta Candrika and this explicitly contradicts advaita. According to advaitins, God is advitiya. And if God is external to this world according to advaitins (as he says), then advaitins will self contradict. Advaitins say rather opposite. God is NOT external to this world. God IS this world. And he is upadana karana to this world.

Comments of HH SNDB (in response to the article - “Analysis on the views of Mahānta Satyanārāyaṇadāsa Bābājī ‘Gauḍīya’ and Prof. Dr. Jen Brezenski/Jagadānandadāsa ‘self-professed Sahajiyā’ “) produced via Ms. Malatimanjaridevidasi (a disciple) on Facebook thread goo.gl/wBfkWd - “This is fine, but at the end of your blog you claim to have refuted Satyanarayana Dasa Babaji, quoting from BRS and VCT to show that different stages of bhakti can coexist in the same substratum. However, the point of the debate was about kama and prema. So unless you are able to refute him in a 5-step syllogism according to Nyaya we cannot accept your claim.” *** Response - 1) Avyutpanna-pūrvapakṣaḥ (not intelligible prima facie contention) of Mahānta Satyanārāyaṇadāsa Vairāgī ‘Gauḍīya’ (Gadādhara Parivāra) - “avidyā-grasta-janaḥ sakāma asthita-prajñatvāt. yo yo asthita-prajña sa sa sakāmaḥ yathā caitraḥ. kāmini-jane premābhāvaḥ vṛtti-virodhāt. yatra yatra vṛtti-virodhas tatra tatra sāmānyādhikaraṇābhāvaḥ prakāśāndhakārayoḥ. yo yo jātaḥ sa kāma-grastaḥ karma-baddhatvāt. yo yo karma-baddhaḥ sa kāma-grastaḥ yathā caitraḥ. yan naivaṁ tan naivam. yo jātaḥ sa karma-baddhaḥ sa kāma-grastaḥ tasmād premābhāvaḥ.” “अविद्या-ग्रस्त-जनः सकाम अस्थित-प्रज्ञत्वात् । यो यो अस्थित-प्रज्ञ स स सकामः यथा चैत्रः । कामिनि-जने प्रेमभावः वृत्ति-विरोधात् । यत्र यत्र वृत्ति-विरोधस्तत्र तत्र सामान्याधिकरणाभावः प्रकाशान्धकारयो: । यो यो जातः स काम-ग्रस्त: कर्म-बद्धत्वात् । यो यो कर्म-बद्धः स काम-ग्रस्तः यथा चैत्र: । यन्नैवं तन्नैवम् । यो जातः स कर्म-बद्धः स काम-ग्रस्तः तस्माद् प्रेमाभावः ।“ *** 2) Vyutpannā saṅgatiḥ (intelligible harmonization) by Bhakti-rasa-vedānta-pīṭhādhīśvara Gurupādācārya Śrī-caraṇa ‘Gauḍīya’ (Advaita Parivāra) - “ādima-sādhu-saṅga-prabhāva-jātayā pāramārthikyā śraddhayopetaḥ aparipakva-kaṣāyaḥ hlādiny-avidyobhaya-prabhāva-grasta-janaḥ mūrcchita-kāmaḥ jāta-ratiḥ amūrcchita-kāmaś ca ajāta-ratiḥ vā (pramāṇaṁ bhakti-sandarbhe - “evaṁ bhakti-siddhās trividhāḥ…..mūrcchita-kaṣāyāś ca” iti.). mūrcchitāmūrcchitayoḥ sthityoḥ sādhaka-jane kṣayamāṇasya kāmasyāpekṣikī parimāṇatā svīkṛtā tad-virodhi-liṅgopeta-bhāva-ratyaṅkurayoḥ (pāramārthikī śraddhā bhāvāṅkura-rūpā yathā nirūpitā karma-sandarbhe - “śraddhā tu ratyaṇkura-rūpā” - iti) sahāvasthānena yathā pramāṇitaṁ - “vikrīḍitaṁ vraja-vadhūbhiridaṁ ca viṣṇoḥ” - iti śrīmad-bhāgavata-padyasyāgrimapadair itthaṁ - “bhaktiṁ parāṁ bhagavatiṁ pratilabhya kāmaṁ hṛd-rogam āśu apahinoty acireṇa dhīraḥ”. yathā yathā ratyudreka-jātaḥ tathā tathā kāmasya kṣayaḥ syāt bhagavad-rati-prākṛta-kāmayoḥ vṛtti-virodha-yukta-prakāśa-timira-balābala-saṅgarṣa-vad āpekṣika-sāmānyādhikaraṇena na tv ātyantika-sāmānyādhikaraṇa-dṛṣṭyāruṇodaya-kāle bhāskarasya prathama-prakāśita-kiraṇena lāghava-prāpta-timira iva. atra pramāṇaṁ śrī-bhaktirasāmṛtasindhau bhāva-paribhāṣā-kārikāyāṁ - “…..prema-sūryāṁśu-sāmya-bhāk…..bhāva ucyate” iti.” (rateḥ prema-sūrya-kiraṇatvam darśitam anena). pūrṇa-prema-prāptau kāmasya pūrṇa-parihāraḥ syād ātyantika-sāmānyādhikaraṇena na tv āpekṣika-sāmānyādhikaraṇa-dṛṣtyā gṛīṣma-madhyāhna-kāle raveḥ sāṅgopāṅga-teja-yuktatvam ca tamasyākhila-nivāraṇam iva. atra pramāṇaṁ bhaktirasāmṛtasindhau prema-paribhāṣāyāṁ yathā - “….bhāvaḥ sa eva sāndrātmā budhaiḥ premā nigadyate” (premasya pūrṇa-prakāśita-ravitvaṁ darśitam anena). dvitīyaṁ pramāṇaṁ śrī-caitanya-caritāmṛte yathā - “kāma prema dohaṅkāra vibhinna lakṣaṇa……kāma andha-tamaḥ prema nirmala bhāskara”. parābhūta-kṣīṇa-kāmasya pravarddhana-śīla-prema-prāg-avasthā-bhūta-bhāvena saha yugapad-avasthānaṁ nirdhāritam. nanu dīkṣā-kāle hari-bhakti-sādhakasya kṛṣṇātma-samatvenāvidyā-prabhāvo parihṛtaḥ (“dīkṣā-kāle bhakta kare ātma-samarpaṇa / sei kāle kṛṣṇa kare tāra ātma-sama //” - caitanya-caritāmṛte) iti pūrva-pakṣam ayauktikam. katham? dīkṣā-kāla-sāmayikaṁ kṛṣna-samatvaṁ yad sūcitaṁ tad āpekṣika-dṛṣṭyaiva na tv ātyantika-dṛṣtyā. ātyantika-dṛṣṭyā tu pārṣada-dehāvāpty anantaram syād yathā pramāṇitaṁ śrī-gītādau - “…mama sādharmyam āgatāḥ” iti “so ‘śnute sarvān kāmān saha brahmaṇā vipaścitā” iti śrauta-sākṣyeṇa ca. tad eva (yad ātyantika-kṛṣṇa-samatvam sādhana-siddha-kṛpā-siddhayor pakṣe) tu nitya-siddhānāṁ kṛṣṇa-samatvān nyūnam. ataḥ sādhana-siddha-kṛpā-siddhayor kṛṣṇa-samatvaṁ nyūnātyantikam. tad viparyayeṇa nitya-siddhānāṁ kṛṣṇa-samatvaṁ gurvātyantikam - “…nitya-siddhāḥ mukunda-vat” - iti vākyeṇa bhaktirasāmṛtasindhoh nitya-siddha-śreṇyāḥ paribhāṣāyām. sādhana-siddha-kṛpā-siddha-vargayoḥ paribhāṣāyāṁ tu ‘mukunda-vat’ ity viśeṣaṇasya parihārād bhaktirasāmṛtasindhau.” “आदिम-साधु-सङ्ग-प्रभाव-जातया पारमार्थिक्या श्रद्धयोपेतः अपरिपक्व-कषायः ह्लादिन्याविद्योभयप्रभावग्रस्तजनः मूर्च्छित-कामः जात-रतिः अमूर्च्छितकामश्चाजातरतिः वा (प्रमाणम् भक्तिसन्दर्भे - “एवं भक्तिसिद्धास्त्रिविधा:....मूर्च्छितकषायाश्च” इति) । मूर्च्छितामूर्च्छितयोः स्थित्यो: साधक-जने क्षयमाणस्य कामस्यापेक्षिकी परिमाणता स्वीकृता तद्विरोधिलिङ्गोपेतभावरत्यङ्कुरयोः (पारमार्थिकी श्रद्धा भावाङ्कुररूपा यथा निरूपिता क्रमसन्दर्भे - “श्रद्धा तु रत्यङ्कुररूपा” इति) सहावस्थानेन यथा प्रमाणितं - “विक्रीडितं व्रजवधूभिरिदं च विष्णो:” - इति श्रीमद्भागवतस्याग्रिमपदैरित्थं - “भक्तिं परां भगवतिं प्रतिलभ्य कामं हृद्रोगमाशु अपहिनोत्यचिरेण धीरः” । यथा यथा रत्युद्रेकजातः तथा तथा कामस्य क्षयः स्यात् भगवद्रतिप्राकृतकामयोः वृत्तिविरोधयुक्तप्रकाशतिमिरबलाबलसङ्घर्षवदापेक्षिकसामान्याधिकरणेन न त्वात्यन्तिकसामान्याधिकरणदृष्ट्यारुणोदयकाले भास्करस्य प्रथमप्रकाशितकिरणेन लाघवप्राप्ततिमिर इव । अत्र प्रमाणं श्री भक्तिरसामृतसिन्धौ भावपरिभाषाकारिकायां - “प्रेमसूर्यांशुसाम्यभाक्.....भाव उच्यते” इति । (रतेः प्रेमसूर्यकिरणत्वं दर्शितमनेन ।) पूर्णप्रेमप्राप्तौ कामस्य पूर्णपरिहारः स्यादात्यन्तिकसामान्याधिकरणेन न त्वापेक्षिकसामान्याधिकरणदृष्ट्या ग्रीष्ममध्याह्नकाले रवेः साङ्गोपाङ्गतेजयुक्तत्वञ्च तमस्याखिलनिवारणमिव । अत्र प्रमाणं भक्तिरसामृतसिन्धौ प्रेमपरिभाषायां यथा - “...भावः स एव सान्द्रात्मा बुधैः प्रेमा निगद्यते” (प्रेमस्य पूर्णप्रकाशितरवित्वं दर्शितमनेन) । द्वितीयम् प्रमाणं श्रीचैतन्यचरितामृते यथा - “काम प्रेम दोहङ्कार विभिन्न लक्षण....काम अन्धतमः प्रेम निर्मल भास्कर” । पराभूतक्षीणकामस्य प्रवर्द्धनशीलप्रेमप्रागवस्थाभूतभावेन सह युगपदवस्थानम् निर्धारितम् । ननु दीक्षाकाले हरिभक्तिसाधकस्य कृष्णात्मसमत्वेनाविद्याप्रभावो परिहृतः (“दीक्षाकाले भक्त करे आत्मसमर्पण / सेई काले कृष्ण करे ताँर आत्मसम //” - चैतन्यचरितामृते) - इति पूर्वपक्षमयौक्तिकम् । कथम् । दीक्षाकालसामयिकं कृष्णसमत्वं यद्सूचितम् तदापेक्षिकदृष्ट्यैव न त्वात्यन्तिकदृष्ट्या । आत्यन्तिकदृष्ट्या तु पार्षददेहावाप्त्यनन्तरं स्याद्यथा प्रमाणितं श्रीगीतादौ - “मम साधर्म्यमागता:” इति “सोऽश्नुते सर्वान् कामान् सह ब्रह्मणा विपश्चिता” इति श्रौतसाक्ष्येण च । तदेव (यदात्यन्तिककृष्णसमत्वं साधनसिद्धकृपासिद्धयोर्पक्षे) तु नित्यसिद्धानां कृष्णसमत्वान्न्यूनम् । अतः साधनसिद्धकृपासिद्धयोर्कृष्णसमत्वं न्यूनात्यन्तिकम् । तद्विपर्ययेण नित्यसिद्धानां कृष्णसमत्वं गुर्वात्यन्तिकम् - “....नित्य-सिद्धाः मुकुन्दवत्” इति वाक्येन भक्तिरसामृतसिन्धो: नित्यसिद्धश्रेण्या: परिभाषायाम् । साधनसिद्धकृपासिद्धवर्गयोः परिभाषायां तु ‘मुकुन्द-वत्’ इति विशेषणस्य परिहाराद्भक्तिरसामृतसिन्धौ ।“