Does stabbing the ground give better traction??? (giving my robots cleats)

Рет қаралды 2,539

6 ай бұрын

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This week we try to out spikey wheels to see if cleats give more traction
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Пікірлер: 28

@nateboutin1333 6 ай бұрын

Creator of the 3lb ring spinner, Event Horizon, here. Cleats are amazing, I switched to them a while back and there is no way im going back. They have way more advantages than just improved traction. They last significantly longer than rubber (to the point where they pay for themselves after an event or two), they can be rejuvenated by a little sharpening with a file, have way more traction when implemented correctly, and they can be much lighter than wheels. Cleat design is more finicky than wheel design is though, and has the potential to be far worse than wheels if not implemented correctly. BUT, if you dial them in for your bot, they're awesome. A couple things about the tests in the video: 1.) Weight is more important to cleats that it is to rubber wheels. Way more important. Without enough weight cleats don't bite enough and have less traction than wheels at the same weight. 2.) Cleats should be as thin as possible. 3mm cleats are really really wide, too wide in my opinion. You don't get enough bite into the wood when you're tying to press a line into the ground. 1mm is what Event Horizon uses to great effect, but I've also seen people in 3lb go to 0.5mm. 3.) Lastly, tooth shape. As long and thin as reasonable is the way to go. I've seen a lot of people do the double spiked tooth but I find that a single thin spike works better as you are pressing less area into the wood. All in all great video, keep it up!

@TeamPanicRobotics 5 ай бұрын

Thanks for your insights! I'm very new to cleat design so made a bunch of guesses I can easily see a v2 design from your feedback, I'll have a go at designing one in the near future. I'll also be sure to test on a full weight beetle to be sure I'm getting the most out of them in testing

@MrLeifBeaver 6 ай бұрын

Next years new rule. "No purposely destroying the fighting floor" :)

@bami2 6 ай бұрын

Honestly I hope robot combat will eventually go in the reverse: all bots must destroy the floor as much as possible. Joe Fabiani with screw drive had the right idea. Can't have a groundgame if the floor is trashed and if people going into a competition can expect the floor to be trash maybe it stops the literal race to the bottom with giant forks/wedges, forces people to make their bots with some ground clearance (like HUGE) and eventually break the wedge/4wd vert meta. It will start with peoples bots just getting stuck but I'm confident people will figure out ways to have a bot be mobile on a garbage floor while nerfing wedges/forks to the point that they are not really that practical anymore. In the long run it would probably even save on arena maintenance since you can just shove like a inch of plywood as the floor on a new arena and just never replace it until you get holes , then just place another sheet of plywood under the trashed floor and keep going letting the bots dig deeper and deeper into it.

@MrLeifBeaver 6 ай бұрын

@@bami2 True ture. I am a complete novice in this field, just watching the videos. But I guess if it's allowed, then the bots 'meta' is ever changing every year. I did notice that many bots run as close to the floor as possible, so destroying the floor would definitely hinder them.

@bami2 6 ай бұрын

@@MrLeifBeaver In the entire history of robot combat, the most effective weapon has always been (and with flat floors, will ever be) the wedge. If you can get under the other bot, you have a definite advantage since you remove both opponents mobility (wheels don't touch the floor) and you have more options in terms of weapons like lifters/flippers or spinners that need to get under the other bot to be effective. To the point that a lot of competitions now have an "active weapon" rule that your bot cannot enter if it just has a wedge, since they still are very effective but can lead to boring matches.

@MrLeifBeaver 6 ай бұрын

@@bami2 Oh wow, that is very interesting. I certainly like the hammer style bots, with a spinner on the end of the hammer for good measure. Piercing the bot from above, is quite cool.

@jimkazmer951 6 ай бұрын

Great video and an important design element (for melties)! The downside of cleats, besides the damage they do to the floors, is the poor traction they have if the cleats do not bite. On soft woods, cleats easily get good bite; but on hardwood plywood, and woods treated with a hardener, their bite can be hard to find. The coefficient of friction for a cleat that grabs is "unity", the coefficient for a cleat that doesn't grab is close to "zero", and cleats that shred wood are somwehere inbetween. The HUGE benefit of rubbers, polyurethanes, and even TPUs is that the coefficient of friction for the dynamic and static situations are much closer together. I have used cleats with mixed results... the long span of poor results has been due to my own incredulity that they do not work as well as I think they should... I failed to adapt. After the poor results I had at the December NHRL event, many people heard me swear off cleats... instead I thought I would switch to rubber, polyurethane, or TPU. Team Alfredo (The Greatest Danger) likes their 3d printed TPU wheels and they have had good success with it. My plans for the March NHRL event is a better designed cleat coupled with a TPU sleeve to minimize the depth of floor penetration. I loved the slow motion video... many insights can be gleaned from watching the cuase and effect of such video. One such effect you can see is when one wheel is "grabbing" and the other wheel is "slipping". As you said in the video, the behavior will likely be (very) different with the full three pounds of weight. Another issue to be investigated is the effect of a short wheel base versus a wide wheel base; I think that can change the results as much as more weight. Thanks for making it.

@TeamPanicRobotics 5 ай бұрын

Thats a great point about the difference in traction when they dont bite. They feel a bit like a risk reward endeavour, if they work they work well, but if not the robot practically falls over I like your idea of a dual type wheel, hope that goes well for you, I'll be watching the March stream to see if I can see how they work Thanks, I'd really like to shoot slower video as I'm sure there's more to be gained, but it was interesting what can be seen at even 1/8th real time Wheel base changes are something it would be interesting to look into. I'm thinking my next melty might have to be more of a test platform then a bot

@Reaper_Lord 6 ай бұрын

love the new intro. Looking forward to the 2024 bots. Hoping to make it out to an event some time this year with one of my own

@CrimsonHiroX07 6 ай бұрын

Spring steel, when tempered correctly, is a strong but flexible metal that can survive a number of blows before deforming or breaking. When tempered incorrectly, it's rather fragile at impact forces.

@MindcraftMC 5 ай бұрын

Good to now

@k1ll3rvc 6 ай бұрын

Material-wise, most steels should be fine, but harder is probably better as the steel will still wear against on the wooden floor. Just the floor wears a LOT faster...

@razer259 6 ай бұрын

Interesting that you decided to experiment with cleats. I remember on one of your streams from last year, when I asked about your thoughts on Project Liftoff, you mentioned that ARC would be uncomfortable with cleats constantly damaging the floor. Maybe you could save those cleats for if/when you return to NHRL? I know, wishful thinking, but a guy can dream, right?

@TeamPanicRobotics 5 ай бұрын

Yeah, and I kind of stand by that, what changed is people using cleats on wood floors in the 30lb fights here in AUS and not really eating the floors So I asked ARC about it and they said as long as it doesn't do too much damage and if I'd be happy to contribute to a "floor replacement" fund. So I decided to test them, see how much damage they'd do I think I need more testing yet, as a few comments have said they will work better and do less damage on a full weight beetle I want to head back to NHRL some day but its a case of time and money

@ZoeyR86 6 ай бұрын

i wonder if adding a say 6 pointy spikes sticking only say 0.25mm out of the poly over mold. maybe 3d printed a wheel that hold 6 tool inserts like maybe TCMT-21.52 then just mold over them. giving the wheels some bite like a weapon

@ThyrusEvo 6 ай бұрын

I'm going to try out a mixture of liquid silicone and tiny stones/decoration sand for my next tournament to see if its providing better grip on our wooden arena floor over here in Germany Edit: I'll apply it to the fingertech foam wheels