The best solution imo is to make 'failing' dice rolls just as interesting as passing them. Disco Elysium did this phenomenally.

Sid Meier, the designers behind Civilization, is famous for a pair of quotes: “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game”; therefore, “One of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves.”

Your opinion is valid. I think for me I save scum because I like making choices not suggesting something or hoping it comes across as I intended or works out. I want to see what happens if I do this or that not if I try to. I think there’s a spectrum between simulation and choose your own adventure, I prefer the choose your own adventure end of things. No way to play is better or worse, I’ll probably play this badass game both ways. Enjoyable video man! :D

For me personally the biggest problem with BG3 that personally drove me (and I'm assuming a lot of people when they realized it) to save scum is that HUNDREDS of checks lead to absolutely nothing if you fail them and anything from minor loot to entire questlines if you succeed. You could be walking around in the city when suddenly a random perception check fails - with all four characters. So you look around for a second, then notice a wall that is out of place and clearly supposed to be a hidden door, but the game won't let you interact with it in any way. No hitting the wall (well sometimes you can but most of the time you simply cannot target clearly hidden doors), no manual investigate checks (which seriously how is that not in the game), no cooldown or waiting a day to retry, and most importantly - NO OTHER WAY TO GET THROUGH THE DOOR. It is enormously annoying to have this happen and the game is absolutely riddled with these kinds of situations. If you just happen to be unlucky with rolls then you're constantly feeling like you're missing out on content. I'm just not the kind of person who sees their 500th failed check in a 150-hour campaign on an obvious trap or hidden door or major monumental character moment and says to themselves - "Welp, see ya in the next playthrough! Why would I want to try again?! Sure I know that something is hidden right here but the gods have decided that I will never find it so, oh well!." Somebody in the comments here said they need to do like Disco Elysium and make failed checks interesting and I agree in that there are an astronomical amount of checks where it's just like, "oh you failed... anyway." when it could be much more interesting, but fixing the problem is more than just adding goofy failure moments. There is a serious lack of alternative options in this game, despite all of the talk that this is the most immersive sim CRPG ever that the online hype machine has been calling it. Like I mentioned, there are a lot of situations where there is only one way in to a place, but there's also a freaking truckload of single check moments between you joining a faction, doing a ton of quests for them, possibly getting new companions - and it just deteriorating instantly into a fight to the death for really flimsy reasons. This isn't really an issue of a player not grasping the consequences of their words or actions - just straight up bad writing and design.

I think a major reason for save scumming is not just wanting to get the best outcome but also a fear of missing out. Not knowing what kind of content we might be getting locked out of if we fail certain rolls or not have enough companion approval.

There's this trilogy, The Banner Saga, in which some story choices end up in party members getting killed and permanently lost. I've played throughout the whole trilogy without loading even once. When I lost a character, it hurt not only emotionally, but I also had to use another one as replacement, which meant learning to use different skills and finding a different approach to combat. This was the most immersive gaming experience I've ever had. This trilogy became a part of me. I'll remember it forever.

I've played through Act I at least six times now with different characters and roleplaying scenarios. Every experience has been different. This game is SO massive. You don't realize it until you start making mistakes.

You hit the nail on the head, as this is something I had to learn through a lot of grief in my life. This concept doesn't just apply to games but real life. I don't want to do the dishes, vacuum, put away the laundry, etc. I don't really want to put extra effort into my relationships, instead I want to chill and just vibe with them. What I want is a fantasy where I don't have to put effort into anything and just vibe. This has led to do much bullshit in my life, from things I was passionate about feeling like too much effort, to constant grief with my partner from me not being capable of upholding the simplest responsibilities in our relationship. Don't blindly follow your wants, figure out what will make you the most fulfilled and prepare to put in the effort. The most fulfilling things in life all have stress and difficulties. We're all gonna make it.

I was halfway through act 1 and was save scumming a LOT. It got to the point where I would save scum every conversational roll, every skill check, everything. I got bored, so bored I stopped playing it for a few days. I kept seeing reviews about how amazing this game was and I was like "yeah, I mean it's alright" It wasn't until I thought about why I was bored, that I figured out what the problem was. There was no risk, there was no threat of things turning out badly because I knew if I failed a check, I could just load a previous save from 5 minutes ago. This led to a few different things. I had to replay a lot of the game back to back, which killed my interest and really broke my immersion, I also never had to deal with an adverse outcome. That is what made the game boring to me. So I started up a brand new save a few days ago, and after getting past my previous point, I've been enveloped in this story and game.

My personal issue is that if I ever feel like my choices are fucking me over because of the limitations of the game rather than being a natural consequence, I'll start save scumming to compensate. A small example is "oh that's not what I thought that dialogue option would mean". But a bigger one is "Oh I made a fuck ton of choices, under the impression that they COULD lead to X, but I'm getting the impression that X was never even considered as a potential outcome. If it were possible and i failed, that would be one thing, but now that I feel like it could have been possible but simply isn't, I feel cheated out of my own consequences." I'm not advocating for or against it, just pointing out that with a game like Baldur's Gate, it's a very complicated scenario to look at and talk about.

Thank you for this video @Ratatoskr ! I'm encountering some tough areas at the end of act 1 and put down the game out of frustration. I was watching videos trying to find ways to get through these areas (as I was save scumming and still failing lol) and found your video. You inspired me to pick up the game with a new mindset :) halfway through act 2 now and already dreaming about a second playthrough XD Thank you!

Great video! In defense of save scumming, a lot of people are only going to play it once, so I can understand wanting to try to get it (near) perfect in one go. Personally I'm letting some things go, reloading for game-changers like failing to rescue a key NPC - even though admittedly that would make my first playthrough more organic. I think the inspiration mechanic is a nice balancer. If it's something you really feel strongly about, you can use a reroll or two. Of course, if I waste multiple inspiration charges and still don't succeed, I'm probably just going to load...

Yeah. Though, I do recommend saving a lot. And there is a caveat I might add: sometimes you might "save scum" to avoid bad communication. Basically, sometimes there are dialogue options presented to you that you think you understand and then when you click the button they turn out differently than you intended. This might sound similar to what was mentioned in the video, but I dont think it is. Larian doesnt really tell you if a response will have further options down the dialogue tree or what tone they are spoken in. I once clicked an option thinking it would open the possibility for a deception roll, but wasnt given that option whatsoever... Which means my character would NEVER have said the first option. But I couldnt go back. I dont really see that sort of thing as the same at all. Though obviously, if you're tempted to actually save scum if you do this, then dont.

I am impressed that you managed to turn a video on Baldur’s Gate 3 into a philosophical argument against unbridled hedonism

You’re totally right. The one time I’ll save scum is when I select a dialogue option whose vibe I can’t quite gage. If I want to be nice and charitable but the response I get tells me that the option was meant to be more harsh, I undo that IMMEDIATELY. IRL I have a lot more ways to navigate a conversation. In-game I have to manually figure out what responses lead me to the message I want to convey

Damn man, this hit home. I save scummed all they way up to moonrise, and especially so when I tried to complete a quest to save two parties. Save for something catastrophic, I think you converted me, thank you.

This reminds me of a quote I once heard: "If players are left to their own devices, they will optimize the fun out of a game.".

I think that the best solution to this issue is to create an Ironman mode. Simply creating a (technically worthless) achievement for playing without save scumming is enough to overcome the psychological obstacle of "If I can do this, I should, or I'll feel like I'm wasting my potential." Anyways, great take from Ratatoskr, love the respectful and thoughtful way they approach differing perspectives.

This video was really well written. I'm one of those people who don't particularly feel ashamed of save scumming and doing so when it is about critical moments of character dialogue and interaction, I feel like I MUST save scum because, when I don't and I misclick or something completely out of my control happens when I feel like it should be within my control, then, attempting to roll with what I'm given results in me losing interest in this new path that has appeared before me since it has locked me out of the rest of the game, which was something I was enjoying it. One moment where that happened to me in spades (without spoilers) was when my character was infiltrating the enemy's camp and was waiting for the right opportunity to strike when an NPC was killed mid-cutscene. That moment prompt me to load my game because, out of character, I could tell it was about to happen. My character was close enough, I felt like I should be able to stop it, I NEEDED to be able to stop it, but that just wasn't available to me. So I loaded the save, drastically reduced the number of enemies that I had to deal with so the boss fight would be manageable before the cutscene and I attacked the boss before the NPC was killed. However... I did feel a bit of regret. Instead of loading the save and preparing an ambush, I later realized I would prefer to have engaged combat before prepping the battlefield. It was a horribly difficult situation where we were surrounded and outnumbered, but I didn't give a shit. It is what felt right to do. Maybe that would be a complete checkmate, and I'd have to resort to the battlefield prepping, but I wanted to have at least tried. However, I knew for a fact that I would've stopped having fun if I went on with the game knowing the NPC died for nothing. I would constantly be reminded of them and tempted to load again until I'd be 10 hours later into the game and decided that I needed to go back, or I'd quit the game. That, in a nutshell, summarizes my feelings on the matter. I save a lot, but I don't load every single time someone doesn't go how I plan. I ONLY do it when I think it is utmost necessary for the story I want to tell through my character. SPECIALLY if this game-changing scenario was caused by a misclick or a misunderstanding of what the dialogue meant to say.

News flash: Not everyone is gonna replay a 100 hour game multiple times, some just play the story once and save scumming provides a way to make sure you experience every outcome.

Why do I have a feeling that this lesson applies to general reality not just game enjoyment

It doesn't count as save scumming if I keep dying

Thank you, really enjoyed this video. Thank you for bringing such a measured tone to topic that is sadly 'taboo' - this personally resonated with me, I think so few trust game designers and what they visioned for an experience. Elden Ring, Remnant 2 and now BG3 recently. Great video!

I think I needed to hear this. Thank you.

I think it's best to abandon the interpretation of a missed dice roll (or anything equivalent to that) as a failure. In my opinion Disco Elysium did that exceptionally well, so well in fact that the missed rolls sometimes lead to way more interesting situations.

Baldur's Gate is so free and you are able to enjoy it in any way you can!!!!

Thank you!!! I really appreciated this video. Your perspective was carefully considered, logically constructed, appropriately caveated, and ultimately served to help me engage in a modicum of introspection. I just subscribed because of this video alone. I look forward to more content along these lines. I have no difficulty or issue with someone presenting an interesting premise and allowing them space to expound on that argument in favor of said position / theory / perspective. It’s why I prefer KZfaq over broadcast television. I WANT an unveneered perspective…not something born of the herd mind / focus-grouped to death.

During Early Access, my cousins and I had a multiplayer campaign where we agreed not to save scum or reload (unless we all wiped or broke the game). It resulted in one of the most hilarious, exhilarating, and memorable gaming experiences we've had because we simply just accepted the consequences and watched how our choices played out.

This is the video I needed. I have been save scumming, not in battle - but mainly just to see different outcomes of all of the different choices. It's a testament to how great this game is that I even care. But part of me thinks its wrong to save scum, and it may take away from the replay value of the game

Had an amazing experience actually related to "Save Scumming". At the point in the story where a partner NPC has to make a huge choice there's a 30 dice check, meaning for my character for this check I had to get a nat 20. I lost the initial roll of this after using 5 inspiration points and was really sad but at peace with it. After the encounter, I had to revive La'ezel and went over to Withers to do that, and then fast traveled to where I needed to go. Lae'zel had bugged and wasn't reviving and when going back to camp, was not showing up, perma dead because of a bug. So, I reloaded my save, and promised myself, I would just go through the decision and not use my inspiration points to reroll as I was heartbroken but had already gotten over the grief, and at the first and only roll I used, I got a nat 20. I sat staring at the screen debating whether to reload again or go with it, but it felt like such an out of body experience like a dead friend had come back from the dead, so I went with it. Absolutely amazing experience, will always recommend trusting the roll.

I played a game that approaches this topic in an interesting way, it's called Fear & Hunger: Termina. You have 3 in-game days to finish it and every time you save, time passes by 1/3 of a day, so you have these long periods where you have to play without relying on saving that make the experience really exciting, especially as there are events related to story that happen during different times of the day depending on which day you're on. It's really cool and challenging.

Man... I needed this video. I've struggled with ruining games for myself in this way for years. The one saving grace for me was Dark Souls 2, where I wasn't able to ruin it with a duplication glitch. I finished the game. No cheats, no mods, vanilla. It was great. I'm currently playing through BG3, and finding myself with a hefty mod load order. Just started a fresh install on a new drive so that I can capture the beauty of this game without mods or save scumming.

There is a much simpler point to this imho: Games often dont acknowledge failure, which goes double in a system which features a d20 and doesnt allow you to take 10 ( which you can often do in actual RPGs ) even though you would succeed the check with a roll of a 2. I played like 5 hours of BG3, but there is a specific example where failure didnt result in less content: Your encounter with Astarion. Whether you fail or succeed in the hidden perception roll, gives a completely different encounter with him: thats amazing, because i wasnt gated away from content because of that die roll. Obviously most choices wont be like that and maybe that was just a 1 of in the game, but it highlights that BG3 deserves a chance to not save scum social encounters, because unlike choices in many other games ( i dont mean crpgs here those are mostly doing fine) are an illusion, so failure always meant less content there.

I’ve saved scummed in CRPG’s for over 15 years. But Baldurs Gate 3 was completely different. For some reason, I felt like I was in an actual D&D story and couldn’t bring myself to do it.

Thank you for this video. Really opened my mind.

So as someone who's very addicted to F5 + F9ing (or in BG3's case F8ing), I definitely had an issue with this when I first started playing the game solo. The rolls I was getting would repeatedly frustrate and irk me into reloading, and I caught myself getting annoyed because I felt I was missing out on roleplaying the exact type of character I wanted. But then I realized there was content behind failed speech checks, similar to Disco Elysium. I pretty much never reload conversations now, unless a bungled dice throw makes me say or do something completely out of character (which is rare even on fails). I do still save scum for lockpicking and disarming, though I don't feel that takes me out of the experience as much, because it feels pretty much the same as consuming another one of my Thieves' Tools. Part of me does still wish that this game handled conversation checks the same way a game like New Vegas would (you are proficient in certain skills and can use your expertise with them in conversations as long as you match the number required, no RNG), but I recognize & respect the DnD source material Larian is drawing form. It's just something a lot of players, even seasoned RPG fans, will have to get used to.

As one of those people who is "exactly like you", who was planning on aggressively save-scumming in BG3, I really needed to hear this. I know you're right, I've ruined so many games for myself in this exact way, and the less a game lets me 'meta-game' the more I end up enjoying it, regardless of what I think I want in the moment. This is a great take, thank you.

I can definitely understand how some people could feel this way in reference to both save scumming and the dupe glitch. As someone that's been save scumming in these types of games since KoToR and DA, It's personally never ruined my experience with the game since I don't view it with the same lens that those do where they feel like it ruined their experience with the game as a whole. I simply want to experience all of the reactions the character has to offer, then I decide which response they give personally suits me. I can definitely see how this could feel transactional and hollow to some, I just personally don't view it that way.

Hahaha, excellent outro! It's always best to beat 'em to it 👍 Just found you through your Outward review and I'm looking forward to viewing your catalog. Thanks for what you do and keep up the great work.

Im new to the genre and only now learning the term, but i basically plan to use it only if it ends up potentially killing my character. I like seeing how things play out even if an outcome is bad, im sticking with the choices of the character because it makes sense for them/me. Saving my character from death is basically devine intervention

The only times ive save scummed are when I go to take an action a little too quickly and the camera moves a tiny bit at the last second and moves me in such a way that fucks up my intended actions.

I disagree with and want to push back on the idea that any feelings of shame for save scumming must come from within, as you were suggesting. Back when Jade Empire was relevant, I save scummed to see all the endings to the game and my friends' replies to that were "ahh so you cheated." It was clear to me, in the eyes of my friends, I had done something wrong by playing the game how I wanted. Maybe you, Ratatoskr, won't judge me for it but there are people who absolutely will. I do agree a person can save scum the fun out of a game, but I don't think this is a situation where one size fits all. For me, I enjoy reloading when I fail a dice check because a natural 1 decided to rear its ugly head on DC 5 challenge. Accepting what I feel as a bullshit result kills the enjoyment for me, so I reload those and move on.

Thank you, i didn't knew that i needed that advice

save scumming helped me a lot as someone new to this genre. but maybe i will try to ease off it as i’ve gotten more familiar. i did end up taking the fun / surprise out of a recent quest by looking up the solution, i ended up exploring a lot trying to figure it out

I have the same problem. I've constantly save scummed and restarting with new characters 8 times because I feel I'm "missing out" on content, opitimal results and party comp. And I'm having a hard time picking up the game again. It's something I've always struggled with RPGs like this. Wish I could just think less and enjoy how the dice rolls. 😮‍💨

What I've always done in these games is write a little backstory for my character, including their morality. Most old crpgs kind of expected this out of you anyway. I haven't played bg3 yet since I'm going through 1 and 2 again first, but doing this helps me think harder about what decision my character would make in dialogue, letting me be satisfied with it regardless of the outcome. Disco elysium deals with this as well by making failures often just as fun as successes.

Have never heard of save scumming but this video has made me realise why I put down DOS2, which ironically is also a Larian game. For the first one and a half acts I saved and reloaded and ultimately got bored of the game as I felt like it had become a checklist. I picked it up again two weeks ago and am having a blast in act 4, loving the stories I fall into and feeling like the characters are actually people now. Will be doing another playthrough in future with this mentality, thanks for putting it into words and revealing to me my dirty soul!

I'm doing a campaign save scumming as a paladin in tactician and another one as a paladin in balanced letting the story go the way it goes. I'm also running a campaign with my best friend where we are not allowed to save scum at all. We only load when we get killed. All three of the experiences are very distinct and running multiple campaigns at once allows me to see some of the multiple possibilities that can come from this. I'm probably going to end up running many more campaigns with this game. I finished dragon age inquisition 3 times and the variety of the story was nowhere near this one.

A failed roll in the D&D campaign I played ended up being my favorite one. I need to set up some backstory: 800 years ago, the world had been fundamentally changed by the Sheperds, a group of wizards. They partitioned off a small cluster of islands within a barrier which contained all of the planet's magic, leaving it highly concentrated with magic and the remainder of the planet mundane. This was done in an effort to separate the material plane from the other planes, as a way to hold back demon incursions which had ravaged the planet with war after war. The dwarves were separated from their mountain homeland by this event, and in the present their zealots are on our asses to undo this barrier. The wizards prepared a many faceted gemstone with 110 Djinn trapped in it, which can only be used by a first-born of the plane; someone without any kind of past lives. My character was intentionally made to be such a person, so I wished on the Djinn for this knowledge of the world and its structure, to get additional information which could counteract my indecision. In particular, I learn for sure that the demons are an inevitable force, and our silly little barrier will just prolong their invasion whilst leaving the majority of the planet's population unaware of magical forces such as them, ready to be blindsided. After this, me, my party, and a more level-headed dwarf we have befriended named Yakut got to work writing up a wish didact to officiate this planar reunion (the wizards created such didacts as a bit of legalese to get the Djinn to perform exactly the wish they wanted with no catch). We decide to do a small bit of gaslighting by including that the wish will broadcast a message saying it's Silgar, the head Sheperd, who is enacting this massive world change as a failsafe. This lets us skirt by in anonymity instead of potentially being demonized as the people who threw the world into chaos. We set up the afterlife of one of the island's denizens to extend its purpose to any warrior's death, regardless of nationality, so that those warriors will return to fight the demons when they eventually return. This idea further sways me into thinking that we're doing the right thing for long term survivability. It all comes down to this: since I had wished on the Djinn before, I need to roll a D100 to determine whether I can wish upon Djinn again. 1-33 it's a no-go. I roll my favorite red with black speckle and silver letter dice, and... 00, 7. No wish for me. Me and my party look around, and we turn to Yakut. He is given the large gemstone, and begins making the wish. He is a first-born of the plane. The single goal his entire culture had been working towards for 800 years, and he was fulfilling it. Our DM plays "The Lesser of Two Evils" from the Witcher 1 soundtrack through the music bot, and our characters' world is fundamentally changed. I know I did not have a deep investment in making this second wish like I felt when I wished for knowledge, so that failed role brought about a far more fitting character moment which was a great conclusion. As far as I can remember, those were the last dice any of us rolled for this campaign.

Yep. This topic keeps coming back because while we were right to put societal breaks on shaming and overmoralisation of things (especially aesthetic things like games or art), we've now ended up identifying literally any kind of judgment, or claim to know anything about what other people will like, as tantamount to shaming, bullying, or even physical force (somehow, even though no one ever actually 'forces' anyone to like anything). We need to be able to say these things without shaming, and we need to be able to hear them without conflating them with shaming.

You're outro dialogue really made me laugh. I like how you laid out a really good example of why there should be some constraints on things and completely unrestrained freedom leads to unfavorable results in almost all cases. It's my primary argument against why illegal narcotics and things of that nature should remain illegal.

We save scum in games because we would like to save scum in real life, and we can't

Big meta gamer myself here. Played hundreds of hours on Divinity Original Sin 2, and one of my favorite parts of the game was playing solo and building my character around being able to handle everything I wanted both inside and outside of combat. This isn’t exactly hard to do past act 1 when you can respec whenever for free, but routing a character to pass specific speech checks in act 1 while not sacrificing too much elsewhere was legitimately fun. I’m completely fine with save scumming in Baldur gate 3, Especially as a character specced into charisma. I’ve built my character this way partly because I want to explore those specific choices in this playthrough. Sure I could just fail the check and fight everything like any other character would, but the game has 100+ hours of content I want to explore, especially on my first playthrough. I don’t much like the idea of waiting potentially 100 hours to maybe pass a check I failed before, but this time on a character less likely to do so. I personally don’t think the dnd style of rolling for everything and leaving it to chance is a good system for video games. A tabletop with a good DM can branch out your failed persuasion or deception checks to more options than if you failed go kill everyone now. I want to be rewarded in a much more tangible sense outside of combat for the way I build my character. Simply giving me a bit of a better chance to do something doesn’t reward me the same way that meeting certain combat and social skill requirements by certain levels did in DO2, especially when you can just roll a 1 and fail a check that was otherwise impossible to.

The only time I save scum is to not get accidentally stuck. Take for example a dialogue option that I assume would end in combat. If I can't beat that scenario then I would be stuck there and would get frustrated. It's only happened a couple of times luckily. Sticking with your decision is the way to. You don't need to be an omnipotent god to fully enjoy a game and saving interactions makes for an interesting second playthrough later.

Nice video. I save scum because I have very little time and this is very large game. I want the best chance to make it through the entire game and not miss out on special side quests/items. I cannot afford multiple play throughs. I really wish I could. Raising kids, lots of overtime, not neglecting my family, etc. So “save scumming” before big fights, before interacting with unknown individuals, etc allow me to get the most out of this game in the single play through I’m allotted in the least amount of game time. Having to live with bad rolls or bad choices that permanently cut off portions of the game wouldn’t make my play through more enjoyable for me. I get your point though, role playing and making it feel real might be very rewarding for you. I don’t save before every roll or every step or every trap disarm either. Only when I feel something irreversible might be near.

I had a similar experience doing the exact opposite on elden ring. At one point in the story you do something that changes the ''whole'' map, and it broke the game for me, i did still finish it, but after that moment i felt rushed and lost the ability to explore some places i wanted to. Up until that point i was playing by heart, i wish i had seen a guide or two about what was happening. Gotta proudly say i'm 20 hours into bg3 and haven't failed a dice since hehehehe Will experiment into trusting it tho, although if my party is wiped by a bomb i can't not reload

I usually only save scum when I'm like "lol what happens if I pick this option", and occasionally for lockpicking when I happened to be low on lockpicks. Otherwise, I stick to my choices.

I agree with not save scumming for the general narrative or for player choices, but to me it doesn't count as "save scumming" when your NPC companion walks a bad path and blows up barrels or triggers traps that were visible by the lead PC. For example, my lead PC was looting some boxes that were surrounded by firewine barrels, and my rear NPC companion finally caught up, he was carrying his torch, and for some reason walked ON the firewine barrels. Blew everything up and did 75% damage to all party members. Had to waste a short rest and some potions. Or another instance, walking along a cliff side, the lead couple party members rolled perception and noticed a trap. Kept walking around it, but for some reason the rear NPC companion walked right into it, triggered the floor trap, and went flying off a cliff. Had to waste a scroll. In situations like that, I don't consider it save scumming, since it was the NPC simply walking wrong that made me have to waste significant resources.

Needed to hear this

I loved the video, and the outro was the cherry on the top. I agree with you, especially because everybody knows how tempting it is to save scum with Shadowheart, who in the beginning is really closed and distant from the player.

I play together with a buddy. Its our first playthrough and we have no idea whats about to come. And its just so much fun if you have to live with your mistakes. Yeah, I accidentally broke my Paladin oath very very very VERY early. And we also murdered two potential companions and a bunch of innocemt people. It just feels really intense if things can actually go wrong. And overcoming challenges feels so rewarding this way. We only reload after we get all killed or if the game crashes. And if we have to replay some parts because of that we make the same decisions that we made the first time. I can only talk for myself but save scumming would just kill our great experience.

OMG MY FAVORITE FERRET UPLOADED A BG3 VIDEO

My PC takes 5 minutes to load every time I try to save scum, which is enough incentive for me to not do it so that when I do save scum, it doesn't feel as bad. I think I will stop save-scumming after watching this video.

Very interesting video as always!!!

People are extremely stupid about autonomy. "Let people do X," is something you say to someone with authority over X, not a youtuber.

It's so hard to break my save scum soul. It's hammered in so deep I literally found myself at the reload menus before I even registered what I was doing. I found the best way to play is to genuinely think up a character, their personality all of it then genuinely just act as this person and ride out every consequence and it's so rewarding. I also had to stop myself from looking up all the different ways a situation plays out to ensure I get the best item. The hag hair and the lightning staff so far have been the only must have items I have found. It's best to just look up the key items for your build and just be ready for those and ride everything else out. Your going to want to do this game 3 times min and this isn't like DOS2 where sure the story is kinda different for each origin character but it's just a variation on the same story with a bit more back story...no this is like playing a totally different quest line depending on what personality or origin character..like a fresh dlc or something.

Thanks, that was very much the inspiration I needed to get into the right headspace for this game! I vote for an optional Iron Man mode in every game! I always try to see all the branching possible outcomes for a desicion and choose the most appealing to my character. In that way I'm often "fed up" with story rich games pretty early and loose interest... But BG 3 is making it very easy to not do that for me, because of how good it is written. I just want to go on and not be stuck in one conversation for over an hour. Also Min/Maxing your Companions in this game just feels like it sucks the personality out of them... I'm starting my 3rd attempt at not doing any metagaming, just roleplaying for real this time. Wish me luck!!

This is so true, my first 7h I haven't savescummed almost and let the journey take me. I have shared with my friends all that happened and was so thrilled by how the fate guided me. Subsequent 23h through the end of Act I and all of Act II I have savescummed a lot trying to get the results and the fun was considerably less. I will go through Act III the way the dice rolls!

Ratatoskr, It’s really interesting what you are pointing to here, which is, basically, why the exclusively libertine (“I do what I want”) conception of freedom as the basis for social good is always fraught with contradictions. If there were not a difference between what I we THINK we want and what we ACTUALLY want, no one would be in therapy, no one would get divorced, no one would choose the wrong thing, no one would be disappointed. But one of the key insights of psychoanalysis is that our desires are not self-evident. There is a gap inherent to desire that makes it restless. And the idea that our desires ARE self-evident is one of the ideologies pushed on us as economic consumers by those who need to profit off of our insecurity: “See this product? This is what you really want based upon who you really are. It will be part of your completion.” And tons of other forms of discourse (religious, national, sexual, etc.) tell us the same thing - that there is a way to close the afore-mentioned gap. So some gamers are offended when you suggest to them there may be a difference between their inclinations as gamers and the potential fun they might miss out on because they rightly perceive as a threat to the assumption that there is no gap between what they want and what they think they want. Saying “let people enjoy things” is a way to cover up what is fundamental problem we have to live with in the modern world where we have to choose everything…

I'm so happy you're playing BG3! Your past video on the pitfalls of easy modes stayed with me and influenced me to play the Balanced setting with this game. Boy was that the right decision. Thank you. Trying to trust the dice in this game, but I'm not used to it so my decisions seem a bit random and I feel...awkward. It's an interesting feeling. Immersion is definitely more. I'm going to keep trying

This whole conversation reminds me of the summons conversation in Elden Ring. I plan on handling it the same way I did that: during my first playthrough I used summons and had a good time doing so. During my second more through and experienced playthrough I didn’t use summons/multiplayer and I thoroughly enjoyed that as well. I plan on using save scumming sparingly this first playthrough as I simply am not familiar with the mechanics to feel confident playing without some lifeline. I don’t use it to make sure I control the outcome of every role or every interaction, but I will use it if I feel like I “messed up” in a big moment. (For example: I already had an instance where I thought I chose a dialog option that would lead me to fighting some true souls, but instead I made peace with them. Because I wanted to fight I hit them anyways, only to find out that by doing so I had broken my Paladin pact. I didn’t want that to happen, so I reloaded the save and ran it back). I will continue to do this if I make genuine mistakes that affect the game in big ways, but I won’t be doing this for every small decision/roll. I also don’t plan on doing this at all in a future playthrough once I understand the mechanics and relationships more. That’s the way I personally feel the most comfortable approaching this game. I like that you are willing to offer your own personal advice though, because your advice may genuinely help someone who isn’t enjoying the game figure out why that may be and fix it.

Just want to say i really appreciate your extremely nuanced and fair point of view.

I save scum to preserve the rpg experience that I wanna have. If there is a speech check that I want to pass because I feel like my character would pass it then I’m going to reload a save. I also think that saving before fights is ok just due to the fact that you can get really unlucky and lose encounters that you really have no business losing. Lastly, failing perception checks can lock you out of content and I don’t want to have to replay 20 hours of content because my party couldn’t see a button on the wall. What I do like about this game is that save scumming is an option that lets you get the most out of the game. I will be doing a dark urge play through once I’m done with my current one and I’ll definitely try a more classic dnd experience with that one.

I started playing Outward after seeing your last video, and am absolutely loving it. No other game has given me the same sense of danger, and feeling of actually being in the the world since maybe Demons Souls and Dark Souls 1. The feeling of seeing a strange new enemy in the distance, and deciding that it would be better to avoid the enemy because I have no idea of the enemies capabilities and might be killed, or carefully planning a trip to a dungeon and turning back part way because my resources are getting low and I'm worried about making it back to town are things I rarely feel in other games. And for that, I'm so glad it has a single autosaving save-file. If the player could do whatever they wanted, and just reload whenever, every new enemy would just involve charging straight at them, dying, and reloading the save file. Dungeons would become nothing but repeated, frantic suicide-runs until you just happen to make it through. Just the knowledge that you could reload would be enough to completely destroy the feeling of the world.

You incidentally made some good philosophical points about freedom and shame that can apply to life in general

I disagree. I agree with you in that save scumming is entirely dependent on the person and some players can use it to there detriment, however I believe the majority of people aren’t using it to get every possible good outcome, but rather for the ability to see multiple outcomes and choose their desired path leading to the relatively most satisfying ending. There are multiple instances where save scumming would be more fun for the overall story than going with what I initially chose. For example, (obvious spoilers): when offered the enhanced tadpole I chose eat it because I thought it would be funny. It worked regardless and I was fine being half-illithid, until I realized it ruined the beauty of my character. That would’ve annoyed me the entire playthrough seeing my character look like that after I spent a lot of time making them perfect. Other examples are accidentally killing mizora and losing Wyll because I failed 2 different arcana checks and didnt realize I couldnt make them with other people, making me click the button not realizing it wasn’t having the character investigate it. Another example is freeing nightsong. I didnt realize the quests inside moonlight towers would end once I freed her, I didnt want to leave the tieflings to die. But when I eventually came back I failed the persuasion check to stop shadowheart, so I especially had to reload because that one check is required to romance her and, while there is a non-roll way to stop her that I didnt realize at the time, after rolling you cant choose the non-roll path. So I would’ve spent ~50 hours thinking hard about specific choices to make sure she likes them, all for her not to even be romanceable in the first place. All of these choices would significantly impact the enjoyability of my playthrough had I not reloaded the save. In addition, this isn’t dnd. Sometimes, the actions available on screen arent exactly what you have in mind or want the character to do because they are predetermined. Being forced into a situation that you did not intend not because of other npcs doing something you didnt expect, but rather because your character did something you didn’t expect isnt fun. Especially when you consider how easy it is for characters to die because of the ai not following the path you intended for it to follow and they fell into a pit or something and they’re dead. Sure I could buy them back alive or revive them, but I had no control in stopping their death other than relinquishing control all together and making them stay put because they’re too sporadic with their movement. My point is save scumming isn’t inherently bad and is often done to create the most enjoyable story you can out of a multi option rpg. I’m curating the story I want through my first playthrough, and then any other playthrough after that I will be keeping save scumming to a minimum, allowing the game to be more random now that i know an outline of what I’m getting into. So a better way to put it is probably, save-scumming to curate the best story can be fine as long as it isn’t in excess, while opting out of save scumming gives a suspenseful random feel to create the least predictable playthrough, each being valid ways of playing the game.

There's a weird middle ground for combat when you simply misunderstand a game mechanic and do something with drastic consequences because you assumed logic would apply, but logic in these games is overwhelming for a newcomer given all the systems one has to consider. I do agree though, I have taken some of the excitement out of the dialogue options by assuming I know what I want and so I choose something else first just to see how different the outcome can be from my preferred choice. I have to take my time playing games like this because every aspect of the game feels like a grind when you want to appreciate it all at once.

I think safe scumming to minmax the stats part of the game is kinda whacky, because it takes away so much enjoyment from the story and how the world will create itself But if you safescum because you want your character to go with one specific check because it fits your characters vision more? Or because you RP as a chronomage? Do it! Have fun! Just dont fall prey to the mindset of "I need to minmax my stats", because that most likely will ruin your enjoyment of the story.

Ratatoskr you are a blessing on the gaming community. Your attitude towards your audience and matter-of-fact way of putting things gets your points across very well. I am a habitual save scummer. I am a save scumming addict but every time I do it I'm not actively thinking "I am ruining the game for myself." I do get that off feeling though. Like the experience I'm getting is somehow shallow. The facade is being lifted and Idk why. It's because the game isn't challenging me with failure or consequence anymore. It's just handing me what I want and I get addicted. Like when you eat too much of a food you like and it becomes unappetizing. DnD is improv. No matter what happens, you deal with the consequences. You roll with it. You roll the dice and see what happens. Your well-laid plans might work, or they might blow up in your face. If they blow up, you improvise and adapt to your situation. That is a core part of DnD and BG3 is DnD.

The problem with this perspective is that many outcomes are not interesting and are often sequence breaking because theyre impossible to get accounted for. For example let's say you are going to a base of goblins and you talk to the guards so they let you through. Now you try to persuade them and they get pissed off and attack you. It doesn't matter what you do, they will be permanently hostile to you even if you don't fight back and just run away. You can't even disguise yourself and try again, you and your party will have to murder every single goblin in sight. This is obviously very shallow, and will lead you into missing out on a ton of content. These kind of situations where theres literally pass the skill check or kill 50 people is one of the reasons people save scum.

The problem for me is that, like the Zelda guy, if save scumming is possible in the game it’s really difficult for me, personally, to not use it at all. I’d really like a ‘consequences matter’ game mode, one that will stop you from save scumming. One where, say, the game will automatically save when you do something with consequences and erase your old file. Obviously hardcore modes already do this, but they also make it so that one failure in the gameplay means you have to start from the beginning, and that’s something I’m not interested in.

I felt this when I was playing Pikmin 4 a couple weeks ago. I was fighting the final boss and I lost all of my Red Pikmin, after which a prompt spawned offering me a rewind to a point before I had lost them. I took it. And when it happened again, I took it again, and again, and again. By the time I actually beat the final boss (which I had a lot of trouble with), I wasn't satisfied or happy, I was annoyed and frustrated. That rewind feature is far and away the worst feature of Pikmin 4 (which had made a couple other decisions which I think harmed the game), and it diminished my enjoyment of other parts of the game because I relied on it way too much when the game got difficult. Frankly I think it was a big mistake for Nintendo to add that rewind feature. It's far too generous, and presenting it to the player after something bad happens to them is an awful decision. I hope that when Pikmin 5 comes out in 2037, they have the good sense to remove the rewind, or at least make it *way* less generous.

I think if I savescummed a lot, I would be ruining quite a few future playthroughs for myself. Infact I said on the first week of release to my friend that "You know it's a great RPG when you're already thinking of your future playthroughs and what you'll do different during your first one..." I wouldn't have that, if I savescummed around checking every option and going with the best one. So I can only imagine people who play like that are only ever planning to play the game once. Which, I guess is more understandable. But it also makes the game a lot more simple and a lot more linear in a way, as - like you said, you entirely eliminate any path where something went wrong, but you can remedy it or work around it in some way... and I'd argue that kind of a thing is more satisfying, finding a solution to something that went wrong afterwards. One of my memorable fights is when my entire rest of the team by my custom main character rogue went down and I just had to run like the wind to save myself, retreat and go buy revive scrolls, then managed to only afford one, sneaked back in there, revived the person who had an option to revive with a spell and went from there. So much more interesting than pressing F8 would have been imo.

I'm glad I read the comments section. I was very confused as to what was happening. I learned a new jargon phrase today!

The Zelda narrative is just one data point on a single game for a single person. I've ruined games in the past by doing exploits and save scumming, but over the years of trial and error and learning from those mistakes exactly how much and what kind of exploits will ruin the experience for me, and I can now apply that knowledge in order to create a balance between exploits and letting the story play out naturallu that maximizes my own personal enjoyment. Once I realized I was able to achieve that balance, I was able to even go back to games I had previously ruined for myself and start over and still get enjoyment out of it. But if you aren't given the opportunity to fail at maximizing enjoyment, you'll never be able to learn from that failure. BG3 might not be the best game to start that learning process with because it's such an exquisite game to have the experience ruined for it, but in general, I encourage people to go out and ruin games for themselves so they can learn how to achieve that balance.

As a chronic save-scummer, this is maybe the first game that actually made me feel guilty for doing it, so I'm trying to avoid it.

Having discipline and self-control is a good thing. Giving in to your impulses and desire for instant gratification is not always a good thing and can often have deleterious effects. Restricting the freedoms of others to minimise the potential harm they can inadvertently inflict on themselves can be a good thing. Completely removing the choice for people to do certain things can have unforeseen effects and is usually a bad thing.

Essentially it pulls the curtain and immersion is ruined... I agree 100%

This is why I prefer binary pass-fail checks based on skill level like in Fallout New Vegas or Pillars of Eternity. Rolling feels great when you win, and like bullshit when you lose, and definitely makes save scumming feel tempting.

I’ve played so many games I learned to understand most of them inside and out. It’s hard for me to truly immerse myself because I know that it’s constructed it’s not real. Because of my knowledge of how games work however I know how to reach that fun zone. For BG3 I love the world building so much I feel like it’s a disservice not to see everything possible. Save scumming allows me to explore every option and opens much more avenues to side quests and interactions with the characters. There’s so much you can miss by selecting one line of dialogue, it’s wild. I applaud larian for taking such a risk. Once I have explored most of the game I’ll likely play again without save scumming just to see how a natural progression of the game would look like. It’s a wonderful game.

Great video and a great idea. I used to save scum lock-picking chests when i run out of tools but will now stop doing even that.

May we play how we want, may we play how we need, but may we never play how we deserve.

The only character related savescumming I feel comfortable with is the kind that directly precedes a battle. Usually it's necessary because I'll die and not have enough revive scrolls/spells available. That way I get to see some of the other dialogue paths but I don't have to feel bad about redoing specific ability checks, since they usually just lead to the same fight anyway. It feels like I'll have to play the entire game twice if I want to experience half the options out there.

I started playing tabletop D&D two years ago and 100% agree that rolling with your failures is integral to a D&D game. Any real adventure needs stakes and drama and “oh shit what are we going to do now?” moments. Accepting the bad rolls also makes the good rolls so much sweeter, when you REALLY need this gamble to pay off and you roll that nat 20 and the whole table stands up and cheers. Embrace the dice.

Excellent! Excellent video! Everyone needs to hear this message. The future of gaming, and therefor of humanity itself, can be improved, can be brighter for us all, if enough of us are reached by the simple, yet profound, message of this video. I truly believe it is that important. I cannot thank you enough for making the video. And I offer my thanks to everyone who shows it to their friends, family, peers or coworkers. But that ending tho! That ending gets a Chef's Kiss of Approval! It was oh so delicious! Bravo good sir, Bravo!

I thought your voice and style of talking was familiar so I searched through your old videos and seen that you were also the person that did the "play as a wretch" video for Elden Ring, an advice that I actually followed through and made the game way more fun to me. In Baldur's Gate 3 I've been Save Scumming a lot, sometimes even redoing entire fights to try and have the best results and I fear that indeed it may be tainting the fun that I'm having with the game. It's nice to see this idea talked and explored about like this. It is fun and feels nice to succeed and do great on checks or battles but when things revolve only about succeeding and nothing else it becomes boring, of course because of the endless reloading and also because of how you are basically "invincible", although not in a real way. Maybe a weird take too but life isn't like that too, you do things and can't really take it back so it does end up chipping away at characters or choices in game since you can keep retrying it. Great video, thanks for talking on this!

I found myself feeling a similar feeling when I switched from console to PC. The amount of mods and the ability to edit save files and such has made some games, like Skyrim, completely unplayable because I KNOW I can just console command something I want whenever I want it. The freedom of mods and console commands has made the game no fun at all. And yeah, I know I can CHOOSE to not use them. But there will always be that voice to suppress.

Kenshi is very similar to this. It's a game which you can optimize and minmax, but it expects you to fail. Any momentary decision can result in a total disaster, and you're supposed to let it play out and see what happens. In fact, the characters you control can only get better by failing and suffering repeatedly. "Endure, and in enduring grow strong", as one Githzerai has said. If you take that away, there's nothing else left. The power that you might have would feel unearned and will ruin the satisfaction you could've had. In fact, many people even limit themselves further by having low party member count, never stealing or using Assassination, and so on. The only time you should really reload is if you've faced total wipe, and even then it might be better to start over since that usually only happens at the beginning.

I feel the same way about the hover bike in totk. After I realised all that was in the sky was shrines and koroks I couldn't resist just spawning the bike and cheesing every puzzle in the most boring, but easiest, way possible.

Wonderful video and you have convinced me because I too felt guilty and lost the fun when I was save-scumming.