🧡 If you find benefit in my videos, consider supporting the channel by joining us on Patreon and get fun extras like exclusive videos, ad-free audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂 📙 You can find my book here: books2read.com/buddhisthandbook
@RM-tk6gl Жыл бұрын
Doug nice to see you include theosophy/philosophy now and again, i can compare and contrast. Thanks. Pgh Ralph, Pittsburgh buddhist community...
@Diogenes515 Жыл бұрын
I think Epicurus argues that the ultimate pleasure is the absence of pain, which is arguably not so far from the Buddha’s cessation of suffering. The cosmologies of Epicurus and the Buddha are different, but perhaps the practical day-to-day counsels - to live wisely, honourably, and justly, and to control one’s desires - are pretty similar.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Right, which is why I was saying that for Epicurus the ultimate pleasure was ataraxy: complete mental tranquility and lack of pain.
@Diogenes515 Жыл бұрын
We agree.
@sideshow00 Жыл бұрын
Desires don't cause pain otherwise it wouldn't be a desire right?
@hcct4 ай бұрын
The similarities in these two movements/philosophies are pretty wild.
@hcct4 ай бұрын
@@sideshow00desires can lead to pain. They can cause existential trouble when they get layered with emotion and you don't know how to prioritize/categories them. Also, desires leading to pain incommensurate with the payoff is how addictions work.
@sihaves8808 Жыл бұрын
Thanks Doug. I'm a practising Epicurean. I personally see Ataraxia as a kind of mental contentment. I try and cultivate friendships, simple and easily obtainable pleasures and contemplated life and my place in it. Plus gratitude for what I have in life. I practice some mindfulness of breathing and Buddhist practices like Metta Bhavana.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
That's great, yes there is a lot of overlap!
@nickscurvy8635 Жыл бұрын
Epicurus taught in a nutshell? That's even more impressive than Diogenes teaching from a clay jar.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
😆😆
@poorpotato7623 Жыл бұрын
Hey Doug, I’m really glad you made this video because for the longest time I’ve been very cognisant of the similarities between Epicureanism and Buddhism. Interestingly, ataraxia as a concept was first introduced by the skeptic Pyrrho of Elis who followed Alexander the Great into the Indus where they met and talked with the Gymnosophists who were most likely the Svetambara Jains, Ajivikas or the Early Buddhists. The concept was then picked up and adopted by the epicureans and stoics and it was this concept that helped the epicureans build a very formidable philosophical system that distinguished them from the cyreniac hedonists. I have a suspicion that perhaps the early Buddhism was focused on the here and now ataraxia as opposed to nibbana. The pyrrhonians strived to achieve ataraxia thru epoche (which sounds very much like upekkha imo). My suggestion is that perhaps the ultimate antidote to the human condition is a meld of Epicureanism and secular buddhism. Epicureanism interestingly does not have a meditative tradition and would benefit from incorporating samadhi and sati and uppekha from the Buddhists while the Buddhists can incorporate the cosmology of Epicureanism and fully shed their links to the brahmanical concepts of rebirth and karma. Nevertheless I am glad you have embarked on this interesting foray into this area of classical philosophy. Please continue!
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Thanks, Potato! Yes, I think the ancient Greek Stoics and Epicureans (among others) have a lot to teach us. My focus will be on early Buddhism because I think it's much less well understood than is ancient Greek philosophy, and yet has a lot to teach us.
@TheHorseshoePartyUK Жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma There's a Psychology Today article about the overlap between Stoics and Buddhism. They are quite different but some similarities indeed! There is little, if any evidence of formal contact between West and East in those times. I speculate some thoughts are common across all of humanity, and also that merchants traded knowledge on the road! I enjoy philosophy from round the world, assessing it, and perhaps modifying it to my tastes. I am quite convinced though that pursuing pleasure for its own sake only creates negativity. Various quotes apply here: "To pursue the positive is itself, a negative experience. To accept the negative, is itself, a positive experience" - to paraphrase Alan Watts and his Backwards Law. Mark Manson also does an article relating to it for modern times with more data and graphics for those inclined to such things. "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst" - Unknown origin, many attributions variously from Maya Angelou, Marcus Aurelius and Benjamin Disraeli and more "Who is my Master? He who decides what I do or do not like!" - Epictetus, born a slave to become one of the most sought-out philosophers in Ancient Greco-Roman times. "Be strict with yourself and tolerant of others" - Aurelius, though easy for him to think from his lofty position as Emperor of Rome! "Be water" - Bruce Lee's philosophy as oversimplified as you can get.
@poorpotato7623 Жыл бұрын
@@machyndman9933 given that the human condition is the same regardless of the era, race, nationality and religion of human beings, the antidote is very likely the same regardless..
@Jp-sp3eg Жыл бұрын
You are really doing good work .Sadhuwad from India.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Thank you, Jp! 🙏
@lamnero Жыл бұрын
Thank you
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
You're welcome!
@thomasawdffaw123 Жыл бұрын
I would like to recommend the book "six myths about the good life - thinking about what has value" by Joel J. Kupperman, who discusses this topic in his first chapter.
@Hypatia350 Жыл бұрын
Thank you. This was intriguing and nicely put together. I'm looking forward to the next part.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Thanks Janine, more to come!
@genericsmithity2115 Жыл бұрын
yo how did this help you please respond fast
@jaydenclowers2616 Жыл бұрын
Pain makes us strong, too much pain makes us miserble. Too much pleasure pulls us far from the truth, the good amount of pleasure is needed for our existence. In life we will suffer, then be happy, then suffer, then be happy again, pain and pleasures helps make are life the good life.
@Tanner-gc9im Жыл бұрын
Unless you reach nirvana.
@chamarasampath6658 Жыл бұрын
Thank you so much sir. Every day i wach your vedio.... plz keep it up it very useful live to day life.... i am sri lankan university student (buddhist studies)
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
🙏😊
@kisstheflowers Жыл бұрын
I think that when we label and define a “good life” we create attachment and striving to these things that would bring us this “good life”
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Maybe so, but it can also be a spur to our efforts. It's complicated! See my earlier video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/kLqhnMV9sr-VfIE.html
@mikewright3633 Жыл бұрын
Thanks Doug. Great video 👍
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Glad you enjoyed it, Mike!
@divacassandra1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the informative video, Doug. Going to pull out some books as a result.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Excellent! 😊
@Giantcrabz Жыл бұрын
Great video! I love dialog between western and eastern thought
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Awesome! Thank you! 😊
@arthurchadwick1468 Жыл бұрын
I think a good life is one where you maximize experience. You are destined to have emotions and highs and lows. I think living in those moments of life is the best thing we can control about our lives
@jimheron4660 Жыл бұрын
Great video as always, Doug. You've a gift for this sort of thing! I've been slowly writing a piece on comparative views on the Holy Spirit, and some of the ideas you've mentioned here have appeared. Earlier today in church, the priest described a story about Moses mediating a war. The idea was that Israel would be victorious, as long as he held his staff up with both arms. Whilst I'm not atall sure, I think the sermon was meant to inspire endurance of suffering and valuation of effort over goals. This doesn't seem overly far from Buddhist non-attachment, even though they are clearly after a win 😅
@jimheron4660 Жыл бұрын
The priest in question has also lent me a book on the Benedictine tradition. Honestly it's not for me, though some of the monastic teachings are quite excellent. They had a 12 step ladder system which somewhat resembles the 8 fold path. There is a fascinating emphasis on the concept of meditative reading "lecto divina" which functions as mantra training. They teach that meditation is distinct from contemplation. Most interestingly for me, it's the idea that we can exist quite apart from the wordly ways, but not exactly in conflict with them.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Interesting, yes there is a lot from different traditions that I don't know enough about. Thanks, Jim!
@billhicks8 Жыл бұрын
I think the main aspect I find to be distinct in Buddhism amongst these philosophical approaches (and particularly emphasised in my preferred strain of Soto Zen), is the opposition to a purely intellectual approach towards alleviating suffering. The perspective of many Western philosophical approaches tend to emphasise the notion of rationality and logical reflection as being the tools we can use to come to terms with reducing pain while increasing appreciation of the "right" pleasures. However the key aspect I draw so much value out with Buddhism is its emphasis on quietening the mind through _practice_ and therefore letting go of the mind's need to take command of itself, which often leads to a separation of the body/mind. It is this "not one, but not two" approach to Being that seems so peculiar to the evolution of Buddhist phenomenology, and that resonates through the core of *practice* . I find it very curious that Western philosophers seem so quick to jettison the idea of physical practice, while in particular emphasising the superiority of rational thought. Alas maybe this is just an impression rather than a criticism I should level, but I can only speak to what methods have worked to improve my own life, and these have required that particular Quietist approach Buddhism offers.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Right, this is a key difference between Buddhism and western philosophy: the focus on practice, through quieting the mind in particular. There was a central place for reasoned, conceptual thought in early Buddhism, but it was only another path towards the goal, one that had to be pursued through practice. Important though not to lose sight of the fact that western philosophers did discuss practices, though they were mainly intellectualist in character.
@billhicks8 Жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma Indeed, Marcus Aurelius for just one example wrote of certain techniques one could employ in his Meditations. These do have a intentional and intellectualist character, and I would imagine they have the benefit of feeling a bit more immediate and substantive (e.g. reflecting on your smallness amongst the universe) than the rather cryptic nature of koans and sitting in front of a white wall letting thoughts drop off without trying to make them drop off, and so on...
@nordmende73 Жыл бұрын
Thank you!
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
You're most welcome, Mende!
@middlewayers Жыл бұрын
Ataraxy is the absence of pain.. The Goal of Dhamma teaching is not absence of pain..but rather remove repulsion for pain..
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Indeed, ataraxy is a state of mental tranquility or imperturbability consonant with the absence of mental pain. The goal of dhamma practice is nibbāna, which is achieved through removal of our craving for pleasures and antipathy towards pains.
@nathanaelarnquist Жыл бұрын
Doug, this video made me think of the general use of language and its possible faults or limits. I think of Wittgenstein and his consideration of the language of a lion, then that lion's world as tied up with that very lion's language---the limits of language in this sense. The criticism of Epicurus as a proponent of hedonism, while he meant to promote what he called ataraxy. How much goes miscommunicated like this? And what of the word "pleasure"? of "happiness" and "joy"? At around 5:30, the transition from the use of "pain" to "suffering," apparently equating the two. The mix-up or maybe something else, around the words "discontent" and "dissatisfaction" in this video, and how that does and/or does not matter in the communication, or how it may even aid some communication! What to make of these differences, I'm not sure. Different sounds, different spellings, but different meanings? I don't know. "The wise know the difference," I repeat to myself now. At times, a Buddhist may speak of the latent evil in "pleasure," and at other times, it appears as if a Buddhist speaks like we ought to encourage "pleasure." To some degree, and no small degree (perhaps the "full 360," even), it seems one should listen with faith so that one might understand, not looking to judge or criticize another's view by their words, stuck on semantics. A dangerous, harmful, self-flagellating insistence seems to lie in the correct sounds, the correct spellings, the correct sights. And the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice: extinguishment, Nibbana, Nirvana, true happiness---I have heard it transcends language, as it cannot be objectified. Specificity, specificity, specificity. Subtlety, subtlety, subtlety. How specific, how subtle is experience for our brutish, violent, forceful words, jamming squares pegs into circular holes? Or jamming square pegs into square holes, but lopsided so that the peg cannot fit. Well, those are my thoughts, but I just wanted to suggest this philosophy of language as a topic, maybe how it relates to the concept of right speech. Uniting, kind, purposeful, true speech.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Yes, inexact speech can be a problem, when it engenders misunderstandings. I think one other problem we should keep in mind is that of mental proliferation, which is also made easier through the use of language.
@Lee-Van-Cle Жыл бұрын
Thnx for binging the issue up. However, the philosophical approach to the pleasure problem could be confusing, and neural-study approach is perhaps more appropriate. For instance, pleasure seeking is a dopamine-driven action, but happiness can never be truly obtained. Instead, it only makes the seeking grow stronger and stronger. Conversely, happiness is from serotonin, and results in contentment. The Buddha emphasizes “Content with little,” which is in effect based on serotonin. Suffering, in modern terms, is Stress. Though not many scholars agree to that and they prefer to stick to Dukkha. Pleasure is for Stress Releasing, done in wrong ways though. Happiness is not for Stress Releasing, but a bi-product of that process done in a correct way, namely, mindfulness (of breathing, of course.)
@user-ic4ce8xb5v Жыл бұрын
🙏
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
🙏😊
@Diogenes515 Жыл бұрын
Mill’s reference to a pig is perhaps a little loaded. I wonder whether you have read John Gray’s recent book “Feline Philosophy”, in which he argues (my paraphrase) that cats are very good at living in the moment, and that the human capacity for complex thought may not necessarily be an advantage.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Interesting, though different from the Buddha's teaching for sure.
@middlewayers Жыл бұрын
Pleasure is a feeling.. feelings are not to be grasped
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Yes an important teaching of the Buddha.
@isaacgreenough6002 Жыл бұрын
❤️
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
🙏😊
@hiramcrespo7345 ай бұрын
I wonder what you think about Epicurus' doctrine of "suggenikon hedone" (congenital pleasure, or innate pleasure), which he mentions in his Epistle to Menoeceus, and how it relates to the Mahayana conceptions of buddha-nature and original enlightenment (hongaku, in Japan). It seems like Epicurus is giving a universal salvific doctrine that is natural, rather than super-natural, and has some of the same pragmatic repercussions as Buddha nature.
@DougsDharma5 ай бұрын
Interesting suggestion, would take a bit of research.
@Minnesangerxxx Жыл бұрын
Very interesting. Would it be possible to know more about the influence of Buddhism in Greek philosophy and western culture in ancient time? Milinda Panha is an example, but the Greeks arrived in India long before that with Alexander the great. I was also wondering if Buddhism could be considered the first universal culture that transcended a specific ethnicity.
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Well there doesn't seem to be any direct influence in this case. Epicurus was essentially replying to Socrates and Plato, who were contemporaneous with the Buddha.
@zerothehero123 Жыл бұрын
Zen Buddhism came about because of remnants of greek culture left from alexander's empire. The reason the buddha came to be worshipped as a personified being in statues is because of those greek influences.
@iallalli5223 Жыл бұрын
Doug real I is the absolute pleasure. When Doug is in nirvana I, nirvana I is that middle way. In nirvana I even hell is paradise, pain is no pain, suffering is no suffering, death is no death. Therefore in Dharmachakkappavattana sutta, this one sugest, Doug can find nirvana I. Because Shakya Buddha guide people to the absolute pleasure Dhamma lamp lightened world, which is nirvana I of Doug. Prove nice eternal life by Doug nirvana I self.⭕
@TheNalimo Жыл бұрын
Is Nirvana actually achievable as a permanent state if you take it to literally mean the cessation of all mental suffering within yourself? It seems more to me like a scale where you can move towards less suffering but never actually achieve it. It doesn't seem to be a switch like it is often laid out. (Very good video by the way)
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Thanks, Gus! In the early texts nirvana is described as a permanent state of the ending of suffering. Whether that's true or not, I cannot say. See my earlier video on two issues with nirvana: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jtF6o9No17SmhHU.html
@xiaomaozen Жыл бұрын
😊🙏
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
🙏😊
@prashantlakhera6156 Жыл бұрын
Hi Doug, I am able to attain deep concentration by suppressing thoughts but not by letting go of thoughts. Did Buddha say which is better way?
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Well the Buddha suggested various ways to get rid of thoughts, which I discussed in an earlier video: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fK6labl4mtibpnU.html
@mr.solitude3352 Жыл бұрын
Stoicism offers some of the most effective cognitive tools, IMO, towards a well balanced life. It's not that you desire (fill in the blank) that is potentially problematic; it's your attachment (underscored) to the desired outcome. Equinimity, or the state of passionate passionlessness, is the rudder that weathers many storms. Siddhartha Gautama's observation that desire is the root of suffering could've benefited from a dash of stoicism. :)
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Well it's not correct to say that the Buddha held that desire was the root of suffering. In that, I think Buddhism and Stoicism say nearly the same thing. I did a video on that popular misconception: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jMuDm7Ggur7SqKs.html
@mr.solitude3352 Жыл бұрын
@@DougsDharma I have played the game of Telephone often enough to know that, absent a written transciption of a man's actual words, all retellings are subject to modification in time. Holds true for the alleged comments of Jesus Christ as well.
@revenger806 Жыл бұрын
Could you please answer what is that which gets reborn in Buddhism?
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
I will be doing a video on that topic soon, though I have several earlier videos as well that touch on the question such as: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/f8d4Zsl9zbWXiJc.html
@middlewayers Жыл бұрын
Doug do you think that logic is an attachment?
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
Anything can be an attachment, it all depends how we relate to it.
@QuyNguyen-lm1gq Жыл бұрын
Pleasure is not always the way to a good life . It may even give rise to pain and suffering if not wisely enjoyed .
@DougsDharma Жыл бұрын
For sure. I'll discuss a bit of that in my next video.
@saralamuni Жыл бұрын
Cold is the absence of heat. Pleasure is the relief from pain. Both cold and pleasure are wrong conceptions, in reality there is no such thing.
@TheGreatAgnostic Жыл бұрын
That sounds nice, but I’m not sure you’d agree if someone started punching you.
@saralamuni Жыл бұрын
@@TheGreatAgnostic that there is no such thing as pleasure? I am referring to the first of the four noble truths.
@TheGreatAgnostic Жыл бұрын
Oh I see, my impression was you were doing the inverse in denying pain existed, my misunderstanding.
@saralamuni Жыл бұрын
@Sam Smith when you scratch an itch you may feel a pleasurable sensation but that is actually relief from the pain. Everything involving pain and pleasure works the same way. Cold is felt in the absence of heat and pleasure is felt in the absence of pain but both cold and pleasure are equally misconceptions; just varying levels of pain and heat relative to your current state.
@saralamuni Жыл бұрын
Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.