Dr. John Vervaeke and Jonathan Pageau in Dialectic

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Consciousness & Conscience

Consciousness & Conscience

Жыл бұрын

Having presented their own views on Consciousness and Conscience, Dr. John Vervaeke and Jonathan Pageau discuss the concepts presented.
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Пікірлер: 75
@PoesieUndGlaube
@PoesieUndGlaube Жыл бұрын
I love how deeply informed but at the same time extremely pragmatic Jonathans approach is. He's always keeping a practical grip in the real world, no matter how abstract his thoughts sound.
@PoesieUndGlaube
@PoesieUndGlaube Жыл бұрын
54:20 "The Nexus of a horizontal and a vertical transfer..." To me it sounds like you are describing a cross for me John...maybe not a cross but the cross(!) Just saying ;-). Loved the talk! It's a Joy to Listen to the both of you using different words to talk almost about the same things but still with a slightly different perspective so something new is able to emerge! That's Dialogos right?
@Jacob011
@Jacob011 Жыл бұрын
That was the most lit dialogos I've ever heard. Will have to re-listen again.
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Жыл бұрын
freakin' dank dialogos, dude
@JUXTAHRAW
@JUXTAHRAW Жыл бұрын
John was really on a hot streak there. We call that the flow state baby.
@SpencerTwiddy
@SpencerTwiddy Жыл бұрын
@@JUXTAHRAW ^
@mcnallyaar
@mcnallyaar Жыл бұрын
Haven't watched yet, but I just want to say going in that I love how Dr. Vervaeke helps me deal with my Christian heritage, while also finding transcendent meaning in the secular world, using non-Christian practices. It is so helpful that these two have dialogues together.
@mcnallyaar
@mcnallyaar Жыл бұрын
"My level of arousal is constantly evolving its fittedness to the context."
@shannonrosengarth8874
@shannonrosengarth8874 Жыл бұрын
“Jesus is just a copy on all these old gods, and it’s like, yeah, you mean, all of them ?!?!? Like, every single one of them?” Loved this so much! You are such an amazing distillery of truth, Jonathan! Thank you so much. 🙏
@lounaannajung4454
@lounaannajung4454 Жыл бұрын
I just re-noticed the cute illustration at the intro and outro of these videos and wanted to let whoever made those know, I really really love them! Thank you for your work! I particularly love the 4 corners aspect of it! 😉
@ew8311
@ew8311 Жыл бұрын
The organizers daughter made it. Very talented girl.
@gettingtogive
@gettingtogive Жыл бұрын
This was fascinating and brilliant. Thank you John and Jonathan 🙏
@HappyHeretic1035
@HappyHeretic1035 9 ай бұрын
This is like watching my left brain speak with my right brain about the reality of our existence.
@SpencerTwiddy
@SpencerTwiddy Жыл бұрын
these are the two, we need them
@leedufour
@leedufour Жыл бұрын
Thanks John and Jonathan!
@benk.psy32
@benk.psy32 Жыл бұрын
This is gold. Thank you both, once again, for allowing others to see the beauty of dialogos. When two masters of their craft collide in cordial discourse, insights emerge in abundance, as is evident here. Thank you once again
@ethanb2554
@ethanb2554 Жыл бұрын
Awe, we missed them embrace at (after the video ends). The result/cause of the the polar processes is the same result/cause of the two symbols of right and left hand, which of course is at the center of all those images: the Logos.That was a profound connection to be seen made. This was the best dialog they've had to date, by far.
@ivan.engelchristisking
@ivan.engelchristisking Жыл бұрын
My God, John, let Pageau speak.
@johnmartin2813
@johnmartin2813 Жыл бұрын
That sort of compression is what you're looking for in a poem. The images should be multivalent.
@bobdmb
@bobdmb Жыл бұрын
FANTASTIC! Thank you!
@mcnallyaar
@mcnallyaar Жыл бұрын
Parasympathetic: A Safe Context in which You can Recover, Recuperate, and Digest
@daves-c8919
@daves-c8919 Жыл бұрын
Guys, you’re looking for the difference between ritual and compulsion. That’s the difference between the sacred and the inner life. A compulsion is a private ritual that feels necessary, but in the end isn’t te centre line the individual needs.
@ChadTheAlcoholic
@ChadTheAlcoholic Жыл бұрын
Wow. This was superb
@mcnallyaar
@mcnallyaar Жыл бұрын
That Mother Joke got a Big Laugh from Pageau!
@tastytoast4576
@tastytoast4576 Жыл бұрын
My fave public intellectual duo
@ZZ-si8xf
@ZZ-si8xf Жыл бұрын
They go out, they go out, full of tears, carrying seed for the sowing: they come back, they come back, full of song, carrying their sheaves ~ Psalm 126
@issaavedra
@issaavedra Жыл бұрын
Amazing, thanks.
@sjorsvanhens
@sjorsvanhens Жыл бұрын
Two of the most interesting thinkers today
@CrystallineWyvern
@CrystallineWyvern Жыл бұрын
This became outstanding as it went on, especially the understanding of ritual as putting you into a state of meta optimal grip, like a martial arts stance from which you can best shift into various appropriate moves; the greatest chance of relevant transfer (and thus the mass doing this cosmically and putting the participants into a practice of reverence and love to spread out into the world) ^ very much freedom as perfect readiness as per DC Schindler's definition in The Perfection of Freedom.
@ivan.engelchristisking
@ivan.engelchristisking Жыл бұрын
The heart is what tells you what's important, John.
@focusedvegetable3655
@focusedvegetable3655 Жыл бұрын
Great conversation
@ivan.engelchristisking
@ivan.engelchristisking Жыл бұрын
The scaling part is more easily explained going down than going up to a person like VVK... Just use Aristotle. The identity of the sacred is suffused in all of creation, nested in a hierarchy, where every instance is an opportunity to participate of the sacred. If you treat each moment as sacred then you hold that moment to the standard of God. And that is very close although not identical to the image that Aristotle shares of virtue. It's about doing the right thing in the right at the right time. The divine is the throughline that knits all those moments together and that which they all share: the possibility of communion.
@CrystallineWyvern
@CrystallineWyvern Жыл бұрын
Very much akin to DC Schindler's definition of freedom as perfect readiness (and thus also akin to John on meta-optimal grip)
@AskEpic
@AskEpic Жыл бұрын
Dialectical beings. Learned a new word thanks
@GrimGriz
@GrimGriz Жыл бұрын
Just slap a picture of Jesus up every time John says sun around 39 minutes, and people will be able to understand Christianity
@shannonrosengarth8874
@shannonrosengarth8874 Жыл бұрын
You are exactly right! It’s CS Lewis on steroids combined with Acts 17:28 “For in him we live and move and have our being...”
@shamanic_nostalgia
@shamanic_nostalgia Жыл бұрын
Do you think Rudolph Steiner added anything to the understanding of Christ or is it bunk? I find his descriptions of the mystery of Golgotha and the interplay of Buddha and Christ very compelling. Namaste
@stevendavis8636
@stevendavis8636 7 ай бұрын
Jesus as a nexus of all things. A combination of everything. A source of ethical behavior. The cosmic meal that joins the masses. and becomes one all encompassing whole.
@ThePallidor
@ThePallidor Жыл бұрын
The point of Wim Hof Method is to unite sympathetic and parasympathetic. That's what the breathing does and that's also what relaxing in cold water does.
@yazanasad7811
@yazanasad7811 Жыл бұрын
Ask John about deepening Prajna exercise, stop breathing, focus on heart out and in
@ThePallidor
@ThePallidor Жыл бұрын
This convo needs some Hayek. Vervaeke is talking about setting up the conditions for a system to self-construct as a system of human action but not of human design. Spontaneous order.
@tara_artist
@tara_artist Жыл бұрын
About 23 minutes in, John Vervaeke says what sounds like: the "scincia" in to the "ativa". He then uses the example of " Seeing the whole universe in a grain of sand" right after. I am wondering if someone can tell me what these actual terms are and how to spell them. Thank you.
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Жыл бұрын
I think it's a buddhist phrase, sounds like scinci unativa, or something. nothing on google. He's talking about geist, though, and relating /relevance realization on objects and systems and how they extrapolate. The universe in a grain of sand is worth a google search though.
@peten5426
@peten5426 Жыл бұрын
'Scientia Intuitiva' from Spinoza. Not prepared to define the term but at least I could help with the spelling, ha!
@tara_artist
@tara_artist Жыл бұрын
@@peten5426 THANK YOU!
@peten5426
@peten5426 Жыл бұрын
@@tara_artist My pleasure
@primordialprana
@primordialprana Жыл бұрын
Inhale, and God approaches. Hold the inhalation, and God remains with you. Exhale, and you approach God. Hold the exhalation, and surrender to God. -Krishnamacharya
@total_leftie
@total_leftie Жыл бұрын
48:57 for proof Vervaeke is an angel
@franciscomartinez-up9lq
@franciscomartinez-up9lq Жыл бұрын
Wow
@avak19808
@avak19808 Жыл бұрын
Interesting you said two pillars Jonathan. I wonder if these two components of cognitive processing relate to Boaz and Jachin
@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760
@fishosoficaldebaitsphiloso7760 Жыл бұрын
Keypoint around min55 when John gets the crossbeams. It is followed by some clumsy attempt to go higher on Vervaeke’s part. I sense he will never get above that without God.
@Heraclit33
@Heraclit33 Жыл бұрын
Why in Dialectic? Why not in Dialogos?
@JiminiCrikkit
@JiminiCrikkit Жыл бұрын
Very good.
@CraigTalbert
@CraigTalbert Жыл бұрын
I want to hear more about the demons.
@polymathpark
@polymathpark Жыл бұрын
Do you think the body is more so in symbiosis or in a tug of war of resources, like the opponent processing vervaeke describes with his hands? Some biologists and nutritionists describe the microbiome and the cells being at war, there are more bacteria in us than cells and all that...
@ThePallidor
@ThePallidor Жыл бұрын
Those biologists are wrong, and there is no war within the mind or body, other than in people with some degree of mental health problems. In civilization, yes, parasympathetic and sympathetic are in conflict BUT only because civilization is not natural. In civilization we are either in sympathetic mode or parasympathetic mode, but in nature or in a fully natural act, we can be in both. Is sex relaxing? Yes, very. Is it exciting? Yes, very. Flow states are both. Working in a cubicle job is often neither, or just one or the other. It's only both if you get into a great flow state crunching numbers in Excel.
@ThePallidor
@ThePallidor Жыл бұрын
Bacteria in the body, and every other living thing that makes its home in the body, helps the body. The idea of "bad bacteria" is a pernicious myth. Microbes that live in the body are never the enemy, despite a million fables spun since Pasteur.
@mcnallyaar
@mcnallyaar Жыл бұрын
Sympathetic: Threat or Opportunity to Raise Arousal
@CarlosVargas-jz8gl
@CarlosVargas-jz8gl Жыл бұрын
I get that Vervaeke has understood and been a leading man in most of the concepts that have been floating as in what Paul calls “this little corner of the internet”. And his work is the reason why Paul and Jonathan talk to him so much, but most of the time I get a little repelled and lose attention in his wordy language. I’m too uneducated perhaps, maybe I need more exposure to him but he’s too technical in things he’s trying to express. Maybe that’s not the word for it, but it feels unnecessarily heavy. I do understand what he’s saying but it feels like he’s gone from it from all sides and is trying to cover each and every one of the sides and it feels unnecessarily heavy. Hard to explain it just has unnecessary weight to it. Dead weight could be the word.
@shawnqwiliso3192
@shawnqwiliso3192 Жыл бұрын
You just need to be exposed more to him as you suggested. It was the same for me with all of them. It's wonderful how the brain connect the dots when you attend to anything for an ample amount of time. Trust me Vervaeke's work plays a humongous role in all of this.
@johannesbaptistlotz9650
@johannesbaptistlotz9650 Жыл бұрын
Vervaeke's opening remarks were highly condensed. I think he is trying to strike a balance between explaining things to people who aren't already familiar with the idea he wants to express, but at the same time he doesn't want to spend too much time explaining things that others have heard him say dozens of times.
@ThePallidor
@ThePallidor Жыл бұрын
At his worst Vervaeke can slip into "too much in his own head" private language where he verbally gesticulates at the idea with too-condensed of a term, but over time the points should land.
@kennethadams8835
@kennethadams8835 7 ай бұрын
I felt exactly that way and yet there was something in it that drew me in. I followed the entire Awakening to the Meaning Crisis series and then his interviews with others and gradually began to grasp more and more of his concepts after repeated listenings. What can be is especially helpful are interviews with people uninitiated to his ideas...like Lex Friedman and some others floating around where he breaks down his ideas in understandable ways. I listen and watch while working out so I have time to absorb this stuff although admittedly I feel like I should be taking notes in class. But hours of exposure will yield greater understanding and in my opinion well worth it. Also his Theory of Everything interviews including the ones with Bernardo Kasrtrup are especially elucidating. Good luck I think he is a brilliant man with some helpful insights to share with humanity.
@Charles-ij1ow
@Charles-ij1ow Жыл бұрын
After a while of being sucked in, trying to look for gems of wisdom, I remember Jon thinks all of this Jesus resurrection stuff is real, so I get discouraged from listening further.
@ivan.engelchristisking
@ivan.engelchristisking Жыл бұрын
Who are you to frame Jonathan as not right and all this being about re-grounding democracy? Lol. Democracy is a failed system.
@KalebPeters99
@KalebPeters99 Жыл бұрын
What system do you suggest instead?
@ivan.engelchristisking
@ivan.engelchristisking Жыл бұрын
@@KalebPeters99 Monarchy
@lkwalden7
@lkwalden7 Жыл бұрын
@@ivan.engelchristisking Both systems are capable of being run by benevolent or malevolent individuals.
@missh1774
@missh1774 Жыл бұрын
Democracy is as old as Zoroastrian. Like any civilisation going through big change, democracy too needs help to realign it's purpose.
@ThePallidor
@ThePallidor Жыл бұрын
There has never been and never will be a democracy. We live in an aristocracy. Democracy is just the window dressing for the masses. Voting makes zero difference. We need a tool to ground aristocracy, which is apparently Christianity since Christianity is what was around back in openly monarcic/aristocratic days. The *illusion* of democracy is what killed God, and the reason for that illusion was collectivist scientism where "anyone can contribute" regardless of intelligence. The old system of thinkers like Mach and Berkeley was a system of individualist "science" in the old sense of logical reasoning with great semantic clarity, based on a first-person epistemology, with religion taken less directly literally by the aristocracy, who were the intellectuals. Now everyone is an intellectual but they're collectivist in their approach. Social, not truly analytical.
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