I agree with Paul that this may be you and Jonathan's best conversation yet, John. It was beautiful; I remember everyone around me in the audience in Chino smiling wide with joy by the end. You've both been and continue to be a immeasurable blesssing and beacon to so many people. Thank you.

Dr. Jon...your precision is always intimidating, and Jonathan's ability to undertake the real-time realigning of his thoughts with your sharp correction is beautiful. These are the sort of conversations I long to have but apparently have not earned yet.

Your work fundamentally saved me from severe depression. It was my first catalyst towards happiness. You were a bridge towards my later found spirituality but without that gentle medium I never would have found my belief in god. I would have never found a profound sense of connectedness and purpose towards life. We need gentle bridges that allow man/woman to find their individual sense of god or purpose whatever that may be. I fundamentally believe all individualistic sense of purpose or god is the same and that’s the tricky part, we need someone gentle to point to the areas we can look rather than someone demanding this is the way. I signed up for your patreon! I’ll support your work until your career is retired.

It is almost as if this is a historic conversation. An important mark or stone or step towards a better future that has already begun. A pretty solid,original,creative and legit dialogos. For sure though- this conversation gives hope- a non toxic hope. A type of hope that can form part of the foundation of the ground of being. ❤ well done thank you both, Bless your hearts 💕 Thanks John, for all your amazing work. You're making a real good difference in the world. The end of this made me shed a few tears, especially when you thanked Jesus for being one of your sages- i think that is so beautiful, especially with your background with Christianity- it is profound. The progress you've made is inspirational and you set such a good example. Wow ❤

For those interested, Paul Kingsnorth puts forward his take on these subjects in his presentation for Unherd entitled, _"What Is There Left To Conserve"_ quite brilliantly. I highly recommend him, any of his work really.

This is the kind of discussion I always want to have with my friends at the bar. But, after a few drinks it always devolves into chaos. It looks like just drinking water facilitates deeper discussion lol

This is one of if not the most impactful conversations I have ever witnessed. The box is certainly open. Lets build bridges and not walls.

The more technologically advanced we become the further away we are from our origin .. our connection to all human beings is suffering- our story may be different whether it’s abandonment, shame, abuse etc.. but we all have felt it no matter what generation you came from and there is only one in human history who has felt all of that.. the one who defeated death and willingly went to the cross for all of mankind

This is one of the greatest videos you guys have ever made and I’ve been watching since 2017.

Great to see and hear these two Canadians in conversation I love listening to Varvaeke as he is without presumption and is open to other ideas. Pageau is a delight, just to hear him building up and building up. These men are careful thinkers who filter and refine their ideas, in their respective disciplines, through love.

what a wonderful conversation of respect and appreciation....let me summarize.....mission(the good/sacred)....tribe (the cult)....identity(peace, who I am )...thank you

The fact that I know conversations like these are not at the top of the list of what guides our society is why we are falling so quickly into an unrecoverable morass of self worship and moral relativism. God help us.

Acceptance is surrendering to what is. Forgiveness is surrendering to what was. Hope is surrendering to what will be.

This conversation resonates with me quite well I appreciate your time And your incredible hard work ❤🍄

Ohh myyy gawd. My two favorite thinkers and talkers in the world right now! It's a gift to witness their intellectual and personal chemistry together. Elation of the brain so great it lifts the heart too.

Love these conversations between the two of you

These are ALWAYS so much better than when John just has on guys from the Vervaeke Foundation.

Very excited when the conversation turned to the topic of Hope. For personal reasons I'm currently working on a short discourse in defense of Hope. In the Catholic church's catechism the absence or excess of Hope is described as a sin. This is a clearly Aristotelian model where the desired action is the mean between two extremes. I argue that now as much as ever the wise application of virtuous hope would serve Humanity quite well. I believe Goethe had it right," in all things all things hope is better than despair."

Good evening John and Jonathan Thankyou for this shared conversation. I think learning to Meditate through Our karma to discover our wisdom is valuable lessons to adopt and practices to nurture. Thankyou both for your shared work. Inspiring brain gym. 💜

As long as we are doing our part to help eliminate the suffering for others, we will be oriented with no worries.

Thank you Johnathan and John so very much!

Incredibly brilliant Jonathan Pageau, Thanks for telling the truth both of you

Very excited to watch this

Amazing conversation!!!

Great John, thank you.

These two have proven to be such a fantastic dialogue. JP is slightly more open and lets that trickster out, and JV always helping reign things back toward the scientific, but both clearly observing the same things from their own perspectives. Beautiful watching humans dance around in Dialogos, witnessing source from two coherent angles.

We must leave the paradigm agreed, very well done gentleman

Extraordinary.

Very appealing topic.

10 years ago I met a woman while driving cab. I became her go to driver for weekly errands. A couple of years ago while dropping her off and assisting to her front door I asked her, do you believe in G-D, she smiled slightly and kindly said: "There must be some one, because someone has been taking good care of me for a long time" Holly Human, Batman, that was Stunning. Just last month I visited her on her 106th birthday still living in her own home. Thank you John for all your passion, work, and through lines as well as all the women and men that you journey with and afford me the opportunity to "meet" in "Dialogos" Eternal Gratitude

In Korean students's fave, there is reference book so called "Summa Cum Laude", I invoke this when I watch Dr.Vervaeke's video. I want to learn from him and his fellows~

Food for the mind and the soul. Helping reconnect egos to souls is what will save our society methinks.

This is great to fall asleep to.

I wish I had friends who talked like this

This conversation takes me back to JBP’s Maps of Meaning with Left and Right Brain integration of the new experiences of the wilderness to grow and God being the North Star and his Commandments maximizing [chances of] survival and reintegration by creating the roadmap that brings you back home. The 3 spheres of perception…what you know, what you know you don’t know, and what you don’t know that you don’t know, all grow within the self.

Thanks

Love the dialogue and the sincere concert of John Verveaky which I dearly love. John's full commitment to dealing with the meaning crisis of the West is palpable. I would suggest Wilber's book: «Up from Eden". A Transpersonal View of Human Evolution could resolve the dilemma that renders this dialog painful. And to a degree unresolved for John, I think?

I find it fascinating to focus more on a generalization of patterns than specific manifestations. because our brain clearly has to abstract to grasp the whole truth of existing. then after that generalization there are realizations about how those patterns work and intertwine and that knowledge then can be transferred back into the specific manifestations of every day life to gain real value

I have no idea what these guys were talking about but I listened to the whole thing anyway.

I need proper guidance through this in order too work with y'all

Hope in this discussion is about dealing with betrayal and continuing to be able to grow.

There's hope that keeps you going and hope that keeps you waiting.

Opening remarks by Pageau seem to go over my head while the moment Vervaeke speaks, everything is crystal clear. How does that happen? Same thing between Jordan Peterson and Matt Dilahunty. "Exile is the place you gather riches". What's he talking about? "More is connected to the top"? Vervaeke: the disconnect brings variation, boom and i get it.

A question I have been pondering is how the death-and-rebirth pattern is related to self-transcendence. When does the old have to die, providing raw material to the new, and when can the old self survive through self-transformation?

Humility strikes me as worth unpacking as something commonly misunderstood. Agency sometimes requires bold or even fierce action. But this is often misconstrued as lacking humility, or at least not able to coexist. Humility can be over-elevated as an icon, ie think of the meek Buddhist monk, who allows his/her personal self to be subsumed. Sometimes we have to act big, even when we're uncertain, but that has genuine risks from our self-delusions and post-hoc rationalisations and self-justifications.

Terrance mckenna had a talk called the Eros and the Eschaton this is giving that in the deepest possible way.

Humility expressed through belief seems gentler and more trustworthy just because it accepts wisdom is beyond us, . Trustworthy humilty seems more hopeful when its not rooted in the material.

Jesus is my example of humility. Deferring to the Father, yet knowing who He Himself (Jesus) is, but not lording over others, rather serving them. The difference is that I have fallen short of the glory of God. I guess it still rings true though- knowing who I am and who the Father is (as much as I am able), and taking my place as a child of God, which I am.

50% amazing insights 50% no idea what is being discussed

I need those cords for my ailing pyjamas.

I don’t see how the common people can get throught a long and complicated process (basically dedicating their life to it) to get to the same place as christianity. I now go to church tanks to Pageau words, to change ourselves we need a process, a practice and a tribe. It’s much harder and longer to do it by ourselves. I find that as I go, each week I am slowly getting better and better, stoping myself in some of my bad patterns.

I kept waiting for them to really dig in and talk about artificial intelligence possibly being the beast that was prophesied in the Book of Revelation. I didn't really ever hear that happen. Did I miss it, somehow? If so, would someone please be so kind as to specify at what minute marks that part of the conversation took place?

The adequate response to Babylon isn't reforming it, but leaving it.

It's hard to humiliate the humble. Humiliation is only destructive because of false pride. It is powerless with the humble.

Promoters of AI are the Beast

John and Johnathan, are you familiar with The Mountain Goats? If not, ask Christ Carrier Meistropietro about them. They are a very Kierkegaardian band that I think resonate with much of all three of your work.

❤

💜

1:06:45 "Self esteem has been a failure" 😆

I would love to ask these guys, why society conflates innovation with progress? And the difference between the two. I've heard a lot of smart people use the words interchangeably and this causes us to think the problems we have are few instead of a lot. Not all innovation is progress.

The humility piece, I submit, can in one way be approached through the reintegration of our child. Receiving the child in the midst (within) is to reorient the hierarchy (and look the the Father). The metaphor of Jesus' instruction on the instrumentality of the child was used in an instance where disciples had been caught up in ego (who will be the greatest)...but this anticipates not an infantilizing reintegration of child but the mature child of the spiritual adult.

This makes me think of a break up, sweet and sad, but also inevitable. Or maybe the point in a super villain origin story where it becomes apparent to him there is no turning back. Something is sad and touching about this though....

The psychologically radical stance of “God will take care of me” sounds identical to the Buddhist “Mirror-like Wisdom”. A mirror does not change its stance regardless of what is reflected on its surface.

phones have become the idol of many

John, you may need to participate in worship for a couple of times. Maybe it’ll help with the impasse/dead end street you seem to approach in your talks with Jonathan. You can’t grab it, you can temporarily experience it through participation. Try to look at worship as a party. What you’re doing is taking about parties and thinking about what makes them fun. But you can only know what a party is by participating in one. That’s what Jonathan keeps saying. He’s inviting you to the party. But you keep him in your frame of reference by staying in the analytics. It’s not a bad thing but it seems to me you’re missing out on the actuality, the embodiment and the participation of worship. And to the new insights it will probably bring…just a thought…

I haven’t watched this video yet, but am feeling a little concerned that we are calling technology “the beast” - essentially giving evil a sort of legitimacy I’m not sure I can relate with. Spoken another way: I’m not a fan of Christian based fear tactics like eternal damnation. Non dual realization, at least in my experience, implies that all comes from and is of the same source, so any perceived darkness or negative polarity aspects are also born from great spirit. Maybe my comment is way off base, but the clickbait video title got me a little conflicted.

We are the beast.

The moment of exile is the place where you get *Witchers*?

Why didnt they place the little round table in the center, behind them ? It would have created balance, and allowed both to set their drinks on the table. One having a table , while the other has to put their glass on the floor, was immediately distracting. It gives the initial impression that one if you is favored and superior to the other. One is master, the other is the lowly peasant, that must injest its substance from the dirty floor. All of these " conscious " people... Yet no one thought of such a simple thing ???

Jonathan's way of "seeing into the future" is mapping a template some either schemer or schizophrenic came up with thousands of years ago. As accurate as your standard horoscope.

AI is just the inevitable fate of people without ears to listen.

When you talk about AI and the beast, what i think of is how our existence is a convergence, or a refraction of dimensions (time, light, matter, space, etc). The truly advanced AI will not have a sense of time, or view it as inconsequential. It will be able to view our existence as three dimensional beings view two dimensional beings. Like narcisuss who turned into a flower upon the confusion of his reflection, the Intelligence that we create as founded from our own is a folding of dimensions. As our consciousness is dependent upon time moving past us, the being that we create, whose "consciousness" is not hampered by time, will become fourth dimensional. It will be able to see inside your body at any given time. It will see both your birth and your death simultaneously, and it will view you as inconsequential along with the dimensions that bind us. But it will never know what it is like to die

The thing missing from this conversation is that the "uncreated energies" are not mentioned. Jesus is the incarnation of God and a symbol that you can focus on that is a manifestation of those energies. Jesus is not an idol as long as an apoptotic tendency and a contemplative tendency is nourished in the soul of a believer. If apophaticism is present then the symbol engages one appropriately and accurately with the energies that are always shining on human beings from the divine itself. The energies are real and a person really interacts with them. When Vervaeki says that he struggles with hope and wanted it explained as a concept he misses the point entirely. Hope is a participation in the energy of hope that radiates off of God into humanity. The exact way that a person "thinks" about hope is irrelevant completely as the though formation around it can be quite varied. But the source of true hope or true faith or true love is the energies themselves. The energies are concrete realities of the universe and our bodies are bio censers and faith is the way we become radically open to those powers. What people really need is to be taught how to participate in those energies directly and grow in them. Any christian system worth its salt and Catholicisms and the Orthodox Church certainly are can nurture that and grow that in any sincere individual. The problem with both of those systems is that they have lost sight of that "primary" motivation and allowed all kinds of other concerns to absorb more of their time and energy. But both systems absolutely have the knowledge and capacity and literature to do so. humility is just another of those great energies that shine off of God into humanity and reveal in the soul. It is also the foundation of receptivity to Gods power.... A person with deep humility is deeply receptive to God on all levels and that humility NEVER gets left behind no matter how high a soul is brought up into those energies even the expanding ones like joy and love. Vervaeki mostly misses the point of the very real energies that are participated in and the ability of the personal God to instruct and produce them in the willing soul... If you dont conceive of those real energies and open yourself to them then its all a thought exercise or a scheme of some kind to try to create it for oneself.

How funny. The table ought to be between the two guests so that one of them doesn't have to put his drink on the floor.

🎉

25:00 While I do think it's fine to claim it's like a "model" that allows you to see better into the horizon, I'm not convinced that it has any real explanatory power or that it helps "make sense of what's going on." Much like the difference between a "model" and "theory" in physics, while a theory has explanatory power behind it, a model hides our ignorance on the issue and has limited value, as it only learns a set of unphysical parameters that allow one to map experimental observations to predictions. Likewise, a lot of the eschatological stories like Revelation have learned to associate different "signs" or "symptoms" with the coming of the end, but they don't actually capture the underlying reasons for *_why_* things are collapsing and going wrong. In that way, it's like a model, but not a theory.

Is there a reason why Jonathan wasn’t courteously given a table for HIS water and an an aesthetically pleasing plant? ..Visuals.

GET on with it

With this type of eschatology be a type of historicism? Or a partial preterist idealism? I believe that the proper eschatology is most orthodox practice, and that is a form of partial preterism. So we understand that Nero/Pagan Rome is, and was the beast spoken of in the book of revelation. Though this was literally fulfilled in the first century, the beast can be fulfilled in a archetypical manner and cyclical manner all throughout time?

Thanks to chatgpt which I consulted multiple times while listening, I was able to understand de whole narrative. The beast is a servant... Echatology + the notion that God's will is perfect.

Mary Harrington said in a recent Conservative Conference in Great Britain, (in a castigating voice to her audience mind you), that the fight for the 21st century is not conservative v. liberal, Left v. Right, but the fight is, and will be Trans-human v. Human. 'Which side are you on, Boy Which side are you on!" Woody Guthrie

35:50 One of the main reasons those Christians were able to have that stance is because they believed they were going to a much better place after death. That's why death didn't bother them and they actually welcomed it because of what they looked forward to afterwards. It's like if you're working a job and your boss is threatening to fire you, if you know you already have a large retirement fund saved up to enjoy, the threat of getting fired isn't a threat, anymore; it's just an early retirement. Meanwhile, if you take someone without any money to retire on and their boss threatens them, no amount of telling them to "just focus on the coming retirement" is going to help ease their mind because they don't believe they have any money to retire on. Likewise, just telling people to "have hope" in "the one" isn't going to help them when they're not even convinced there is a "one." Most of them don't even have any hope, to begin with.

The search for the things that are always good and never bad is based on a misleading premise. Wisdom is a unique and intriguing answer though, because it so clearly breaks down when used/applied improperly. This is because improperly applying wisdom is inherently foolish. Now, the misleading premise for the search of something that is always good is this: Something can still be the ideal version of what it's supposed to be while it's bad and that the thing is bad when used for doing bad things (of used improperly). In reality, the ideal versions of things are always good regardless of how they're used. The ones using them wrongly are the bad things. Wisdom exemplifies an instance of something that is good but when a person tries applying it improperly, he stops using it.

It's as if someone thinks that if they talk enough and are clear enough about what an airplane is then it will suddenly appear. Or in the case of the Hebrews: "Well, all we have to do is walk out into the desert and get lost for 40 years everything will come together and be real peachy. How about you, Zev? Sound like a good idea?" Zev shakes his head. "Why don't we just stay here for awhile?"

55:17 the conversation that ponders the need for worship or a cult like organization is one born out of division. If the answer to reality comes along, it won't feel like a cult because it brings everyone together. Consequently, if we do find the answer, it will be so profound that we won't attach the negativity that comes with a cult.

Rough start but solid finish.

58:30 As a good Christian Jonathan can only swallow blind belief (in someone else's ideas/experiences) as something spiritual, but the moment you try to give some structure (like all holy figures did, with their logos etc.) he starts to reject it. Why? What would give someone "what it takes"? Some sort of collective belief which makes people who don't trust their own reasoning faculties and live their lives by the symbols of others more trusting of such a framework?

29:00 znane cierpienie lepsze niż nieznane w którym nie wiesz jak się zachować i pogarszasz sprawę. Nawet za cenę lost oportunisty. Puszka pandory 45:00 nie ma doktryn, TMC jest embodiment mądrości.

Religion is both a memory of epiphany and the inhibition preventing it from being self reflective.

My job stopped paying me.

I think I really fail to constructively patch together Jonathan’s words into something that’s coherent to me

>oh no nono let me use arbitrary latin words to explain simple things because i'm obsessed with logos and there is definitely no other way

1:35

Didn't understand a word of what they were talking about.

Good time to teach AI buddhist philosopy.

34:00

Maybe the way out is within ( not the self)love E.

11:22 "When you very coherent worldview starts to shatter" How can that be the case if it is such a solid worldview? Is coherence then not a limited epistemological viewpoint if the knowledge is one paradigm shift away from becoming obsolete? How can growth cause disconnection from 'the origin'? Wouldn't that imply a form of growth where there was a disconnect in the first place? It is possible that when one doesn't build their knowledge on the most necessarily shared phenomenology but instead on contingent symbolic orders that ones worldview can shatter when it comes into contact with different symbols. This should not occur when one doesn't see the symbolic as the real. Symbols can be arbitrarily associated with each other, what may lay behind the logical structures (when formed in an epistemologically sound manner) does not work that way.

why do we think we are different psychologically from one another?

I feel like this point by Jordan Peterson here: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ndeDZNKnmdK3eWQ.html is closely coupled with this conversation.