Have you tried TrainerRoad's training plans? What was your experience?

TrainerRoad seems to have taken your criticisms to heart - the app is now very aggressive with their adaptations to avoid too much training stress, and has created what they call “Masters Plans” that prioritize more recovery. Would love to see you do an updated analysis with the new changes!

I'm an old(er) cyclist who used to amateur road race in the 80's, training "traditionally", with lots of and lots of miles of easy seat time before race season and incorporating two interval (formerly called fartlek or speedplay) sessions a week . I LOVED cycling and had some success back in the day. Fast forward 35 years and wanting to get back into cycling seriously, if not competitively, well masters maybe, I signed up for Zwift , Trainer Road, Sufferfest and used the tools of the internet to catch right up and it seems Dylan is spot on. I thought decades of time and science would have improved training by now, but every program I tried, I burned out and burned out within weeks and I dreaded getting on the bike for the next session. Yes age is a big factor, but I also saw the low intensity, long miles that was specifically "not recommended" in Trainer Road (considered the most serious of the training programs) and against my better judgement thought oh they must know better because, well, it's been 35 years. Well sometimes, when something works, it works, even if it's old school. Just get out and ride for the love of riding. The rest will follow. I do love power meters though!

I don’t always follow a training plan, but when I do, I usually sabotage it with my own BHD mentality

Dylan I'd be really surprised if anyone would unsub to you for giving us the raw science. That's kinda what we're here for!

I hope they invite you to their “Successful Athlete” podcast, where you can discuss this in person in depth...

Me: watching a video agreeing with what Dylan is saying while on the trainer doing my 4th TR intensity workout of the week...

Thank you!!! The science has always backed up a more polarized training schedule for endurance athletes. As a mom of two very fast high school girls it has taken time to convince my kids that in order to go fast you must learn to go slow. It is in large part your videos and Joe Friel’s books that finally convinced them. As a result, my 17 year old won the state championships here in Utah for Varsity girls by 3 minutes and she was one of the few on the line that had not hired a professional coach. Now we have a coach helping her to get ready for nationals who tried to convince her that sweetspot was the way to go. Your video today was just what she needed. The training schedule will remain polarized! Thank you for having the courage to put this video out today, it needs to be said.

Nate will take offense, Chad will say the science shows he is right, Jonathan will awkwardly giggle and say "Right Amber?)

**Shots fired** Edit now that I've watched the video: Dylan, excellent video. It's a challenging topic and is directly critical of a major training platform for competitive cyclists. But you speak to something that comes up in their podcast, and comes up with frequency within various threads in the TR forum (e.g., threads on the benefits of their traditional base plans or threads on Maffetone-style training): that their plans are super sweet spot heavy, and that that's often (always?) suboptimal. And you do so in a way that's careful and pretty respectful. Nate, Amber, Coach Chad, Jonathan, and the others are doing amazing things for training with power. I like their platform, and love many of their workouts. I'll keep subscribing because of that and because I see it as a worthwhile proxy for supporting the excellent podcast. But I don't do their SSB plans, and you provide deeply factual and well-researched reasons on why those plans are problematic. Now it just remains to be seen if and how TR responds to this video. (I hope they do so humbly and with research and focus on what's best for athletes.) Thank you for the research (!) and for posting!

*quickly uses this as an excuse to not hop on the trainer today and do prescribed session

I like TrainerRoad, but you make a good point. I hope they listen or respond respectfully. 👍 Good work Dylan.

I love TR and their podcast. It’s taken me from a decent age grouper to back of the pack professional and I am self coached. But I agree with you 100%. I have tried their plans 2x and on both occasions, I was fried after 1 month. Instead, I pick and choose my workouts from their library and do my own thing based on the science and how my body is absorbing training.

the video we have all been waiting for. Hopefully they do a rebuttal on their podcast - would be good to see how they come back on your points

I've switched to polarized training based on your earlier videos. That helped me understand that the TR sweet spot plans were too much for me. I still use TR for the library of workouts, but my training plan is based on polarized training. Thanks for the video DJ.

Thanks for doing this. I also love the TR podcast. They're a great group of people doing a lot of good for cycling and bringing a high dose of enthusiasm. So this was a tough task. Thanks for taking a shot at an objective analysis. These sorts of discussions are needed!

lol… took almost the whole video to figure out you were saying "pyramidal" instead of "pure middle" :D

Brilliant and timely for me. The best cycling information on KZfaq. 🙌

Spot on. It’s about time someone covered this topic. Good on you for having the balls to cover it.

Dylan, I appreciate that you use data to back up what you tell us. I have a background in fitness and also coach juniors, you are spot on. Thanks for not being another coach that pushes no rest.

Great content. I look forward to the TrainerRoad response. They are usually very thoughtful and sound in their advice.

Looking forward to this 💯 I started on trainerroad but have a coach now... I found I just got really good at 20 minute efforts and had no base/endurance but some of the workouts are great fun... it’s just bloody brutal 😂

You did a great job supporting your position. Well thought out, backed up with sound studies, and well communicated. It is telling when one of the TR coaches can only do three weeks of their plan.

Thanks for another good video! I used TR for a while but I got over trained just as you say. I am happy I found your channel so I could plan my training better.

Gutted to hear this. I love TrainerRoad and it got me into structured training, but now I have a coach and listening to what you say, it makes so much sense. I really struggled as you go through the week blocks, especially as you get into the phase 3 blocks. As always, great content! Thanks 🙏

I would be living in ignorance without Dylan's great videos.

Thank you so much for making this video. I subscribed to TrainerRoad for 6 years and appreciate many things about them. I give them credit for making indoor training much more fun (used them before Zwift). I found riding their graphs addicting! I had good success racing while using TR too. But I would regularly hit my highest numbers of the season in late February and would carry significant fatigue thereafter. Racing successes came in spite of this and I never felt great. I always assumed this was due to shortcomings in my physiology. I am thankful to have run into the work of Stephen Seiler and am grateful for people like you who asserting thoughtful material and issuing critiques that I think are essential if we are all going to continue to grow as a cycling community. I think and hope TR will respect your intentions will grow because of conversations like this. Everyone I know who uses them uses their plans as loose guides and just picks a couple of the harder workouts to use every week, anyway. It seems like some people at least, are already adapting their programs in ways that fit approaches like what you suggest, which one can certainly do o their platform. I would like to hear your opinion on their individual workouts too, however. I suspect that many of their individual workouts are either a bit too intense, have too many intervals, or maybe recommend rest between intervals at wattage that is a bit too high to make them efficient. Keep up the GREAT work!

As usual, more great information. I appreciate the info and as most of us go to hard on easy days. I'll continue to watch your channel and TR's- you both have good content. Thanks.

Well done. I always appreciate the science behind your arguments! You have validated my personal experience over 30 years of cycling. I learned a long time ago that too much intensity without adequate recovery leads to Sour Legs.

I reluctantly went into the traditional base plan despite the recommendation and it was way better than the SSB plans I did before. Definitely valid criticisms and I’m excited to see what TR does to improve it’s definitely helped me but the burnout aspect is real

I have been using TR for 4 years, had great success given I was new to structured training but I agree it feels like too much after a couple of months (base+build, mid and high volume). I always crashed and burn toward the end of build and sometimes decide to stop training until I get my motivation back. In terms of gain, those plans were great but after I used Dylan's 12+ hours plan recommendation (at most 2 high intensity, then the rest in Z2) I made even bigger gain and burnout went out of the door. My strategy is always to start with their plans and swap some of their workouts. Still, I credit them for most of my gains and getting me to be disciplined on the bike. Thanks for making this video, I had been meaning to ask about clarification on whether sweetspot qualifies as high intensity.

Great video. Big Kudos to your courage. Simply as objective as you can be. TR's podcast is indeed great, and this will certainly push them to review and improve their plans.

Dude, your videos are so good. Thanks for bringing clarity over such important and useful topics.

I agree 100%. As a trainerroad user since 2011 or so, I have always modified or made up my own plan by substituting in zone 1/2 workouts and only doing 2 hard workouts per week. This is especially critical when you factor in that most people are doing TR in the off season (winter) and so weight training also has to added in. Trying to do the MV or HV and lift heavy within the same week, week after week, is a recipe for self destruction. Knowing your limits and recovery ability is critical. Any vanilla plan which is made to fit 1000's of riders is not individualized, and therefore not specific to you. Also, TR really struggles to fit in older riders (60+ or so), which is an indication of the weaknesses in its structure which you alude to. Can't wait for the TR response next week! 😭

Well done Dylan. I'd subscribe to your channel twice if I could!

Love this video you actually site your sources when discussing your break downs

I’ve been following and watching your videos for a number of years. I’ve been a coached athlete for a couple of years (though only a mid pack finisher). Looking at taking on a 100 mile mtb race so started looking at training plans offered by a couple of different companies like trainerroad and wondered if you were going to do a video on the topic. Kudos to you for following the science. Glad to know I made a good choice to follow a polarised approach instead 👍

TR User: (31 years old, 65 kg) I Started with a 2.5 w/kg FTP and currently at 4 w/kg FTP in 2.5 years. For me, it has been great! I've obviously started with a Low Volume plan because I didn't know anything about "Structured Training". Since that, I have completed many times their Three Stages on Mid-Volume: Base, Building and Speciality, and everytime my FTP has increased. I am consistent but there is always a day that work comes up and I just simply take it as a Rest day. I had only used the High Volume plan once, 3 months before a Training camp on winter and did not felt BURNED at any time. I am a "Recreational" type of cyclist, who loves to ride and simply enjoy the freedom that a bike gaves you! I don't know your price as a Coach, but I am a happy customer with TR who also learns from your content. TR ain't bad at all, I even improved more than other friends who hired a Personal Coach but aren't that consistent or don't take care of their food, sleep and recovery weeks. Any plans on a review to "The Sufferfest"?

This confirms what I have experienced. Burned out while trying to stick strictly to TR plan.

Outstanding job with this video. thanks for the efforts

Thanks for covering TR. Like you, I listen to their podcasts and get something out of them most of the time but I have often wondered about the effort required to follow their training plans.

Nice job. I too listen to the TR podcast and have questioned their approach.

Looking forward to TR response to this. I believe their plans are designed more with "what training regiment people are more likely to stick to", which is also a valid reasoning. It would be interesting to see your take on Xert approach.

Thanks for the scientific approach, Dylan. I've used TR one winter and after a couple of weeks couldn't finish the workouts anymore, which I blamed on myself. Whilst training I also listened to the TR podcast and to me their ideas were sound. This made it even harder to question the program.

Excellent video! I'm a TR user and this video addresses many of my doubts and questions. After getting through a number of their training blocks, feeling totally wiped out, I have lately been assembling my own plan, using their large library of workouts. Thank you for your research.

New request: review Sufferfest!!!

I love the trainer road podcast. It took me a few listens to get onboard, I didn't really get it, but now it's almost like listening to friends go on and on about who is going to beat who. I love how Nate seems to think he knows more about peoples performance then they know themselves. Honestly I could do without the questions and just have a half hour of them trash talking.

Super useful vid. As a new rider and a TR user I can tell you that the burnout is real. Im definitely faster and fitter than when I started but I've had to cut my volume a lot so that I can be recovered for all the interval days. I also get days where I'm totally wiped out and feel like I'm coming down with a cold. I've been really dedicated to following the nutrition advice and the training plan but it still knocks me sideways.

Excellent presentation of your analysis, Dylan. Your methodical and research-based approach is incredibly helpful to us.

What I'm hearing is "the medium and high volume plans don't give you enough time to rest and recover." I'm going to keep chugging along on my low volume plan until the northeast thaws!

Excellent video, very balanced and respectful review. I am on the lookout for a new plan, post COVID illness and I think this has convinced me to look at one of your polarized plans.

Shots Fired! I love that you make videos pointing out the issues with other training plans, regardless of backlash. Especially after the Emily Betty video. Keep fighting the good fight and making great honest content.

Both Chris Froome and Dylan Johnson are not afraid to share their opinions! I think it's good, and I appreciate it.

I also enjoy the TR podcast a lot! I just wish they weren't so entrenched in the sweet spot methodology and offered more variety to their training protocols. I think they could benefit as a company.

My post ended up on the video lmao I actually really appreciate this vid because it finally puts to bed the time needed component which was what a lot of people said and I tended to believe them. Thanks Dylan!

Dude, HAT BACKWARDS DYLAN!!!!!! SO GOOD!!!! As long as hat backwards Dylan appears in your videos, I will NEVER unsubscribe. You make me laugh every video, ha ha, thanks for making my morning again.

There it is!!!!

Your videos are always a breath of fresh air in a space that many others over complicate. And my experience with Trainer Road? I tried it over one winter, followed a plan closely and entered the spring burnt out with dead legs. I wasn’t able to recover until the very end of the season.

Great video, thank you! Perfect timing as I was considering signing up. I'm now a confident believer in what I"m doing after research by watching your videos along with others and whatever else I can read. I'm riding 5 days/wk currently mostly endurance since mid/end of November and just recently added in 2 sweet spot sessions/wk. I"m not a racer nor do I plan on it, just want to be a strong cyclist.

Good Job Dylan on explaining your concern. well informative. so many ways to train and every one is different and every ones goals are different. keep up the good work

Just 4 minutes in, but that was exactly my thinking. I train between 10-18 hours a week and had a look at their high volumes base plan and was just like: "Yeah, right I will be burned out by February". I directly searched for a few minutes to find people who burned out doing it. I personally still do a lot of SweetSpot in the winter with around 3 sessions per week with quite long durations like 2x30min, but I have two rest days per week and use the weekends to do long endurance rides (if the weather allows it). This brings me up to a good level until I can start training outside. I just can't handle doing more VO2Max work for example on the traininer and that early in the year.

That took guts. Thank you.

Have been watching a few of your videos lately. This one convinced me to finally subscribe. Cheers!

Haha perfect combination of science and humor, as always cranking me up and educating at the same time

Thank you, very informative! Next review: Sufferfest training plans?

I’m 100% with you here Dylan. Well said and nice background shots 😍

A very fair and well reasoned video. I absolutely love the Trainerroad app, website, forum and their podcasts. I will continue to pay my subscription in appreciation of all these things. I really like Nate, Chad, Amber, John & Pete. But I have modified my training plan to reduce the number of high intensity days, mainly after watching a lot of Dylan's videos plus the fact I was struggling mentally with the incessant SS sessions. I now do 2 hard (threshold or VO2Max) workouts a week with 3 or 4 days of endurance riding in between to add volume. I'm feeling better for it and am making progress.

Great information DJ! Keep up the great work! Ride On!

Chad has said many times, even recently that folks generally can only sustain intensity for two or maybe three rides a week. He, however does not consider anything under threshold "intensity" and there you have the disagreement. High Volume - Three intensity, one endurance ride, and one sweet spot ride.

Hey Dylan, thanks for another excellent video - would you be able to do one discussing how best to structure training that incorporates 1 or 2 group rides per week? I presume many people have a similar dilemma of not knowing how best to incorporate high-intensity interval sessions into a training week, given that most group rides have some intensity, yet often not of the optimal duration/intensity to constitute a 'proper' interval session. However at the same time, these rides are also not easy enough overall to be considered optimal zone 2 endurance rides with no surges and corresponding HR spikes. Thanks!

I like the TR podcasts. Getting another opinion on their plans is always good and nothing to complain about. Helps me to get my own opinion.

Always enjoying your videos, Dylan!

I've personally have had amazing success with Trainerroad high volume sweet spot plans. I know everyone is different and has different life stresses but for me, I've never felt that the sweet spot high volume plan was too much for me. For other people, low or mid volume may work better. Everyone has to do what works for them. For me, it's Trainerroad high volume hands down!

Haha, thanks man. Was one of the ones asking for this. It does seem like there are too many intensity days in my TR plans. It has put me in a hole before.

Thanks for providing links to the research articles!

I’m a TR subscriber and fan. So glad you’ve approached this topic. You addressed my biggest questions about TR: high volume plans!!

Trainer Road: Go Too Hard on Your Easy Days, and Too Easy on Your Hard Days!™

YES YES YES, thank you!

Excellent video. Been training for decades as a cyclist, tried multiple approaches, plans including both Zwift & TR. Only since following a polarised 3 zone approach this last 6 months have I seen consistent, progressive improvements. Fully sold. Backed up here nicely by Dylan.

I like that you specified what percentages the polarized training model used.

Loved this! A few proper digs at a recent podcast. 👌 To be fair to TR, they do actually promote a polarised/pyramidal approach, they just don't say it's that; either they don't realise or don't want to admit it. 🤔 What am I getting at? Well, in most podcast episodes they advise people to do the low volume plans and then add zone 2 rides in on top of these (6 zone model). If you add a 1 hour zone 2 ride midweek, a short 45 min z1 ride on Friday plus a longer 3+ hour endurance ride on the weekend, then, when you look a TiZ, it's either pyramidal or polarised depending on which low volume plan you are doing. As for the 5 weeks on, 1 week off during base, anecdotally, this always puts me in a hole! Thanks again Dylan. Seemed a pretty balanced assessment if you ask me. 👍

when listening to the TR podcast i get the impression that most of their customers just train 4 hrs a week at all..... so it might be the right way to train if you really only have 4 hrs

I stumbled across you channel while doing a little research on cycling for beginners. You give alot of information to digest but it's good information. Only been riding for about a month, and I'm looking forward to cycling as a hobby and maybe do some training in order to eventually participate in an event or two. Thank you for your diligence.

Thanks Dylan for bringing in the science to support you, 👍 I haven't either found any study that support sweetspot over POL training.

This explains so much. I’ve not been able to be consistent the last 2x I’ve subscribed to them.

People are just scared that they won’t be able to perform at a certain race intensity when they spend 75% or more of their training time in zone 1 (from 3 Z models)

Thanks Dylan. I was hoping you would reply to the recent TR discussion. I am subscribed to TR but only low volume on your “2-3 times a week” advice. Thank you for your thoughtful, researched, measured and polite response.

Another great one. Thank you for all the information

One answer is to avoid being on a program altogether if the end game is deep fitness, not immediate race results. It's about being on a lifestyle, not a program.

TrainerRoad have announced they will be offering polarised plans. See their latest podcasts. With the amount of users they have it will be interesting if they ever release figures on planned polarised workouts vs completed. That will increase the ‘N’ number, allowing TR to determine the statistical value of its effectiveness for the Joe Public who sign up for it.

Awesome video and well backed up by your research. Great job.

Great job Dylan! For me keeping it simple works best. Some of these pay to train programs can b unnecessarily complicated. You have a great way of using science to make your points. The information becomes easy to understand and follow. Bad Okay Good and Great describes most training plans and coaches. Dylan you are one of the Great ones.

To be fair, Trainerroad does often say that the HV plan is too much for most athletes. They even say that MV is too much for most. They always advise starting with the LV plan first.

Don't worry, TR have announced that all their plans are polarised. Also, they've announced their first polarised plans.

Excellent as always.

Great video ! Thank you very much ! After watching, I have scraped my base plan in TR. Instead, I add 2 workouts of 1 hour 65-75% FTP, AND 1 workout with 7x4-minute intervals at 105% FTP with 2-minute recoveries after each. Ramp test every month. I am new at cycling, and I have to say, that I have to take it a bit more slowly than a sweet spot training cadence.

You forgot one SUPER important factor here: Branding. The entire TR 'brand' has been built on 'Time crunched training for middle age working parents racing club Crits on Thursday'. They will NEVER properly address or deploy a polarized plan as it goes against the last 5 years of podcast marketing and branding. I would personally argue, TR needs to be analyzed through the view of a marketing lens rather than a sport science perspective.

3:14 Was a bit of an eye opener 'I recognised wasn't going to be able to make 5 [weeks] without completely breaking down'. Cue big smiles all round. WTF guys, this is the program you sell!

Great video Dylan! I hope TR review their structured training plans and adapt them accordingly.

Great video. I’ve been a long time subscriber to TR. I’ve been training for a long time and typically do their mid volume during winter and switch to long volume once the spring hits and I can get outdoors. With that said I’ve had good success in using it for training and racing. I’ve done the sweet spot high volume plans both 1 and 2 and I can definitely agree that they were super tough. I was totally spent after going through ssb 1 and 2 high volume but I did it, saw some really good gains, did the rest week and moved forward in the plan without much issue. I realize though my personal situation probably affords that and for the masses that plan is tough. I hope they see the video and have a response but this was a great opener!