Eat your veggies and always pay the 1..

Guess you'll just have to give Joey a double dose of puns next week. Those are as important as veggies to keep him healthy and functioning.

For blue removal I love Pongify, Frogify, Rapid Hybridization, and Imprisoned in the Moon. I also would add Beast Within and Generous Gift as superb removal spells.

Hi guys, i dont know if you already have a video on that but would be great if you dedicate an episode just about playtesting, i se a lot of people having a lot of questions that could be answerd if they properly test the decks and having a gide on that would be awesome!

44:38 - I've used Reconnaissance in a few decks, and every single time it's been amazing. "I attack you with all of my soldiers." "I block three of them." "I pull those three blocked soldiers out of combat and untap them. You take two damage." I didn't even know you could untap them after they already did damage, that just makes it even better.

I used to run Reconnaissance in Alesha, Who Smiles At Death, so when I built Isshin, I knew I wanted it in there. It's one of those spells that people don't think about because at the time it was printed, it sucked monkey balls. You couldn't do the psuedo-vigilance thing, for one thing. By the time combat changed to make it as powerful as it now is, it had already been relegated to the dustbin of "limited fodder" in a set that had a lot more famous things.

I run Harmonize in every non-enchantress green deck for precisely the reason Dana mentions: while not as potentially explosive as R's Expertise or Return of Garruk's Mojo, Harmonize always nets you cards. Easily my favorite "veggies" card.

Joey's infectious laughter makes the dad jokes way, way better.

Navigation orb is a 5 mana colorless cultivate not a burnished hart or explosive vegetables, it only puts 1 of the lands on the battlefield

Beast Within, Song of the dryads, Lignify, Kenrith's Transformation are all excellent removal spells (even Berserk can work and have some interesting politics), but also green will almost always have access to more mana than any other color, so over costed colorless removal spells are far more feasible in green. I've never found removal to be a thing I struggle with when playing green. Scour from Existence, Brittle Effigy, even unstable obelisk, Karn Liberated or Ugin the Spirit dragon... Also green has deathtouch + one sided fight cards. Board wipes admittedly green does struggle a little more, but still cards like Ezuri's predation or Apex Altisaur often do plenty. I've never personally ran The Great Aurora, but could work in a pinch, but personally I usually just run boompile and nevinyrral's disk if I feel like I need board wipes in mono green (Sidenote: Boompile is super underrated). Finally, not having access to many board wipes in mono green is usually fine since as the monogreen player, you're going to be hurt the most by a board wipe anyways.

As you said, expensive cards are not veggies, but Pitiless Plunderer is the ramp version of Village Rites/Deadly Dispute

"Swords and Path are the best white removal spells ever printed," *Generous Gift has entered the chat*

Chandra's Ignition has so much utility. If your Commander has Deathtouch, you should just play it

I always play Night's Whisper, Chart a Course, etc. in decks where I can fit them, I love low mana draw 2-3 spells. I actually tend to prefer them over the big flashy effects, though it's nice to have a nice balanced mix of both

I love the dad jokes but part of me would love to see something different but equally special from Dana like Snapple facts. :)

My theory about why people don't complain about blue and black lack of ramp, outside rocks, is that both colors can catch up eventually, they have good draw power and good value strategies, they don't feel falling behind all game very often. I have a Feather deck and drawing so much card does feel like ramping at some point because you NEVER miss a land drop.

I think the other problem with reconnaissance is that newer players dont understand what it does. It's hard to know (I can untap after dealing damage) when reading that card unless you know the rules fairly well or someone has explained it to you

my greatest weakness in deck building is not running enough removal. i'm a pretty heavy combo player and most of my slots are devoted to the combo pieces, combo protection, and combo recursion. i'll slowly take out removal one card at a time until i realize that i've only got two left and then i'll say to myself whats even the point and take out the rest. it's a horrible habit of mine i need to break.

If Homeward Path wasn't like $15 I'd have one in literally every single deck. I don't care if it's 5 color. I want a Homeward Path

I will definitely say this is one of the best episodes that I’ve ever heard and I’m a long-time listener I am a big fan of using ““ veggies as EDH player and smoothing out decks.As a lifetime martial artist it’s the fundamentals that allow you to create and have those explosive moments. The only part I have a grievance is that the somatic moment of saying white isn’t artifact centric Is that white is looking for combat artifacts but that can be read in the intention of your statement regardless thank you for your work I appreciate it

In mono green, it isn't unreasonable to hit 12 mana. You could therefore cast Parallel Evolution and flashback it on the same turn, quadrupling your tokens. That's not a major benefit, but it is notable. Especially if you're running short on cards, need to block a huge trampler, need annihilator fodder or simply need to bait out a boardwipe or counterspell.

Can't wait for Joey to get back, BUT it's great to get more of Mr. Morgan. As someone who listens to CMDR Central I gladly hear Dana each week as a host. But Matt is really insightful and I loved getting his view on this topic

In white I’ve been getting work out of my “cut a deal” it does everything you guys say and by being friendly with it no one will ever think of countering. I like spending 3 mana for 3 or 4 cards in white.

A really important aspect (*the* most important, imho) of those small card draw spells is not missing your land drops. Missing land drops "early" (in more casual Commander, "early" can be your 5th or 6th land drop in a row) puts you really far behind, especially if you're not playing Green. Cards like Night's Whisper, Reckless Impulse or Welcoming Vampire can help you overcome that hurdle.

Last message I feel that in more of my experiences being a consultant that moves up and down the East Coast and sometimes California those vegetable cards are the cards that the players that know the game or more weary of having A relic of p or A lantern has changed entire games from being hyper competitive to manageable for people at the table

"You'd be hard pressed to argue white isn't fifth in card draw" I mean... That's the stated design intent? The colors are supposed to have weak points, not sure what the point of that statement was here. Also, I'm kind of exhausted of the sentiment that draw somehow ceases to count or counts for less if it's on a creature. Also-also, it's so funny to watch people hem and haw about if the draw white's been getting is good enough, and how Secret Rendezvous is such a controversial card, and meanwhile, with white already being my favorite color for years, I'm over here absolutely laughing it up and Secret Rendezvous is one of my favorite cards of all time.

I may have missed it but any land with cycling are veggies that I tend to see a lot of players gloss over for basics or something flashy. I’m not saying go crazy and run 3 of every color in your commander’s identity but throw in 1-2 just to have some flexibility. I can’t tell you how many times I have won by drawing into something I needed or by setting up with a tutor and then drawing it by cycling.

Commander draw should be recursive. That's all!

Tibalt's trickery is a worthy mention for red removal. It's real good. Also Smuggler Snare for white card draw

Weathered Wayfarer is not white ramp. It just helps make sure that you hit your landfalls.

The other thing that makes Beast Whisperer better is the creature type, just to add to the conversation about power creep.

No one can ever convince me that red card draw is better than white. There's not a single way to add cards to your hand and nothing feels worse than when the only card in your hand is a faithless looting or thrill of possibility.

When he said there was variant of second harvest I get interested for puting it on my Lonis clues deck and then I read Parallel Evolution only works with creature tokens :(

I think white's issue is more specifically card draw rather than ramp. Its really the 2nd best at tutoring lands into play albeit, green is so far in first it doesn't seem it, but what the other colors have to make up for that is card draw. Blue and black by far can just draw into their deck and even red(more so now) can at least loot/rummage/impulse through more cards to play/see. But white doesnt, it gets its 1 a turn and maybe 1 extra and thats a big maybe. So evetho the others have to rely on rocks they dig down more to see more lands than white.

So I think Tormod's crypt keeper is waaay slept on. 3/2 Vigilance for 3 mana is a good rate and can remove a problem graveyard. Plus most decks can recurs creatures from grave more easily than other cards.

Somebody mentioned Vona"s Hunger. 😲 Vona's Hunger is one of my favorite cards but my friends don't understand how useful it is. It's instant speed has saved me multiple times against them and they still don't understand how strong it is.

As someone who has an Yidris Enchantress/Cascade/Constellation deck… gotta say Apex devastator is honestly “devastating” in the deck. It can turn the tides so quickly

I added liquimetal torque to all of my green decks. Bane of progress+ turn your sun titan is ok by me.

Got excited and thought it was gonna be a VeggieWagon crossover

my favorite divination variant is of one mind from ikoria which is a divination that only costs 1 mana if you have a human and a non human

Having shiny rims on your car is all well and good, but you still have to gas it up. Ramp needs draw for a more well-rounded game flow.

I had a game where I chaos warped a mikeaus the unhallowed my opponent had 6 cards left in deck with 8 devotion and the warp pulled thoracle.

I think it comes down to the days when ETH for me was one deck to face them all and you have to be prepared for every situation. And having those land tricks those sorceries that remove all the level of interaction and being able to maintain your strategy while still being a social interactive just was and is ETH to me

"Daddy Dana" is iconic.

Not only did we miss Joey, we missed his challenge the stats.

How did you guys not mention Beast Within?

VERY surprised that War Room is a "Veggie" card, since I think it's fairly exciting overall, but I am playing a Boros Tempo deck so, that's prolly why.

You guys did a great job by yourselves. I must admit that without Joey I was afraid the dad jokes were gonna run rampant 😂 but it was just right!

Does tovolar trigger the transform to night If you Control a Wolf and 2 werewolf?

did you guys trashtalk my flumph? thats a petcard and vegie and more xD

Wish there were stats on your twitch games

I don't know about you but I dockside into ancient copper dragon on turn 3 then swing and got 14 treasures.

Can u make an upping avarage for chandra tribal or goro goro?

Without Joey you should have made an episode all about graveyard hate. But as a graveyard player myself, I'm glad you didn't.

39:35 ahhh, now I get it

Deep gnome terramancer vs deep gnome terramancer means that both players get all of their plains out the moment one is triggered.

Most people opinion on White is just wrong/ or don't understand deck building. 1. White is the second best color at ramp. 2. The best color at removal. 3. has some of the best draw cards in the game as long as you stay in the White themes.

It’s the grease

Sometimes my deck doesn't want any damn vegetables

Give Crook of Condemnation some love for graveyard hate!

Holy crap, terramancer was 20 bucks a year ago?! 😱

Reconnaissance reprint WHEN?!

Just take out a land it will be fiiiine

Green has land draws and land drops... Those are veggie cards

What's weird for me is that my playgroup does not discourage board wipes. Green mana ramp can only be partially done in non green by rocks. Armageddon and Winter Orb against green is what Vandalblast is to nongreen, and Vandalblast is very played. Armageddon is not nearly as huge of a blowout for us if there is no green at the table. Spot removal for artifacts (not ideal against rocks, but an option) is commonly ran, but strip mines can hit ramp players for almost that same effect.

This is literally the best ETH episode I think you’ve ever had in terms of gameplay very impressed thank you it very much speaks to my sentiments of how you play the game I’m in my feelings

Field of Ruin? Why would I want to pay three mana to ramp two of my opponents?

so what i learned here is to hit Dana with Primal order in any game i can... :p

In all seriousness (if it's not too personal), how old IS Joey (at least in early/mid/late-20s/30s/etc)? I figured Matt and Joey were around the same age (Matt being a little older than Joey but only by a couple of years), i.e. both in their early-30s, yet the amount of jokes aimed at Joey being young are too much to ignore now! Maybe Joey IS super young but just makes up for it with confidence beyond his years?!

I'm wondering: Do you guys have an episode that adresses the opposite of this? I feel like my deckbuilding drifts towards putting too many veggies and too few bombs into my decks.

it is so stinky easy to draw cards at this point in white I really dont get the hubbub anymore. like three years ago sure but white has clearly surpassed red in terms of actual card draw the impulsive stuff you have to build youre whole deck around I just dont get it I hope their done the color pie exists for a reason

Everyone is "downplaying" or overlooking Smuggler's Share, it's busted

Is there something like too much veggies in a deck?

How do you talk about white card draw and not even call attention to Esper Sentinel, one of the best card draw engines of any color printed in recent years. Also, impulse draw < actual card draw, so I'd say red is worse than white at card draw.

These guys naming all the casual cards as veggies

Instead of meat, I eat veggies and ....!!!

The two best white ramp spells for token decks are Path to Exile and Settle the Wreckage. Prove me wrong!

The fact nobody complains about blue relying on mana rocks is why I've seen the 'white needs ramp' line of complaint as completely dismissable. It has ramp. It has great ramp. It's just like 'card advantage' - white has wraths, which are amazing card advantage. People are correctly identifying a problem with white ("i don't like how this feels") and then incorrectly concocting a solution ("what if it was blue and green.")

Blue drawing cards mid-range "is kinda new".=FALSE, just plain NO

In the green draw segment you guys also missed life’s legacy. 2 mana and 1 beefy boy is a recipie for success.

wooooohhh, a third to 666! c:

Soul Shatter is one of the dirtiest edicts to date.

Homeward Path always annoys me. Destroy it!

Disagree with your consensus on white ramp. So many white cards say put a basic plains in your hard or on the battlefield tapped it's silly. The fact is, white has been the second best ramp color for decades...but second is still miles behind.

You guys are so wrong about white and its card draw. White is not a meme anymore.

Omg stop talking about black market. Stop putting that shit in your decks what the fuck are you all playing a different format than I am? Black Market ist *NOT* ramp. It is a 5 mana do-nothing card that has 2 modes printed on it. The actual card text reads as follows: "At the End of your drawphase if Black Market has 2-3 counters, you will get 0-3 black mana. Congratulations, you've timewalked yourself for what could've been a real turn. At the End of your drawphase, if Black Market has at least 4 counters on it, your opponents will destroy it. Don't even start planning out your next turn. By the way, you skipped your last already." It's just a terrible card that gives a negligible amount of mana until it wouldn't in which case it gets destroyed/exiled in 9999/10000 times. My fellow black players: Do not waste your mana, do not waste your turns on casting this entirely useless piece of garbage card. Just look at it from a ceiling to floor perspective: Ceiling: Spend 5 mana for BM, pass the turn, someone else boardwipes, get 20 mana in your turn (you have no board left) if you reach mainphase with it. Somewhat Ceiling: Spend 5 mana for BM , spend 4 mana for Damnation. Get 20 counters. Pass the turn. Get 20 mana if you reach your mainphase. Somewhat floor: Spend 5 mana for BM, pass, no creatures die or BM gets removed. 0 mana. Floor: Spend 5 mana for BM, in response cyclonic rift. You now have 0 Counters, no way to get counters, your hand is full and you have 5 mana less to repopulate your board. What do people want to do with all that mana? Sure, Torment of Hailfire and other x-spells. Anything else? Not really, your expensive creatures cost around 8-7 mana. You can have those instead of casting BM and a Boardwipe and hoping for it to table. Seriously. There is no fckn reason someone with 2 working braincells would play black market.