Basal Anchor Shock Load w/ 100 lb

Basal Anchor Shock Load w/ 100 lb - Holey Moley!

Рет қаралды 10,199

Жыл бұрын

This is a demonstration to show how much force is generated in a short fall on a basal anchor, when your rope is caught on a small branch above the main union. This really surprised me. Hopefully this gives you guys something to think about when setting up basal anchors.
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Пікірлер: 90

@isaacmartinez7435 Жыл бұрын

This is why I love your channel. Along with the other greats out there. You articulate concepts really well. I'm here about to be 37 and I started climbing only about 5 years ago. I've never used a base anchor since I haven't come across a tree where I needed it. This really gives me something to think about when I come across this situation. You guys are so valuable to us new climbers. I appreciate the service you provide to the industry. I pray for you safety brother.

@gabriellamm2776 10 ай бұрын

Don’t forget that with a basal anchor your puttin 2x the weight in a Union than drt

@timgrant1796 Жыл бұрын

Well done. The shock loads involved were accurately described for a variety of ropes and fall factors by Attaway & Weber back in 2002. I wish someone had picked up on their work, but it seemed to disappear after Attaway passed away. It's the short falls that crush, because all rope is relatively stiff over the first ten feet or so and arborists generally climb on thick static kernmantle. It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the end. Thanks.

@filipbelak6594 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for that test. It really helps to put things into perspective, as a new climber I often think the exact same thing "if the twig breaks the union is gonna catch me". I will be more cautious after this. Also, nice of you to provide numbers in metric system.

@spelunkerd Жыл бұрын

One of the things we did in mountain climbing school was to drop a couple of tires from an abandoned railroad tressle, and try to hold the fall with gloved hands on the rope around our waist. It was an unpleasant surprise how much force is involved. In climbing we sometimes top rope, where the rope is tied at the bottom and routed all the way to the top and then back down to the climber. That was a much easier shock load to manage because the rope was longer, stretch happens all along the rope, and there is almost no slack. Also there is some friction at the top. Your observation of 2X fall is spot on, it's the same risk that a lead climber who moves above his last protection accepts. I have similar scars from falls through the years. One other thing that is done is to use slings that partially tear away under intense force to help cushion and smooth out that abrupt shock load. Mountain climbing rope and slings that have taken a serious fall are immediately retired.

@total22cal Жыл бұрын

It's not so much that I didn't understand the concept of "I would fall twice that distance if it breaks" - I knew that and understood that fully - but what I didn't realise is how much force and degree of injury we are talking about in those situations. Even when we calculate exactly on paper how much force we would experience by number, I still don't think I would understand how much it will hurt. That is ofcourse untill I feel the pain my self and learn it the hard way, or I see someone I trust knowing what they are talking about saying "this is the scar, and it hurt like hell" The following video made was very much needed and it was great in terms of telling how much it hurt, rather more than telling the numbers. Great video. Thank you.

@user-gq2vn1xj2r Жыл бұрын

Thank you. Your dedication to safety for all of us means a lot.

@havespurswillclimb Жыл бұрын

Enjoyed the video. Excellent demonstration on that particular basil anchor setup. Often when setting rope from the ground you wind up hanging over a small weak branch above actual target union. So, this demo should make all aware of the danger in trusting the weak rope placement....even though a good crotch is just below the weak branch. Appreciate you taking the time to set this demo up. Thanks.

@jefferyturner1920 Жыл бұрын

Most videos show everything going smoothly but I really like videos like this that educate us on things that could go wrong. Excellent video. Thank you.

@johnhass1084 Жыл бұрын

Wow, great presentation

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

Appreciate it - Patrick

@CarmenDeMatteo Жыл бұрын

Thanks for all of your information and hard work giving back to the industry .

@bobray2583 Жыл бұрын

Imagine how much force it generates when you shock load a rig... yeesh. Great video man. Ty

@samuelscorso4820 Жыл бұрын

Great illustration of the forces involved. Damn smooth work at the end too, despite the accident preceding.

@dankotos61 Жыл бұрын

Good job I got you on the first video. I also have a pair of binoculars I used to inspect my branches sometimes

@samuelluria4744 Жыл бұрын

Smart man!

@seancoyle6463 Жыл бұрын

I still climb mostly double rope but the concept still applies. I’ve shared this and your first post about it with the guys at work. Thanks man

@donb8447 Жыл бұрын

I love the videos...and received my copy of "The Fundamentals of Tree work" yesterday! I literally can't put it down!! Thank you for all you do!

@nate2838 Жыл бұрын

Another element to keep in mind is what type of rope you are using. Static line doesn't stretch as much as 16 strand standard climbing line, therefore it doesn't reduce the impact as much. So if your used to climbing on 16 strand, keep that difference in mind when you switch to static line for better efficiency / less effort when going up the rope. I mention this because I was compaing a few experiences with short falls i've had, and was wondering why this was way more violent than I experienced. And the amount of rope in the system makes a difference. More rope = more stretch, which reduces the impact some. Great topic and reminder.

@mattwood9981 Жыл бұрын

Great example Patrick, thanks for putting that together.

@donmckenzie4329 Жыл бұрын

Thank you for this vid. I shared this video with the guys I work with. Really good for demonstrating why 10% is a general rule of thumb for negative rigging as well as basil anchors.

@cotontop3 Жыл бұрын

I did that very thing about 2 years ago- rope went over a small sucker, I didn't think much about it. I took about a step up the rope from the ground and the sucker let go. I wasn't more than a foot off the ground and ended up flat on my back and thought I had broke my wrist. In my mind at the time, I was like, if the rope drops in the crotch, no biggie, its just right above it but as I figured out the hard way, that was not the case.

@LesterBarrett Жыл бұрын

The measurement of the length of the rope, which is at an angle, is greater than the vertical distance between the two tie-in points. That is why you are getting the extra two inches. Also, the stretch for about 20 inches of fall would be a couple of percent of the distance, depending on the stretch of the rope. As is often said, a short fall can be much more severe than a longer fall in rock climbing because those ropes have a greater stretch factor, and because it works better over a longer distance. So for example at a 2 percent stretch, if you fall one meter, the rope will provide 2 cm of stretch to absorb your shock. It might as well be a steel cable at that amount.

@proxy7863 Жыл бұрын

Great video Pat, food for thought for everyone. Shows why ropes have to be so strong.

@br-dj2ti Жыл бұрын

It makes a hundred percent sense thank you so much for this video Patrick definitely big help

@ianbarnett6027 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video. Every climber should watch this. I did not realize this very real potential hazard. Thank you.

@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Жыл бұрын

Excellent video. Thank you.

@justinrutan1795 Жыл бұрын

Great heads up, I knew it would be bad but didn’t realize how bad, thanks for sharing.

@FunDadAdventures Жыл бұрын

Wow, I never imagined. Thanks man!

@calebbell952 Жыл бұрын

Great video! Never thought of this happening to this extent.

@johndurant8687 Жыл бұрын

Good stuff here Patrick! Thanks alot Brother!

@gnarmarmilla Жыл бұрын

Thanks, brother. Much appreciated

@In-The-Trees Жыл бұрын

Wow, great video and great points! I can honestly say it was just from the union to the twig and am guilty of just saying "eh, good enough" and climbing on it. That 880 lb shock load blew my mind. Thanks for sharing!

@jamesblack687 Жыл бұрын

Wow! I don’t even think twice about it if I can’t break it from the ground, I just claimed up with no worries. Not now, I’ll simply reset my rope, pain sucks. Thank you 🙏

@brenthauxwell8435 Жыл бұрын

Thanks providing an answer to a concern. I’ve had multiple times in the tree.

@metaspencer Жыл бұрын

I was hoping we'd see that hemp climbing line from 1812 again :) Joking aside, great to see you get into the shock loading force. Super interesting

@WaynePolcin Жыл бұрын

Bogos vivi tada! Well done, Patrick!

@waynecostanza2280 Жыл бұрын

Just awesome.

@LEPPER500 Жыл бұрын

Jesus H .. thank you for the video and keeping climbers safe. This content is life saving. Thank you

@BigBlackTruckDave Жыл бұрын

Ouch. Thanks for the warning.

@mrpittdec28 Жыл бұрын

Thanks. Safety #1

@plant.more.trees. 11 ай бұрын

Regarding little twigs,sometimes we double load it and if it doesn’t brake, we feel it will hold us, but in reality sometimes we weaken them enough to snap the twig half way through the climb. I always hate urban redwoods where you can’t see the crouch or branches you are going over…. Thanks for the video!

@kodylloyd5495 Жыл бұрын

Double plus stretch of rope plus friction device. WOW Patrick! Be cautious on a regular. Glad you are ok 👍

@joshpomponio2993 Жыл бұрын

That is a great topic an when you do test on your own like that it’s brutally honest it’s a big difference being tied in srt at top of tree than at base just in rope stretch not even in redirect drt use it every chance I get less travel each step up but way less dynamic on rope stretch thanks brother 👊

@dgoodman1484 Жыл бұрын

Good video. This doesn’t negate your message at all but as any rock climber will tell you the more rope you have out, the less the force because of rope elongation. Even static rope has some but why I also occasionally use dynamic rope for certain situations where a higher fall factor is a possibility. We get away with using static (ish) ropes because basically we are top roped in and shouldn’t see a fall factor greater than 1 and rarely even that but as we know, we definitely can under the right circumstances and having little rope in the system and static rope at that, makes it especially bad. 👍🏼👍🏼

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

Yes for sure. This wasn't a very practical example, there was only a tiny amount of rope in the system. Makes you think though

@dgoodman1484 Жыл бұрын

It was a great example 👍🏼

@nate2838 Жыл бұрын

@@TreeMuggs_PatrickM And that is exactly what the goal of your video, get people thinking and paying attention. Well done :)

@robbob_the_climber Жыл бұрын

👍well done 👍👍👍😎😎😎

@alotl1kevegas860 Жыл бұрын

Holy crap, I was thinking maybe a x3 factor in force. I was not expecting that much, from such a short fall!

@danmaynard856 Жыл бұрын

All canopy vs basal anchor discussions I've seen are focused on the static anchor point load from the 2:1 effect but ignore the decrease in shock from the extra rope length. Would be really interesting to see exactly the same balls drop onto a canopy anchor, and a basal anchor with 40 feet of rope in the system. Stick my neck out but the same fall could give 400lbs on a canopy anchor and 300lbs on basal anchor - ie the basal anchor is lower load and safer.

@dooletube Жыл бұрын

You should really make a collab with HowNOT2. You could come up with all the scenarios arborists could face, and he got all the gadgets to test them.

@zachsites906 Жыл бұрын

I can’t think of a better way to Illustrate the physics behind shock loads. For anyone who doesn’t believe how these loads are exponentially multiplied, this video contains the proof.

@mvblitzyo Жыл бұрын

Beautiful example and excellent explanation of what could and does happen , when we as climbers. make a simple mistake when we miscalculate where we are tied in ..

@hosocat1410 Жыл бұрын

😳😳😳 eye opener!!! I was guessing maybe 250 pounds!!!

@michaelguerin56 Жыл бұрын

Good video. I am a carpenter but have done some tree work with a friend who is a (now retired) arborist. It is highly tempting to accept a poor line position (as demonstrated in this video) instead of throwing again or simply starting lower and working your way up the tree. Our heaviest work involved the felling of nuisance pinus radiata (Monterey pine) trees that had been planted decades before, at the top of a steep slope, above a street of houses. If the Big Shot could not get the rope into a good i.e., safe location, one of us would put on the spikes and climb the tree, using double lanyards for safety; then set the pull and safety ropes. This was all DDRT climbing and the pull rope would be run direct or via a pulley block to his Landcruiser. The safety rope would be run through a bollard, off an adjacent tree. All the trees came down safely, exactly as planned. The property owner decided to buck the logs himself, without any safety ropes to hold the wood on the slope. He put a piece of pine through the ranchslider on his house whilst bucking the first log and broke his leg!

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

Crazy! Thanks for sharing

@samuelluria4744 Жыл бұрын

Tree work IS Carpentry.....it's just the earliest phase of Carpentry.....🤣🤣

@michaelguerin56 Жыл бұрын

@@samuelluria4744 True. A bodger works with green wood, using saws, chisels, rasps, a pole lathe and some gouges. The traditional British pub skittles are made from green wood by bodgers, using a pole lathe and gouges. You can get a licence in Britain to work a stretch of woodland and even build a temporary house. Coppicing provides a steady supply of timber. Offcuts can be turned into charcoal for commercial sale or simply burned in the house stove. Traditional laths for restoration of plaster walls and ceilings in grand houses are also created by hand. I have seen a BBC?/ITV? commissioned video where the laths were being split under a timber-framed, steel-roofed shelter on a cold wet winter day. Fun, not!

@Bythirteen Жыл бұрын

gravity can be a bitch. good demonstration!

@joeshmo5399 Жыл бұрын

What climbing system were you using when it happened to you? Is it designed to slide when this happens? My Petzl ID is supposed to slide during a 6KN shock load.

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

Wrench and hitch cord

@ShredPilgrim Жыл бұрын

Is that an old hemp rope?

@stuby2014 Жыл бұрын

If you put load cell on the basal anchor it self wouldn't it be twice the impact?

@jeromelouis6339 Жыл бұрын

Now I'm curious how much of that 800 lbs is transferred onto your body vs how much goes into your gear/rope/tie in. And in turn what type of injuries it could do.

@veteransowhat5669 Жыл бұрын

Have you ever rode a spre?

@shdj1105 Жыл бұрын

Great video. I would like to add, that it would be more accurate if you actually had the rope over a decent sized limb and put the load cell on the kettlebell end. This would simulate the forces much more accurately, as I'm sure there will be a bit of friction over the branch that would slow down/reduce the shock load. Let me know your thoughts, cheers. p.s. I do not intend on undermining your argument that there is great force in this situation, I am just curious to know what the results would be in a more realistic scenario.

@shdj1105 Жыл бұрын

Almost forgot! As others have commented, it would also be more accurate if you could do this test with a longer length of rope.

@batmantiss Жыл бұрын

Sobering

@JWG061 Жыл бұрын

Curious what the shock load is on the climbers end

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

I will find out

@alotl1kevegas860 Жыл бұрын

I'm also curious about this. I wonder what it will be? Half of the shock load that was on the anchor?

@nate2838 Жыл бұрын

@@alotl1kevegas860 Should be about that I would think, though maybe slightly less due to friction on the carabiner.

@zaccheus Жыл бұрын

Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I can clearly see the principles you are describing in action. I think there some important things to observe when considering the difference between this demonstration in a controlled environment and a potential real world scenario. Two of them mainly being more rope in the system and the friction in the union that the rope falls into. I made a video trying to replicate something like what you did here, but my execution was not as clean. Maybe you can try to improve on it with the things you have to come. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qZiflqh1nqfLkYE.html The relative material is toward the end of the video. Please excuse my foolish mistake of using human weight to test with 😅

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

Great video Zacc, I've been planning on doing a basal anchor test with a tree crotch like that for a while, very cool!

@zaccheus Жыл бұрын

@@TreeMuggs_PatrickM I will certainly look forward to seeing what you come up with!

@Psy6o Жыл бұрын

Even more I had a limb break 4 foot above the crotch I was 20 feet up it broke I stopped 5 feet off the ground

@Psy6o Жыл бұрын

I had a smooth stop just scared the hell out of me

@br-dj2ti Жыл бұрын

So I'm about 206 lb so if that happened to me and I was in a tree that would mean I would almost put 1,600 pounds of force am I understanding that right great explanation though I never thought about

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Жыл бұрын

Potentially yes

@philipperenaud4273 Жыл бұрын

Great work again pat. Your videos are always so insightful. It baffles me that people climb and are not explained these principles before they leave the ground?? It was the case with me my first mentor just showed me how to tie my rope system and sent me up o had to figure a lot of this by myself over the years. .

@br-dj2ti Жыл бұрын

@@philipperenaud4273 I mean obviously Pat has been climbing for many many many years and he's just making this video now about the basil I'm thinking he might have just found out about this concept maybe recently maybe a year or two ago do you know what I'm saying buddy so everybody's not as perfect as you are you know what I mean but this is how we all learn I've been climbing for 13 years I never thought about it dropping that much but these videos help us and teach us so since you know so much why don't you start making videos teaching other that would be great God bless

@br-dj2ti Жыл бұрын

@@philipperenaud4273 and I was taught just show me how to set a rope and start doing it simple as that I was pretty much thrown into it I taught myself for the years I never had a mentor by my side whenever I learned a lot be honest from KZfaq by know it sounds crazy I learned a lot through trial-and-error and just learn it over time that's just me I wish I would have had a mentor like Patrick or reg Coates somebody like with me for the first year that would have made a world of difference for me

@philipperenaud4273 Жыл бұрын

@@br-dj2ti hey first off I want to apologise I did not mean to male my comment a reply to yours. I was in no way trying to target you with my comment. The tree care industry has very little people who are properly trained the figure of people who follow proper training is at around 5% so you are not alone. Most mentors trainers in this industry are very poor teachers and the nature of the business is very poor at it as we focus on productivity. Therefore people are made to get up into a tree and make some money. The principal illustrated in this video should be basic understanding of this climbing system. But it's not discussed and for many it is not intuitive. Which is normal. We need to stop sending green thumbs into trees without explaining principles and functionalities of things. I teach at a college in Alberta and we have a comprehensive training program that focuses on these points vs developing climbing skills. There is no way I can get them to become solid productive climbers in a 45H class. I make sure they understand the functionality drawbacks and physics principles. This way they have a better sense of when these are applicable in different situations vs just being able to do it. I wish I had a longer program but we are an introductory 5 course program that does not permit me to do more. Maybe one day we will be recognized as a trade and have a more comprehensive program. ??

@eclipsearchery9387 Жыл бұрын

If somebody asks 'how's it that possible'.....well umm it really isn't that complicated :) If you don't get it....I'd recommend doing something else :0

@taxustreeservice166 Жыл бұрын

There are more physics involved here that make this test and analysis nearly worthless. -short section of rope, no stretch to absorb shock -carabiner is smooth and tree limbs are not. You created a mechanical advantage of probably 1.5:1 considering the friction of the carabiner. Tree limbs have much more friction and thus reduce MA factors. (If you don’t understand theoretical vs actual MA this paragraph is worthless to you). Repeat the test and run the rope over a suspended limb that is rigged to your load cell. This alone would reduce the reading on the load cell. Change bark types from smooth cherry to rough oak to establish a frictional coefficient spectrum. -You discussed the reading of the load cell and did not explain that the forces felt at the load was 1/2 of the load cell reading. The other half of the load was on the other side of the rope tied off. I think many people watching the video will assume the climber will experience a little over 8 times their weight. A conveniently 225lbs person would then experience 8kn. There are papers published in ITRS (international technical rescue symposium) that show this level of force on the human body in a class 2 harness begins to become fatal. I don’t think you showed fatal forces, but you unknowingly implied it. -As a final note. industries. Nobody in the world encounters many unpredictable rigging problems as an arborist.

@nate2838 Жыл бұрын

As long as it get people to pay attention and think things through, then I wouldn't call the video worthless, I would say it is inaccurate. The main idea and principals apply, its simply that they wouldn't be as bad as shown here.

@veteransowhat5669 Жыл бұрын

I am not a know it all but When I top I put my rigging system "What ever system I use as a false crotch," above the closest branch or nub so the system doesn't slide down or off. That's the reality of the work, again it's a joke why didn't they them cover you from that. Your paying them thousands and hundreds of dollars ?