EEVblog 1521 - Common Mode Rejection Explained & Measured (CMRR)

Рет қаралды 47,254

Күн бұрын

What is Common Mode Rejection Ratio (CMRR) and how to measure it on a high voltage differential probe or differential amplifier. Using the new Rohde & Schwarz MXO4 oscilloscope.
www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/prod...
Extended 30min version: • EEVblog 1521 - CMRR Fu...
Differential Probe How It Works: • EEVblog #932 - How Doe...
High Voltage Probe reverse engineering: • EEVblog 1415 - Reverse...
Oscilloscope Standard Deviation noise measurement: • EEVblog #1223 - Oscill...
Use coupon code ProbeyMcprobeFace for 15% of the HVP70 differential probe:
www.eevblog.com/product/hvp70/
Forum: www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/ee...
00:00 - What is CMRR?
01:53 - Why twist the wires?
03:26 - Typical CMRR figures
04:51 - How to measure CMRR - The Setup
08:54 - Remote R&S Oscilloscope desktop view & settings
11:22 - Output to input voltage ratio
11:58 - Beware of DC offset
13:36 - Does the 20MHz CMRR measaurement match?
14:02 - Input referred measurement
15:02 - Compensating for the gain
16:29 - Automated Frequency Response Analysis
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#ElectronicsCreators #CMRR #Tutorial

Пікірлер: 54

@jassimjaved3309 Жыл бұрын

Thank you Dave for educating us!

@electronics.unmessed Жыл бұрын

👍Wow, pretty advanced features that you are explaining here! Many thanks.

@dardosordi Жыл бұрын

This is really great stuff Dave! I loved every bit of it, it's well polished.

@TheDefpom Жыл бұрын

Part of the common mode amplification of the probe when connected together @8:00 could also be due to the connection point used, if the noise/source frequency is high enough the connections will act like a transmission line and there could be a phase difference over the length between the connections being side by side and not stacked at the same point, that phase difference could produce an effective shift for the differential probe.

@IanScottJohnston Жыл бұрын

Very nice explanation Dave, enjoyed this one very much.

@qzorn4440 Жыл бұрын

I love these kind of videos. They make learn and relearn things I have dealt with for some time. 😎 Thanks and happy 2023 new year. 🥳

@KeritechElectronics Жыл бұрын

1kV RMS max, nice thing to measure the signal across the vacuum tube amp's output transformer primary winding. Cool way of demonstrating the common mode interference.

@serggorod1423 Жыл бұрын

Очень в тему! Just in time!

@cowshittt Жыл бұрын

I wouldn't call it "phase reversal", that kind of implies change of impedance response (capacitive to inductive). It is just a phase wrap, since the screen is limited to +- 180 degree.

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

Yeah, poor choice of phrase.

@nthumara6288 6 ай бұрын

thank youuu sir it is very educative

@amrishhirani6096 Жыл бұрын

Merry Christmas

@erin19030 Жыл бұрын

One-of my first projects in electronics as a design tech was to build a common mode amplifier. For the life of I had no idea what there was to achieve expect build an amplifier that had a gain of 1 or less. The cathode follower ! I used an RCA low noise high frequency 6DS4.

@AppleTheBandit Жыл бұрын

Dave, you should make a note that you’re measuring CMRR from input to output (the smaller, the better), while the formulas you show and what you describe display CMRR as the ratio of differential gain to common mode gain (the larger, the better). I can see an astute viewer being confused. Otherwise, great video.

@userPrehistoricman Жыл бұрын

The former, in my opinion, shouldn't be called CMRR at all. It's common mode gain.

@AppleTheBandit Жыл бұрын

@@userPrehistoricman I agree!

@R2AUK Жыл бұрын

👍 🔥

@Likeaudio Жыл бұрын

Can you do balanced audio with these?

@optroncordian7863 Жыл бұрын

For me, a real test is to solder both inputs together on the board and then measure. Now the output can result from the difference in length and position in the twisted pair of the probe wires. However, it is not worth the effort considering the very high rejection ratio even without that.

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

Yes, that's a the difference between a system measurment (with probes and test fixtures etc) and a raw product circuit measurement. In this case with attached leads you can argue the leads must be included in the spec.

@sbelectronicaindustrial6652 Жыл бұрын

👍👍👍👍👍👏👏👏👏👏

@ovalwingnut Жыл бұрын

Did I win the scope? I guessed 42 Send to Long Beach, CA. USA, 3rd house on the right. THANK YOU!

@GoBO207 Жыл бұрын

I know this doesn't make sense, but I actually prefer looking at the scope from the cameras perspective rather than the screen capture. Wouldn't be the same for a smaller scope, but for this one...

@SeanBZA Жыл бұрын

Wanted to buy one, but country is not available off the online store........

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

DHL and extreme region price differences mean I can't sell into every country any more :-(

@NeverTalkToCops1 Жыл бұрын

Today, Daiyve demonstrates a set up where the probe costs LESS than the oscilloscope! Just grab that R & S scope for $23,632.

@sc0or Жыл бұрын

Why 23? Their web side says only 8. UPD Ah!.. I see now how their marketing department makes a salary. For me that looks stpd. Engineers need three separate models instead of three “upgrades”. Because certain things are better than a marketing bs.

@ales_xy Жыл бұрын

How is the price of the scope or probe related to the subject? This video is about principles. You don't need this particular scope to measure CMRR.

@sc0or Жыл бұрын

@@ales_xy Because this scope was few times advertised during this vid )

@userPrehistoricman Жыл бұрын

Don't probes usually cost less than the scope?

@den2k885 Жыл бұрын

Too late to ask Santa this gorgeous oscilloscope

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

Next year.

@joopterwijn Жыл бұрын

Guess you need to put the whole setup in a faraday cage to reject as much noise as possible

@guillep2k Жыл бұрын

Why Ch1 changed from 1.75V to 1.80V when changing frequencies? The attenuation in the circuit should be linear, right?

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

Slight non-linearity in wavegen vs freq, plus quantisation error.

@ZergZfTw Жыл бұрын

Wouldn't a VNA be a better choice to test CMRR over a frequency sweep? Something like the Bode 100 or similar.

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

Sure, but most people don't have one. And in the case of the Bode 100 it only has a 1Vrms max output which is kinda limiting.

@SeanBZA Жыл бұрын

@@EEVblog CMMR at 50Hz and around there would be easy, using your isolation transformer to provide a 400VAC CMMR source, so the error is at a higher level. Isolation transformer so that you get filtering of the more common noise that exists on the mains waveform these days, though a ferroresonant transformer does do a much better filtering job, though at the expense of having a lot of third harmonic noise, simply due to the non linear attenuation with output voltage as it does it's regulation.

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

@@SeanBZA Yes, it's simply a matter of a higher voltage source, however you want to do that source.

@MrSnoots Жыл бұрын

I never got a satisfying answer to what "common mode" noise was. I always saw CM chokes and wondered why they were needed. My understanding is common mode is simply a signal that it applies to all input lines (without prejudice). Further, since lengths of wire are effectively antennas, they can pick up high frequency interference which a choke will filter out due to the magnetic flux, which differential signals will pass through due to the topology of the choke and its windings. This video seems to confirm my understanding. Is there any additional nuance that I'm missing?

@EEVblog Жыл бұрын

Have you watched my common mode noise video?

@reicehamel1829 10 ай бұрын

Common mode rejection is the main purpose of a differential input its original model was a transformer not an op amp/differential input. A transformer used in signal processing like audio will have a balanced input and it will only transfer the difference in the input. since it will only transfer the difference any radiation or noise imposed on both inputs simultaneously will be rejected. This provides a form of noise cancellation and makes for a low noise clean input signal regardless of shielding or other means of RF /noise rejection.

@ghlscitel6714 Жыл бұрын

A transformer can be used as differential probe. Did you ever measure the CMRR of e.g. an Ethernet transformer? Citation: "All the grounds of the inputs are common" That is not completely true. It may only be true if you have no ground loops.

@messageobliquespe100 Жыл бұрын

I’m sorry - I’m just gonna say this subject is hocus Pocus - as well as that gadget measuring it -& that fancy microwave with a funny picture on it. Hocus Pocus.