Egregores, Mobs and Demons | with Jordan Hall & John Vervaeke

Рет қаралды 43,626

2 жыл бұрын

In this conversation with Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke we discuss the meaning and implications of "egregores" as described by the recent two articles on the Symbolic World Blog by Daniel Townhead and Kenneth Florence as well as in the book "Meditations on the Tarot" by Valentin Tomberg. The question of egregores is part of our ongoing discussion about higher beings, collective intelligence, distributed cognition and principalities.
We also discuss our current world, our language as a secular culture, what a solution to the meaning crisis will look like and artificial intelligence.
- The Symbolic World vs Egregores, Part 1 by Daniel Townhead and Kenneth Florence: thesymbolicworld.com/articles...
- The Symbolic World vs Egregores, Part 2 by Daniel Townhead and Kenneth Florence: thesymbolicworld.com/articles...
==============================
Timestamps
00:00:02 - Coming up next
00:01:15 - Intro music
00:01:40 - Jordan's terminology
00:03:08 - Background for this discussion
00:04:11 - Where Jordan is coming from
00:05:25 - Where John is coming from
00:06:24 - "Egregore" & bottom-up/top-down
00:08:21 - Again, where Jordan is coming from
00:09:01 - "Headless" beings
00:13:27 - Self-destructive/parasitic structures
00:19:25 - Demons in iconography
00:20:46 - Decomposition at the level of the mob
00:25:26 - The fringe of hyper-beings
00:28:38 - A bureaucracy that's too strong
00:31:58 - The demonic hierarchy
00:37:50 - What is evil?
00:39:22 - Selling your soul
00:42:21 - A virus
00:45:48 - We can see these patterns now
00:49:18 - We’ve lost our language around these beings
00:51:29 - Zombie Christianity
00:54:24 - How long have we been here?
00:58:50 - What can we do?
01:14:26 - Being in relationship with what is real
01:33:56 - Artificial intelligence
01:40:31 - Prayer
==============================
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My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
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Пікірлер: 437

@johnvervaeke 2 жыл бұрын

I realize I have made a mistake. I thought the word being used was aggregore which is an entity emerging out of aggregation. The word being used has an etymology form awakening. However my point still holds as it is generated in a purely bottom up fashion. I apologize for my mistake. Integrated entities vs aggregation was something I have studied a lot and so, while that literature is completely relevant, I was mistaken about the term being used. I apologize.

@daneracamosa 2 жыл бұрын

Your intent seemed clear when used in the conversation... an amazing conversation thank you for sharing.

@gwan_git 2 жыл бұрын

You are forgiven

@andrewternet8370 2 жыл бұрын

Casually uses the wrong term while maintaining completely coherent Edit: Rewatching this, egregore seems to refer to distributed cognition in general, where the sum is greater than its parts (ie a hyper-agent). Aggregore seems to refer to "headless" distributed cognition.

@IsoMorphix 2 жыл бұрын

It's seems like a super appropriate confusion though. An egregore shows up in a aggregation of wills right?

@B_Ruphe 2 жыл бұрын

Such misapprehension is one of the unfortunate consequences of the America (US) raising of the short-a into the short-e (near-merging of these two phonemes).

@justinjohnson6481 Жыл бұрын

I’m a plumber trying my very best to follow along with this. Watched the whole thing and didn’t discern nearly half the information here. I’ll rewatch it until it makes sense. Thank the three of you greatly for having this discussion and sharing it with all of us.

@Heitorsexy 2 жыл бұрын

Right in the edge of "hey I understand what they're saying" and "I think this is a dream and my mind mashed up words that seem to make sense sometimes"

@dog-headedman2634 2 жыл бұрын

perfectly said

@olgakarpushina492 2 жыл бұрын

You're at the border between the levels. Just hold on for a while.

@charliecampbell6851 2 жыл бұрын

@@olgakarpushina492 yes, this. Hold on for a while. The skill to listen to these things catches on eventually.

@xjmg007 2 жыл бұрын

@@charliecampbell6851 this is exactly how felt when reading Nietzsche. I felt lost and had to repeat portions multiple times. Eventually things began to snap together like learning a language. I think the reason is that most of our everyday conversations and vocabulary are simply not on these levels. It's a skill you have to push through to attain. It's the reason I appriciate Jonathan so much. He is a bridge and the biblical symbolism is the Rosetta Stone. With that said I think Jordan and John could benefit themselves and the audience if they made the ideas they want to express more attainable to people not falling off the right end of the bell curve.

@charliecampbell6851 2 жыл бұрын

@@xjmg007 haha yeah, but that's also just the language they've learned for it. Pageau talks in symbols, which are ways of condensing highly complex things into simpler things, so his language is naturally going to be more understandable at first. I was multitasking listening to this and got lost a few times in Jordan/John's responses, but I've also listened to vastly more Jonathan than I have either of them - I've never listened to Jordan before. As academics (I assume Jordan is somewhat academic), the path they took to get here is quite complex, so it's natural that their language involves a lot of fancy stuff.

@joshualovelace3375 2 жыл бұрын

59:35 During the Kairos of Middle Earth: “I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

@brendonlake1522 2 жыл бұрын

Probably the most insightful discussion of this topic I've heard because it's not secularized but recognizes the spiritual.

@RodrigoMera 2 жыл бұрын

Hard to follow yet it gave me flashes of insight... I feel this stuff is a top level academic discussion. Good to have you here on yt.

@criss5405 2 жыл бұрын

The same here

@nayrtnartsipacify 2 жыл бұрын

its because they said alot of nothing. I understand the terms they used very well. They just made word salad with the terms.

@nasimagdam2723 2 жыл бұрын

it sounds like they are trying to understand emergent properties as they relate to spirituality but they aren't smart enough describe it properly.

@iananderson8288 2 жыл бұрын

I am thankful that it NOT academic

@lloyds7828 Жыл бұрын

@@nasimagdam2723 its a subject. understood or not

@PaulVanderKlay 2 жыл бұрын

I like the new Jordan Hall beard!

@SteveBedford 2 жыл бұрын

Game recognizes game

@TheDonovanMcCormick 2 жыл бұрын

Every time you two do a video I’m like, man I want to watch this, but my brain is too tired. Ten minutes in, every time, it’s at full attention eating whatever is on the menu. Y’all do another one with Paul too, he’s the best moderator for thoughts and conversations to blossom.

@justadog-headedman6727 2 жыл бұрын

Sorry for the double comment, but I want to express that I can relate to John`s struggle, when he said that he wanted Plato for instance, to have a place. I say this because I also struggled with trying to find a place to Sages from Eastern religions, considering that that kind of response that sometimes one sees "everyone who is not a Christian is worshipping the Devil", just does not make sense for me, because I was basically carried to Christianity by these Eastern Sages. The way I made sense of it is through the notion of the narthex in Orthodox churches, which is an intermediate place in traditionally designed churches between the world and the nave, where worship takes place. In the narthex you would have figures such as the Greek philosophers for example. The way I view it is that the proper way to relate to a figure such as the Buddha or Plato is through the idea of the narthex, this intermediate space between the world and the place of worship.

@gordonstewart8258 2 жыл бұрын

Good point. We are Orthodox too, and love the Orthodox statement, “All truth is God’s truth”. Do you know C S Lewis’ concept of good dreams-glimmers of Reality showing through the confusion of

@nuzzi6620 2 жыл бұрын

The idea you seem to be relating but that you’ve either not understood properly or have had poorly explained to you is that every god/deity/entity that is worshipped is indeed a manifestation of demons or doesn’t exist at all. There is only one God-every other spiritual being is an angel or a demon. The angels are not and do not demand or allow themselves to be worshipped; some demons do, and one can find _very, very real_ manifestations of demonic activity that can easily be perceived as any number of false gods worshipped in pagan religions, particularly in the Indian subcontinent (Hinduism) and sub-Saharan Africa (voodoo religions). _Those_ gods _are_ devils, and thus their followers are devil-worshippers. It’s not meant to denigrate those people; it’s just an observation of reality and acknowledgement of authentic (albeit obviously negative) spiritual experience in those religions. Just wanted to point that out. Hope it’s helpful. The rest of your comment, I totally agree with! In fact, some churches in Greece actually have icons of Greek philosophers (without halos) in their narthexes! They’re seen as forerunners for Christ in the gentile, predominantly Hellenistic world (in much the same way that Lao Tzu in the Far East could be argued to have played the same role, seeing as his doctrine of the Dao bear striking resemblances to the Christian idea of the Logos).

@gordonstewart8258 2 жыл бұрын

@@nuzzi6620 Philosophers in narthex I’ve heard of. Love that concept too. I’m not saying the other “gods” are valid. Just that the truth observed in/by other religions are still truth. You must be a listener to Lord of Spirits on AFR? If not, I recommend it. Fascinating!

@justadog-headedman6727 2 жыл бұрын

@@nuzzi6620 This is my problem with it. By demon or devil worship I understand that it is a downward force that cannot lead you to higher truths. If you agree with this definition, it just does not make sense for me. I am not saying that there are not cases of demon worship, for example spiritism is something I think could be a clear example of it, but in the case of Buddhism and some aspects of Hinduism, for example, to say without any qualification that they are manifestations of demon worship as defined in the beginning of my comment simply does not make sense. I understand that there are people that cannot relate to having experienced other religions and only see them at a distance, or cases where people engage with very degenerate forms of them (for example these secular mindfulness sessions), I do not know what is your case. For example, to equate Hinduism with voodoo religions betrays a superficial knowledge of the former. As a final point, when I talk about Hinduism I am referring particularly to the more recent Sages, such as Sri Ramakrishna and Sri Ramana. The overall argument I am trying to make is that what you said about Lao-Tzu could be said of many other Eastern Sages.

@novaxdjokovic9592 2 жыл бұрын

@@justadog-headedman6727 Why cling to unjustifiable/partial truths when the Truth Himself walked the earth with us? The Buddha is just a man, Christ is God. 'Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future' touches on this if you haven't read it. God bless!

@FaithEncouragedTV 2 жыл бұрын

These videos cause me great joy/sadness. Joy in that there were whole moments of this video that I understood and enjoyed. And sadness that there was so much more that I am simply not capable of grasping. This leads me to be stretched to know "more." Thank you for this exercise. My mental muscles are sore and will probably require a few days of recuperation. 🤫😏

@tygersoul 2 жыл бұрын

I usually don't have to replay something someone said a second time in order to understand it, but I would like to paraphrase the first clip at the very beginning. "Our collective consciousness drives us into the certain future of whatever it is we are focused on. If we remain in our lower nature and stupidly focused on things that may not benefit us in the long run, like creating sentient AI, those things could potentially destroy us."

@JIMMYUNKNOWN 2 жыл бұрын

Pretty obvious statement.

@criss5405 2 жыл бұрын

We are creating self-fulfilling prophecies.

@kateescobar1818 2 жыл бұрын

" Avoid the sorcerer's apprentice thing at all costs" is for me the quote of this wonderful conversation. Many thanks to all three participants. Totally awesome.

@lionelchan1601 9 ай бұрын

If I jive with what Mr.Hall is saying, and if so it really is deeply Confucian as well as indigenous, then the sorcerors apprentice thing is built into Western post-pagan ways. As John challenged, given how broken everything is then risking it through fellowship may be necessary now. My two cents: even dialogos with family and friends is sorcery when one is untethered (Chinese weakness). Finding true refuge in the Unconditioned One is the only reliable differentiator between simulated top down and real communion, not the conditions. If Church can do that for you fine. I suspect proselytizing particulars as universals will all but always spoil that though.

@appleknockerradio9512 2 жыл бұрын

This is the greatest discussion I have ever seen on this topic. And one of the best discussions I’ve ever witnessed on any subject. I love this. Thanks for putting this together

@joseph3982 2 жыл бұрын

This was an awesomely profound conversation. I got a lot of of it. Think I'm going to listen a third time all the way through.

@PaulVanderKlay 2 жыл бұрын

Is Jordan disparaging Clippy??!! Do animated paperclips have feelings?? :)

@sc0191 2 жыл бұрын

AI peaked with clippy

@climbingmt.sophia 2 жыл бұрын

The distinction between curiosity and wonder kept coming up here for me. The parasitic process is attempting to "have" the territory and only can expand via curiosity. The hyper agent engages with wonder toward the infinite. Also, the power of Dialogos portrayed here is unlike any I have seen before. Combined with a radical and profound humility embodied by all three participants, what emerged was glorious. In answer to John's questions of how to properly participate in the Kairos, it seems to be embodied here.

@lisamoag6548 2 жыл бұрын

I wonder !

@djschneck 2 жыл бұрын

This is one of the most interesting conversations I have ever heard. Copious amounts of respect to these 3.

@13lmcp 2 жыл бұрын

I loved this conversation! It did stretch my brain and caused a dictionary search, but that’s all good growth. I have listened to the Js ( John, Jordan, Jonathan, and Jordan ( I call you guys the 4Js) discuss several times and it is always an interesting, enlightening, stretching and strengthening brain yoga

@alexandrazachary.musician 2 жыл бұрын

1:28:00 This is the old training in shamanism. If you invoke the spirit of the puma, then become the puma, be careful coz you may get trapped in that form and lose your human capacities like language. The imaginal/liminal is fraught with trickiness.

@krisymar1 Жыл бұрын

This talk is mindblowing. For me, this info is the missing puzzle piece ive been searching for. Thank you for this great work

@IndoctReeducate 2 жыл бұрын

3 favorite topics with my 3 favorite KZfaqrs. Tis to a great Friday !

@IndoctReeducate 2 жыл бұрын

@@deestewart5720 Maybe we have to cyberly duel for the rights! There can only be one. 😉

@dorinmicu7511 2 жыл бұрын

What a dialogue! Three brilliant minds and a lot of things/ideas to think about...🙏🙏🙏

@crakhaed 2 жыл бұрын

This was so cool! Absolutely beautiful and fascinating. A lot of things to contemplate and consider deeply. So many great lines in this!

@iananderson8288 2 жыл бұрын

As a young man seeking modern wisdom, and coherent , elastic dialogue, I can't thank you three enough. Even if i have to stop the video every 2 minutes to try and fully understand whats being said , I love it!

@AlxRamirz 2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely loved this convo. Thank you to the gents!

@lfannaly3 2 жыл бұрын

Love hearing more people are becoming aware of Tomberg and his work...MOT is one of the most deep and enlightening spiritual texts ever written

@panninggazz5244 9 ай бұрын

So very happy that y’all are speaking about this topic.

@matthewparlato5626 2 жыл бұрын

What a convo... 47:20 intensely awakened me to Hall's part in this movement...that was a massive insight. Wheww Dialogos!!

@christheother9088 4 ай бұрын

So glad to have found this. I had despaired that intellectuals would be of no use in this battle ( so frequently they are part of the corrosive ooze ) but here I find the opposite with great progress being made. An underlayment of courage and hope make all the difference.

@jackiek4159 2 жыл бұрын

Loved this conversation! Thank you gentlemen! 🙏🏻💞

@Hitlerbaddaringood 2 жыл бұрын

Some of my favorite memories are of me and my buds grabbing some beers and praying to simone de beauvoir all night

@riapresley5446 2 жыл бұрын

Beautiful....Awesome ...Wonderful ....ALL of it....and you all together...the flow...the topics...your individuality.what you all created here! I am a catechumen...so..very sensitive to everything!..who I am now and who am I that will be who I have been( before walking into Orthodoxy) The rap up was also so very wonderful.i could never live in the world very easily...and my religious up bringing made it a sin....I loved how some of your points could be the opposite...but yet both truth. The point of being careful of saying things maybe keep to those close to you where you are loved.....yes...true...the other point of going outside of that ....yes!...I have no family or friends...which is now an exciting point for me....no longer depressing( since stepping into Orthodoxy) I actually understand more of the things I was interested in...and have an excitement about being in this world...and during this time! You all add to my interests or opening up new interests

@justadog-headedman6727 2 жыл бұрын

This was an amazing conversation. Very insightful, I particularly enjoyed that part where John expressed his struggle with his practice and Jonathan`s response to it. My reservation with John`s practice is similar to what Jonathan said really. You simply do not know what exactly you are dealing with. Aside from the rightful criticisms, one thing René Guénon was essential in my own journey was highlighting the existence of these subtle "residues" or this intermediary space where much of the modern "pseudo-religions" are dealing with, spiritism for instance, which I was exposed in my childhood. Guénon's book on spiritism is very insightful into highlighting the dangers of engaging with this subtle realm in a way which is not properly ordered. I think the idea would be that in the context of a church, you can engage in that space in the proper way, depending on the church of course. With this I have in mind Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism, for instance, as compared to the modern manifestations of Christianity.

@EmilBJJLuton 2 жыл бұрын

Could you reference the book on spiritizm please?

@justadog-headedman6727 2 жыл бұрын

@@EmilBJJLuton The Spiritist Fallacy. If you look it up in the Internet Archive you can find a pdf.

@criss5405 2 жыл бұрын

@@justadog-headedman6727 Thanks, I will read it with great interest. Not a Guenon fan but this definitely stirred my attention.

@jaguillermol 2 жыл бұрын

Some christian cults are about total control of their members. Not only must the members believe what the leaders say, but they must lead their life the way their leaders tell them to.

@calpol3314 2 жыл бұрын

Amazing as i listen its like as if i am looking at a puzzle and as the topic goes a long the picture comes clearer. 🤩

@JiminiCrikkit 2 жыл бұрын

Really excellent conversation and extremely well presented (and received ;))

@maggen_me7790 2 жыл бұрын

I love the wise advice of bringing Dialogos "into life" Practis in relation to your family. Great conversation gentlemen!

@matthewparlato5626 2 жыл бұрын

1:30:45 Jonathan's point is precise. It's what time and time again so many have cited as what JV had enamored them by...'his vocabulary' and the quality and depth it affords his conversations and his cognitive narrative/grammar

@EspressoMonkey16 Жыл бұрын

Legendary 200IQ discussion. I understood about 15% of what was said and it was fascinating

@alchemicalweddings7489 2 жыл бұрын

the 'headless' beings you are describing might be what the occult groups called 'larvae', although they tend to attach to individuals and can indeed by generated by an individual which they then turn to parasitically attach to. Egregores are much bigger and generated by group energies, thoughts and emotions. They can also be used to artificially generate archetypal forms with names of power - for example, I have heard of occult groups trying to build an astral egregore of Dagon as a very determined occult effort for which they will recruit adepts to the group work (going back at least 12 years)

@SempreGumby 2 жыл бұрын

49:47 John V. not only the ancient languages but the minds that gronked them and related to the "Hyper Agents" and wrote the ancient stories. Julian Jaynes talked about this in his book "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" about how the minds that wrote those stories were different "then" then they are "now". Fascinating conversation. Thank you. 1:17:00 Jordan Hall: Two ways to be in relationship with Virtue.

@robertgray9599 2 жыл бұрын

A priest, a business person, and a scientist, all brilliant, in dialogue. I wonder if a politician, a clown, a virgin, and mother would add some kind of celestial harmony to this drama that could solve all of the problems of the modern age and we could enter into a new age of humanity. :) Really awesome talk and I'm so glad this was shared!

@nuzzi6620 2 жыл бұрын

Who’s the priest here?

@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 2 жыл бұрын

A virgin and a mother and maybe Santa Catarina or Santa Lucia would definitely help. It is very difficult for men to welcome women intellectually or otherwise. Sometimes I think that is why Christ had to come here.

@elucidation3064 2 жыл бұрын

I volunteer to be the clown.

@TheDonovanMcCormick 2 жыл бұрын

It was great, Jonathan is not a priest though.

@andrewrenwick9252 2 жыл бұрын

REALLY enjoying this friends! 🌊🔥❤️

@Joshuareichmann 2 жыл бұрын

I am suprised to see this word entering the semi popular public discourse - I have a large segment in - the very out there - spiritual book im writing and publishing through Inner Traditions (Incase people are interested) on egregores. Nebulous forces of collective mesmerization etc. My version gets into metaphysical stuff like the nooshere and morphic feild in relationship. Certainly a great way of discussing the memetic waves of evil around and within. Jonathan P, you're a great and warm addition to this convo. Thank you.

@yossarian1633 2 жыл бұрын

Rupert Sheldrake ftw.

@Joshuareichmann 2 жыл бұрын

@@yossarian1633 For real! The Og Drake.

@gettingtogive 2 жыл бұрын

This was brilliant guys. Thank you 🙏

@TheHandler001 Жыл бұрын

Love is the answer! Gratitude and joy

@tleevz1 2 жыл бұрын

Thank you. There is a psychological issue personally that I'm sure is fairly common among fans of this type of content, which is there is an impulse to feel as if I personally know people I have never met. The comment I want to write would be assuming a way too familiar tone and would assume certain knowledge be known to both parties and...even this is insufficient. I'll keep trying, as ugly as that has been I'm still here. Thank you, I am grateful for this being discussed and shared.

@dennisthompson8424 2 жыл бұрын

Three of my favorite thinkers. Cheers!

@kyleleitch3391 2 жыл бұрын

Best yet. Thanks guys.

@sheilaeisele8490 2 жыл бұрын

The phrase "trying to attach ourselves to a good" stood out for me. Like the pursuit of happiness, it has that sense of a "false god". I kept hearing the quote from Luther: "Your god is that to which your heart clings, in which you place your trust." If we invest ourselves in whatever we hope will secure the good we're pursuing, rather than seek to deepen our trust in life and in our relationship with all-that-is, then we are in a reciprocal-closing relationship pattern.

@justicebjorke2790 2 жыл бұрын

We common folk would appreciate it if you guys grounded your abstractions in more real life examples. :)

@MarijuanaCannibis 2 жыл бұрын

Think bees and hives and ants and anthills but on a human activity level

@davidj8651 2 жыл бұрын

To me, the first time I even considered daemons or something else than individual formation, was covid. The sheer force and magnitude of formation was so enormous, that I intuitively felt that it must be "something", forming it. Wether consciously or it not I don't know. But definitely something "living" partly as its own thing rather than just being made up by independent and sovereign components. A little bit like a human body with "living" individual cells, but the cells are not forming the human bottom up for only.

@privatecitizen4001 2 жыл бұрын

Idk scripture refers to satan as a he, implying personhood

@tonywolfemusic5920 2 жыл бұрын

@@privatecitizen4001 sure. But it also refers to the "spirit of this age", "the spirit at work in the sons of disobedience", and many more that seem to imply both are true. Satan is a being, but the darkness and worldliness we see so prevalent in our society is connected with the spirit of anti-Christ.

@jaguillermol 2 жыл бұрын

@@privatecitizen4001 satan means enemy. And what thing inside satan made him rebel? Pride? So is pride the enemy then, controlling satan? Is pride satan? It is much more complex than "satan is a person the bible says so in this verse".

@nickyalexa7744 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting. I felt the same about covid; all the issues of our modern day seem to be fueled by something greater than just an individual spirit. It seems like a larger spirit that possess' groups; kind of like Babylon, or the whore of Babylon. My question would be how do these greater encompassing spirits come into being; do we as humans create them by coming together in common emotion and goal, or do these spirits already exist? Also, is it possible that Satan has some form of equivalent to the Holy Ghost? Does is command a greater spirit for malevolent purposes?

@jaguillermol 2 жыл бұрын

@@nickyalexa7744 My take on it, is that the "spirit beings" are not at all what we have been made to think (by them?) that they are. "Spirit" means movement of air, like wind, and think of everything wind can do, a tornado, making a tsunami, sinking ships, moving sail boats, refresh you on a hot summer day, someone blowing in your ear in a sensual way, think of all a wind can do, then imagine it blowing through your soul instead of through your window, and through the souls of many people at the same time, like inside the collective unconscious, pushing and enticing emotions and ideas and thoughts etc. Then the holy spirit is that breath of wind that the Almighty sends, thus it can do anything and it's good. And it says "god is spirit" because he acts on us this way, by his wind or breath, not forcing us or convincing us with words, but making things move without them realizing why. Or even realizing it happened. Angels then are showing themselves as having human bodies, so the prophets and people in the bible could relate to them, and sometimes with wings, representing being unbound to earth and to moving with the wind (the spirit) , and maybe to stir up a wind (spirit) themselves? But in reality they are definitely not human like beings with or without wings. So satan would be a wind that blows through peoples souls, just like the "holy spirit" (the holy wind), but it is in opposition to it.

@DrPeterMarsh 2 жыл бұрын

Great chat thanks Guys

@kat3762 2 жыл бұрын

Johnathan, you are always sound, humble and wise. I am not sure John, however understood your advise, which I believe was to be aware of intermediate entities which may intrude on even good intent if not grounded in ones practice. Not much different I would say to taking psychedelic's, or any premature or quick fix to reach higher states of awareness. Life is a long spiritual journey. I agree with you and Jorden. Understand the self first and then you can reach out to others.

@nobody8717 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for these discussions. Interesting.

@yossarian1633 2 жыл бұрын

Woah this is fascinating. Timely convo too I'd say, considering.

@spiveeforever7093 2 жыл бұрын

Hahaha when Pageau puts one of Jordan Hall's jargon poems at the start of the video, you know it is going to be good.

@rafajanczukowicz5644 2 жыл бұрын

Yes what a person this Jordan is, so strange when he's talking but so nice, sometimes I'm mesmerised and sometimes I'm laughing out loud, he's an artist

@conornagle9528 2 жыл бұрын

In regards to the kairos at hand- it reminded me of the sermon from one of the Fathers at a Benedictine monastary last week on St. John the Baptist's Day- "John's task is to prepare Israel and receive Jesus as the Messiah. And so he does. But in a manner which is fraught with contradiction, blood and death. Just as it was too be for Jesus himself. So our celebration is qualified with a serious dose of realism... from the book of Ecclesiastis 'if you aspire to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for an ordeal'. The serious lesson in all this for us to aspire to serve the Lord- given the world we live in, and the spirit of the world, living the Christian life risks being difficult, even dangerous. As the crucifix reminds us. .... Watch and pray.... For this new age, this new testament, invited us to a glorious future of life with God- God who is gracious." That really hit home for me. Maybe the Gregorian chanting in between contributed, but what a powerful sermon. Seemed quite relevent for a recent Catholic convert like myself. And possibly for non-Christians as well. Thanks for this dialogue, gentlemen.

@mills8102 Жыл бұрын

At 1:14:00, you nailed a concept that's been prominent for me. We, who are in this liminal space, are obliged to help birth the new world that we may not ourselves be able to enter and we have to be okay with that. That's why Agape is key.

@minimouse7890 2 жыл бұрын

Anyone who is interested in the spiritual realm should read Unseen Realm by Michael S. Heiser. Without it, there is a gigantic hole in our understanding of those things in Scripture that we so often gloss over or discredit because our post-modern mindset just can’t handle the truths of the Bible. Heiser seeks to take away our protective shield from all these uncomfortable ideas. Pastors would do well to read and heed. We don’t need to be protected from the bible.

@Kate77777 2 жыл бұрын

In food growing or gardening systems there is this idea of leaving an area of wildness at the edge, thinking of permaculture or biodynamics especially. In some folk traditions it is said those edge places are left to appease elemental beings, nature spirits, to offer a place for them to be chaotic in exchange for their service in your system.

@shari6063 2 жыл бұрын

Great conversation! 🙏

@Hbmd3E 2 жыл бұрын

1:45:40 there is lot in this, but just to raise up this one almost like off the topic thought from John as it is so important. To create fellowship with the larger group is so important even though it might be hardest to do. Job 36.20 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place. Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction. God mght ask when you come "did you learn to love?" its easier to turn to hate when there is fear between people from suffering

@benjaminwood6714 2 жыл бұрын

Wasn't there once a John doing something down by a Jordan?

@mrwtfwhy 2 жыл бұрын

cease and desist with this cleverness 😂😂

@gabedepaul5407 Жыл бұрын

25:00 wow! I get chills seeing this framework become clearer. What an insane topic

@rlusk99 2 жыл бұрын

Yikes...Jordon seems to be plagued by using more words than necessary to express his thoughts. One might say too diffuse, prolix, and verbose. Found myself skipping past his parts - great speakers and thinkers speak to everyone.

@BalazsKegl 2 жыл бұрын

Besides blindly randomly wondering and collectively finding the exit from the labyrinth, and turning the light on, there is a third option, closer to what Jonathan is saying. Take care of your body, your psyche, your emotional, spiritual, and affective life, and your relationships in a reciprocal broadening way. I would not call that blind wandering, but it is also not a “global” light turned on. You can inspire those around, and that is enough.

@juradoalejandro5261 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting! What would you say is the very standard by which we could organize our lives in order to engage in this spiritual transformation? It seems to me that your comment is filled with wisdom, but the enterprise of identifying which path we should take in order to acquire this wisdom is still - to some extent- unclear. I say this from the perspective of what they were talking in that section of the discussion. I may be reading it incorrectly, but it seems to me that this very obstacle is what is driving the last half of the conversation.

@BalazsKegl 2 жыл бұрын

@@juradoalejandro5261 Yes, thank you, that's a wonderful question! I agree with you, this is the hard problem of living. In a sense all John's course is about how difficult it is. I wouldn't dare to tell you which path to take because I don't know you, and even if I did, only you can discover that. What I can tell you is what worked for me. Of course, John's and Jonathan's (and others') conceptual work is fantastic to intellectually frame transformation. Reciprocal broadening has become my favorite metaphor. I've been in weekly therapy/coaching for four years plus we do couples therapy/coaching every 2-3 weeks. That's all great but these work through my mind. What I realized in the last three years that talk therapy and conceptual framing have their limits, and that I need to work through my body which has its own somatic memories. I'm a head-heavy guy. The lights were always on: I knew I had a body and enjoyed having it, but it was disconnected both from my work and my (hardly flickering) spiritual life. Working on and through my body has been helping to integrate them. As for choosing what to do, who to follow, I go with my instincts. Having a partner who's been doing body work for longer than me helps. Our paths are deeply connected but I am careful not blindly following what she does since her issues are not the same as mines. I usually look at integrity: follow masters who live what they preach. Concretely I do a lot of breathing practices (Wim Hof, transbreathing, slower breathwork like Prema McKeever), occasionally guided meditation (Tara Brach), cold (Wim Hof), movement medicine (David Mooney), weight-flow-contact (Gabor Goda), jujitsu, mindful sex (Mantak Chia, David Deida, Kim Anami). Basically I found everything that gets me out of my head useful. I've been slowly working myself up to start a live blogging of my transformation, I warmly invite you to sign up if I triggered your interest. balazskegl.substack.com/about

@juradoalejandro5261 2 жыл бұрын

@@BalazsKegl Thank you very much for sharing your personal experience and recommendations, I will surely check it and, hopefully, acquire wisdom for my own path! (Sorry if I am asking too much haha. What is your perspective on the "Jesus Prayer" and the explanation Jonathan gives about similar breathing excercises under the idea of the recognition of Being itself in comparison to us, sinners [those who miss the mark]?)

@BalazsKegl 2 жыл бұрын

@@juradoalejandro5261 Give me pls the timestamp.

@BalazsKegl 2 жыл бұрын

@@juradoalejandro5261 This is an excellent lecture, in case you missed it, I feel John's story is getting more concise and plastic, as if he applied the very imaginal techniques to meta-demonstrate how transformation works. Two comments: 1) There is still a limited-participation detached notion in how he names the third level: perspectival. The metaphor is "looking" whereas my instincts would call it immersive, including touching and feeling also your internal state. 2) In some way procedural should get more focus because that is the only place where you can do something about anything. The imaginal is only one way to make you do something transformative, but there are others, from social causes to pure curiosity-driven exploration. I do because I can. Take this with a grain of salt, I am both scoring high on openness and enjoying contact-based transformative experiences very much, so generalization may not follow. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qK6npblqm8jaaGg.html

@redbeard0311 Жыл бұрын

Amazing discussion

@mjluvsjc 2 жыл бұрын

This is a great conversation. I would encourage you to read Tomberg’s other works, including “Lazarus, Come Forth,” which addresses the degeneration of Christianity directly and in a breathtaking manner.

@etiennetaylor8048 2 жыл бұрын

Wonderful. (Thank you for the Nash!)

@evanblackie7510 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much, very uplifting. 🙏

@elucidation3064 2 жыл бұрын

I got a little bit of a humanist vibe from John V. Especially from the manner in which he seemed to distance himself from the mythological language by using words like "Hyper Agent". Trying to control the names of things is the first step in an attempt to subjugate them, but these forces are too powerful to be subjugated. The mythological language has a humility to it that can protect us from mistakes.

@notaboutit3565 2 жыл бұрын

It’s the nature of the beast. Academia when divorced/trying to divorce itself from what comes before, or in other words, trying to individuate loses a fundamental grasp on how to interact with what it’s studying. That’s why it’s so fascinating to me that he kept bringing up language, because he was doing exactly what he was referencing. It’s kind of funny. There’s an interplay at work when dealing with these things, with thought forms, kind of like quantum mechanics; when attention is given it must take one form or another, when no attention is given it’s left undefined/undefinable. By even attempting to apply boundary and shape, it takes the shape applied to it initially. That’s why egregore from a ritual magick sense are so devious. They have to be handled start to finish with care, intention, and definite purpose otherwise you lose control of the narrative so to speak. To your point of humility as a necessity, you’re absolutely correct.

@notaboutit3565 2 жыл бұрын

Mythological language has a humility to it that can seem vague or implicit to a modern, but the ambiguity is a safety net. I think that’s a more condensed way for me to agree with you lol.

@Verulam1626 7 ай бұрын

One of the best videos Jonathan has. Deserves more views than his conversations with Peterson

@hobbsmatt Жыл бұрын

This great conversation inspired me to do some reading up on Dionysus the Areopagite, and I found this quote in an article about his discussion in his Divine Names: “For Proclus, the agent, mistaking the Good, acts in such a way that evil becomes intermixed with being; evil uses a mistaken understanding of the Good as an opportunity to attach itself to being as a parasite. Dionysius, on the other hand, attributes evil to an agent’s inability to participate in the Good - hence evil is an insufficient level of Good” (Wear 2007, 81).

@hobbsmatt Жыл бұрын

“Thus Dionysius says that demons who draw not only their existence but also their life (DN 6 2 856C) and their intelligence (DN 7 2 868C) from the Good are evil to the extent they fall short of goodness or “by virtue of their inability, as scripture puts it, „to hold on to their original source‟” (DN 4 23 725A). They are not evil by nature. “The evil in demons lies in opposing a mind shaped by goodness” (DN 4 32 733A). For Dionysius, evil in demons is a deprivation, an imperfection, a powerlessness and the lack, the abandonment and the rejection of the angelic virtues which are appropriate to them (DN 4 23 725BC). Demon “stupidly has no idea how to obtain what it really wants and indeed does not want it” (DN 7 2 868C). “Devils are, thus, not evil with respect to their being, but in their failed activity or lack of participation in God” (Wear 2007, 83). Devils cannot be evil because evil is impermanent, but devils are always in the same condition (DN 4 23 725AB).”

@hobbsmatt Жыл бұрын

Last one: “Good comes from the one universal Cause, and evil originates in numerous partial deficiencies” (DN 4 30 729C). The origin of evil “is due to a defect rather than to a capacity” (DN 4 34 733C). Thus Dionysius concludes, “Evil exists as an accident”.”

@06rtm 2 жыл бұрын

Has Jonathan Pageau successfully made discussions of demons respectable again?

@markweswhit869 2 жыл бұрын

When Jordan mentioned restoration I couldn’t help but think of Zacchaeus. (Luke 19:1-10). Whether fact or fiction….. it’s all about restoration of the man, those he was unjust too and his community.

@johnmadany9829 2 жыл бұрын

I get together with some Catholic guys every Tuesday morning. We go through the daily readings and then read a reflection. The other day we went through a reflection and worked through it in a rudimentary way to the way that was described here. Ie In the reading of Simone de Beauvoir

@shari6063 2 жыл бұрын

When John describes his practice of I/Thou with Simone he is talking about the veneration of icons.

@thearmchairmystic 2 жыл бұрын

Easy way to understand this metaphysical concept is to watch Neil Gaimans, American Gods. A thought takes on an identity when sufficient collective thoughts come together to form it in agreement, much akin to how an interconnected train of thought would be in an individual. Many drops coming together to form a larger body of water that takes on an essence of its own, like many synapses in a brain coming together to form the brain itself and its informational highway. I'm trying to use analogy here to better explain this term.

@elucidation3064 2 жыл бұрын

What John said reminded me of the Biblical story of the Witch of Endor.

@_ARCATEC_ 2 жыл бұрын

Domains of Being. Suspicion , I can not dwell there. I will leap in finite Faith of eternal trust through Infinite Belief .

@JAMESKOURTIDES 2 жыл бұрын

31:00 Hyperobjects 》Hypersubjects

@MattisWell.20 2 жыл бұрын

Are we the reason why the devil and the demons exist, whatever they are? In Scripture, we are told that sin entered the world through one man; not Lucifer, not even Eve, but through Adam. Does anyone know what Jonathan has to say about this?

@riapresley5446 2 жыл бұрын

Wow O Wow...I can actually understand what you all are saying!!!...and....that it is very interesting...and useful!... especially in the now

@EamonBurke 2 жыл бұрын

1:22:00 what's being described here is a seance. It is necromancy. While this kind of thing is possible, the reason scripture is the right context for this behavior, is because the spirit you are channeling is not dead.

@PrometheusMonk 2 жыл бұрын

Yes! The 3rd way is the Daimonic realm, the place of soul which is the bridge between the earthly and the divine. People get very uncomfortable, even outright hostile (witness iconoclasm), to the 3rd realm because it's ambivalent, both good and evil, angelic and demonic. It challenges the ego's want of clean distinct categories. To fully enter into the 3rd realm requires facing the shadow, in the Jungian sense.

@PetrusSolus 2 жыл бұрын

Those are good additional thoughts for reflection. We can consider the "space aliens" thing as just a current makeover for daimonic beings, as Jung suspected and Patrick Harpur unpacks in his book Daimonic Reality with some depth. Daimonic beings take the forms that our psychological conditions make possible, and eventually demand, for the sake of spiritual resolution and karmic integration. They take different forms throughout history. For a certain people in a certain time and place, it was elves and leprechauns, for others among desert peoples it was djinn, for others it was fairies, and so on… for us it’s ET aliens. I think it's also important to note a progression from fear-based avoidance to one of eventual reception and allowance - e.g. many of the earlier abduction scenarios, in which people experienced scary malevolent beings doing all kinds of awful things to them, eventually gave way to more friendly, benign entities - indicating that, collectively, we’ve been working through enough of our karmic stuff and therefore the beings don’t need to provide malevolent interactions anymore. And so, as our enlightenment process proceeds, those continuing to push any space alien invasion or infiltration angles, are playing to an audience pool that’s rather been drying up.

@criss5405 2 жыл бұрын

@@PetrusSolus I am more and more open to the explanation that Aliens are actually daimonic identities.

@elizabethmolnar4643 Жыл бұрын

Thank you again.

@phoult37 2 жыл бұрын

"Shit's fucked up" is one of the better summaries of our times that I've heard...it was was a comical break from an otherwise high-styled conversation

@MrDevilsAdvocaat 2 жыл бұрын

You really must watch ‘Princess Mononke’ for a great illustration of this headless hyper agent

@Ardlien 2 жыл бұрын

The Simpsons episode where Bart cuts the head off the statue is the same.

@elusivemayfly7534 2 жыл бұрын

YES!! Great reference

@TheUrfriendlyPodcast 2 жыл бұрын

Wonderful conversation and fulI of insight! I highly recommend Mark Stavishs' book Egregores The Occult Entities that Watch Over Human Destiny for a deeper understanding about Egregores and how they are perceived as thoughtfoms.

@andreiadetavora8471 11 ай бұрын

His book is amazing!!

@elitefitrea 2 жыл бұрын

I have a problem with the concept of a hyper agent. It’s a question of accountability. If a hyper agent commits a crime, who goes to jail? One person? Everyone? No one? Like, how can there be an agent in the picture if you can’t talk to that agent, bargain with it, etc? Like, is agency the right word? To me, an agent is someone you could hold responsible for an outcome. I also have a problem with the idea of a crowd/mob in today’s context not having agency since these people are wound up like toys by ideas that were generated by socialist thinkers who desired exactly these kinds of mobs as an outcome. They are not spontaneous in my view but rather a kind of social technology that has been developed as a means of warfare in the age of nuclear weapons.

@luisalbertomaldonado2658 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting ideas worth considering. I have one thought regarding the accountability of hyperobjects: Take nazism in Germany as an hyperobject. Saying that nazism is being conceptualized as an hyperobject by the Germans after the war would be an overstrecht, but they have implemented ways to prevent it from manifesting again. Example: Nazi symbols are forbiden. So you take an hyperagent accountable by implementing ways of controling its manifestation.

@notaboutit3565 2 жыл бұрын

@@luisalbertomaldonado2658 this is why it’s so important to delineate between a “hyperobject” and an egregore. National socialist ideology did not have at its core the things for which people were tried at Nuremberg. It was a socio-economic “solution” to very real problems that Germany faced. The egregore that “nazism” became synonymous with ie anti-semitism, egregious human experimentation, rampant nationalism etc evidently didn’t have very clear symbols to attack since the Big 3 each saved thousands of members involved in that thought form from prosecution so as to benefit directly from the inhumanity. So was nazism actually held accountable if the technology that has led to you and I being able to type these comments developed in part due to advancements made under nazism and their cannibalization? Are we now complicit? If nazism or Stalinism or Maoism are just “hyperobjects”, then they can be clearly and definitely observed and measured by third parties, so as to prevent the conditions for their development; if they’re instead egregores or thought-forms, then by attempting to subdue them one actually begins to reform and repurpose them while still retaining the “crimes” committed in the will of the egregore. It’s an interesting problem.

@MortenBendiksen 12 күн бұрын

A healthy structure is thankful for what it has been, repentent of what it is, and open to what it is to become. (repentent not in a moral way, but simply self reflective and course correcting)

@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026 2 жыл бұрын

60 years ago Francis Schaeffer predicted the values of the future would be personal peace and affluence……

@Kwalk1989 2 жыл бұрын

Took the top of my head off for the inevitable mind blow that will result from hearing this conversation. lol

@fastingcoach9711 Жыл бұрын

Brillant insights! Is there a book on this topic? Thank you very much!

@agapicorientation 2 жыл бұрын

The spirit is manifesting in the exaptations of the participants within the constraints of the moment. If there is no structure to cohere to/Submit to. The motivations of the participants and therefor what they are participating in is so distinct that it cannot hold over time without an commitment of the participants. If the spirit that manifests is based on the exaptations of the participants you cannot expect there to be intimate relationships between people and therefor there is no strength to rely on outside of the conviction of the participants.

@williamjmccartan8879 2 жыл бұрын

31:35, the top sublimates it's self to the bottom because it's lost the ability to provide coherent direction, a brain gremlin, chewing at the wires.39:55, Jordan opens the door, John walks through, 51:20 Jordan puts a bouncer at the door. Jordan at 1:20 every indigenous people should hear those words. Thank you John, Jordan and a big hand for the host Jonathan. Peace

@ErnestoEduardoDobarganes 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for Sharing !!

@michaelshlain2211 Жыл бұрын

At @1:04:18 John speaks of "the proper proportional participation" with Kairos and suggests that we have lost the language to discern this. It occurs to me that we might look for context in the I Ching-- which engages with the question of "how do I, in this moment, best meet the Change that is always upon us."

@RickDelmonico 2 жыл бұрын

The constitution of a people lives in their ethos. The dysregulation of a people lives in their pathos. The reasoning ability of a people lives in their logos. The critical or opportune times in which we live is kairos. The character of the stage on which we must operate is the topos. The stories on which our culture has been built upon and passed down is the mythos.

@ShowMeMoviesInc. 2 жыл бұрын

I basically don’t understand what the Jordan Hall guy is saying and I found it annoying how he wasn’t listening. When you look away and roll your eyes in the back of your head it’s no wonder every time he spoke it was kind of off topic. Just my opinion