Godefroy is the key to all of this

As always - wonderful chatting this through with you. Love the podcast!

Miquella : Brother be my consort! Radahn : Ha, over my dead body!! Miquella: That can be arranged....

Regarding radahn being charmed - at the start of p2 he starts glowing red, almost like the true radan is waking up. Then miquella appears and he instantly begins to glow gold again - before miquella literally attaches to his back above him, almost like he is a marionette. Its not necessarily a smoking gun and could be explained as just a cool visual for the fight - but an interesting detail to consider

Marika is the spirit tuner Hewg is indebted to. With the Shamans being Shrine Maidens in japanese, who do spirit rituals, I bet Marika met/saved Hewg when she was taken to Bonny village and saved him from being jarred. Years later heres Roderika who's a spitting image of young Marika, Roderika herself being a young blonde haired exiled nobile from another land, I bet she's a numen.

Alright the discussion on the omen has given me a theory, what if Marika sent Messmer to destroy the hornsent BECAUSE they were causing the omen curse in response to whatever betrayal Marika had done too them? Marika essentially became a god, usurped their position as the leading power in the lands between and went off on her own with her followers. The hornsent, bitter about being tossed aside and forgotten implanted themselves into the new erdtree culture by sending vengeful spirits of their dead to curse some children in erdtree society to be born with aspects of the crucible. I feel like this explains more why Marika waited so long to actually destroy the hornsent instead of doing it immediately after becoming a god, she felt that her betrayal of them was enough punishment for what they were doing to the shaman/numen, but when the omen curse appeared she realized the only way to stop it was to wipe out the hornsent entirely. This could also be why the furnace golems were created, to destroy the hornsent in body AND SPIRIT so that they could no longer use HORNSENT SPIRITS to create the omen curse. Omen are basically just people that have been stuffed full of hornsent spirits, which is why they can spew spirits and why they are described as being tormented by spirits.

It must've hurt Marika pretty badly for her golden child to be the prince of DEATH, the removal of which her entire order, godhood and identity is based on. Not only did she lose a child but her entire foundation. No wonder she was pushed to the brink

Radhan was probably super confident that the vow was nothing to him. He was sure he would win.

What stuck out to me was Freyja mentioning Jerren not being happy with Radahn's rebirth. I do not it is rebirth specifically that Jerren would object to, but the act of putting one soul into a different body, much like how we put Sellen's "soul" into another body. He also swore an oath of "honorable death" with Radahn (per his set) and he objected to the use of primeval glinstone hearts to overtake the bodies of other people. He is also someone obsessed with stars and destiny. Another point: Miyazaki has stated in an interview that Radahn has a hard time accepting change, which is likely why he holds the stars in stasis. He was the "god of war" in vers 1.00 and an age of brainwashed passivity would have disgusted him.

Lorewise, it makes very little sense for Radahn to have consented to the permanent destruction of his homeland (he is trying his best to protect Selia from the celestial threat even in the zombified state he's been reduced to by that point in the story). Furthermore, Malenia's provocative whispering into his ear just before unleashing the Scarlet Flower on Caelid seems more like a cruel taunt than a calculated move in a larger scheme between the two parties.

Maybe Radahn’s part of the vow was “I’ll be your lord when I’m cold in the ground.” Basically saying that he doesn’t want to be his lord, but Miquella took that vow literally.

Adding a 5th talisman slot would have been nice. Another way to give us a little more power in the dlc while adding to the base game.

Hear me out here: The Gloam Eyed Queen had Messmer and Melina with Marika. This explains the GeQ's weird place in the timeline, all of the Melina connections, as well as a better explanation for Messmer's snake associations. I've always been a GeQ = Melina believer in the past but one thing that erked me was that Melina just isn't very... Motherly? Like for one thing, she's small. I highly doubt someone of Melina's stature would be able to *birth* an entire apostasy of snake people, but thats a nitpick. In the story Melina often mentions her mother, which to me, tells me the narrative treats Melina as a daughter, rather than a mother. I believe Melina's lack of iconography in Golden Order society is because she's less so Marika's daughter than the Gloam Eyed Queen's Daughter. She learned her teachings, she learned about the importance of death and birth rather than eternal life, and she has the power of death sealed in her eye. (Speaking of sealing things in eyes, Messmer too has the Abyssal serpent sealed in his eye, and I think this makes a lot more sense if both Melina and Messmer are the GeQ's kids, they both have powers of hers sealed behind their left and right eye respectively.) As a follow up to the last point, I don't believe Marika was the mother who gave Melina her duty, I think it was the GeQ. Her duty is to act as kindling, and to burn down the erdtree, and while Marika does go against the Greater Will, it's completely against her interest to burn down the Erdtree. This is why Melina is so chill with being burned alive, her own mother instilled in her a philosophy that death makes way for life, and that its both necessary and beautiful in a way. Lastly some misc things which make me skeptical about GeQ = Melina. - Her fighting style being the same as the Black Knife assassins would be strange if she seems to predate them by so long. The Black Knife Assassins seemed to have been formed after Maliketh already held the rune of death, and the GeQ was from an era before this. -The GeQ used a gigantic greatsword, and Melina's fighting style doesn't suit this. The Godslayer's Greatsword is also unwieldy in the hands of a Tarnished, leading me to believe its original wielder was large enough to use it like a straight sword. -Metyr shares some striking imagery with the Geq's Iconography, her Black Flame Fingerprint icon seems to be based on Metyr's face, and her greatsword shares a spiral shape with Metyr's tails thats pretty unique even considering how common the spiral shape is in Elden Ring. This tells me Metyr, upon landing in Miyr, chose the GeQ before even Marika was chosen by a 2 Fingers. -There is the skin of a snake in the Bonny Village, I don't know what this means, I don't think anybody does, but if it does have something to do with the Gloam Eyed Queen then it means she was likely a part of the Shaman culture rather than Leyndell culture.

I definitely did a play through where I reserved Farum Azula / Mountain Tops / Halig Tree / Consecrated Snowfield / burning erd tree. And went straight to Killing Mohg and Radahn then went to shadow lands. It was roooough starting at lvl 105 but it was very rewarding to get the abundance of stones plus scadutree

I interpreted miquella and redahns promise, as another example of miyazakis idea of "heroic traits" being corrupted with the demigods. That miquellas heroic trait is innocence, and his flaw is naivety. He naively asked redahn to be his consort at a young age, and radahn requested of him something he considered impossible, maybe his defeat, or when the "eternal" golden order dies, or something-- and miquella took it to heart and obsessed over it and did unimaginable things to achieve it.

I've always been of the mindset that Radahn locked down the stars to stop Ranni's plan, and the idea that he would do the same to stop Miquella's plan as well fits into that mindset. We know that Radahn was always a champion of the Golden Order, he learned about outer powers through his gravitational studies with the Alabaster Lord, and he was a Carian just as much as Ranni. If his fate is to be something other than the Lion of the Golden Order, he himself could deny this fate by sealing the stars.

Approximately an hour and a half of two people stumbling through the dark that is the Elden Ring lore

The Gate of Divinity requires a lord for the God to return from it This to me implies that Marika's betrayal was her bringing Horaux Loux to the tower and together with him they slaughtered the towers keepers and Marika ascended to Godhood Its also very clear to me that Miquella's story is a direct parallel to Marika and this is why Radagon is not a God until the shattering because he was her abandoned other half

My thing with Radahn "not making sense" is that all we heard in the base game and lore tubers was that we don't know what Miquella's plan is. There was some speculation but I don't really think what we got violated anything. That and if you think back to something like Dark Souls 3's DLC - all of that lore is entirely new as well. That's just to say this isn't unprecedented by From.

metyr being more ancient than the elden ring itself is so interesting to me

Ranni seems oddly disconnected from Miquella and Radahn My head canon is that Radahn being Miquella’s concert is Radahn’s reward for upholding his end of the deal, not the other way around. Miquella needed time work on his plan. Radahn’s ability to hold the stars gave Miquella time to figure out how to usher in a new age. His plan seems rushed, like the Haligtree was plan A and the DLC was a desperate attempt to have his own age. I think Ranni orchestrating the night of the black knives shows she was much closer to achieving her goal. Her next steps are pretty simple compared to Miquella. The Age of Stars happens like immediately if Radahn isn’t holding the stars. Miquella has to be aware of that to some degree following the night of black knives. Radahn promised to hold the stars back until Miquella’s plans are in place. Maybe he fights Malenia because Miquella is dead/cocooned and thinks the plan is off. Their agreement could be a secret, partially explaining the lack of connections in the main game. The Golden Order would know something is up if they were openly cooperating.

Miquella ask Radhan to be his consort and the second part of the Vow was and i quote General Radhan "Over my dead body kid"

An educated guess on how the golem message happened from my professional game dev experience: It was most likely not "one guy" but "most people" that missed the golem weak point. The first solution was most likely to make the weak point stand out more. They did additional testing and found out that many people still struggled to understand. so they threw their hands up and went for the nuke. A designer added a dev message, and an artist continued to make the gem more evident. That's how you end up with a classic case of over correction, where there is both a very evident design clue and a dumbass message on the ground. Makes me think that maybe there could be a different ways to envision "difficulty options" for souls likes with a "guidance mode" that adds messages like the golem one, and indications like "your current build is shite, level up stat X". It wouldn't clear the issue of people missing some of the fun of discovery and experimentation because they fear playing without guidance mode, but at least that wouldn't wreck the game's combat experience.

It definitely makes sense for Messmer to be the first born. You guys are on the money. His attitude and devotion to marika is only something that would come from a first born. The only moment he spites his mother his when he's dying

It just makes sense that Radahn was initially charmed. We know that Miquella charms through making promises based on what happens when Radahn grabs you in the fight. He grabs you and makes you a promise. This promise results in you becoming charmed into vowing yourself into his service. What makes the most sense is that Radahn was charmed, but this charm was broken when the Elden Ring was shattered, similar to what we see in the game when Miquella breaks his Great Rune. Then Malenia has to go to Caelid to force Radahn to honor the vow.

The fact that it's Radahn's spirit but Mohg's body, the body should have resembled Mohg more. Instead it just looks like Radahn wearing horny armor but they had the option to make a more unique looking boss. A horned monstrosity that has lost it's mind, but in phase 2, Miquella embraces him like Serosh on Godfrey, and his moves start to resemble Radahn's moves in his main game fight. Oh hey, kinda like Ludwig, many people's favorite FromSoft boss fight!!!

It was never Godwyn. We saw in the base game that anything involving Godwyn failed. That's the whole point of Miquella's curse: Nascence. Nothing he does or attempts can come to fruition or completeness.

I think Radahn absolutely wanted to be Elden Lord. His two role models were, I think he made a promise that if Miquella became a god, he world be willing to be the consort. Radahn dying and being reborn may have been only necessary for to occur in the shadow realm, a place where Miquella could upend the entire erd tree from the source.

Lore theory: Empyrians have the innate ability to break off pieces of themselves to create other people similarly to how cuttings from a tree can grow a new tree. Grafting is attaching new branches to a tree. Cutting is growing a new tree from a removed branch. This might not be restricted to just empyrians but empyrians definitely do this. Miquella splits off his love as Trina. Malenia splits off her will and self respect as Millicent. Marika may be in the process of splitting radagon off from herself. Shadow-bound beasts may also be these split souls, as Serosh is meant to contain loux's bloodlust. Maliketh may also contain part of Marika. And if I'm right, Melina split off from Ranni, perhaps representing her fate or faith. This would explain why melina is confused by the concept of a mother despite being a daughter of marika, since she wasn't traditionally born. If we go one step weirder, followers of the three fingers talk about stopping births and thus divisions of life. Perhaps all birth in the lands between involves a splitting as well.

I think people get it twisted and assume that because Miquella was looking for a way to help his favored brother Godwyn die a true death (see Last Rites word item description) and the experiment at castle sol to bring a soul back (presumably to Godwyn) that that somehow automatically means that the reason why he was doing so was so that he could be his king consort in his coming age of becoming a god. You have to remember that Godwyn's death was at the beginning, beginning of the end. Before the shattering kicked off. From what we can tell by Miquella being named by Morgott as one who ended up later betraying the Erdtree, its clear he was initially still on his mission to just fix his siblings in any way he could. He tried castle sol for godwyn, he tried the unalloyed needle for melania, he tried and failed to make his own erdtree in the haligtree for all those cast aside and rejected by the erdtree such as the albinaurics and the misbegotten. And after all of that THEN he moved on a plan to upend the whole of it and become a God because none of it was working within the existing system. He made a vow with Radahn because in his eyes, his brother's "strength, and his kindness, [that] stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves". Godwyn was the golden child, the one demigod who had embodied the Golden Order like no other. Miquella's whole journey through the lands of shadow had him divesting himself of his flesh, his fate, and all things golden specifically to get away from Marika's legacy in its entirety when becoming a new God. In what world would it have made sense that he had the literal golden boy as his consort? To me, it was clear that Godwyn's story ended as the Golden Order was ending. He was the first nail in the coffin of that chapter of the lands between. As much as it would have been cool to see some more about those who are continuing to follow and exalt his living corpse and the blight its spawning, I always saw his soul as DEAD dead as it was slain with the rune of death, full stop. I also think that the mad taint of the runes just amplified each demigod's main aspect and twisted it. Morgott's appreciation of the erdtree and golden order despite being spurned by it became zealous fervor, Rykard's place as one to dole out justice and judge and jury, what was seen as 'heroic' cause by his men turned greed and feeding himself and every champion of the volcano manor to the snake, Melania's loyalty to being Miquella's blade going so far as to break herself and what Miquella had wanted from her (freedom from control of the rot) to kill Rahdan, Rahdan's noble love of battle, but as a hero and protector turned into him being a vicious warlord. And this one is more speculation because we never saw Miquella in the base game, but his lack of wisdom and curse of his underdeveloped perspective on his compassion, etc. being dialed up to 10 and making him think his forced compassion age being the only option. It makes plenty of sense that Rahdan could have initially agreed to the vow, willing to be that noble man and be the king consort, but with the mad taint of the runes genuinely lost his mind and that's the only reason that Melina had to come fight him rather than him not going willingly.

About Melina being marika's daughter, don't forget she has a smoldering butterfly. All children of Marika and Radagon have a butterfly.

An important note on the scadutree fragments. Blessing level 12 acts like a soft cap, and after it the improvements are marginal. As such the 21 scadutree fragments required to make the extra 8 levels are effectively surplus in a similar way to Ratatoskr was suggesting fromsoft add in surplus fragments. This was the case even before the adjustment patch, albeit to a slightly lesser extent iirc. There’s a case to be made that this was never communicated and helped fuel the feeling that the system was unfairly punishing though

I agree that the biggest issue with the Scadutree system was not having more than 50 fragments. I also play like Smough, like 90%, but i got to the end having missed 4 fragments. At level 18, I questioned whether or not they even took it to 20, so even having a maximum denominator or something would help.

Rata was so in denial of Messmer being the child of Marika and Radagon to push his GEQ agenda. Glad he’s seen the light now.

Imo the tree fragments are not the issue, it's the escalated boss design. What I mean is these are Sekiro or Bloodborne bosses, which isn't bad exactly, the issue is they are bosses designed for a different style of from game. Elden Ring, base and DLC. Is effectively dark souls 3 rules for the player, but the bosses are running on Sekiro and Bloodborne rules. This is why 99% of weapon arts are worthless. The bosses attack too fast with such tiny openings, basically making every boss kind of the same. A press roll simulator. That's the key issue imo. It also kind of restricts the way you play.

I think a lot of the Godwyn discourse could have been alleviated with more explicit confirmation that Miquella was forced to change his mind after the Eclipse failed and go with Radahn. As it stands now, all base-game evidence pointed to Godwyn and Radahn comes out of left field with no foreshadowing whatsoever. I still think involving Godwyn would have been a better choice, even just using his monstrous corpse somehow. If they were totally tied to not changing the Duskborn ending (which is also so nebulous that it adds to the issue), they really just needed a couple lines of lore to explain why Miquella pivoted away from the obvious choice for a compassionate warrior-king. As it stands now, Radahn’s appearance is like whiplash for people who actually were interested in Miquella pre-DLC.

My “eureka!” Moment for understanding why Radahn was chosen as consort was thinking of Radahn and Miquella as another iteration of the “Red King, White Queen” pairings going on between the known lords and gods. Radagon and Marika, Placidusax is a red king, Godfrey and Marika, and now Radahn and Miquella. It’s a simple thing that made me appreciate the choice more.

If Marika didn't plan the shattering, but was pushed over the edge by the death of Godwyn, why does she tell the tarnished to come back in the future and take the elden ring for themselves? “In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey.”

If Melina or Marika were receiving orders from a possible Destined Death Outer God, the conversation w Melina at the Minor Erdtree Church and the gesture we get afterwards (Outer Order) would make for quite the subtle connection

I don't know if you get to it eventually, but my one stab at how the base game sets up the final boss is the Golden Order Greatsword (I think) quote where Miquella says "O brother, Lord Brother, please die a true death." We all assumed this was meant to reference Godwyn. I think it actually still is! However, I think that it now also applies to Radahn, who Miquella also refers to as "Lord Brother." My theory would be that Miquella and Godwyn had a true promise or vow or pact with each other, probably that Godwyn would be Miquella's Consort, that did not work out. And then, in his grief and confusion, Miquella projected that same scenario onto Radahn. And then it didn't work out AGAIN because he didn't actually die when Malenia fought him. So Miquella's trauma is compounding and he's getting more and more desperate, which leads him to do things he shouldn't be doing, make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, and make sacrifices he shouldn't be making. EDIT: the above assumes that at least some part of Radahn's vow to Miquella was non-consenting, and based on Miquella's famed ability to "wield his love to shrive clean the hearts of men." Radahn's part of the vow was, I assume, something to the effect of "if you can find someone strong enough to kill me in a fair fight, then I will go along with your crazy schemes." Now that I'm typing this out, it occurs to me that Radahn might have seen Miquella as a child, and not understood that he was "consenting" to a vow or compact or agreement on such a deep emotional and metaphysical level. So from Miquella's perspective, him sending Malenia to fight Radahn is honoring his vow. From Radahn's perspective this is all the Shattering War, and until Malenia speaks those final words to him he might not even have remembered his "vow" to Miquella. The tragedy here seems to be that the "promise" that Radahn made to him is the kind of good-faith "promise" you make to a child, that doesnt' really apply to an adult world. But Miquella never grows up, so his child-logic can reshape the world, and Radahn's own identity and agency. I agree with you that a "proper" Elden Lord would not be tricked into it, but would choose freely. This seems to be why grace does not accept Miquella's Order as legitimate, and why we have to fight then and cannot choose to ally with them like we can with Ranni, Goldmask, etc.

I absolutely loved the DLC, but there was just so much lore unanswered and questions raised, we as fans went nuts trying to answer it all before the DLC, then we got disappointed. I fully expected Miquella to somehow solve most of the plot issues and tie everything up somehow, which now that I look back on it, is crazy naive. we just get so much stuff about unalloyed gold, the eclipse, the haligtree -- and then for all of that to go way of "oops sorry just Radahn" felt weird. I do think Miquella ascending to godhood in the land of shadow was a last ditch effort to try and fix things though, considering all his other projects failed. you become so desperate you do the unthinkable you thought you'd never do -- in the end, he became his mother of participating in that cycle of endless "no wait, i can fix it!!" which is really tragic. great conversation, y'all.

if you kill grandam wearing the dancing lion mask, she eventually gives in and sacrifices herself to you, thinking that you're trying to feed on her for life.

I'm personally of the opinion that radahn never speaks because miquella's plan kind of failed. The scarlet rot was supposed to kill radahn. But he held on for years, if not decades afterward. The soul miquella brought back was the cannibalistic monster we fought in the base game, not the kind horse lover. Also, the Freudian implications of miquella forcing himself on his brother, who looks so similar to his father while simultaneously looking so much like his own mother while he literally attempts to take her place, is quite unsettling. All miquellas' efforts to build a better order than marikas ultimately led him down the exact same road.

I love love love these lore podcasts, great way to wrap up my day of thinking of the DLC all day at work

So, Radahn being revived being his condition to become Miquella's lord makes it *more* likely he's actually being charmed -- because Malenia comes explicitly on Miquella's order, with Miquella apparently along with her, to basically kill him to fulfill it. This seems like a weird thing for Radahn to want. "Oh, you gotta revive me for me to be your consort." Yet he wants an honorable death by Jerren? Why would he want to be consort at all for Miquella? And why would he still agree if Miquella decides to force the issue by killing him? Either Radahn wanted an insurance policy against death, or maybe he wanted to see if Miquella's blade could defeat him...which, it turns out, she couldn't. Either way, Miquella doesn't really fulfill that promise.

I’m thinking that Radahn thought he could ascend to Elden Lord without Miquella becoming a god and charming everyone. So maybe his vow was “I’ll be your consort if I don’t beat everyone else in the Shattering War and become Elden Lord myself” Then Miquella kinda betrayed him and had Malennia kill him

Been waiting for this. Been excited for the lore chat. Good vibes.

The Death Knight armor say's Godwyn's personal guard quested to find his cadaver. This may suggest that the Shadow Realm was removed from the Lands Between after Godwyn's death, and so perhaps Messmer could have been born and went on his crusade later on in the timeline as well.

So two things about this DLC that are interesting and aren't being discussed as much that I think needs more eyes on it. Miquella's and Radahn's vow to each other is specifically separate from the promise Miquella is asking Radahn to make. The other is that Messmers crusade cannot be Marika's betrayal of the hornsent. His crusade with all the evidence must have taken place after the Liurnian wars and possibly as cloak in the timeline as the banishment of Godfrey and the beginning of the long march of the Tarnished. We know this because Messmer acted as an older brother figure to Radahn which means he was around for Radahns youth and the fact that he recognizes us almost immediately as a Tarnished meaning he knows what the Tarnished are which he cannot have known if he was banished to the realm of shadow under the pretense of his crusade if he wasn't around for the banishment of Godfrey and his soilders. Im actually very glad you covered my second point

This thought occurred to me while listening. What if Melina is the gloam-eyed queen and the godskin hunt that ended with her defeat was in retaliation of her brother being betrayed and sealed in the land of shadows. In her anger at the betrayal, she could have led her followers against the order to retrieve the means to free Mesmer. Then she was defeated and slain by Maliketh and her power, i.e. the rune of death was sealed. She even states in base game that she is burned and bodiless, just like ranni after the night of black knives. Also, her gloam eye is sealed by a claw mark, Maliketh stabs his left claw to unleash the black blade during the fight. Just my thoughts. Could be totally off. Also, still salty about lack of Velka lore.

It might sound weird but I actually think the biggest piece of evidence against Melina being the Gloam Eyed Queen is that it’s only one of her eyes that is. If someone had one red eye and one blue eye you wouldn’t call them “the blue eyed queen” or the “red eyed queen” you would call them the “blue and red eyed queen”, or the “hetrochromiac queen” if you wanted to be technical about it.

I think the reason that Radahn comes across as pretty egregious is because of the lack of anything in the DLC being mentioned in the base game. There's no mention of Messmer in the base game (no I don't think the Impaler's Catacombeshas much to do with him), no mention of Rellana in the base game, no mention of the hornsent in the base game, no mention of the Scadutree or shadow realm in the base game, no mention of the shamans in the base game, no mention of bayle in the base game. The difference with Radahn, is he unfortunately is one of the characters whom we actually have a baseline for. So introducing all this new lore that appears to have to precedent feels jarring even if they didn't do anything particularly unique with him.

The Fingers seduced Marika. Marika unravels the natural religion and culture of her world to replace it with an alien God’s Order. Thats the betrayal. It’s deeper than pot vengeance.

I think its an interesting philosophical question to think about what 'vows' and 'promises' mean to a demigod child with the power of compulsion and coercion. If it wasnt for that one sentence that really does make it seem indisputable that there was a part of the vow to resurrect Radahn, i think its very easy to think that Miquella's Vow is not with Radahn, but is a one sided delusion of what being selected by your own Two Fingers means. If the Two Fingers choose him to be a god candidate, then it is going to require a consort. Trying to keep in mind his eternal childhood curse and presuming it extends to his lack of wisdom, its not inconceivable to me that this child took the Two Fingers selection as a promise of godhood, and that would imply the promise of a consort, and it makes sense this kid would want his big strong valiant older brother to be his enforcer. Then you end up in this very weird place only a child demigod with godlike powers of sociopathy could end up, convicning himself he's been promised a whole load of things that nobody promised at all ("You have to be my lord, the fingers said I get a lord because I'll be a god.") But, yeah there probably was some lame deal Radahn made where he's resurrected and allowed to fight forever.

I think this DLC has doubled down on one of the big themes of the FromSoft games; you don't f*ck with the natural order. Marika removed death from the Natural Order to create her own Golden Order. Miquella would remove not death, but FREE WILL, which is arguable much worse. Granted, I still think this is done with good intentions but it doesn't make it any less nefarious. Still he wouldn't be ruling on his own merit, just using someone mightier to act as his enforcer. What makes it even worse is that [Promised Consort] isn't even the first time Miquella has tried to resurrect another demigod to control as his means to godhood. Remember at Castle Sol he tried to resurrect Godwin via a solar eclipse, but that plan was thwarted because RADAHN was holding back the celestial bodies. So of course he didn't want to play with Godwin anymore, he found a better toy.

Mechanically I really enjoy the final boss. I just think it could've been better if Mohg shinned thru just a little bit more. As it is now, there's just one blood slash explosion and a few omen horns on Radahn's armor. I wish there were a few more Mohg attacks. It also would've been cool if the music in the first phase was a mash up of Radahn's and Mohg's themes. I do love the Radahn chorus remix, but Mohg should've had more of a presence. This team has proven they are musical masterminds. Im sure they could've meshed Radahn and Mohg's theme into an amazing first phase track

Ratatoskr, you missed the ball on the age of Order ending. What you describe of the Age of Order ending is actually what the Age of Fracture ending is, which is just like rekindling the flame in Dark Souls, you aren't solving the problem by just mending the Eldenring, Goldmask's philosophy fixes this issue. As another commenter has put quite well, "There's been a lot of good explanations already but I'll take a crack because the flavor of these games is interpretation anyways. So the default ending is like linking the fire in Dark Souls, you solve the immediate problem by kicking the can down the road but eventually as the world continues walking it'll reach the can again and nothing will have been truly solved. Whether it's Marika or another god, their imperfections will inevitably lead to them making selfish and/or impulsive decisions that harm the world because, despite their power and divinity, the gods are not that different from the common person and have personality flaws. Most of the state of the world as we see it in the game is because of who Marika was as a ruler and the choices she made throughout her reign. Take the shattering, for instance. A grief stricken parent, her cherished son murdered, decided the system was broken and chose to tear it all down in a fit of impulsive rage/grief. That is both very relatable and understandable of her, but also very human of her, and we expect our gods to be above human emotion and weakness don't we? A logical and benevolent god wouldn't destroy the fabric of reality despite any sort of attack against them because they should be above petty things like that. Marika, despite her divinity, is essentially just a grieving mother who acted out rashly in her despair. Gold Mask, upon learning the truth that Marika and Radagon are in fact the same being (look into alchemy and the concept of the Rebis for more on that) realized that a lot (or all) of the pain, suffering, chaos and war that had been inflicted upon the land throughout known history is, at its most simple terms, because of the meddling of the gods. Because of Marika/Radagon's actions and choices. Their fickleness, as it's put, is no better than mortal humans, despite them supposedly being better than them. He sees that Marika having had the free reign to just decide to mess with or destroy the rules of reality that held the world together (symbolized literally and figuratively as the titular Elden Ring and its content runes) as the problem. She didn't want her family to die so she just...removed death from existence by taking that part out of the Elden Ring, but that then altered reality as a whole and essentially now no one could die. That might seem cool at first but the world and people were not meant or designed to be immortal and problems arose from it. Then someone like Ranni, who was dissatisfied with the way things were, stole a fragment of that rune of death, essentially the concept of death, and used it to kill her body and Godwyn's soul. She needed a sacrificial soul to die instead of hers so her spirit would live on past her body's death and free her from the influence of the two-fingers/Greater Will. This meant that while her flesh died and her spirit remained, Godwyn suffered the inverse and his soul died but his body essentially lives on in undeath now sort of alive but without his soul, causing the deathblight and introducing undeath into the world. Oops, guess you have to break some eggs to make an omelette right? Whether you agree with Ranni's ultimate goals or not, the only reason her plot was even possible was because the Elden Ring, the fundamental laws of reality, were in fact alterable by the gods to begin with. So, Gold Mask interprets all of this information, and finally realizes the truth of everything (the fly in the oinment) that's happened when you reveal the secret piece of the puzzle to him that Marika is Radagon and thus a flawed and imperfect being since both halves of the same god can't even agree on what's right and are at conflict (Marika destroys the ring while Radagon simultaneously tries to repair it) thus leading to this whole mess. He concludes that none of this would have happened or even been possible if the gods were actually the infallible and flawless beings they're supposed to be, but they're not. They're emotional and flawed just like humanity, and so since the gods can't be trusted to be perfect and above flaw the only other option is to remove their ability to affect the world in harmful ways based on their whims and he somehow uses this revelation to either discover or create the rune of mending, which if used is a new addition to the Elden Ring itself when applied and is depicted as a glowing shield around the Elden Ring, basically a visual metaphor for a protective barrier that will now prevent any tampering or meddling with the Elden Ring and thus prevent any god or ruler from changing the rules of reality because they got mad or sad about something. In theory, this solves the problem and prevents events like the shattering from ever happening again. Some people interpret this more sinisterly, like that it removes anyone's free will to enforce order in a tyrannical way, but I guess that depends on your point of view and whether or not you think the Golden Order is inherently good or bad. Ranni wanted to free herself of this influence, for instance, so she'd find it bad, for example. But that's ultimately for you to decide for yourself. tl:dr: Gold Mask learns the previous sysadmin (a shitty parent with a major case of the magical DID variety) sucks and broke everything by being allowed to mess with the OS's core file structure. He fixes this by taking away their administrator rights and makes the system files read-only so that nobody (including any new admins) can fuck with it anymore. "

A streamer I watch (PatStaresAt) was able to suss out Radahn before the Ansbach quest because of Freyja’s presence and Gaius

I think the consumable item Golden Vow implies that people traveled to the Shadowlands from the Lands Between, before Marika veiled that realm and when the Erdtree/Golden Order was already established. Its description reads "The incantation serves as a rite that honors the comrades who placed their faith in the distant Erdtree and gave their lives in the crusade." That makes me think that the crusade happened after she established herself as Queen of the Erdtree (re: the Blessing of Marika) and the veiling happened towards the end of the crusade, and would explain why there are figures from the base game/Leyndell areas in the Shadowlands - they all went there with Messmer to fight in the crusade under the belief that it was to honor the Erdtree/Marika/the Golden Order, etc. but they got trapped there when she decided to lock & hide that entire realm away.

Snakes are in the middle of everything here. There's even a snake skin in Merika's village. Maybe they are somehow related to godhood? Something that Rykard and the Gloam-Eyed Queen maybe tried to emulate later? Some black flame spells are spiraling; the Godslayer Sword is full of spirals, spirals, and double spirals, like mating snakes or the Caduceus. I don't know I might be wrong here haha

One thing that I don’t see enough people remark upon is that becoming a god through the Gate of Divinity does not have any necessary relation to the Elden Ring. When Miquella becomes a god through the Gate of Divinity this has no relation to the Elden Ring, which at this time is still within Marika’s petrified body. This does not mean Marika’s divinity was not becoming a vessel of the Elden Ring. I think it was, but I think the Elden Ring is less important to godhood in general than people tend to assume. I think it’s a common view that the Elden Ring controls the rules of the cosmos as such, but how then can Miquella become the god of a new Age totally without it? Personally, I believe the Elden Ring simply represents Order. Miquella’s is an age of the original kindness of gold without Order, which I understand to be identical to unalloyed gold, and therefore without the Elden Ring. And godhood in itself does not have any necessary relation to Order or the Elden Ring.

I just realized Godfrey literally has a Divine Beast on his back and his personal guard are called Crucible Knights & use Aspects of the Crucible; OF COURSE the Shadow Lands weren't sealed at the moment she became a God. The Hornsent probably helped her fight the Giants and all & she just erased them from history.

The DLC really helps to better understand two specific bosses. The commander at the eclipse fort, and the commander in inner aeonia. We never knew if the commander in Caelid served under Radahn or Miqella, but I think it’s almost certain now that he is first and foremost, an agent of Miqella. That is why he makes recovering the broken needle and protecting it his priority. It would also explain why BOTH of them can summon spirits, which is something most definitely “of” the shadow realm, where Miqella has planned to or already gone to when we face them in the base game.

I’m fairly convinced Radahn and Miquella agreed to a fight because of the Valhalla motif going on. Malenia and her clean rot knights have a very heavy Valkyrie aesthetic going on. Valkyries would bring warriors who died in battle to Valhalla. The shadow keep is also likely the Helphen that is mentioned on the helphen steeple. The aesthetics of the show keep and the weapon are VERY similar. There’s A LOT more that points in this direction but if you want more watch quelaags video on it.

I think you guys are WAAAY overthinking the Promised Consort thing. Think of it more like how a small child, who doesn't quite understand what romantic love is yet, say they want to marry their older sibling or parent because they love them and that must be how it works in their innocent mind. Miquella is pretty much proven in this DLC to not only have the eternal body of a child, but the mind of one too - always optimistic but doesn't understand what he does is harmful. Miquella said "promise me you'll be my consort in my age of kindness" to which a much older Radahn likely answered "awww sure kid" without meaning it. Then Melania took the "promise" extra serious for her brother, Radahn likely reacted with a big "HELL NO, IM NOT ACTUALLY DOING THAT" and that led to Melania attacking Caelid specifically to kill Radahn and bring his soul to Miquella (which she failed at)

I kinda have a crackhead theory that goes along with your idea that the greater will exists somewhere out in space. Both Ranni and Miquella at their ascension to godhood talk about "1000 year journeys" What if something about becoming god allows one to change the trajectory through space of the celestial body they become the god of? We know from a few sources that the cosmos directly effects the meta physics and "destiny" in the lands between. Maybe when Marika became god she sent the planet in a trajectory away from the greater will? Maybe that's why the fingers eventually lost contact with the greater will? Maybe that's the betrayal?

Absolutely just my own personal opinion here & I admit I don't know every single detail - but my understanding of the DLC's lore implications, thus far, re: the Hornsent, the Shamans, and Marika's background...is that the Shamans were a minority group, Marika's people, living in the Shadowlands (which I think may have been called something different, pre-veiling) who were targeted by the Hornsent and forcibly put through the "jarring" process (because of their inherent abilities, perhaps) - all the while being told by their torturers that "Oh, this is such a great honor, get in the f*cking jar, don't you want to be a saint???". But it isn't actual sainthood. It's the false promise of mercy from the person torturing and killing you. I don't believe Marika was ever put through that process at all - I believe she escaped that process by doing whatever she needed to do to achieve godhood (perhaps that was part of the 'seduction', that she convinced the Hornsent NOT to jar her, by making an alliance somehow or promising them something). This was all done so that she could ultimately wreak absolute revenge on the Hornsent in the name of her people, however she could manage it and at any cost. But I don't think anyone escaped or came out of the jarring process. Thematically, it would take power away from that part of the story, if there was a way to "get through that" - just like Godwyn's death, it's more emotionally impactful if the consequences of that process are inexorably permanent. The Omen curse does make a lot of sense to me, actually, as the Hornsent response to her betrayal/crusade against them - it's a way for the Hornsent to get their own revenge on her in a very personal, profound way. She would be unable to continue on the legacy and existence of her own people, because her progeny would be cursed to literally embody the memory, beliefs, and death of the people who she hated the most (horns & what they represented to the Hornsent, what came before her reign, the Crucibles, etc.). She wouldn't ever be able to recapture the joy, safety, and love of that little Shaman village, her Home, her Family, because that curse would be physically and figuratively embedded into the bodies of any children she'd have after that event took place. That's why I place Messmer/Melina as her firstborn children (haven't decided why they're janked up the way they are, maybe that's a result of being born from union with her Other Half, like Miquella and Melania) - to me, Morgott/Mohg are the children born next & immediately cursed after the crusade was already long underway. That's why Godwyn was so special to her, because he may have been seemingly the first child of hers absolutely free of any curse, a child she didn't have to instantly hide away, her golden hope that represented everything she wanted to get back - family, home, her golden order devoid of death. That's why his death was so world-shatteringly devastating to her...no matter what she does, she cannot escape the horror and memory of her people's fate. (Also, the revelations about the Shamans and the Jars is treated as a much much weightier thing, in the DLC, than the omen curse is treated in the base game. So I feel like the former was the primary reason for her crusade, and the latter was a further devastating personal consequence of it.)

Messmer might know what being a Tarnished is because they were created at the same time as his crusade started. His whole ethos, mission statement, purpose, is to burn in his flame all those stripped by the Grace of Gold. The only reason why he'd constantly repeat that, and his fire knights too, is if that's what the Hornsent are. Stripped by the Grace of Gold, marked for extermination. So Marika removing the Grace of the hornsent could be the same moment she stripped Godfrey of Grace. But she told Godfrey ahead of time, to know, and prepare for his Long March. The Tarnished were hounded after all.

People need to accept Gloam Eyed Queen wasn’t that important to the narrative as they think. She was just a footnote it Marika’s rise to power. That’s all.

I think Ranni's removal of the elden ring from the world is still one of the best endings we can reasonably get

with the Radahn/Miquella vow, personally i belive the vow happened pre-Miquella abandoning the golden order. We know Miqella originally was a follower of the golden order as well as being an empyrean, i could easily see his early aspirations to godhood coming in the terms of succeeding Marika as the god of the golden order, rather than bringing in his new age we see in the dlc. This squares well with Radahn, being a big fan of the golden order and specifically looking up to its Elden lords, wearing lions and his red hair proudly to symbolise Godfrey and Radagon. Knowing these two things, ive felt that what makes the most sence is a golden order fundimentalist Miquella making a vow with Radahn that once Miquella becomes a god, Radahn would be his consort. At the time of the vow this meant Miquella following in his mothers footsteps as the god of the golden order, and Radahn happily agreed, glad to follow in the footsteps of his idols and become the Elden lord. However Miquella eventually abandons the golden order in his attempts to cure Malenia, doing his unalloyed gold and haligtree shananigans. Radahn, however, would likely not stand for this subersion of the golden order and no longer wished to be Miquellas consort if he would not be following in the footsteps of his idols. Come the shattering and Miquella sets his plans into motion, being: 1. send Malenia to kill Radahn 2. charm Mogh and have Mohg defile him with his omen blood so he can enter the dlc area 3. have Malenia kill Mohg (pure speculation of what she would of done if she didnt meet a stalemate with Radahn and she wasnt in recovery at the haligtree till we find her) 4. put Radahns soul in Mohgs charmed corpse, allowing him to be forced to follow Miqella's will, and become his consort the only problem being Malenia's falure to kill Radahn, which we conveniently do for her, as well as then killing Mohg, allowing Miquella to move forward with his plan anyway, reviving Radahn as his "promiced" consort. Fulfilling it not in the spirit of the vow, but just to the word.

It took two years to make, no way it was always Radahn…they retconned their own lore there is nothing besides the whisper that can’t even be verified bc we only have their word for it so, it could have been anything there is no dialogue…a lot of signs pointed to Godwyn tho…

I think one of the best indicators that Melina is the gloam eyed queen is that we lose torrents whistle when we become the lord of frenzied flame and torrent is notably terrified in the abyssal woods

As someone whose favorite character is Godwyn It wasn’t an expectation for him to be in the DLC, but it was a hope And when you imply that with his prayer he actually referred to Godwyn as “O brother” and nowhere in the base game does it say it show Radahn’s relation to Miquella, that’s why so many people like myself were hoping it was him I saw the Golden Rays of hair open from the gate and truly thought Godwyn was back, and look the lore and implications are great but speaking from personal experience I think why some people were disappointed, was because the reveal that there wasn’t anything more to Godwyn, for the people that wanted more, was just, a letdown Otherwise tho the DLC was amazing I can’t stress the beauty and dedication fromsoft put into this game But that’s why for me at least I was slightly disappointed by the end Plus some people get stuck on bosses like myself and don’t feel happy when they’re done More so just happy the annoying chore is over with Hand in hand those 2 didn’t leave the best initial taste in my mouth

I could listen to these two discuss Elden Ring lore forever

I think Radahn may have had a similar experience to us when evaluating Miquella's character. Before the dlc's release, the general perception of Miquella was that he was truly good. Sure, there was talk of him possibly manipulating people, as the description of the bewitching branch implies, but there was far more information pointing out his compassionate nature. It's possible radahn truly believed in the age Miquella would bring about, but when he discovered just how Miquella compelled such affection, he wished to prevent its epoch. This may also explain why Malenia had to resort to such drastic measures, and why Radahn fought so violently against the rot--even in madness.

The only real motivations we know od radahns are that he was bored of earthly challenges to the point where he challenged the stars. We also know he idolized the prior elden lords. To die in battle would provide proof of a sufficient challenge and then to become elden lord even after that? Sounds like his motivations to a tee. I cant imagine that he would disagree to that offer from miquella.

I really feel like they were setting up Godwyn’s resurrection with the castle sol eclipse stuff

Given that the fatal flaw with Miquella’s plan is that it completely rejects free will, Radahn being charmed makes perfect sense, he used Mohg, it would actually be kinda weird if he didn’t also use Radahn. Radahn’s fatal flaw being stagnation and loyalty to the golden order, it also doesn’t mesh with his character to be on Miquella’s side the whole time. The simplest story is young Radahn was charmed or just convinced to make a vow, then went back on the promise later in life, and Malenia came to collect on the debt and force him to comply. Pretty neat story, honestly, fits thematically and in the characters of Radahn and Miquella.

i got spoiled on radahn but i didnt believe it i thought people were memeing to hide actual spoilers... i still dont really like it feels like the final boss is recylcled even tho i can see the model and animations clearly aren't. I feel like I'm getting Godefroy'd by the DLC...

I wonder if Godfrey wouldve been against the crusades against the hornsent considering two of his children were omens and how the crucible knights served him. Maybe he was banished, so he'd be out of the way.

I would be beyond shocked if from soft out of nowhere added like a 3 to 5 GB patch, adding some content or a cave or two just to add to that lore regarding why it was rahdan

Radahn said «you will have me as consort only over my dead body» and miquella locked in

This is gonna be good! Can’t wait!

My headcanon goes like this. The Numen are from 'another world'. They arrived upon the world on which the Lands Between, Lands of Shadow (our world) exists via giant spaceships that appear to us as massive rune-covered coffins. The Numen were not like the Hornsent that occupied this region, and as a result their special powers appeared as magic, occult etc. As a result, they were called Shaman. They relocated to a village of their own, a place where they could prosper without fear of being attacked, farmed into jars etc because one of their traits as Shaman/Numen was an inherent ability to graft or be grafted. They were 'built different', more pliable, more compliant. Down the line, this could explain Godrick's ability to graft. And if all of Marika's descendents are also Numen, could explain their own great powers. The Hornsent staged a genocide against what was clearly a more powerful race. And wiped out all but one, in the shape of Marika. Anything of a high enough technology would surely be consided magic, think of Sam Raimi's Army of Darkness as an easy reference. Or, similarly Back to the Future. The Numen must have seemed so beyond anything supernatural the locals had ever witnessed. But at this stage, they were still a minority, easily squashed - or at least the small Shaman tribe that did not descend as Nox to the eternal cities were. Messmer would be Marikas weapon of mass destruction and tool of revenge for this crime. *It's half the fun isn't it, coming up with our own theories?* I assume the whole ascend to godhood parable, their true abilities etc not being obvious or might just not have occurred to them yet, or become fully realised reminds me of how Superman was just a 'regular man' on his home planet, it was only once he arrived on Earth where his abilities were fully realised eg. his planet had a super oppressive gravity endowing him with the ability to fly on ours.

If Miquella discarded his flesh in the Shadow realm then whose body is in the cocoon???

My takeaway of when the lands of shadow were sealed away was at the beginning of the Elden ring rule when Marika began purging out omens, misbegotten and the fire giants. In my head cannon I understand the lands of shadow as a actual piece of land that was shared with the lands between before being sealed away. So I understood it as Marika sending Messmer and his army to that specific region where the crucible mainly resided and her childhood sinners lived. And during that crusade it was sealed away, and thus separated from the lands between.

I bet Radahn's half of the "vow" was saying "over my dead body" to Miquella's offer. and Miquella was like "deal"

Maybe hot take, but, the idea that it's "poorly done" for there to be no foreshadowing in the base game of Radahn returning as Miquella's consort doesn't really jive well with FromSoft's history of DLC integration. Did anyone "predict" that we'd be fighting Gael and obtaining the Dark Soul in DS3? Did anyone "predict" that we'd be fighting Manus in the abyss in DS1? Did anyone predict we'd be fighting the Orphan of Kos in the Old Hunters? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no, no one knew any of those things were coming and only afterwards did any of it start to make any amount of sense. I think because of the unusual gap between Elden Ring's release and the DLC release we've all had time to form such strong headcanons and a sense of confidence that we clearly know how all the lore is supposed to work, so this reveal is giving everyone an ego check. Moral of the story: stop expecting to predict FromSoft DLC. It's never worked before, it's never going to work in the future. Yeah Radahn 2 was unexpected, but again, looking at all the context the DLC gave us, it makes sense now. There were pieces of the puzzle missing, and now they've been put into place. I really don't think this is a point we should be holding against the DLC in the slightest. Edit: also, all of the other FromSoft games I’ve played already had their DLC out when I played the first time, so I did everything up to the final area, then did DLC when I was appropriately leveled, then beat the final boss. Everyone is thinking of Miquella’s story as the conclusion to the DLC, but it’s just a side story, by definition. It’s just another tale of gods and their ambitions that ultimately culminates yet again in our confrontation with the Elden Beast. Given that context, Radahn returning shouldn’t be seen as “the final fight”, rather it’s just one more part of the whole story. So the idea that it comes out of nowhere shouldn’t really be a mark against it, just the same way Fortisax being what you fight inside Fia’s dream shouldn’t be considered “bad” because it’s unpredictable, nor Astel showing up right before getting to Ranni, nor any of the other surprising and unpredictable things that are all over this story.

This was such an excellent discussion!

Anyone else think it’s interesting that there’s no mention of Radahn fighting in the crusade, despite him having strong connections to some of the major players and there being a few implications Rykard was there (the Virgins, Tanith most likely being from the LoS)? It makes me wonder if he was prevented from going because the higher-ups knew it was at least partially an excuse to dump some unwanted people in a dungeon, but from his POV he was held back from seeking glory in war and that’s part of why he’s so obsessed with it

17:56 He had to rip the bandaid off I respect it😭

Uh unfortunately nope from me, i just beat Messmer and dont want anything to be spoiled. Ill watch it in a week or so. But leaving comment for engagement and all that which helps you tubers :D But i would really want to hear some lore discussion because i cant stop thinking about what i came across in a small village yesterday before going to sleep... i think i even dreamed a bit of it XD

miquella charms people with his great rune, he broke his rune and can't charm anymore (only in the second fase when he is a full god), so radhan was not beeing controled , he was fulfilling his vow he made with miquella.

I came to a similar conclusion about the golden threads Marika is claiming from the body. It looks to me like she is reaching into the womb of some deceased creature and stealing the golden hairs from the foetus of an unborn successor to the previous lord, (which resonates with themes in bloodborne for example). I tried to determine what the previous lord is, but it’s just too difficult based on that short clip we get to see. It looks potentially like the same skin that the godskin use for their apparel. Speculation here, but what if Melina as the gloam eyed queen aided Marika by killing the previous god(s) with her army of apostles, and then when Marika ascended to godhood she cast a seal of suppression on Melina’s eye, just in the same way that she did with Messmer? We know the apostles are an aspect of the crucible, so this would line up, as when Marika seized power it was at a time when the crucible was dominating the culture of the lands between. Also, hearing your thoughts about the timeline of Elden lords - it makes me realise one reason why we struggle so much is because we are experiencing the cycle of lordship, which has gone through countless iterations and complexities, from the point of view of this final iteration where Marika has deliberately ruined the status quo of lordship to encourage the tarnished to define themselves. It’s like trying to explain the story of dark souls from only ever playing dark souls 3, which did actually happen to me as it was the first I played in the series. I found it very hard to know what was going on. I got an impression of a deep history, but it was largely inscrutable. If Elden ring was a series like dark souls, then Elden ring 1 would be the lordship of dragons coming to an end, and being superseded by our lordship. We would be introduced to ideas of gold, the greater will, and the structure of the world. Elden ring 2 would develop the theme of outer gods, with different lords coming to the throne. Only in Elden ring 3 would we finally get the age of marika, and then we would clearly see how she breaks the mould of previous lordships with her actions. So we are effectively playing a trilogy stacked and compressed into one game which is what makes the Elden ring lore so amazing but also so mysterious. Really love your lore discussions! Hope there are many more!

I think the vow was much vaguer. Radahn maybe said in passing «oh I wish for a gentler world after our victory» and Miquella tunnel-sighted on it and went «yeah, bet, that's consent».

I think Messmer and Malenia are the two firstborns of Marika and Radagon before her marriage to Godfrey. Both were then disposed of and used by Marika for their visions of fire, snakes and GEQ. Messmer was put in the land of shadow to burn down the Hornsent culture and purge it, while also being erased from history because of his connections to the serpents. Melina was burned, bodyless and removed (in name) from history because of her connections to GEQ (whose impact is still remembered), but is still put to use by Marika in aiding the Tarnished burning down the Erdtree, bringing in a new lord and killing a god. Radagon and GEQ can't be Melina and Messmer's parents because unless Marika is GEQ it makes no sense for Melina to say her MOTHER is in the erdtree. It also makes sense that Marika is called a strumpet by those who know of Messmer (and Melina) because to them they're bastards. Lastly, I believe GEQ is a result of the betrayal of the hornsent in some way because of her sword's spiral design, the empyrean grandham and GEQ being an empyrean.

Idk man, its just Occams razor, hearing both of them rationalizing how Radahn was NOT charmed only made my position stronger, Miquella was indeed mindcontroling him, its simply what makes the most sense.

Praise the Yggdrasil podcast! Excited to nerd out ☝🏼🤓

Appreciate your guys content 💯💯