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Liquid AIR batteries revealed with ability to provide power for longer than lithium
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Күн бұрынLiquid AIR batteries revealed with ability to provide power for longer than lithium
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@nickmcconnell1291 8 ай бұрын
Tony Seba calculated that to store energy for the worst time of year anywhere in the US, there would need to be up to four days of energy storage max. Some areas less than two days.
@kamra99a 8 ай бұрын
Much of the US is covered with clouds for several weeks at a time. Unless you build an unreasonable number of power lines, you will not be able to use solar in much of the country. Wind is not going to fill the gap either, as it can be windless for many days. Tony is wrong. No calculations required.
@liammullan2197 8 ай бұрын
Yeah nick… reply guy knows much better than experts, as usual
@sunspot42 8 ай бұрын
@@kamra99a Solar generates so much energy already in the southwest prices there on the spot market are frequently going negative - they'll pay you to take it away. And we've probably only deployed a fraction of the solar power that'll ultimately be deployed in the southwest. The availability of free power for hours a day makes building transmission lines a lot more economically viable than it would be otherwise. We're going to see a glut of powerlines built over the next two decades, both west to east - providing the midwest and east coast with power for several hours after local sunset - but also south to north, bringing solar power from the sunbelt up to cities like Chicago and New York.
@Sean_S1000 8 ай бұрын
Any form of energy storage which can use the excess energy without the need to shut down or ramp down plants or turbines is beneficial, with compressed liquid air the vessels are already mass produced and easy to obtain and the cost to expand the plant storage capacity with little comparative cost is a bonus. If they hit their claimed 60-75% conversion rate then it's worth operating, obviously there is less but, when the losses allowing clean operation it's not a concern.
@CrownRider 8 ай бұрын
The efficiency of liquid air energy storage is about 60%. Maybe interesting when there is a huge surplus of electric energy.
@ccibinel 8 ай бұрын
Replacing baseload with peeker plants due to renewables causes the grid to be dirtier. Any cheap storage technology is worthwhile - losses are nearly irrelevant as scaling solar in Australia is very easy and cheap.
@aitorbleda8267 8 ай бұрын
Not a bad idea but the compressors won't last long in many environments.. so won't work everywhere. Way better than hydrogen,but I prefer redox batteries, or even lifepo
@rayjohnson8875 8 ай бұрын
In my opinion, definitely the online authority on EV and Hybrid.
@zoltanboros8963 8 ай бұрын
Interesting and promising idea. In Europe you definitely need seasonal storage, as solar power in winter is 10% of summer. Panels could go cheaper, but there's no place for such oversize. However, wind can help to reduce the storage needs.
@Ryan-ff2db 8 ай бұрын
You may only need 12 hours of storage in Australia but if solar is going to be used for most of the rest of the world, it will need to be more. Even in sunny California during the winter months a solar array sized at 2 times what is required will still need a generator or grid power in December through February. Battery back-up just isn't enough.
@chillfluencer 8 ай бұрын
Most of the rest of the world = 4.6 billion Asia 1.4 billion Africa 667 million South and Central America 127.5 million Mexico That's 7/8 of the world.
@markthomasson5077 8 ай бұрын
It has been calculated at five hours
@Ryan-ff2db 8 ай бұрын
@@markthomasson5077 What has been calculated at five hours?
@markthomasson5077 8 ай бұрын
@@Ryan-ff2db …the time for the amount of storage needed. I guess in Aussie land it’s not so difficult, here in UK a fair bit more I suspect
@Ryan-ff2db 8 ай бұрын
@@markthomasson5077 I'm still not sure what the 5 hours means but I agree the UK would be difficult for solar. Uk does have very good wind resources though.
@passdasalt 8 ай бұрын
You are underplaying the real value of this technology. It is relatively cheap, safe, and low tech. Even in Adelaide, it would be beneficial as it's getting to the point where we are switching off some roof top solar systems so as not to overload the grid. If we had this, we could capture that energy instead of wasting it. It could be used to create green hydrogen or simply help bring down the cost of electricity during high demand. I think it's genius.
@petewright4640 8 ай бұрын
"Only 6 to 8 hrs in the day in winter in some places". I live in the uk. 6 - 8hrs would be great. Gray and rainy is the norm.
@frank4425 8 ай бұрын
Hi Sam. Here's why seasonal energy storage makes sense. Imagine a solar power plant that produces more than sufficient energy during the summer. The energy supply is greater than the demand. But during winter, the solar power plant produces less energy than the demand. How do you solve this in a way that does not require solar to be supplemented by gas plants or other non-renewable power generators? One approach would be to add more solar panels so the winter output also matches the demand. But this would increase the energy wasted during the summer seasons, for the energy generated during summer seasons would far exceed both the energy demand and the available energy storage solutions. Unless, you have cheap seasonal energy storage that could store the excess energy produced in the summer and release it during the winter
@JakobFischer60 8 ай бұрын
In Germany we have the most energy oversupply in winter when strong winds supply more electricity than we can handle. In summer, there is a shortage every night.
@frank4425 8 ай бұрын
@@JakobFischer60 So seasonal energy storage would make a lot of sense there
@frankszanto 8 ай бұрын
Adelaide (South Australia) relies on the interconnector to Victoria. Yes, renewables may provide 60%, but that still means 40% from fossil fuel. I just checked the NEM dashboard, at 5.15pm EST = 4pm ACT. Demand was 1.4GW, and 340 MW was being imported from Victoria, i.e. brown coal. Gas was 611MW, and solar and wind were 250MW and 280MW respectively. Solar radiation is almost at its peak - solstice in 10 days. Adelaide illustrates that 60% renewables is quite possible, but getting to 100% is extremely difficult.
@nigelkempson8746 8 ай бұрын
Sorry Viking but you have missed the most important point. This is not a new technology, the engineering involved in liquifying air and storing air is well understood, we have been doing it at scale for decades for other industrial purposes. All the components are available "off the shelf" with no rare minerals required. The "round trip" efficiency of storing energy in this way is around 70% and this is comparable with many other energy storage technologies. The risk of investing in liquid air energy storage is that some clever sod might invent something better/cheaper/ more efficient. This risk could be mitigated with a feed-in tariff arrangement - just as was given to all investments in solar/wind/nuclear etc.
@glennhenderson9243 Күн бұрын
Plus you can scrub the air and take out pollutants as part of the process.
@stopscammingman 7 ай бұрын
I'd love to see these flying off the production lines!
@ccibinel 8 ай бұрын
Australia is basically a best case scenario for renewables with minimal storage. The challenge in places with substantial seasons like Canada is we need baseload or long duration storage. PS: The entire province of BC has run almost entirely on renewables (hydro power) for 50+ years. Ironically the ratio is dropping as we need more natural gas to supplement trendy hydro/wind.
@leroyharder4491 8 ай бұрын
I think we are lucky. I kept daily records from different regions of bc. As expected, in summer we are sunny, in winter it is windy. Hydro is a perfect partner. When renewables provide lots, Hydro can shut down turbines and essentially become energy storage. One can probably adapt some hydro systems so they can do pumped storage as well. We will probably not need as much hydro with time, so it creates flexibility in water use. We could use it for agriculture, enhance fisheries/wildlife etc.
@ccibinel 8 ай бұрын
@@leroyharder4491 BC is lucky but most northern climates (even europe) are not. We can export some power but not enough for the entire northwest. Turning down hydro only makes sense if the reservoirs are getting low. Hydro does not change quick enough for grid stability so some other storage is needed with renewables.
@stopscammingman 7 ай бұрын
Definitely want to stay updated on this one : )
@mkashay 8 ай бұрын
If you are talking about solar as providing the bulk of the renewables, storage does need to be much more than 12 hours. It can be cloudy for weeks at a time.
@freeheeler09 8 ай бұрын
Kas, that’s where better transmission lines come in. It will always be windy or sunny somewhere. With enough batteries and long distance transmission, we’d only need a few days of storage, even during winter storms.
@joelado 8 ай бұрын
It is just a matter of cost. Can they make it cheaper than LFP? The less expensive energy storage device will eventually win the market. What are the losses? Your illustrations showed above ground storage tanks. How well insulated are they to ambient heat? Wouldn't it be better to store insulated tanks below ground where the temperature is 52°F/11.1°C thereby limiting your ambient temperature losses. I'm glad people are looking for more ways to store energy. It means so much for the success of renewables.
@mb-3faze 8 ай бұрын
The liquified air/nitrogen storage to electricity generation cycle is not particularly efficient, especially compared to BESS. However it's a pretty simple and well known technology - so it could have a place in the commercial energy storage.
@JakobFischer60 8 ай бұрын
These tanks are industrial standard for nitrogen and are insulated by a vaccum double-layer steel container. These are quite well in insulating.
@ramonpunsalang3397 8 ай бұрын
Where feasible, you can do away with steel tanks and use caves (natural or man-made) underground cavities. Just ensure they are sealed against leaks.
@JakobFischer60 8 ай бұрын
I don't think natural caves are suitable to hold -200°C cold liquid. It will freeze the whole area.@@ramonpunsalang3397
@Brutus4048 8 ай бұрын
Should be good for Canada, specially in the winter.
@philiptaylor7902 8 ай бұрын
It just has to be cheaper than hydrogen.
@radart6037 8 ай бұрын
Indeed and there are many options that are cheaper.
@netgnostic1627 8 ай бұрын
Anchorage, Alaska is an example. In winter, it doesn't get enough hours of sunlight to run on solar energy - less than 6 hours per day. 10:08 am to 3:44pm. So I'd predict that wind and geothermal will be needed to keep Alaskans warm in the winter.
@aitorbleda8267 8 ай бұрын
How about connected power grids?
@jeffgrimston4565 8 ай бұрын
Adelaide sees a bit more sunshine than Manchester ... 😢
@eclecticcyclist 8 ай бұрын
You don't need a big river for pumped storage hydroelectricity because the water only circulates, you only a river for conventinal hydroelectricity.
@eclecticcyclist 8 ай бұрын
@@johnsmith-cw3wo No but here in Nort Wales and in many places there are old quarry pits and narrow valleys in mountainous regions where rainfall is high which are ideal
@eclecticcyclist 8 ай бұрын
@@johnsmith-cw3wo So a big river won't help you build pumped storage hydro.
@eclecticcyclist 8 ай бұрын
@@johnsmith-cw3wo That's your problem, but it still has nothing to do with my point that you don't need a big river for pumped hydro
@bigalsprojects 8 ай бұрын
What is the conversion efficiency vs other storage methods? without that info hard to speculate if this method can be a practical choice.
@ccibinel 8 ай бұрын
About 70% but the real question is always cost per kwh stored. Intermittent renewable electricity is cheap - making it stable isn't. Liquid metal batteries and pumped hydro are also in the same ballpark. Flow, Lithium and Sodium are still very expensive and the benefit of higher efficiency is actually minimal.
@frank4425 8 ай бұрын
Agreed with above comment. The cost efficiency is more important than energy efficiency. That and environmental impact caused by mining for the materials
@dwmcever 8 ай бұрын
NOPE, and yes I designed several Cryogenic Air Separation plants. Pretty sure the laws of Physics have not changed since I retired.
@vesalaasanen2158 8 ай бұрын
Australia is very special place since the population density is 3 people / km2. For example China has 152. This makes it more difficult to build infra for energy transmission since in many places energy cannot be generated where it's used. I guess in many places offshore wind is pretty much only viable clean option just because of population density. I'm living in Finland, where during the winter solar provides pretty much zero energy. A lot of different solutions are needed to reach net zero.
@radart6037 8 ай бұрын
Compressed air storage is also a simple storage solution.
@JoeyBlogs007 8 ай бұрын
You need more than 12 hours. If you have days of low to zero wind and solar, you will need to cover for that. You will always need battery storage and fossil fuel backup systems, including nuclear.
@patdbean 4 ай бұрын
6:02 I am begining to think that sam dose not understand what cold weather really is. Here in the uk back on boxing day 1962 it starting snowing and overnight the tempreture droped below 0C. A blocking high had setteled over the UK there was almost no wind and the tempreture stayed at 0C or below zero until MARCH! So please! get this idea out of your head that we "only need a few days of storage"
@MrGMawson2438 8 ай бұрын
At this time of year in the UK its 5 past 4 PM an its started to get dark
@chillfluencer 8 ай бұрын
...and wind stopped as well.
@LouDeVere 8 ай бұрын
Hah! 16:05 would be the time!
@philiptaylor7902 8 ай бұрын
Yup, we’d need at least a week of storage, that’s getting on for 6 Petawatt hours! (Well maybe a bit less given nuclear and transfers). That an awful lot of batteries.
@JoeyBlogs007 8 ай бұрын
Sounds like a lot of hot air.
@JoeyBlogs007 8 ай бұрын
Too inefficient. You can't beat battery storage.
@petewright4640 8 ай бұрын
Interestingly technology. Video a bit thin on technicals like how does it work, features to improve efficiency, what is that efficiency and other pros and cons such use of off-the-shelf pipes, pumps etc and no scarce minerals.
@stevey_z 8 ай бұрын
Tony seba said most large systems will need at most 4 days not seasonal
@sundog486 8 ай бұрын
2:38 "Heat is applied to restore the liquid into a gas" . I hope not!
@MrGMawson2438 8 ай бұрын
Very interesting cheers mate
@nickmcconnell1291 8 ай бұрын
What is the energy loss cooling, maintaining that temperature, then reheating the air? What's the net loss?
@ccibinel 8 ай бұрын
60-70% round trip efficiency. Given cost, safety and mineral scarcity of lithium this still makes sense.
@theodoredesmarais4219 8 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@SwEDC 8 ай бұрын
Yes, sun comes up in March again
@willykang1293 8 ай бұрын
Of course there’re some places needed for some unusual ways of energy storage systems, because it’s unique location or purposes. But the percentage around the world might not so high. By the way, does Australia also import much of solar panels from China? Because China had made solar panels more than 90%, or 95%🤔, in the world? How much for that in percentage?🤔
@davidpickard9393 8 ай бұрын
Have you seen the Sun in the UK lately
@edwardlawrence5666 8 ай бұрын
Can’t you just rotate batteries for overnight use? The first third for the first 4 hours, then the next, and so on. Will these battery emplacements have to be build under ground to protect them from solar radiation, CMEs, etc?
@SanyLiew 8 ай бұрын
Protectism is not the cause of the problem and it certainly can help industrial got destroyed. But if you never solve the real cause why you need to protect the industry. Protection policy will be liability for the whole country.
@0ctatr0n 8 ай бұрын
I'm surprised you haven't looked at compressed carbon for storage, much better round trip efficiency as there's no need to super cool the carbon down to store it as a liquid. Only downside is it takes up a lot of land when it's decompressed into its large pillow like bladder. I suppose at sea it wouldn't matter as much
@phillip6083 8 ай бұрын
But carbon is not dangerous to store...
@0ctatr0n 7 ай бұрын
@@phillip6083 Well if it makes you feel any better, if the bladder busts or leaks people would die from asphyxiation
@phillip6083 7 ай бұрын
@0ctatr0n there are means to detect co²leaks but when oxygen goes boom it goes boom.
@0ctatr0n 7 ай бұрын
@@phillip6083 I think you're confusing air with oxygen, Air is made up of about 79% nitrogen, 20% air, 1% Argon, .04% Carbon, .002% Neon, .0005% Helium, .0002% Methane, .0001% Krypton and some water vapour. so it won't explode as the majority of it is made up of an inert gas.
@Bora_H 8 ай бұрын
Air liquefaction and turbine equipment all need skilled operators and maintenance. Batteries just.... sit there. It's hard to make the finances work here.
@keepitreal2902 8 ай бұрын
It's certainly renewable!
@stevebrugman3145 8 ай бұрын
If you have time could you do a piece on liquid CO2 which appears to be more efficient than liquid air
@philiptaylor7902 8 ай бұрын
You’ve got to catch your CO2 first.
@alberthartl8885 8 ай бұрын
This is a really interesting concept. But it has been slow to go to grid scale. One side benefit of this technology is that as the air is liquified, the CO2 is separated out. It could then be sequestered thus permanently removing it from the atmosphere.
@andreandre1051 8 ай бұрын
👍👍
@robertfonovic3551 8 ай бұрын
More battery news. 💤
@angrybee246 8 ай бұрын
"Liquid AIR batteries revealed with ability to provide power for longer than lithium" Sorry, buddy, but that statement is not valid! It would be best if you thought about hiring a proofreader.e
@mfanto1 8 ай бұрын
This guy screams im a vegan😂
@RickBeton 8 ай бұрын
Liquid air vs liquid CO2 vs cryogenic energy storage: these options are interesting alternatives. Matt compared them here kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fbmqm5t1nbXKYJ8.html
@MrGMawson2438 8 ай бұрын
Hello mate
@diehard200 8 ай бұрын
Shut up mate😊
@MrGMawson2438 8 ай бұрын
@@diehard200 Kiss my sweaty balls
@harrygroundwater2590 8 ай бұрын
You changed your profile photo
@harrygroundwater2590 8 ай бұрын
@@MrGMawson2438😂
@mfanto1 8 ай бұрын
😂😂😂 chineese dreams😂😂😂 The real development is for cold storage and reusing LNG temp when going back to gas state in an ofshore to onshore unloading
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