Correction. The carbine load was 45-55-405 with a cardboard wad used as filler. The original 1873 rifle load was 45-70-405. In 1880 it was found during the Creedmoor matches that the 485 grain Martini Henry bullet out performed the 405 grain Trapdoor bullet at longer ranges. So special trials guns were made in an experimental 45-80-500 cartridge and a new twist rate was also experimented with using a 5 groove rifling instead of the original three groove rifling. Further testing showed the extra 10 grains of powder wasnt needed and the 500 grain bullet matched and then would out perform the Martini Henry at the same ranges the 405 grain bullet wouldn’t. The 45-70-500 cartridge would be adopted in 1883 hence the 1884 model trapdoor. The carbines would maintain the use of the 45-55-405 cartridge until they were withdrawn from service. Other aspects of the 1884 model is it has an improved and heavier duty breech block as issues had been noted in the field of even the 405 cartridge guns had issues of blocks coming partially open during firing. The solution was simply to add more weight that had previously been removed. That improvement had been rolled into production in 1879 and finalized with the 1884 and latter 1888 models.

"And it smells great too." *wheezing seconds later*

KZfaq is such hypocrites. They won't allow videos on making ammo, but allow videos on how to pick locks and defeat home security systems.

I worked as a reenactor and we used these rifles for our time period. Definitely one of my favorite rifles ever. Easy to work on, dependable, and satisfying as hell to shoot.

Cant wait for the sequel series where Ian discusses all the technical details of "enjoying white powder"

I actually have one, handed down from my grandfather. Stamped on the butt is "stolen from Lubin Manufacturing CO" which was an early film studio in Philadelphia. Assuming my coal mining grandfather wasn't a thief, he bought it when the studio burned down.

Cool to see a video about shooting an older gun, and some of the history behind it

How could anyone see this and not think that firearms can be so wholesome?

Dude has great camera presence with Ian! Great work guys!

I definitely love seeing the two of you dressed like that. I don't know if it's the setting, the hat, (and I know it's a reenactment outfit) but I can't help but think of Fallout's NCR seeing you like that.

Thanks Ian, now my area of interest will get 2x as expensive as people realize how easy it is to shoot these... (I mean BP guns as a whole, not trapdoors).

Mines an 1873 with the Buffington sight made in 1884 and yes, they definitely shoot high. Mine started out as a rifle but some time after the guns were sold as surplus it was cut down into a carbine. The stock has a lot of wear but the barrel is in very good condition. An expert in these rifles told me it was very likely cut down just as soon as it purchased as surplus and used as someone's hunting/defense rifle which would explain the heavy wear on the stock and very little on the receiver and barrel. I have no idea how much of that is true but I absolutely love the gun. Loved this video! I wish there were more videos talking about and shooting these guns.

I have an 1873 that my father bought from an old farmer in Tennessee back in the 60's. He, unfortunately, had it re-blued. It is a beautiful gun. I used to pretend I was Danial Boone and play with it as a kid (Yea, I had no concept of history at the time..LOL).

As the owner of several antique firearms for which I have never even been in the same room as a live cartridge for them, this is very interesting.

Tom is a fine co-host! Happy to hear more of this is coming :)

There is something very satisfying about hearing that mechanism operate.

Guy "shot a Martini." Sure hope he wasn't at a crowded bar!😂

Really like the premise of this series, keep it up! I know it's not a military rifle, but an 1874 sharps would be appreciated to be seen, mostly because I want a Mathew Quigley impression from Ian 😄

My FIL has a trapdoor that his great great grandfather used in the Texas militia. He carved his initials into the stock and it's dated 1883 or 1884 I believe. It sat in a barn for decades and is pretty much rusted shut, it still has the bayonet attached.

I look forward to this. I've wanted a Martini Henry since i first saw Zulu on TV as a kid. And Ive wanted a magazine Vetterli since I ran across it in books.

Good idea for a series. Many people seem to equate black powder with muzzleloaders and percussion revolvers and that smokeless powder and metallic cartridges appeared on the scene at the same time. Loading and shooting black powder cartridges is fun and takes you back to the mid-to-late 1800s. Most modern firearms will happily accept black powder ammunition although I would not recommend it in an AR-15. I did have a friend who shot a Wild Bunch match with black powder ammo; his 1911 made it through 120 or so rounds with no malfunctions.

This makes me want to get my grandfather’s Springfield 1873 trapdoor rifle back to shooting condition. Apparently the firing pin is broken and has been since the 50s. Enjoyed the video.

More of this sort of thing please. I love this sort of era of weapons.

The Springfield Trapdoor is such a beautiful rifle, and I love the trapdoor mechanism it has. Just love this beautiful rifle.

Loved black powder ever since deer hunting as a kid. These odd transitional period guns right before modern cartridges are always super interesting.

I like the way the rifle goes "chuff" instead of "bang"!

Oh, this is going to be a fun series.

I recently discovered CapandBall's channel and I've been really enjoying his videos on these weapons. I'm really looking forward to this series.

Love this series. Black powder in any form is a lot of fun.

This looks like it's going to be a fun series. I look forward to seeing more.

Dude this is super cool! Can't wait for more of the series.

When I acquired an M1884 Carbine I was surprised how well the extractor works and how fun it is to shoot. No wonder Geronimo like to carry one of them!

A small error: According to the Pitman Notes (vol.3), the original load was .45-70-405 (that's a 405-grain bullet) for the 1873 rifle and carbine. Later, the carbine load was changed to 55 grains of powder because of the recoil, retaining the 405-grain bullet. Later, too, they changed the rifle load to use the 500-grain bullet because it had better external ballistics. All of the Manuals of Arms for the rifle after about 1880 refer to the 500-grain bullet for the rifle. As to shouting higher from the prone, note that the US manuals for this rifle by Captain Henry Blunt (1885 and 1889) specifically says that the dangerous space is increased because of the lower position. The sigh was set on the assumption the rifle was 56 inches from the ground. If you're going to do an episode on the Snider (and you should, they are perfect for this series), check out a book called "Historical Shooting with the Snider-Enfield Rifle" on any of the big book outlets.

I love my Trapdoor and handloading straight wall cases is probably the easiest round to load. Recoil is mild even though the .45/70 looks like an elephant round when compared to other rounds of the period.

Thank you. This sounds like a great series. Please keep it up.

When firing a original blackpowder firearm someone will usually comment"that things too old to fire safely". If the gun is inspected and is mechanically sound, use proper loads and your ok.

I am not really into either guns or military matters at all (other than, y’know, local contemporary european stuff) but forgotten weapons brings something interesting for me. Another way, through guns, their politics, manufacturing, lore etc. To put a really diverse pieces of history (old and new) into context and another brainpath for memorisation, learning motivation. Never fired a gun, might never do, not really something that i have a desire to do, but I am totally hooked on this -stuff-. Thank you very much for this content, well done and superinteresting. Almost always a pleasurable and meaningful ”waste” of time.

It looks like Ian's efforts to "gamer it up" gave him the edge!

My first rifle that I actually owned was a 58 caliber black powder carbine. Ended up trading it years later, as anyone will tell you, that was a huge mistake and, again, as everyone knows, I regret it to this day. I do now own an 1885 high wall. (45-70)

The carbine load has a 55 grain load of powder, .45-55-405. The military also adopted the .45-70-405 for the rifle.

First generation of breechloaders had often a different load for rifles and carbines. Sometimes cartidges had also different csse length.

Ian has had lots of guests who are good at shooting or who know a lot about guns. Tom is good at both of these but he's excellent at coming across on video and communicating, too.

As someone who owns a bunch of semi auto guns there is a part of me that longs to buy a bunch of black powder guns and do some turn of the century larping

A new series about accessible historical firearms? Take my money!

Definitely recommend the C&Rsenal episode on the US Kraig for details on the buffing ton and other sights the military was dealing with at the end of the 19th century. They couldn’t make up their minds at all

Safari shirts, wicked cool hats, and a sweet rifle. So dang good

Nice stuff. The whole Getting toasty" thing was so well known, that British troops in the Cape got into the habit of sewing a band of cowhide around the barrel to protect their hands when the Marini's heated up. I just love these early, first/second gen single shot breach loaders.

The high shooting is because the sight is down. These sights were meant to be raised. The "battle sight" is 278yds (why marksmen liked them). Flipping the sight up and elevator (if you want to call it that) down to the bottom, using the bottom sight (they have an aperture above an open) the sight is now 200yds, the lowest range. I made the mistake thinking the down "battle sight" was 100 or 200, and found out through Wolf's book that it was further. This model saw use by NG units in Cuba, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines during the Spanish American War, and the beginning of the Philippine American War.

First First American breech rifle to be issued in quantity

I shot some old black-powder rifles for fun when I was younger. After a while of shooting muzzle-loaders I got to play with a Martini-Henry. It was like night & day. I can imagine the feeling of the first armies equipped with breech loaders against those with muzzle loaders, they must have shot them to pieces. That & easily re-loading from cover must've been a real game changer.

I got to shoot a reproduction Trapdoor carbine at a indoor shooting gallery. It was fun shooting it and learning one interesting thing about it. The metal they used back in the 1870s were made of softer material that would expand from the heated gas and would get jammed in the chamber. This was what exactly happend at Little Big Horn to the cavalry troops as the had to pry the jammed casing out of the chamber with their knives. Also, it was a single shot which was a disadvantage compared to a magazine fed repeater like the Winchester.

Taylor Anderson's "Destroyermen" series features trapdoor conversion rifles as a useful weapon! That's how I learned about them

damn i luv trapdoor rifles, so iconic

Dude that hat is awesome! Tom is so cool.

10:26 That's some hefty fireball. Nice.

At this point, I have a Gras, a Martinie-Henry, and a Snider, and I've shot none of them because I don't the ammo.

That was a fun vid! Watch your hat, Smokey Bear McCollum. ,;p

Tom, you need a PROPER beard and mustache to compete with Ian in the timed trials. 🙄😂. Five O'Clock shadow just isn't going to cut it. 🐶

Fired an original 1873 rifle pretty extensively back in early 70s when you had to hunt/order the ammunition. The steady diet of factory W-W 405 smokeless ended up being a bit much, she got to puffing back at you and got retired.

Thanks for the wonderful video, I have always been found of the 45-70, I even had plans to build one years ago however the action I chose was too short to accommodate the round, my fellow gunsmith gave me the idea to chamber my chosen action in .444 Marlin, which I did. Made a great rifle out of the old Styer Straight Pull although the clip system was a pain in the rear, I modified the action so the clip didn't get lost and stayed in the rifle till you needed to feed her more ammo. I took the little rifle with the 18 inch barrel and open sights that I mounted on her out to the field and took a nice White Tail Buck with the gun. Took it to a gun show just to display, another dealer fell in love with the rifle and made me an offer I could not refuse so I let it go. I still had the reamers for the round and a second barrel blank, so I turned that down and built another .444 on an 1917 Enfield action, mounted it on a fiberglass stock, put a nice scope on it, took a deer with that one as well but again, at the next gun show I took a nice Dan Wesson Pistol pack with 4 barrels in trade across the board for my build. I had another smith who helped me with the builds, I gave him the reamers and gave up on my desire for a big bore rifle. Sort of wish I had kept my little carbine though

Love the campaign hat, Ian. I have one very similar to it. Obviously, you are a man of good taste.

Plus the Trapdoor Springfield weighs about 13 pounds which also helps mitigate recoil. With my 1873 Springfield I was shooting a cast 405 gr lead slug and using Accurate 5744, which is designed for low pressure rifles like the Trapdoor.

Looking forward to the rest of this series

This looks like a very interesting series. For additional content on each gun, how about including your preferred cleaning procedures on each unique model? When I was a teen in the 1960s a man down the road from my childhood home owned a new BP muzzle loader (Numrich Arms underhammer model) and took me out with him shooting a time or two. I really enjoyed him let me fire it a couple of times each time out. I remember some of the cleaning session afterward, when he started by unscrewing the breech and pouring boiling water down the barrel to get the worst of the residue out. He followed that with some kind of green liquid on patches, and I don't remember the rest. The different models each have their own best maintenance practices and I think that at least some of us would like to see them.

Tried some BP loads in my 1888 'ramrod' bayonet using a commercial cast 500gr bullet sized .458. I could hear them 'fluttering' downrange and saw perfect keyholes from the 2 that hit the target. A friend cast and sized some bullet .461. 3in groups!

Seems to me that smoothly, and quickly operating the bolt, etc provide an extremely enjoyable sensation, even greater than accurate firing of the weapon!

Just bought a Pedersoli Trapdoor carbine. Beautiful shooting rifle.

i really do love these style of weapons, they are very interesting and look like a lot of fun to shoot! One thing i would like to add, would be to see the accuracy of the rifles at longer ranges, just something to get a rough idea cause normally black powder rifles are associated with muzzle loaders, line firing and needing to be point blank range.

gunna be a legendary series

A younger reloaded this is great content

Can’t wait for the series. Wonderful series idea!

The difference between the original Springfield and the Trapdoor Springfield is enormous. And what a conversion!

When I saw the title in my ignorance I did not think ‘black powder cartridge’, my mind went to black powder muzzle loading long rifle. But then I thought of Ian doing a 2-gun match with muzzle loaders, and I had to hope it was about hitting targets and not timed shooting… AND THEN THEY DID TIMING WITH BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGES! I am ded. 😆👍

Mine was born in 1879. Fun rifle.

Enjoyed that , i load 45/70s with light smokeless loads. The old Lyman handbook has a good variety. I load the 50/70s with blackpowder or Pyrodex . The sights on the latter model trapdoors are nor compatible with my old eyes. The first trapdoor i bought came from Fox studios, they were disposing of some of their props. Watch the old westerns and you will see trapdoors disguised as flintlocks and other weapons. I always use cast bullets , much easier on the barrels. Thanks again Ian.

Great work and had NO PROBLEM with the sound.

Cool video and cool series idea, I'm looking forward to future episodes!

One of these is on my list to buy by the end of the year.

I have wanted a trapdoor springfield and a rolling block for a long time. 2 of my favorite rifles

I love my Trapdoor, had it for 20 years, was the reason for my first reloads, such a great rifle.

One of the reasons you are shooting high is that the sights are for the 500 grain bullet. The 405 grain bullet is likely a tad faster. Also the carbine load was reduced to 55 grains of powder due to excessive recoil and the wrist cracking. The original wrist of the Trapdoor model was long and skinny, and somewhat fragile.

I have a single round of original military 45-70. The one with the internal primer. Not sure what the loading is. It is in essentially new condition, no major corrosion on it. I'm always torn between just hanging onto it, or seeing if someone like Ian would like to tear it apart on camera........ I do miss when you would do these types of video's with Karl. You two always had good chemistry on camera, and great content together.

I have an 1870 Trapdoor in .50-70. It had been sporterized so long ago, don’t know when, but was my grandfather’s and sat in a pickle crock next to the fireplace for as long as I could remember. When my dad passed it came to me. It had a missing hammer, a broken sear and spring, and as I said, the forearm was gone. I found a forearm for sale from the same model and grafted it onto the stock under the rear barrel band, replaced the broken parts, and found a reproduction “ramrod”. The firing pin was frozen in the trapdoor, so that took some work to break loose. I think it is a functioning rifle now. I found a guy in Austin that had some hand loads for it, but I’m a little chicken to fire it.

I have the pleasure of owning a cut down 45-70 Springfield Trapdoor Rifle, I believe that it was in the hands of BARREMEN the 🎉New York surplus dealer because it has no rifling and basically, turned it into a .410 single shot shotgun.

8:03 "Boom, headshot!" Even if this channel wasn't about cool guns, I'd still love Ian and this channel.

I always liked the Trapdoor. It might not have been the best of the old BP cartridge guns but it’s a neat action with easy to get ammo. Obviously not ammo made specifically for modern guns but regardless it’s way more common than say 11mm Mauser or Gras or .450-577 MH.

Thanks Ian. That was interesting. I've never seen a trapdoor fired and reloaded before. .

We get a rematch like the Martini-Henry vs Jungle Carbine? Yay!😁

I'd never seen one of these in action before, and I suddenly understand why the Army was so happy with them. I'm more familiar with muzzle loading rifled muskets, which are a serious pain to load. The trapdoor is a massive improvement!

I love seeing the old black powder guns being put through the paces

thanks for the black powder content

this series comes at a perfect time for me, I just got into black powder with an S.C. Robinson Sharps Carbine reproduction I found at work for a really good price, cant wait to go out and use it

oh i am going to love this new series

For target shooting, many trapdoor rifles have a pinned front sight. The issued sight can be replaced by a higher front sight which can be filed down until point of impact corresponds with the point of aim for your chosen distance. The Buffington rear sight markings will no longer be regulated for the military load with the higher front sight, but the original issued sight is easily reinstalled.

Excellent subject, I can’t wait for this series.

Cool! Ian making a video with Beau Geste! Very cool video, gents. Congrats :)

Looking forward to this series sounds awesome.

Excited for this, these are my favorite era of firearms.

The Vetterli rifle, or the Vetterli-Vitali is my dream rifle, I'm dying to see rounds be put through on the channel

It is quite possible to use modern smokeless powder (certain types, using reduced loads) to make ammo for both the Trapdoor Springfield and the Martini-Henry. I've done it quite a bit.