6:42 yes, it is about the rider, but by not caring about data you throw away the work from the engineers who made the bikes you love. The diference between frames is INSANE even with small changes and that's ignoring suspension geometry completely, knowing what works for you will not only make you faster, it will let you take more risks, have more fun, and improove overall as a rider. Thoose numbers are there for you to know what you want/like from bikes by comparing the feel you have with different frames and it's what makes the difference between them. You don't NEED them, but using and understanding them will give you an insane advantage when picking your next bike. If you don't believe me, just ask the guy from Berm peak about his custom frame...

Two different bikes with vastly different geometry and components…. This isn’t a very good carbon vs aluminum comparison. The wheelbase difference alone between those 2 bikes is enough to make a huge difference. Obviously you don’t have an unlimited budget, but trying two frames with the only difference being material would be a much better comparison.

I think a better comparison of aluminum versus carbon would have been like for like frame with components. Perhaps a comparison between your aluminum Spectral 125 versus a carbon Spectral 125 and leave all the other differentiating variables out.

Of course we want a fully Aliexpress build and review!!!

This probably isn’t within the budget, but I think an aluminum vs. titanium would be pretty sweet. Showing us the difference between vibration damping, sound, feel, etc. would be pretty cool.

You proved absolutely nothing about carbon vs aluminum frames but Instead decided you don’t like fox factory suspension and the geometry of the meta was better for enduro bikes. No hate at all but you missed the mark on this one, I would recommend trying this again with two identical bikes only difference being the frame material, which then also would only come down to your opinion on which is better.

Its honestly so easy to get a horrible feeling setup on fox factory suspension, it took me the better part of 6 months tweaking then completely rethinking my settings to get it right on my X2 on my ripmo, then threw a zeb select + on the front and apart from getting the sag and tokens right its felt awesome from the start.

Aluminum just makes more sense for almost everybody. Stop wasting wads of cash on throw-away frames if your income does not depend upon it.

Dang, can't say anything to those people with alloy at my races anymore 🤣

I would actually love to see a full ali express build!

Would love to see a full aliexpress mtb build😂😂, great idea!

With regards to suspension setup, you should try hiring or even buying a shockwiz...... It takes the guesswork out of setting your suspension up and covers air pressure, volume spacer, high/low speed rebound and high/low speed compression. I ended up buying one and the difference it makes when you've set the bike up with it is massive

I’d love to see an aliexpress build series. Seems like reviews of the cheap carbon frames are super mixed online- I’ve been looking at the tideace enduro frames and they seem pretty legit. Also very curious about the cheap shimano group sets

Hey Evan! I started following you back when I was researching buying a Polygon Siskiu D7 in 2021, and did end up buying it after watching your videos. When you started your high-low series I also started upgrading the Siskiu D7 with different parts like getting a 130mm Rockshox Pike front suspension, Magura mt7 brakes and new braking discs, Nukeproof Horizon v2 wheels and changing the tyres to Maxxis DHF & Maxxis Dissector. Around this time I was also starting to frequently visit bike parks & more Enduro oriented trails instead of the usual XC oriented tracks in my neighbourhood. I kept on trying to change my downcountry/xc bike to a heavy duty trailbike. But in the end I had to admit to myself that this bike was simply not originally designed for this type of riding, no matter how many parts I would change. Maybe there is a small parallel to this video with trying to get your Alchemy trailbike to be a fully duty Enduro bike. Last december I finally made the decision to sell my Polygon, in favor for a Commencal heavy duty trailbike (by pure luck around the same time you started considering your Commencal I think!). I ended up going for the Commencal Meta TR 29 Race edition (160/140) and couldn't be happier. I decided to splurge a little this time by going for the full build with pretty high end parts so I wouldn't have to keep upgrading it like I had with the Polygon. Thanks for sharing your journey with us!

I totally agree with you that this many adjustments on the suspension can get worse pretty easily for the average joe. More dials means it takes much much longer to dial in your suspension, so if you're not riding every other day it's worth getting some good wheels for example instead of top end suspension. One other thing about carbon vs aluminum I recently found out are the handlebars. I bought a carbon handlebar for my hardtail and had immense wrist pain after 1½ to 2 hours of riding. Changed to an aluminum bar and rode the same trail the weekend later and the pain was gone. It really depends how the carbon is crafted and for which use it's indended.

I would say it comes down to whatever bike youre more comfortable on. Clearly youve been riding the meta longer and are used to it. And you seemed comfortable with how it performed. The carbon bike was new and was giving you issues so of course it would be smaller. A better test would be identical bikes from a manufacturer but one in alu one in carbon and see how it goes.

This isn't really a comparison of frame material. It's more of a comparison between two different bikes. Frame material won't make you faster or slower. Certainly is interesting to learn about challenges when changing out / upgrading suspension components though.

You could try offset bushing in the shock to tweak the geometry, lowered the bb and slackened the head angle on my mythique and it transformed the bike. You might not want that head angle much slacker though so might not help too much. Angled headset cups would be interesting too.

Honestly carbon is really only useful when building an XC bike. The lower weight actually helps, where as in enduro the lower weight really does little to nothing and keeps you worrying about scratching the frame the entire ride.

great content, great approach and numbers and even testing. I wish the commentary was less cringe tho but hey, can´t complain otherwise

Absolutely agree, once I tried full fox suspension on my bike, and man, I really missed my rockshox package: Lyrik 170mm and my vivid air rc2 167mm, super easy to setup. In the other hand, I think that carbon is ok for XC, All Mountain, enduro and DH racing, but for FR is just dreadfull, nothing like a good and stiff alloy frame for serious stuffs; thats my personal opinion

Please don’t stop talking about the boring stuff it’s very informative

Fun comparison. I'm actually in the process of building an aluminum Salsa Balckthorn right now. My honest feelings about carbon, it's great for road bikes, it's great if you have a sponsor who is happy to replace your frame every time it experiences a lateral impact (rock, tree, or some random hard thing), I just don't like it for bikes that take a beating. It's really not what carbon does best. F1 cars, fighter jets, those are all great applications for carbon. But I'm happy trade a little extra frame weight for a material that bends and dents before it explodes. The only bike frame part I've actually broken in the past 20 years was the carbon seat stay on my otherwise aluminum Salsa Bucksaw XO-1. It didn't like getting launched off an eight foot flight of stairs I'd hit literally hundreds of times before on an aluminum 100mm rear travel XC bike. Literally broke into five pieces! I do ride Renthal carbon Fat Bar Lites, and Raceface carbon cranks. Love em. I have very mixed feelings on carbon wheels. One good nick in the fibers and they're compromised. Aluminum wouldn't care.

Hi Evan! I can relate your feeling, try different offset fork, more offset for more relax neutral feeling, also you can try wider tires (yes it help me a alot on may Ibis HD5)

Not at all surprised with the result, you were super comfortable with the Commencal, so it makes sense that you would also be more confident on it & manage it better. Awesome bike. I love my Fox gear & I think correctly set up on the other bike would end up with a very similar result, but you are right about complication & considering the price difference in suspension components, it does say a lot about value & the importance of more not always means better.

Ryan is the best wheel builder in town!!

the frame rear travel convertion was awesome

It has always been so funny to me how you use time trials to compare bikes. here is a little advice for bike reviews. instead of just riding the bikes and timing yourself, describe how the bike feels and who it is for. your videos would be way better if you do that instead of making such huge emphasis on the times.

Also agree. My aluminum Orange five Evo weighs in at s competitive 24.5 pounds with 29er wheels and dropper. It's such a fun bike and it rides incredible. Carbon is light, but you feel everything on a carbon bike.

Fit is usually more important than suspension tuning. When you switched the Arktos to “enduro”, you changed your whole body position and weight balance. Most people can account for the shorter reach without thinking much but, the extra Stack is a huge difference. Should have lowered your stem on the steerer tube first before using a longer stem. As for Fork, maybe a bit less air would have helped get your body position correct, then dial in compression to support where the air spring lacks. I don’t know the kinematics of that bike but, considering you were mostly complaining about the front end at first, I’d probably suggest a less progressive air spring set up and simultaneously a touch less sag. With minor and i mean minor changes to the suspension and some work on fit, i bet you’d have had a better time. Good luck and go fast, don’t die.

Sorry but you have an apples to orange comparison. The bike geo, fit, suspension kinematics are way different. Right off the bat the carbon bike was at a disadvantage because already the bike did not feel right and suspension was not dialed in. Your Meta was dialed and already gave you the mental advantage of confidence. Still like your videos just don’t agree with this one. (doesn’t mean I’m saying carbon is better)

I observed mostly from this that would just try and wing it with the suspension settings. Maybe a bit of time to understand to the adjustments would have gone a lot better for you. Tuning is a frustrating thing indeed. I would suggest to find the mid point as the starter, and go a quarter one way or back to do feel a happy spot. Also the the weight of the shock oil and pressure has its own effects. Its a bigger picture than most would attempt.

I’m actually a huge fan of aliexpress bike parts. I bought some clipless shoes, integrated carbon bars, and what’s basically an xx1 cassette and they have all performed flawlessly. Just as long as your not stupid about who you buy from you will not be disappointed

You should put the float x2 on the Meta if you turn the arktos back to trail

ShockWiz the fox suspension, you may very well need volume spacers to cut down on the chatter of the suspension and you may need some different combo of high/low rebound/compression. The shock wiz in my opinion will help you AND teach you a lot about the suspension you are riding.

These minute differences in settings don't make a difference to the average rider, but they make a huge difference to an expert rider running at the edge of out of control. For the average person watching this video or out on their own bike the difference between one bike and the other really doesn't matter much. The average rider cares way too much about getting gear that they can't possibly use to its full potential. I know they're a sponsor, but good tip on the Aliexpress. I don't want to damage or lose a $200 pair of glasses when riding!

Would be cool to see a comparison between a piggyback shock and the one you have on the SX now, just to see how big the difference actually is. On the same bike ofc

Which one is best? Whichever I can afford LOL

You should try aluminum vs carbon stumpys! They have the same geometry regardless of material, and I think you can buy them with the same spec. It would be interesting to see a better comparison between the two materials.

I recently went from a carbon Intense Primer 29 to an aluminum Commencal AM 29 (29er version of SX). Very different bikes, yes, but I ride the Commencal way better solely because I’m not afraid to ride hard and beat it up. I’m afraid of cracking my carbon Intense in the rocky Utah desert.

Boom I like the KISS principal too, keep it simple stupid, Less settings on the shock, the better the chances of having a better tuned shock! Boom! Sorry I just wanted to say Boom again

In my opinion you are not comparing aluminum vs carbon, but rather two different bike geometries and rear axel paths. Plus, the carbon one is pumped up and not in the original trail form that it was intended. It would have been relevant to compare the same bike (brand, model, year) in aluminum and carbon form.

I'm a big fan of Aluminum frames. Recently I had a crack on by top tube and it was just a $50 welding fix at my neighborhood welding shop. If it was a Carbon frame, then the issue is will be an expensive time consuming one.

Fun but really flawed comparison :) i love my sx but on race laps it gets nailed by carbons such as orbea rallon and santa cruz megatower. But the important thing is that sx is a fkin tank, it plows like a champ and i never wanted a carbon bike :) it is important to mention that commencal makes the best aluminium frames, so it compares with the best carbon out there :)

Dude it’s wild I can immediately see that your Commencal suspension is dialed 😎 it looks buttery smooth over the chunk in comparison to the Alchemy’s suspension. I prefer Rockshox suspension settings. I’m not sure what makes them easier to dial in, but they’re just easier to dial in 😂 for me atleast.

You can use sagly to help you out with suspension setttings! At least with complicated suspension it will guide you into the right direction

You need the same bike in aluminum and carbon for this concept to be relevant. All you did was show that different suspension and frame designs make the for a different feel, not materials.

"I put a longer stem on" Lol

I'd like to see a bike full build from aliexpress including your riding gear for the next videos.

Both of them look great.

A friend of mine had the same problem with fox 36 or 38 grip 2 kashima. He did not like it, and he told me he had to send it back and was a manufacture problem

I think you should do a full Ali express bike build

I think you are kinda like me. I like marzzochi suspension because it has like no settings. I almost never miss the setting my fox 36 had compared to the Z1 I have on my current bike. I have a float x in the back but it's not the factory one with too many settings its the basic one. The marzzi rear shock came out after I bought my bike or I likely would have tried to get that instead.

I'm also building an Aliexpress bike. I'm using the Himalo boost frame. I'm slowly building it up. So far have the mtx 33 wheels with koozer 490 pro and sapim spokes, Cruz crank arm (155mm) and a race chainring, Maxxis assegai and DHR II and DNM coil shock. I'm planning on buying the Himalo 36 dual air fork and Ztto core IV brakes once I get the dough. I think the problem with the 1st bike is you need a coil shock and the fox 38 is probably too big for you on that bike, I mean the fox 38 doesnt match for that frame. Try a fox 36? Or even go full DVO front and rear.

Yeah I’d be interested to see a Ali express MTB , I’ve seen it done with road bikes but not MTB yet. (I will recommend the ZTTO ULT cassette from there, very good and light and like 1/3 the price of top end sram)

Make a t-shirt with a randonneur bike, an all-road bike, a club bike, an endurance road bike, a gravel bike, a cyclocross bike, a hybrid bike, a touring bike and a porteur bike.

what about steel frames, they still have a place, right?

Hey Evan, I imagine you're getting a lot of this, but I think the comparison wasn't very well executed. It's a GREAT video idea and I was really excited to see it, but the wheelbase difference alone on those bikes is enough to make them ride completely differently. It would be much better if you compared 2 of the same frame. I know that would be expensive and you're working with what you have but it's not really fair to compare 2 completely different frames and blame the material when one is faster. Anyways, keep grinding and we'll keep watching. Would love to see a full Ali Express Trail bike build. The Boarse hardtail frame looks promising!

I just got a rock stuck in-between my front and rear triangle on the Arktos 😢 Make sure you cover up that small gap to prevent damage! I'm hoping it's just a paint chip rather than a crack 🤞🏻

I ride my bike with slowest rebound it can go. I don't know why or how but that is just how I like it. I ride with that setting everything from the road to 3-6 meters drop

So can you get a very large shock( 210x70 or something) and not use an adapter and just mount the shock straight to the alchemy linkage?

Kind of agree with many of the comments, with those 2 bikes it’s not really aluminum vs carbon comparison. You can get the Fox Factory with the Grip 3 damper, much easier to set up compared to the Grip 2.

I went to r.s. coil ultimate and absolutely love it. Best shock I've ever rode on and a lot easier to set up.

Evans the type of guy to always blame his b8me when he gets in a crash 😂

i have the zeb ultimate 3.0 on my canyon torque al6 27.5

Can definitely recommend those photochromic glasses from Rockbros!

Speed vision makes awesome wheeels - got both of my carbon wheels for both bikes from them - did a review video on my channel for each

Sweet idea for a video! Interesting how much changes depending on set up

One this I found out when tuning the bike is hit the same trail multiple times to compare

I completely agree with the 'too many settings to adjust' feel. I just want air pressure and rebound adjustment, that's enough for me!

The stability of the Commencal is due in part to it's wheelbase. The 31 mm advantage of the Commencal cannot be understated. Shorter WB is always going to be more twitchy than the longer WB and no amt of shock adjustment is going to make up for it. This beats nursing for sure doesn't it?

Personally I just bought my first carbon bike a few years ago and it’s a diomondback 4c and it’s way better and dampening in the frame and it had the same shock setup as my aluminum older bike

i want to see a ali express bike build. it would be awesome. something like a ican carbon frame. maybe a p1 or p9

NICE video..... I liked the fact that you found your old bike better than the new carbon.

Does anyone else go the simple setup? Just open up the HS compression, set pressure, add/remove tokens if needed and tame the rebound? Then adjust LS compression whenever.

Tire pl.y didn't said f&r shock how many lb

that with the less adjustablity is treu the Charger raced day is the best xc damper out at the moment.

Leatherwood is it's own animal. I just built up a bike with riding Leatherwood being prime consideration. Kills there. Canfield Balance (aluminum frame), 180 Zeb, Progressive coil, e*13 carbon wheelset, 165mm canrks, Revgrips, etc

Hahahaha. You´ll get a lot of love letters for your final statement ;-) But I would argue - steel is even better! Hahahahaha

I have a Ibis Ripmo AF with DVO coil suspension and Diamond Fork, and an Ibis Ripmo V2 (carbon) with Fox Factory X2 and 36. Both perform excellently. I actually think the AF might be a little more fun, but the carbon definitely feels a lot more lively and I like pedaling it longer distance a bit more. 6.5lb difference between the two builds. I think I'll be using the AF for downhill/enduro races and the carbon for my trail days.

You just need to get use to it, it might take a bit but just keep sending how it is

Fear of commitment at best will mess up your run, at worst will get you hurt.

A video presentation of the bicycle fork Bag is available here:kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jslyqrJpp7vbdXk.html

1:30 Yes enduro bikes are fun and all but the vast majority of mountain bikers don't need one, you really only need one if you plan to race or your local trails are steep and gnarly. Lots of riders over bike themselves when the terrain and there skill level will be overshadowed by a long travel enduro bike. Most riders will be better off with a trail bike.

Fox Grip2 HSR is a bit tricky to tune. I run mine just 3 clicks from closed. Anymore than that the fork feels too bouncy and pings all over the place. LSR can be set to taste and trail conditions.

the tests we deserve

I would love to see a bike build

Love your content. Its some of the best!!

Alu might be better in _THIS_ frame and setup, but when comparing materials, you have to eliminate all the variables to really get down to the actual differences.

I think that the twitchiness in the front end has nothing to do with the suspension setup, but more with the bikes geo. If you've ridden a super slack bike, you'll know that it's really hard to keep the front wheel pointed perfectly forward. Some bikes are so slack that the front wheel just naturally wants to be turned, if that makes any sense. I think when you switched the fork it slackened the front end to this point, so that might be the reason why it feels like the bars are going back and forth/twitching (a 63 degree HTA on the alchemy is really slack, that's dh bike numbers). On those really slack bikes, it's hard to keep the front wheel pointed straight unless it's a steep trail

Looks like the stem length difference , and maybe bar width change the nervousness of the front. I've been testing different stem lengths the last week, even 2 cm made a huge difference.

What program did you use for that telemetry??

63.5 HTA should be reserved for DH bikes - way too slack for just local trails. Combine that with the wrong fork offset and you'll just feel floppy.

The commencal meta sx is a 160mm rear end and a 170mm fork not a 150 rear end and a 190mm fork.

So do yall think the carbon frame is stronger or the alloy?

Carbon is not super expensive. Decent hardtail frames for $500, full suspension frames for $1000. Ebay, not Amazon for frames. These carbon T800 to 1000 from Asia are the real deal and I have a few koms with them.

Put a damper shock on the steering.?

There's one that is not fixable by any means. You can weld or braze aluminum or steel, or even titanium. But you are sol if you crack, snap, chip, or anything potentially weakening to carbon. You may be able to get a specialist or the manufacturer to fix, (may) but it's not likely to be structurally sound anymore. If you have a full sus and can remove you're triangle you can just buy whatever half you need (if possible). If you're using a hardtail, sorry..

😢I went off a drop and my fork was low on air Needless to say the fork decompressed and I went over the handlebars hard 4 broken ribs and a messed up soulder and back

You know, you seem to have plenty of resources at your disposal . You might try coil sus front and back for that much travel. I converted my stumpy EVO to coil and it changed everything for the better. Never going back to air. I went with a rc2t in the rear and an ACS conversion kit for the front