As someone who has side-loaded carabiners on trees, I'm glad to see it's not a big concern. Thank you for testing! Your channel rocks.

If a bar is skinnier than 22 mm, you can probably just click the carabiner right onto the bar.

You can always wrap the rope around several times, creating essentially a tensionless hitch. Then there is very little force on the carabiner.

Arborist rigging typically involves the use of half hitches to take more than half the load before the carabiner, so it'd be interesting to see that tested. I always enjoy when you add more content related to arbs & rigging. Thanks for the vid.

In tree work i do this all the time with a beefy steel triple locking biner, a butterfly knot and an extra manual locking biner because i always had the most fear of accidentally opening the gate. Thank you for testing this! Many people tried to stop me doing this before.

Excellent testing, as a climbing arborist I find this content very interesting and helpful. I do this type of attachment all the time in trees, but only for positioning when using a carabiner, never for main life support, where I typically will use a Notch Quickie instead just to be sure. I've always felt that the dangers of loading carabiners like this has been a bit exaggerated by many people, especially when used on thicker branches and stems, but I must admit that these results still surprised me as they're way better than I would've thought. Super good enough! 😁👍

They all seemed to fail by shearing off the hinge pin for the gate and then breaking/bending around the contact point with the pipe. I think it comes down to the ratio of carabiner length to the diameter of the object you are clipped around. With a large diameter anchor point the carabiner sees a pretty gentle bend radius, not enough to shear the hinge pin for the gate. With a tiny diameter pipe the rope almost passes through the carabiner parallel to the spine so cross loading is minimal. I would bet if you tested a bunch of diameters that range from super small to larger than the length of the carabiner, you would find a sweet spot where the pipe is both small enough to have a tight bend radius, but large enough to get the angle at which the rope passes back through the carabiner steep enough (relative to the spine) to cause cross loading. A graph of the diameters vs break strength would likely have an inverted bell curve where the strength decreases until the "sweet spot" and then climbs back up to MBS range. If all that is true then the "sweet spot" could probably be described by the angle the rope passes through the carabiner relative to the spine, giving a "Danger Zone" of angles to visually tell if an anchor like this would be significantly weaker than MBS.

I feel like I have been waiting 2 years for this video. But I'm sure people will still say your wrong. Clearly your not. Super good enough. Thank you

This gives me confidence in my gear. Basically nothing I have ever done has gotten close to mbs. Thanks dude

Makes me feel better about climbing trees and really want one of those drill powered things.

It's a pretty common thing in treework and it's nice to see some tests thanks for that

Dude you really do make breaking things fun & informative unlike any others I’ve seen. Really good work, keep it up!

This video made me feel a lot better about my tree anchors I used with carabiners + rope years ago. I’d love to own a Z2r, but I’ll just enjoy you messing with them!👍

I'm a saddle hunter and I have learned alot of really good information from your channel keep up the great work 👍

I have done this quite a bit, even for anchors 😄 Only ever bent an I-beam style aluminum locker after using it to rig up slings like a chocker cable to haul small trees/branches with an excavator because looping slings or using shackles were too time consuming and inconvenient for the potential risk... (and I wanted to see if it would break, which is why I didn't use a retired steel locker) But I kind of have dedicated life protection hardware and separate used utility hardware that never get mixed up... I honestly expected the aluminum one to break because it was taking some weight and even shock loads "for research" but it just ended up with buggered threads and a gate that didn't line up because of the bent spine before getting tossed... (If OSHA or other people that consider this blasphemous behavior are watching, then this all occurs in Mine Craft of course) 👍

Hey, as we again saw the large diameter pipe. If you are worried about necking in the future, fill the hollow internal with concrete. Its is strong in compression.

I’ve been practicing some rappel techniques in my basement off of a pull-up bar using a system kinda like this, except I use 3-4 wraps around the pipe to help keep the carabiner from going wonky and the pipe and rope from getting damaged over time

I want to see the small diameter tree branch than can support 15kn... Okay, actually thoughtful comment, I suspect the threaded rod was the culprit in a lot of the rope/sling breakage. Especially that relatively non-static rope around the log, the cover was pretty clearly cut by the threads on the bolt. (TL;DR: super good enough)

If you have access to the pipe/branch, loop the rope over, and secure with a Stone knot using the carabineer instead of the fiddle stick. It takes the carabineer bend out of the equation.

Thanks for continuing to put out great content

Thank you for your work breaking my gear fear

Yess!!! Love the arborist stuff! I was hoping you'd do some testing on this. I recently switched to a steel carabiner for this application. I see that probably wasn't necessary 😅 Personally, I'd love to see some pull and dropp tests with the rope runner pro. Maybe even on different ropes. But I get that I'm probably one of eight people interested in that 😂

Good to know. I'm using this forbiden technique (especially the last one) but just to hold my weight, not falling into it.

4:24 dyneema is very slippery. A nylon rope has more friction around the pipe which results in a lower percentage of the force acting on the carabiner. This could be the reason that the biner breaks lower with the dyneema

I love the look and idea of the drill powered pulley.

As an arborist, I'd like to see how a branch fresh out of the tree would hold against the branch test you did. (Assuming the branch used wasn't fresh of the tree😊 It looked dead & dry with light decay) Love the video!❤ Super usefull enough info in there!

I always wondered how safe that was. Arborists often tie off a line like that when they're in the trees doing their thing. Cool to watch, and I was curious how much that hurt the ratings. Now I know.

Love when things you didn't expect to happen happens

Interesting to see, I've always chucked an alpine in just down the rope and clipped that to make a closed loop.

I think the threds on the threaded rod might have compromised the sling.

Funny and informational content, as always! Thanks :)

That’s really interesting. I don’t climb anymore because I’ve switched over to kayaking. In whitewater boating we use 3:1 for freeing pinned boats. There is a lot of discussion about anchors, carabiners, slings, and rope breaking strengths. It looks like for that application our gear is super good enough.

I am so glad you made this.

To get a piece of tree debris to weigh enough to create these kinds of forces (even at shock load) they have to be high diameter pieces, which would negate most of these tests because the angular tensions shown here won't exist, as the clip would be mostly flat against the wood, which would deform to the shape of the clip before the clip deforms. Like, your never going to get a 3 inch branch to weigh enough to damage a clip. Even a 12" branch would be unlikely. Bigger than that and the sharp angular forces against the side of the clip start to dissappear,as seen in the last test. I think the biggest concern is the carabiner coming unlocked

Need a collab with Matt's Off Road Recovery. You know, just in case I decide to rappel in my car.

Thanks for the testing. I'd guess the thin branch test where the sling broke and you wondered how it did that at ~21kN was due to the threads cut the sling. you basically put all the preasure at a couple very small reas which are often not exactly smooth. Especially bad if you pullover such stuff like in the last test. I used pieces of garden hose over small diameter metal stuff to protect the rope. Might not truust my life with that but for rigging stuff it works

nice video. thanks!

Great testing!

Amazing video 😀

thanks for this one bro

Thanks man, really good info for guys who work in towers

Every arborist on here wants you to do this again with the types of carabiners we use... because we know we shouldn't... but you know... hypothetically how much can we get away with :)

I’ve seen some people use that on their personal anchor, sometimes while standing above the anchor. Maybe a fall factor 2 drop test can be interesting 🤷 Thanks for the great content!!

As an arborist, I salute you!

super good enough.

Seeing the results of the tests with the SMC and Omega Pacific carabiners, I'm glad that I invested in buying both. I would never load them that way, but it's good to know that they'll hold up long enough to be used in an emergency evac situation if needed.

Would love to see a test of the JRB Cinch using a climbing ring.

awesome test, loved the results. I think that he carabiner it's not being loaded with the full force because a lot of it it's being "losed" on the priction of the rope on the pipe

I would like to see you test wrapping the rope around the back of the carabiner once. we do this at work all the time to prevent crossloading. it never slips under "normal" conditions, but i wonder what it would take for it to slip.

Sorry I have a question that for sure was asked before quite some times: How comparable is a quasi static pull with a shock load of a fall? Would it give the same results?

You should do fall protection equipment.

So take a steel biner and sideload as much as you want. Ive been using aluminum to cinch when going srt finishing a tree but that's 10 inch plus diameter. I guess im not worried at all now. Thanks.

Can you test it again but with in alpine to clip into like your rigging a pull through/ rope retrieval system

The threaded piece is probably cutting into the rope on the all tread pull and the log pull .if you grab a all tread hard an and spin it in your hand you feel that it is pretty a abrasive compered to a smooth round stock ,even a bit sharp ,especially stainless and threads that is cut, (not roll formed) Sometimes you have metal burrs on them that actually cut your hand when handling them . When you did the log pull the sling was probably fysicalay gliding over the threaded bolt that was sticking out the ridges working as little knives on it.

That's crazy, I was just thinking of messaging you about this this evening. Sometimes when I'm caving my cows tails (lanyard) is attached to the rung of a ladder using a grivel plume just like this.

Interested to see what break tests you would get if you clipped the carribiner to a munters on the rope. Probably full strength till the knot. Just would be interested in the comparison.

I think the test with the narrow threaded rod had geometry that put nearly all the load on the end where the sling looped around the carabiner, and since the distance from that loop to the threaded rod was short there was very little leverage. This would mean that one of the strongest parts of the carabiner was carrying almost all the load, and in a pretty optimal way.

From my experience, of R.A., stunts, and arbor, most of your soft goods ar breaking due to the "sharp" edge of the All thread. Try wrapping the all thread in e tap , card board ,carpet, you k ow the usual gag that people use on set ups, and go from thwre?... also curious to what a full wrap around thw tree I.e. a frictionless hitch does to bend and break the carabiner as then you have direct forces applied to just the bend of the line bending the link over the object?!

Maybe some insight, or maybe I am wrong, good chance I am, but I like to put formula to things. Carabiner roughly 30 deg from pull direction: sin(30) * 31Kn = 15.5Kn

Around the 10 minute mark, I think the sling snapped because of the bolt threads sort of cutting into the sling

I think the smallest diameter bar actually put less side load on the carabineer. There is likely going to be a worst case diameter in there somewhere, it depends on what angle the rope applies pressure to the carabineer.

One method I was recently shown is to clip the rope through the biner twice (it ends up spiraled around the spine of the biner once). This seems to position the biner to prevent side loading, but I'd like to know what other forces it puts on the system, and if the extra bend in the rope weakens it.

Good video. I'd like to know if there's any issue with using an aluminium ring, wrapping around branch, a loop back through the ring with a carabiner blocking and barrel stopper on the end. Rings are cheap and seem much better for this purpose, also stays nicely on the rope. I got a 70kn rated steel one just for extra safety but I imagine its ok with the 30kn DMM alu one.

A thin bransch (of steel) does put a lot less stress on the carabiner since it's less leverage on the carabineer, just like over an edge nor protruding a lot.

Can you test the tension less hitch. If you put several wraps around an object does it compromise the rope strength? Thanks in advance.

Are double action hooks more prone to damage if used in that manner?

Thanks for chasing the rabbit!!!

I’ve gotten side load carabiner comments on my videos and this reinforces my theory that if the limb/trunk is not too small it’s likely just fine. Also I’ve negative rigged some big pieces on steel carabiners and never bent one yet.

And that is why they often use shackles in this situation. Much more similar load to intended performance envelope.

I'm actually really curious about this kind of choking around some sort of anchorage... I come from a construction background where we would have a 5/8" diameter lifeline with a spliced eye and a snap hook installed on it and we were always taught that if we did not have an engineered anchor or embedded anchor to clip to.... it was fine to wrap it around a piece of Anchorage and clip it back to itself as long as we think whatever we were wrapping it around would hold 5,000+ pounds.... Oftentimes that meant large concrete columns in towers or open web steel joists... Is this safe? I know a lot of people working in construction would love to find this out.

It's funny how many times I have seen the "you're side loading your carabineer" comment on tree climbing videos. This seems to prove what I thought, they were meme or troll.

M12 threaded bolt has a 2ton (metric) shear strength but only a rated bolt. If the ends of the all thread you used were not fixed it would have collapses at half that.

So the little pipe creates a bigger moment arm which means more force multiplication. The bigger the pipe the closer you get to it behaving more like a 1:1 pull on a flat surface.

Did the sling break on the "all thread" due to the treads being shaper than a round bar?

"damnit, my thing that breaks stuff broke everything!"

Weight test stacked hexes

Just a thought: I'm sitting on a roof and just got roofing felt tar on my rope. My Petzl Rig suddenly isn't super happy, but I'm just wondering, what happens with tar on a rope? Is it still super good enough?

Algo 🎉 rithm

I’ve questioned the arborist world about how much concern cross loading a carabiner actually is. People can’t handle powerful falls anyways even if the gear does hold. It would be interesting to look at the green log chart to see how long a limb would have to be at 6” to get the loads in the video. Several guys use carabiners in rigging, which can easily see larger drop distances, all be it the tree dampens the force some while loading, and smaller limbs likely will have leaves to partially slow the fall too. I’ve only seen ropes break during rigging, not carabiners. Perhaps others could leave experiences which carabiners have broken during tree rigging.

Would it be affected if the “pipe” wasn’t smooth? Like if it was 1” allthread, would the threads cut into the rope and/or damage the surface of the carabiner?

What if you do one rap and then clip it?

the Z2R how little momentum would in theory be enough.. not referring to ease of comfort for the pulling, but simply how small a modern brushless rotary powertool could you get away with and still deliver enough torque for licting the average male adult.? some of these modern 12v and 18v drills.. deliver a surprising amount of torque for their size. with modern high current IMR/INR LIion cells

I'm taking a break from calculating the pullout force for some lag screws going into PSL engineered lumber for anchoring a railing on a roof deck... and the highlight of this video for me is that the bit of branch held 6+ kn. (But overall, these test scenarios screamed "Oh no! Not that! Take a second and rig a better anchor!" even if some of them would be fine for a rap.)

Why not make a knot upstream and clip there to avoid loading the carabine in a perpendicular load?

Anyone know if Ryan has break tested a BHK/ BFK? Trying to search through old videos but he has SO many! It's not coming up with a word search. Hey Ryan!! Can you break test a BHK if you haven't already?!

The threads on the threaded bar were acting like little knives and cutting the ropes and slings.

I wonder if the warning was as much about weakening the branch as it was side-loading...

🍀🍀

I see rock heads like to adopt tree trimming techniques, but you didn't shock load them.

40kN! Holly shit! How much can a human pull, 2kN?

I get a kick out of how you still sound surprised by proclaiming “it broke”. You break A LOT of things.

11:00 If that was a real tree and I was repelling off the rope I would put the rope where it isn't rubbing on the bolt, but its good to know you can still get 14 kn out of that.

Your pipe is probably expensive, maybe you should fill your pipe with concrete to prevent it from crushing more. Maybe a 1" PVC pipe in the middle so you can run your restraining cord through it.

I may have done this.. A few times. Apparently it's fine? ish

I fail to understand why you'd ever do this, if you have much better alternatives such as an anchor knot or mast hitch with a slip knot. That's what we use in mountain rescue in Germany. For us, it's all about minimizing the amount of equipment you need and building absolute mount points without using carabiner at all, for example. Perhaps it's the different use cases of equipment...? When we build a system, we build it to carry the full 22 kN with at least one backup. For certain rescue techniques, we easily get 15 kN of force on each of the sides which is why we love strong trees and never loading carabiners on their cross axis. Sadly, many trees have been destroyed by fire and bark beetles last year in our areas; some places look like a moon desert.

Why IS the hydraulic winch running on BATTERIES?! 😮

bruh I got a huge variety of steel carabiners even huge ones and already twisted ones. (they were made that way)

Nope, if it is aluminum biner they break. Done it with steel and they bend. Both jam lock the gate.

How much does it take to break a thin branch out of a tree? Because I don't think I'd trust my life on a thin branch regardless

I don't know about others but I don't use all thread for trees. Rigging for me is usually to the bolted branch. I don't use AT because it rusts faster and is hard on ropes.