For what it is worth, when Olde Eynsford made its debut, I talked to Chris Hodgdon at SHOT, and I asked if they used better charcoal in OE than in standard Goex. He told me that the formula is exactly the same. The only real difference is that they sieve it to a more uniform grain size.

Many thanks from Bulgarian Muzzle Loaders Federation for this conversation.

I'm happy you made this. The internet is stale with informarion by old men shooting hawkens and nssa guys regurgitating the same old stuff.

"3f doesn't burn faster. It just takes less time to consume itself." You'd make a good lawyer.

25:23 Many years ago I spoke with a gentleman on an historic firearms site who I learned had been a chemist working with the Elephant brand powder company. He explained to me that the lower case "g" on sporting powder stood for "glazed". Unlike current blasting or military powders, the finished powder got an extra period of tumbling at the end of the manufacturing process. This slight warming and turning brought a minute amount of the nitrate to the outside of each grain, giving a cleaner and more consisant burn along with a shinier, more refined appearancre. He said that once the process became popular, less reputable companies would add graphite to the end of the mix to imitate the appearance and call it "glazed" even though it just became dirtier and harder to ignite. 25:23

Brett.......that was an excellent presentation and so informative! I look forward to the next chapter and am proud to be a customer. Continue to march, brother and from one vet to another......Thanks for your continued service.

Very interesting information. I learned a bunch of new stuff today! The facts in regards to the different size powders was eye opening for sure. RIP Goex

I have THOROUGHLY enjoyed this discussion! Excellent channel! You are doing a solid for all blackpowder shooters , ty!

fantastic video! informative, with a easy to understand question and answer format.

Excellent Lecture Brett.. There are two functions when a powder charge ignites, there is the flame propagation time and the grain burn time. The propagation time is shorter with larger grain powders as the spaces between the grains is larger, however the grain burn time is longer as the grains are bigger. There is some degree of balance between the two processes. As you say, the propagation speed is incredible, but the powder burn rate is a lot slower and is not supersonic. There is NO detonation occurring in BP. 19th C power makers tried hard to slow down the burn rate for cannon powder by using large blocks and substituting charred straw for charcoal to try and reduce the peak pressure in cannon. In general however I would agree that grain size in GP is a very minor factor in small arms. The s Corned powder has been around since the 16th C. Meal powder or "serpentine" will separate out in transit and had to be made on site. Whilst I agree that whilst greater densities of corned powder were used in the 19th C it is not that new. UK powder was always denser than French powder all through the Napoleonic period. Dust is not just a waste issue in BP.. dust was the main propagation risk in magazine storage. Unlike modern explosives which propagate via shock waves, BP is not that shock sensitive. It will however propagate through a flame front travelling through a dust cloud. BP magazines, particularly on ships, were carefully made to be dust tight using tongue and groove joints. BP that became dusty due to age and poor handling could be sent back to have the dust removed or for re-milling. Very damaged powder was returned to have the saltpeter extracted. Latest UK prop charges do not use BP.. for the moment! From a Brit ATO to an American one.. keep up the good work!

You fellas are greatly enjoyable to hobby history nerds like me! I stayed up very late listening to this conversation. Subscribed!

Terrific content, thank you!

Very informative video and very knowledgeble humble people .

What a great lecture on black powder. Several years ago I got into the hobby of black powder firearms and spent weeks researching black powder information. Everything I learned during that period is in this video and some I didn't know. One question, I have heard that the speed of drying the black powder has an effect on the burn rate. Have you done any experiment with that? If true I would expect the change to be greater on screened/ corned vs pucked.

I found this very interesting. Everyone is upset that Goex is no more. But I am sure a buyer will be found to take over. If not the imported powder will have to fill the market but at what price. I use triple 7 FF in my flintlock but I still prime with black powder. It's made for the pan. I do notice you get a crud ring in the barrel with triple 7 right behind the bullet. I guess it's the sledge hammer effect. Triple 7 says to use 5 grain down the barrel first of black powder as a starter in flintlocks. I have had excellent results doing this in my rifles.

When I can find black powder without paying both arms and legs for minimum order size, hazmat, and shipping fees I'll keep this video in mind! 👍🏻👍🏻

Thanks for the blast of an ending !!!!!! Great job guys.

Great video. The discussing of internal ballistics is way, way over the head of most people. Pressure curves, stripping due to bullet travel exceeding the ability of said bullet to engage the rifling, particle size being a variable in the engagement of ignition of powder grain..... I loved every minute of it, but then again I've have made it a topic of study for decades, and enjoyed hearing discussions of history intertwined with the science. As a side, 1f in the chamber, 3f in the flash pan. Smaller grain size presents more opportunities for an individual spark to increase likelihood of a successful event when delving into the flintlock realm. Yes, i know it's two different sizes to have to deal with at the range, but sometimes it cures timid or shy flintlock. Keep up the great work, and keep the dragons' bite small.

Didn’t expect the ending. Nice.

Absolutely fascinating. Never occurred to me how much the actual wood type mattered. Great video gents.

Excellent video. Nice to see the subject properly explained. Been shooting the black stuff I the UK for more years than I will admit, and you are the first Americans I have seen go into this detail and get it absolutely correct. Not far off what they teach at the Military college of science here. More please😊

That was really good to know.....now to find the better Swiss powder and keep an eye out for any remaining Slav powder. Totally learned a bunch and changed my mind about modern propellants.

French Vectan (PNF) powder is also made of Bourdaine but they are set up to make black powder for the French army artillery shells so they do not handle it as well as the Swiss so it is only a moderately good powder and far dirtier. It illustrates that both materials and processes affect the results. To be fair to Vectan their powder is perfectly adequate for the purpose of the factory but less so for the sporting user.

exellent vid ...enjoyed that a lot ...well explained

Fascinating discussion...thankyou!

Thank you guys so much for making such a unique, interesting, and helpful video. I was REALLY hoping you'd have a small bit dedicated to reenactor grade powder, or "skirmish" as you call it. I bought two pounds of Goex Reenactor and then five pounds of Schuetzen reenactor grade powder. Nowhere on the internet can I find good reliable information as to how it performs with actual live-firing.. every account is someone asking my same question and basically being told what it is, and not what it does..

Great video, I learned a lot

Brilliant analysis lads

Wonderful presentation, I delve in percussion gunpowder and cartridge gunpowder things myself. I want a Brown Bess, maybe a "Charleville" in the future, but we'll see, but a flintlock is on the list for sure. And I learned a lot, and you answered some questions I've had for a long time and no amount of books or forum (*shiver*) diving would net me an answer: Like for instance how does a volumetric powder measure "know," even between different grain sizes, that this is 35gr by volume? Across different measuring instruments, even if there is a "standard" to begin with? Oh and agreed on "propellant." I've traditionally referred to gunpowder as being "a contained, fast-burning, but low explosive turned into a propellant by way of confinement" as the technically correct term for smokeless "powders" is smokeless "propellant" as well as they are only another version of a fast-burning, gas producing compound. Really not much different than the OG gunpowder, they still deflagrate, despite what the UN and DOT say (What is it, Class 1.3 "Explosives") it is still a propellant by nature. Thanks gents!

this was interesting... thanks for sharing.

School is open. Stumbled across this. Subscribed.

Thank you for an excellent lesson.

Thanks for this video. This is the best explanation I have found. I look forward to reading your book on the subject. How does the new Goex BP compare to the BP the old company made?

This channel is so underrated.............

Absolutely brilliant! You just got another subscriber (partial thanks to Rob's review of your books as well ;-) I'm a recent convert to black powder (Martini Henry so far) and the amount of mysticism and black magic on the forums is incredible. Nice to see it all explained in a simple discussion. P.S. Never had an Arty-Sim on dropped on my sand-table-map but I've witnessed how well 7.62 empty cans fly with one underneath! You CAN make a brick fly lol.

I learnt a lot from listening to Brett, very interesting! I regularly shoot BP and have found a new respect for it!

well that was pretty cool. and informative. Thank you.

This has to be one of the best sit-downs on the production/nature of Black-Powder made now and then...

Great video, great guest and great attire! How far are you into 18th C. powder?

When I worked up a load for my 1861 Springfield, I used 2fg and 3fg. Found 47 grains of 2fg put the bullets through the same hole at 50 yards. 5 shots puts 3 holes in the target. I have plenty of 1fg for my muskets. I may try working up a load using 1fg.

As per normal, an other first rate discussion. thank you both. When will part 2 be posted?

Loved the great info and the manner it was presented. Citing your reference material was also a nice touch. What are your thought on electrostatic discharge causing ignition? It seems a lot of BPCR shooters condemn the use of electronic powder measures but will still pour powder down a metal drop tube.

I have a can of goex fffg powder it's from the 70's red metal can made in Berlin plant Moosic Pa it's been kept in a cool dry place all it's life is it still safe to shoot watching your videos I've gotten the bug to start shooting again keep these videos coming

Two prophets of the Holy Black. Much love brothers

Thank you for busting all the fuddlore surrounding black powder shooting. I can't tell you how much "I knew a guy who knew a guy who totally saw someone blow up their gun using FFFG once!" I keep seeing out there.

Very interesting stuff. This got me inspired to go out and blow stuff up in the yard and shoot my muzzle loader 👍😁

@ 1:04:22 I don't know either, but I know it's definitely better than the normal stuff; it's very close to the Swiss powder. I recommend it for Flitlocks (at least, going by the greater likelihood of ignition for my flintlocks; swiss has trouble igniting compared to Eynesford).

Love the channel guys!, now i feel a slight bit dim, i get that grain size is irrellevant when the barrel length allows the powder to fully combust, but the pressure maximum during firing has to be higher with (assuming equal charge by weight) finer powder right?? because of more surface combusting at the same time and all?

Very timely video as i just ordered myself one of the new Pedersoli Whitworth rifles. I am curious why the gentleman from the capandball channel uses 3f in the Whitworth, but 1 1/2f in his original 45 cal military target rifle. Any idea why?

I would love to know your thoughts about the burning characteristics of highly compressed black powder in a cartridge. I use 68 grains Swiss 1.5 in my 45-70 rounds. I have always been told black powder burns more consistently when compressed. My 45-70 rounds shoot beautifully so that seems to possibly be true, thoughts?

What is the title of the text you used as a reference in this excellent presentation?

So, using this info, would 4f or 3f work in pistols, 3f or 2f in medium barrel lengths like a hawken, and 2f or 1f in long barrels like muskets and Kentucky rifles? Great video, very informative.

I found this info very interesting. I've been trying to learn more about historical black powder and have read about there being J2 powder that replaced R.F.G. powder and was more energetic. How was J2 a hotter powder, and is there a modern equivalent?

A good presentation Brett, and now my question. I am on our black powder team and have chosen BP trap as my interest of choice. The old timers and also myself use FFF (3F) in our black powder mostly 12 gage shotguns, now after watching your video I am to understand 1F or 2F would also be acceptable, or am I missing something.

I'm curious about the grain size question. From my understanding of chemistry I would expect smaller grains to burn faster and therefore increase chamber pressure faster, possibly meaning the full charge is acting on the bullet for the whole length of the barrel, possibly leading to more acceleration for longer, therefore higher muzzle velocity. Is that inaccurate? I understand it's same net energy being released by the gunpowder but isn't it being applied to the bullet differently?

Edit: rest of the video answered my question lol. Being a Union reenactor, I have loads of 3Fg powder, (luckily Swiss brand) would this be perfectly fine for a laid back range day for an Armi Sport 1863 Springfield replica? Or should I use the 1F you mentioned you use?

So what's the deal with 1.5F powder? Advantages? Disadvantages? What would you use it in?

The issue of burn time & peak pressure is proportional to mass vs. surface area. That is to say, for any given mass 3Fg has much more surface area then 2Fg. Both will ultimately produce the same amount of gas per weight but 3Fg will do so in a shorter span of time. What we want is to push the bullet down the barrel as the path of least resistance long before the yield strength of the barrel is reached. Normally, upon ignition, pressure increases until the bullet begins to move. From this point the volume of space behind the bullet is ever increasing while the rate of gas production is decreasing from peak. Now, 60 grn by volume of 2Fg has less mass and less surface area then 60 grn by volume of 3Fg. However, 60 grn by weight of 2Fg has the same mass as 60 grn weight of 3Fg but the 2Fg will take up more volume. Wait...What!? A 2Fg piece of powder takes longer to burn to nothing then a 3Fg piece does, it's simply bigger to begin with but from a volumetric measure there are fewer of the 2Fg then 3Fg. Point is, going strictly by volume, mass and surface area go up with finer grain powder, thus greater pressure over a shorter span of time, all other things being equal. Thus, hand guns using light bullets & short barrels use small charges of 3Fg while rifles using heavy bullets and long barrels use larger charges of 2Fg.

Weren't the components mixed and ground together in a moist state, and then the cake is allowed to dry out after pressing? I've read what this does is dissolve the saltpeter, allowing it to recrystallize evenly in the pores in the charcoal, allowing for more even and faster burning.

Thank you very much for this video. Very interesting conversation. My wife was bored to death while I was on the edge of my seat. haha!

The "G" means that there is graphite added at the polishing stage. It helps to prevent "dusting" during transport.....

Speaking of poundage used by the US military , those 16 inch guns on an old battleship if I’m not mistaken they were loaded with 3, 50 pound bundles of black powder so 150 pounds of powder pushing I think it was a 1500 pound projectile about 4 miles

For speed of ignition surface area of the pieces matters.

Where do you buy your powder? The last place close to me in central Texas stopped selling and I'm looking for a new source. Do you order it and pay hazmat?

So where is Part 2?

for a given rifle barrel type & length, is the degree of fouling related to the grain size of the powder charge? i.e. given that smaller grains burn faster than larger ones, would there be less fouling w/ finer grain powders? Some comments I've seen indicate that almost 50% of the powder charge is wasted as either deposits (fouling) or smoke (probably can't do much about the smoke though).

Sulfur also increases the efficiency of black powder while somewhat reducing fouling. Black powder with sulfur produces more gas to propel the bullet and less solids.

Overall a good video, but I feel like the consequences of grain size was a little mangled in this video, with a lot of dithering between total energy output vs. burn speed. As you note, grain size very clearly has an effect on how fast a given volume of powder burns. So while 60 grains of 2F powder and 60 grains of 3F powder contain the same amount of energy, when they burn the 3F dumps its energy much more quickly than the 2F does. This probably has important consequences for bullet obduration, and how quickly the bullet obdurates as it starts its motion down the barrel. Look at your sledge hammer example. The reason why the lead deformed is because the sledge hammer struck the lead quickly. but you could impart the same amount of energy over a much longer period of time and the lead block will move but not be deformed at all. The duration of time over which the force acts matters. If you had a super-super long barrel you could, in theory, accelerate a bullet slowly enough that it would not obdurate at all, with a long enough charge burn time. So, the abruptness of the blast is an important aspect of the internal ballistics. It is not solely a function of the charge burning out by the time the bullet leaves the barrel. My suspicion is that because a 3F charge develops it's maximum energy discharge faster than a 2F charge does it is able to cause the bullet to obdurate with less powder. I have seen this in my own load workups. So for *target*shooting*, at relatively short ranges (say 50 to 100 yards), there may indeed be a benefit to using 3F over 2F - namely you get to use less powder for the same accuracy and since 2F costs the same as 3F this is a cost savings to the shooter. Now I do agree it is possible that for some guns and bullets 2F may perform better than 3F in terms of accuracy. I have seen this with my Pedersoli P58 and the RCBS-500M bullet, which seems to do best with 60 grains 2F Goex in spite of my attempts to find a 3F equivalent load. And have heard this sentiment echoed by other competition shooters before. It is possible that this is due to stripping, as you note, or possibly some other internal ballistics characteristic. Anyway, long story short, I think there is more to the problem than only total energy output. Duration of output is also a factor and grain size directly relates to how fast the pressure wave happens.

The lighter hardwoods have the best cellular structure for good black powder. Some softwoods are also good, such as white pine (again, a lighter member of the pine family). The charcoal should not be overcooked, as the remaining volatiles in charcoal are quite important to produce good, fast black powder.

22:47 - "pressed" bullets - as in swaged in a die? Modern jacketed projectiles are swaged (cast bullets aren't of course).

I was giving a 50 caliber black powder rifle. It came with 209 primers handful of bullets and some 45/50 triple seven pellets. I know the 45/ 50 pellets are supposed to be for 45 caliber rifles but can you use them in a 50 caliber rifle safely? I asked the person who gave it to me and they told me they had already shot probably 20 shots to the rifle using those pellets. I wanted to make sure that the rifle hadn't been damaged and it was safe to use.

Now that I have more time to type. Here is some elaboration. I'll preface this by saying that any caps used is for emphasis, since I can't put a bold typeface in a comment. I'm not yelling. :) So about the different granulations of powder. A single molecule of powder may always burn at the same rate, but 3f DOES burn faster, in that it expends it's energy in a shorter distance in the barrel. That's why it is used in pistols and small bore rifles. It will give you higher velocities in short barrels. Now, at the instant of firing, the pressure at the chamber is the highest it's ever going to get. As soon as that projectile starts moving, the pressure begins to drop. 3F WILL. Give a higher chamber pressure and a sharper spike. That's WHY it gives higher velocities in shorter barrels. See Savvy Jack's 44-40 pressure tests for reference. The sharply dressed gentleman in the video is correct that the difference doesn't matter in REPRODUCTION MUSKET BARRELS. The steel used in repros will withstand more pressure than you're going to generate with any reasonable charge of black powder. Those barrels are long enough that all the energy of the charge will be spent before the bullet exits, regardless of burn rate. In fact, testing has shown that the smaller granulation can sometimes deliver LOWER velocities from long barrels. The word used today for the phenomenon of bullets expanding to fill the bore is "obturation". Lastly, and now I am yelling, PYRODEX IS THE DEVIL! Use real black if you can. Use triple seven if you must, but, for the love of fine frontstuffers, stay away from pyrodex. That's all I got.

60 grains of 3f is like 80 grains of 2f is how I was taught to load idk if that’s true/correct? Thanks for the videoI wish we could see an old factory in action. I want to make my own little production shop so bad. I found one video of an old water powered mill on KZfaq but no powder actually being run :-(

I think you have missed the biggest difference bt 1f and 3f powder in a rifle. It's much more of a consistent burn. The maximum spread fps is much tighter. This leads to tighter groups. I do agree that in a smoothbore, it doesn't matter. They aren't accurate enough to tell a different. But that's bc a roundball isn't round after it's been fired, and sees the same accuracy with both powerds. Good video, hope you are back to making these types of videos soon.

So the difference in size what it sounds like it's how quickly the powder build pressure would that be a more accurate way to actually describe what's going on? Because I 100% would agree that it's not burning any faster just that more pieces are burning thus more pressure is my thought process

You talk about how Swiss powder is close to what powders made in the mid 19th century (1850 +/- ) were. However, did the powders made from 1690-1830 resemble anything we can buy today?

Have You guys tried useing tissue paper and Nitrate model aircraft dope ,no glue needed and this stuff completely disappears in use and wears great in storage 😮

Debbie Downer here.. Power = Energy / Unit Time. Finer grained powder has more power, that is a fact. What's confusing, is that the total energy is the same. The force curve over the time the ball is in the bore, is different. If you add all the force though, it'd be the same total. Imagine a diesel truck pulling a heavy load that requires a slower burning fuel to generate more torque (force) than a car. The Horse Power of a diesel truck is lower than most cars. A given car can consume the same amount of energy as the diesel example but it will occur faster, more HP and, and provide less torque. However the car, doesn't need as much torque, it weighs less. Thus, the increase in power (HP) makes it go faster. Which makes sense b/c it's doing less work. The car is able to use a faster fuel. More massive projectiles require slower burning fuels b/c they require more force to get them started. If the ball doesn't move forward, there's no volume increase and the gases cannot expand and combustion cannot continue. If you tried to fire a cannon ball with FFFFg powder, a large portion of the powder wouldn't even combust. The diesel vs gas analogy has a major flaw, in that diesel is a different fuel with a higher flash point and more energy.

15:41 Please,which Movie is it

Yeah but we measure sporting powder by volume and 3f has a different surface area than 2f no? So wouldn’t the latter take longer to burn than the former?

What is the text referenced throughout the video here?

Question: I have acquired a free can of black powder. Question is it is HODGDON Black powder FFG, on the back it says Black gunpowder explosive Made in Scotland. Is This type of Black powder Safe to use?. I have poured some out and it looks fine?. Asking because you gents did not mention Hodgdon powder. Thanks for a reply and Great Video on Black powder.

48:00 - 1/15600 sec = 64 microseconds (0.000064 sec) ! I homemade blackpowder and fireworks, as a teen in the 1970s. From personal experience, I can confirm many of the statements made here. For many fireworks use, the sulfur is unneeded. Also, homemade powder is very hydroscopic, especially compared to the store bought powder, I use in my black powder guns.

Boom!

BTW, since you're still watching these comments, have you done the part two yet?

Hi, good channel. I want to comment about black powder being better in the 1900 :th century. Yes, that is probably true. But, when people say that they had bad powder before, that is much earlier, 1700 :th and they did not press, corned the powder either.

I would have watched this video if I could have heard it. I see other comments that some heard Brett's speech,but I could only hear a low voice, unable to follow the speech.

There are still lots of people online preaching the "hot" black powder granulation myth like it's the undisputed truth.

OUTSTANDING Gentlemen!!

It sounds to me like blasting powder is the sledgehammer and sporting powder is the jeweler's hammer.

Very interesting video, but the explanation on the burn speed difference between grain sizes seems a bit convoluted. Granted, the same "weight" of FFg and FFFg have will probably generate the same amount of gas. And, although the burn rate is theoretically the same for both, the smaller grain size will burn up faster. HOWEVER, typically black powder shooters do not weigh their powder for each shot, they use a powder measure by volume. For the same volume, there will be a greater weight of FFFg powder than there will be of FFg powder. And that greater weight of FFFg per same volume will result in more gas being produced in the same or less amount of time. This is why some people say to "Use less powder if you are using FFFg in place of FFg". My personal experience in my Dan Wesson BP target rifle is 90 grains of FFFg (or Pyrodex P) works far better than 90 grains of FFg (or Pyrodex RS), despite the FFFg being a "pistol" powder. Your mileage may vary.

oh I clicked on this because I thought it was about the tabletop war sim Black Powder. Still interesting though!

Why would the larger grain powder have more recoil if it's the same power and mass?

Using black powder as an ignition booster just isn’t the same as “using black powder”. I mean if they used it launch lines or something that would be something. However I’m sure flash powder would do the same thing for more expense. This is more of a cost cutting measure than anything else it seems.

Interesting....... my own experiments have proven that what granulation one chooses for best results is indeed a matter of barrel length for the same WEIGHT of powder. Coarser grains mean less density so a volumetric measure may yield lower velocities, all other things being equal,. because there's actually a bit less powder in there. The difference is small with charges in the sub 100gr rage though, as my powder scales attest. I think I get more fouling in the pistols with 2F than I do with 3F, but again the difference is small. In the 36" rifle barrel it doesn't seem to matter, but it' a small calibre rifle (.50)... in larger bores the difference might be more pronounced. The recoil impulse IS a bit sharper with 3F....so it would seem that the pressure peak occurs sooner... I only have subjective evidence for that however. I have noticed that my home made powder is a bit less dense per volume unit that the commercial stuff, but with identical weights the performance is very close to the same. Plenty of room for a bit of extra powder in the rifle and shotgun, less so with the pistol, although I think my powder squishes down more than the shop stuff. BP is often hard to find here in NZ, so I started to make it, a pound at a time, as it need it. Technique is everything it seems as each batch gets better than the one before. I have to make my own willow charcoal as well. All part of the journey....... A great video... thank you..

I don't blame the pritchett bullet for being "upset". If someone put 3000 pounds of pressure up my rear end I would be "upset" too.

We still use Black Powder for muzzleloaders because there’s not currently as reliable and good a product as BP. That’s why we still use it. It’s been used for over 1000 years and has been made everywhere with extremely limited technology.

Hi, great video thanks. If you can get some, give "Holy Smoke" a try. It is made in New Zealand, It would be interesting to see how it stacks up against those other brands you have used. Cheers, Dave P.s. I can post you some if it is possible legally.

So if I make powder from my homemade charcoal I make from plywood I get from work, it definitely won't be consistent or good lol

With the glazing and graphite coating, I always wondered, if that made the rather coarse musket powder more 'bitchy' to reliably and swiftly ignite with the sparks of a flintlock, compared to the historical 18th C. powder.