Our audio was healed in the name of MythVision! The name above every name ... AMEN! I hope everyone can enjoy this video better now.

Apologists: God is the greatest conceivable being. Me: I'm conceiving of a being that does not necessitate apologetics.

When I deconstructed, I was smacked down with the Dunning-Kruger crow bar hard when I saw what I didn't know!

As a born and raised Jehovahs Witness. It was shocking once I woke up and started my Bible research. I didn't know anything about the Bible. As a Witness, we are taught we are the only ones who know the Bible. Lol

When presups ask me how I can know anything without a god, I ask them how we are having a coherent conversation and engaging in correct communication as communication is defined.

The most dangerous ideology comes from people who think they have the answer. Religion is holding humanity back.

Apologetics gives the appearance of logic and reason, but it's really the absence of both.

I came from a very conservative church of Christ. Left after serving as a deacon for years even put up for an elder position. My dive into preterism caused a considerable backlash from the pulpit to the point I met with the elders. Having gotten nowhere I decided at the suggestion of my wife that if I was that unhappy I should not attend any longer. The relief was heaven.😉 Reflecting back through the years I then realized how the group historically treated anyone, especially other churches that held different views, with a passive aggressiveness. As time went on I begin to deal with verses in the Bible that always took me aback when reading them i.e. slavery, genocide, etc. That convinced me to leave it all together. I still put the challenge out there to those who talk about a all loving god to logically refute those verses. Crickets

Oh wonderful! You fixed the audio this is so lovely. I shall watch it again ❤❤❤

Glad to see you decided to class up your channel by hosting Dr. Josh.

I’m fortunate to know myself well enough to know I do not want to be seen as an authority on anything lol. I waste less time on pursuing my status & more on applying knowledge gained…. But I could never do this without those who are comfortable with being authorities & take pride in doing this with integrity. I am very grateful that we are all so varied, because when we do it right (one for all & all for one) great things happen for all.

Praise science for fixing the audio

Awesome seeing Kipp on here as well as I used to go to church with him! So proud of his journey.

I loved the discussion for brining in context as important in understanding historical writing and how context is still important in the present when working with ideas and information. I had forgotten just how recent it is to have access to books or even lectures and that who the writer’s audience is and what background the writer has, play a large role on what is presented. This talk was like a cliff hanger because it cut off just when there was a build up.

This is great! I'm one of those people still out in the hallway. But I can at least see into the library. First floor of course lol. Thanks so much for all the time and hard work all you guys do bringing this to us lay people. 👍

Never ask the merchandizer for the drawbacks of his products.

Thanks for fixing the audio. I was listening to the first one but it was difficult so i stopped. I really enjoyed this discussion

Thank you for healing this video of the bad audio of the original version.

Trying to learn apologetics was when my eyes started to open, i started to see the bullshit. I talked to my pastor about it and he said "i don't need apologetics, i just believe the Bible" that was a huge red flag to me and wasn't long after that i deconverted.

At 15:23, another primary motivator for famous apologists (and every pastor) is income. Josh McDowell and son make their living by causing the church feel validated and right. They keep an appearance of scholarship while purposefully ignoring their own bias in favor of a slick "It's all true" presentation. Josh also said that his dad told him, if you can't find a job then make one. He made one in being a paid apologist.

I’m so happy this was a struggle to listen to before, now it’s like… happiness

I have peered into the abyss, there is no going back.

Kip mentioned that some well-known Christian apologists had terrible childhoods. I definitely think that people who carry childhood trauma, such as myself, are very vulnerable to being sucked in by Christianity. If you find the right church community, you can feel love and belonging like you’ve never known before. There is a performative aspect of being a part of a church community as well, where one can earn people’s love through doing good works for that community. Those of us who have childhood trauma are often codependents who have learned that we have to earn the love of other people (as we had to do with our parents). Therefore, church life feels familiar in this way. In my own experience with the church for 32 years, I can tell you that it filled some pretty deep holes that I had due to childhood trauma. I’m thankful that I have done a lot of healing work now and no longer need Christianity to fill those holes.

If you haven’t already, read Eric Hoffer’s classic, True Believer. It’s an exploration of the psychology of mass movements, religions among them.

The apocalyptic theology of the oppressed becoming adopted by the powerful, reminds me of the amazing Dune series. Which itself deliberately plays with Abrahamic mythology and the way that deliberately invented myths can become self fulfilling.

Thank you.

The confidence is simply natural human confidence wherever it comes from. It's our natural tendency, in general, to believe what we think.

This was great 👍

Great shirt, great tie, sweet bandana

1st!

18:55 ❤ since becoming a Mythvision patreon member, I'm standing in the British library and feeling a little agoraphobic😂

Everything wrong with apologetics in 43 minutes? A bold claim.

@MythVisionPodcast Can you please explain why you flashed an image of a romance novel about a "small town's hottest lumberjack" who "falls for the full figured curvy girl" at around 9:38 in the video? I was hoping to see the book cover of the book you were referencing in your story, but that was apparently not to be. Edit: I'm guessing it was supposed to be: The Eye of the Beholder: The Gospel of John as Historical Reportage by Lydia McGrew.

Love this conversation. I like the hallway/door analogy by Dr. Josh and as an exvangelical I have learned so much from these 2, their fellow Diablocritics, and the many scholars on mythvision plus my own reading. BUT As an evangelical, what Dr. Josh said about the hallway and door wouldn't have phased me a bit. I would've said "sure I'm in the hallway but look at all these evangelical PhD's who DO know what's in that room, the same as you! Mike Licona Bauckham Michael Bird Simon Gathercole Craig Evans NT Wright Dan Wallace Kevin Vanhoozer Heiser Walton Etc. I would have said sure I can't personally go toe to toe with a critical scholar who has a PhD (laughable that some of these apologists w/o PhD's think they can), but I'm relying on these ETS members who have PhD's and who do know all the same data points, read the same languages etc. I'll see your Ehrman and MacDonald, and throw down a couple PhD's of my own. From the outside I now find critical scholars more persuasive and ETS members who've already signed an inerrancy statement more than a little colored by their preconceptions. But that's how I'd have responded to the hallway/door thing as an evangelical

I do.

Dr Bowen, I suggest that one chooses a different hallway where the first throw rug is “No god”, then that model matches so munch more of what we experience. Maybe I had an advantage over you, I was a science/engineering scholar but rather than testing my models against other human arguments, mine were tested against nature. It’s tough to debate nature and win. Nice discussion, though

Nice ,thanks

Debate is good , it clears the fog of misunderstanding but with apologist they reject debate in favor of trying to justify the word against debate.When they fail, it is always "you will burn in hell" as the final declaration against debate. I see that as signs of a cult. When reason, understanding and historical fact become rejected to follow a doctrine. "belief " is the demands of a lie. Understanding is weighed against belief via facts, research and debating the evidence to become more understanding of all the elements necessary to grow wise. I think BELIEF requires a contortionists to support that belief, acceptance of facts derived via debate does NOT. It does however require you abandon belief to accept truths derived and made clear by constant debate. That is life.

Giving a difference sounds like someone is asking you. Most apologist go on offense and kinda push their view when no one is asking them

What no apologist ever says: "Sorry, I was wrong."

If god is all-powerful and all-knowing why doesn't he just make himself known like he used to in the old testament

I wouldn't call it deconstruction more like a reconstruction

Is this a re-uploaded from yesterday?

As a deconverted Christian, i have tons of respect for Michael Heiser..so would just like to point out that at 12:55 in this video, that is not the Old Testament scholar. That was a completely different person and name😏..RIP MIKE❤

21:50 Dr. Bowen is absolutely right about Dunning-Krueger and the need to understand the value of expertise in a subject. Unfortunately this same thing is often used as a tool by some "authorities" to try to shut down challenges coming from people with fewer academic qualifications, even though those people's arguments might be entirely valid. An unfortunate and frequent example of this comes from your other guest, Kipp Davis, who routinely does this to Godless Engineer. Instead of addressing GE's specific points in detail he chooses to dismiss him because, for example, GE can't read ancient Hebrew and Greek and so depends on using the most reliable translations he can find.

100% agree they're trying to convince themselves. When you take a step back and realise how ridiculous organised religion is your whole world view could collapse and they just can't cope with that.

You mispelled Dr Michael Heiser's last name as "Heizer"

What a terribly frustrating field to work in

How does one explain to someone else that one has deconsructed by way of educating themself out of Christianity, without sounding arrogant?

Reading the work of apologists, it seems like it’s written as a response to the critics, valiantly, putting them in their place, and silencing their doubts, meanwhile the primary audience are believers who are comforted by the strong arguments and picked up the book to help them out with the guys at work who ridicule their faith. Reinforcing their belief they are on the right side. Apologists don’t write to have conversations to further understanding and critical thinking. It’s classic confirmation bias. my parents are sold out Christian’s and I was talking to my mom about heaven and the fallen world we live in. I get talking about the living and dying of entire species long before the fall. Do you think this made a dent in her Christian narrative? Then I get talking about hell. All the logistic that make it totally ridiculous not to mention being able to just track the development of the concept. Nothing. We Talk about heaven and free will. Nothing. The indoctrination is so reinforced I’m amazed I survived it. Apologetics are the line of defence against the thinking man.

Are apologetics about defending a belief system or an identity? Or are the two so intertwined that there's virtually no difference?

I would like MV get John Ankerberg a Christian television host, author, & speaker. He is an ordained Baptist minister & has authored or coauthored more than 150 books.

it was literally staggering to see rumsfelds briefings that used biblical quotations on their covers....like W T F...

Damn, I love Josh!

Mr Farina! Here, Go, Go, Go, Go, Go, Go! You don't do it! You just talk talk talk! Show me the chemistry! Come to the board and write!

Believing in God is like Believing in Santa Claus HO HO HO

My step son told me quietly that he doesn't believe in God, his mother puts her hand on his head to pray, l told him your mom killed the idea of believing in God, l told him she no longer prays around me because I say why are you praying is a possibility that you are separated from God. God is everywhere you are talking with him 24/7. As for belief l told him you got that right because any conception is the trapping of a God and imprisoning him in a belief, so your disbelief is your mother's fault

Here's the problem. By "healing" the audio, you demonstrated that miracles can happen; therefore, I'm obliged to believe in a god. Zeus, you've always been my favorite; so, I'll just pick you as the deity that healed the video.

"Everything wrong" - well, this is a fundamentalist position. I have nothing against fundamentalist atheism - just say so (and don't be surprised when your children or grandchildren turn out to be fundamentalist Christians - extremes meet).

Apologetics is what happens when faith is jettisoned.

Professional apologists are professional liars who make their living preaching to the already-long-ago converted. All of the name-brand apologists offer up personal stories that are loaded with bullshit, often straight-up plagiarized bullshit from some previous apologist. For example, Josh notes the few people say they were "logicked into their Christianity," but it's a stock trope of apologetics that the apologist began by trying to debunk Christianity, only to be convinced it was true. How many dozens of variants, to cite another example, have we gotten on the story about the apologist running into some "liberal college professor" (or fill in the other similar profession) on a plane flight/bus ride/train ride, etc. and dazzling them with their apologetic Facts & Logic, for which the heathen has no answer? They're despicable liars, and to me, their psychological motivation is of secondary interest to this fact.

How can you trust a book that over and over says man is sinful and then say the Bible is not corrupted by the sinful men writing it .

Seminary : school for the training of Apologetics = Religious politics...in Defence of the Lie ! " The Sunday Altar of Cain .

True apocalyptic language in Revelation is offensive. Maybe that was the INTENT.

Cornholio

If you were honest you'd interview a critical biblical scholar thats christian. Such as Dan McClellan, Aaron higashi, or kevin Carnahan. All prominent on timtok

Apologists are completely off the rails. It's be prepared to defend your faith to the one to ask, not go out and be a dick on the internet

In short, much of what goes by the name 'apologetics' is not apologetics, but politicking (sophistical point scoring); the term means, or used to mean, speaking in defence of something (or other). Apologia requires the whole logia bit .. word, speech, function, principle, and point .. to make it apo about, on, for. Alex O'Connor is one of the very few genuine apologians - i.e. speaking in defence of belief in unbelief (in any particular kind of 'god'); Bishop Barron is one of the many pleasant but rather iffy apologists - e.g. speaking about belief (in a particular kind of 'God'), but rarely addressing belief and rational assessment of belief in 'belief' (in a very particular concept of the term < God > ). Keep the Faith; tell the truth, shame the devil, and let the demons shriek. God bless. ;o)

Revelation 11:19. Revelation 12:1-5. Psalms 2:1-7?! AAol. Do not sin

I was looking forward to an intellectual discussion on apologetics, but instead was treated to 43mins of undergrad gossip session, where I was even expecting to hear ‘and they also smell really badly’ No examples of poor apologetics, no deeper analysis of the spectrum of apologetics practitioners. So much so, that I don’t think any of your really know what an apologetics is. It’s certainly not personal testimony, it’s not communicating the vibe of one’s beliefs, it’s not mindlessly defending something one knows little about. Apologists that do these things are the silly low fruit of KZfaq critics. Unless it’s a rational and logical treatise on the texts themselves, the various ways they have been interpreted, referring back to contentious terms and their Greek or Hebrew root words and yes within an overall context of belief, then you ain’t been speaking to apologists. And much like academia, it depends upon whose previous interpretations they craft their own ‘defense’. Apologetics isn’t speculation. That’s just theological speculation. So when you hear a spirited debate on say, Millenialism (pre, post, a) it’s not necessarily apologetics, but they are most often well constructed analysis of the root text. Their conclusions on the other hand can be pretty random But if it’s all your positions that the Christian faith is bunkum, then go after that rather than the poor hopeless sods you’ve chosen to use as your strawmen. That’s the most frustrating thing about the 43 wasted minutes - nary a single example or specific case.. And to the giggling school girl who was accused of being a white, male….blah blah blah, and you said ‘you don’t know what to do with that!, For the love of God man, use your intellect to deconstruct what they said, who said it, and in what context. It’s patently obvious that the next wave of intellectual subversion comes under the name ‘positionality’. It’s a sleeper theory that has now floated into government departments and academia to nullify the opinions of the people they disagree with. Universities themselves have always had bias statements when doing external focus research, but the new Positionality statements will clearly state how and where the opinions of certain groups (the biggest) is formally proportionalised (downgraded, watered down etc) Research ain’t research anymore To end, pick up you damn game, or get the hell out of the road

Your stances on apologists apply to atheists/agnostics such as yourselves as well. You left Christianity bc of logical inconsistencies but now everything you read and study is with the mindset of secularism and there is nothing beyond the physical world. You approach academia with that preconceived notion as well. No matter the evidence, you’ll twist and turn it to fit a strictly agnostic point of view, like what you mentioned about the empires duking it out to be on top for when Gods judgment comes. There’s no concept of that in Islam but you accept that POV, even though it’s not found in any writings, because it fits your worldview.

Need to get rid of the "apologists" term....it sounds like the Christian sin-burden. No man should apologize for speaking the true words of their gods. There shouldn't be any apologizing, unless its one of those Moon cults.

The fact of Jesus’ grace is something you can’t reason with. I’ve experienced enough to know. He’s awaiting on you all.

Mr Kipp Davis should refrain from doing interviews .He doesn't have the verbal currency to make any sort of substantial deposit into the conversation.

Jesus power❤ proof starting now

Atheist historical jesus apologetics is the worst.

*The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth because we obey God's commandment to ''prove all things'' not by secretly reveling truths to us through dreams which vary from one person to another. And 99+% of all believers just ignore Him because of laziness.* *That said, I now tell you that the Antichrist has used blackmagic to change every bible on Earth into his own UNholy word right in our homes!!!* *A lot of end time prophecies are being perfectly fulfilled which the vast majority of believers are totally unaware of! And this one is key to understanding all the rest.* Amos 8:11 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:” Amos 8:12 “And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, (it was "south"), they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.” (KJV) *The first verse was written about what has already happened because there are no longer ANY HOLY BIBLES ON EARTH!!! They've ALL been supernaturally attacked in fulfillment of prophecy. And the second verse was written about when the films that document the bible changes are no longer able to be seen, which are the ONLY place on Earth where God's TRUE words can still be found without Satan's words mixed in, there and in written lists like the one at (amos) (8) (.) (org). So investigate this now because soon, they are going to cut the lights!* *I had studied and memorized scripture out of the same bible since 1961, and began seeing changes in it that I couldn't explain in 2014. Then in 2016 I got my first computer and finally found out why and saw that there were other true followers of Christ that "prove all things" like we were commanded, who had found proof of what those verses originally said in the KJV just like I remembered....so I watched HUNDREDS of them over the last 7 years!* *Many prophecies are being fulfilled right now that only a tiny few are aware of. We all had previously misinterpreted them because we didn't consider that they could happen supernaturally. For those of us who can see this, it's the most exciting and faith strengthening thing that's ever happened in our lives!* *As a very effective tool for saving others from this "strong delusion" I saved some of the best films for showing many of the most important changes, and for pointing out all of the scripture that was written about this in my playlist which you can find by typing into KZfaq (PROOF OF BIBLE CHANGE RESIDUE JUNKIE ). I don't make films or money with my channel btw.* *I pray that many more will be blessed with eyes to see this incredible proof of the validity and accuracy of God's prophetic word, and how close we are to our Savior's return!!!* *PLEASE share that playlist because it's bringing strayed believers running back to God and they are writing to tell me so! Halleluyah!!!* 👉❕👉 *Whenever anyone is reading **_ANY_** bible now without knowing a **_LOT_** about what the thousands of supernatural changes in it are, Satan is laughing his tail off! And here's why, he understands why rat poison is 100% effective. It's 99.95% corn. Rats can't resist it and it kills every rat that eats it! They won't eat it if there's enough poison in it that they can taste it. He could have changed all the words, but then everyone would notice and quit reading it.👉👉👉 And he wouldn't have changed what he did if it wouldn't bring people to Hell!!! There are changes on every page of the KJV, more than any other translation...go figure. So if you aren't seeing changes on every page, you're doing exactly what Satan wants, eating his "rat poison"! I haven't opened my bible, (a KJV) that I got in 1961 and cherished my whole life, in over 6 years and will never read another one the rest of my life. I learned so much about this that I can't even LOOK at it now without getting a creepy feeling like looking at a Ouija board or a voodoo doll or something! 👉I give everybody the same advise, first watch all the films in my playlist which you'll find by just typing in (proof of bible change residue junkie) for a good understanding of how this is perfectly fulfilling many end time prophecies which we had all previously misinterpreted and to receive a 1,000% increase in faith,👉 then print out the PDF brother Tim has at his KJV restoration project at (I have to write this website in code or skroo tube won't post this comment!) amos ate dot oh are gee, of a long list of the changes that have been documented.👉 And then instead of reading any bible, watch as many of the other videos those channels have made on this as you can before the lights go out and Amos **8:12** is fulfilled too. That way you'll only be reading God's words instead of a mixture of His and Satan's. There'll be time to read Satan's rat poison later if you still want to.* *God bless!!!* ❤✝️💪 *P.S. After people have taken all of the required 💉's, they will apply a quantum dot invisible tattoo to their head or hand, but anyone who has had just one has a bluetooth mac # that can be read by any smart phone and when you walk through the deal at an airport they know if you have it. The no buying or selling is happening incrementally and will be complete when cash is abolished and worship can be defined as "to fear, obey and trust in someone or something" which is what they are doing with the Beast System and the Image of the Beast, (NWO and TV!). They also now have triple helix DNA, are no longer human and if they have children they won't be human either! Yes, this absolutely is it, and👉 if you write me at the address on my about 👈page I'll send you 15 **_shocking_** films that will PROVE it to anyone who has the courage to watch them.*

apologetics is salve for buyer's remorse. KEvron