EXCLUSIVE: Monk on Infest, Stormgate Creep Changes, and More

  Рет қаралды 8,190

BeoMulf

BeoMulf

4 ай бұрын

‪@KillerPigeon‬ and I sat down with ‪@FrostGiantStudios‬'s Kevin 'Monk' Dong, Lead Competitive Designer for Stormgate to talk about the contentious Infest ability on Gaunts, how he expects to revert Creep Camps, why some of the best abilities in RTS games are passive, and more!
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StarCraft 2 is a military science fiction real-time strategy video game developed and released by Blizzard Entertainment.

Пікірлер: 78
@Envy_Dragon
@Envy_Dragon 4 ай бұрын
13:40 I have to respond to this anecdote here by pointing out that in the related example, the three options were the Destroyer (which was a Void Ray but without any of the stuff that made void rays cool), the Arbiter (which was a fan-favorite from Broodwar but every ability it offered was eclipsed by a top-bar ability you got instead, for free, without worrying about it dying), and the Void Ray (which, when massed, can win every single mission in the game trivially, and that's without taking into account that LotV gave them a conditional range increase that let them outrange defensive stuctures). 98% of people picked Void Ray the same reason 98% of people would pick Superman over their neighbour Doug to cover their back in a streetfight.
@radiobrain94
@radiobrain94 4 ай бұрын
Finally, the man we've been waiting to hear from!!
@Klosterhasi
@Klosterhasi 4 ай бұрын
thanks for doing these! im so hyped for this game & the way they are going about their communication with us, its really cool
@ProuvaireJean
@ProuvaireJean 4 ай бұрын
It's always a pleasure to hear Monk talk about the design and development decisions made for this game.
@florianhaffner3910
@florianhaffner3910 4 ай бұрын
Too bad that the Game looks terrible and is a cheap copy of other games. Very underwhelming
@Vadymaus
@Vadymaus 4 ай бұрын
@@florianhaffner3910, What is a cheap copy really? It feels like you were just offended by this product for some reason.
@alexlawson4173
@alexlawson4173 4 ай бұрын
@@florianhaffner3910 It's fun af to play though. they can always change how it looks, and honestly I think it's already growing on me and many other people.
@attractivegd9531
@attractivegd9531 4 ай бұрын
Monk is a smart guy.
@Terracronz
@Terracronz 4 ай бұрын
Just want to throw out there that I actually like the map with the siege camp, it’s pretty cool to think about when you can take that camp, like 2-base/3-Rax get medtechs get the catapult and move out, I really like that it adds a timing attack that might otherwise not be as strong
@Se2b11
@Se2b11 4 ай бұрын
Great interview so far. When was this filmed?
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
Monday - first day of the Steam Next Fest! I've got one more with Savop, one of the Lead Producers
@Huihuihui3
@Huihuihui3 4 ай бұрын
For the "free unit" topic, would it make sense to only allow the free units if enemy units died on the creep (pre-tier 2/3)? I saw an interview with Winter and MaNa where MaNa talked about never using the pylon that spawns creep. I'm just thinking of a way to incentivize it's use more and to tune it backfor early game.
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
Honestly I just think the answer is to lock it behind the T2 upgrade. The dot and slow is good, but spawn is probably a bit too volatile for early game. T2 is less of a problem while still being interesting
@fishlobs
@fishlobs 4 ай бұрын
thanks for this video, well said :)
@eduardoserpa1682
@eduardoserpa1682 4 ай бұрын
I really like how early Infest interacts with creep, I hope some aspect of that can be kept and possibly extended for other factions. If the Fiend spawn can't be stay, I'd hope Infest could at least net you more Anima for the top bar abilities, because that's also a cool part of the faction design, and it would tie those things together.
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
Remember monk was alluding to the third faction having a different way to interact with creeps!
@ixxrossorxxi6291
@ixxrossorxxi6291 4 ай бұрын
Video cuts off near the end.
@piershanson1784
@piershanson1784 4 ай бұрын
I think that free units aren't bad per say, more just hard to balance (or rather, a change to free units has a much bigger effect than other changes might). Clash of clans did it decently with witches for th9 - 11 (assuming no siege machines are allowed)
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
It's just a really hard thing to balance - units that cost infinite resources such time or energy (which is effectively time) have to be reasonable when compared with units that cost finite resources. It's not impossible, but that's a hard balance to find
@giuseppebonatici7169
@giuseppebonatici7169 4 ай бұрын
almost all modern instances of free units, including fiends, are countered with AoE. keeping that in mind, I would go the carrier route: make them cost money when they do not come from brutes, not tons, but some (like 3-15 lums), so they become a resource syphon. maybe stacks of infest could reduce the cost to zero. and play with investing to increase the efficiency of it with research so the enemy has more time to invest in AoE and create an effective counter to it. infest, by itself, create an additional problem: scales with army AoE. so, if you make it cost money to create fiends through infest, the problems that arise from infest with siege engine get somewhat mitigated as becomes more of an all-in, and is somewhat more balanceable. Carriers are a problem, but that's is because is the ultimate mass unit of SC2. fiends can be countered, eventually.
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
@@giuseppebonatici7169 it would need to be a toggle then, not just a passive + otherwise players could royally ruin their macro just by having gaunts convert
@giuseppebonatici7169
@giuseppebonatici7169 4 ай бұрын
@@BeoMulf that would actually be funny. but yeah, the player should have control of how it is played, but then it becomes a potential noob trap if underpowered, and that would be worse than unbalanced. maybe it is meant to be close to useless and underwhelming, as a background flavor of infernal, and a pathing nuisance, like zergling, but without the dps.
@nuruddinshah684
@nuruddinshah684 4 ай бұрын
22:45 To 22:54 THANK YOU. Not everyone can be MLG pro. (not to mention the cheese...its one thing to fight a cheese player but what happen when you fight for real? seen you been practice on anti-cheese stuff
@VSastrocompasss
@VSastrocompasss 4 ай бұрын
❤ time value scout ❤
@xxxyyy5080
@xxxyyy5080 4 ай бұрын
Pls make high ground meaningful in stormgate. Best thing about BW is their high ground mechanics.
@eduardoserpa1682
@eduardoserpa1682 4 ай бұрын
That's a cool one. Even if it's something small like a 10% damage reduction or something.
@mg0
@mg0 4 ай бұрын
Some feedback from a viewer: * Parts of the game are really well done. Medic and infernal drop ships seem smooth. I like the turrets that change depending on occupation. Engine seems capable. This version improves on the last in many ways. * Style is incongruent. Lancers make no sense. In combat if guns are available humans don't ever fight with swords. * Battles and units are slow and bullet sponges make them boring. I know starcraft 2 had insta-gib for the armies but this has the opposite problem. * Dislike the names luminite and thereum. Are they money? What is the setting? We don't have those on earth and if it's a different planet why does it look so green with trees? Minerals and vespene gas(as an exotic fuel) make sense. Similar issue with the unit names. Wtf is an XO or a Weaver. Demons should be cool AF not boring slow bug things. I think it's ok to call a unit marine or soldier. * Lots of theories from the team, which is good, but they should look at data and react. Alternatively, it's been nearly a decade since alphago. AI/RL should be used to tease out inbalances if possible. * No linux client so I can't actually play. * Art style is ok not great but it all needs polish, which is understandable. We want starcraft 3 not budget starcraft. Hope the team takes their time and works hard to make it actually great even if it takes much longer than initially planned. I am rooting for the team and this game even if my feedback seems harsh.
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
*Lancers making no sense isn't necessarily true - I'm assuming there's some in-universe reason why melee is a thing, but we are lacking lore *Agreed on luminite and thereum - kinda hard to say and most battles happen on Earth so I'm not realy sure where these new resources came from all of the sudden? I assume we get a lore answer eventually *Decade since alphastar - the server requirements to train the system for that are far more than Frost Giant has funding for, and without super close management will tease out imbalances that don't exist in the real world (blink stalkers are broken if used perfectly, but that isn't really possible)
@teachmehowtodoge1737
@teachmehowtodoge1737 4 ай бұрын
I hope the 3rd faction or maybe a future faction is an AI-powered structures and units. The main HQ is called the "Hive" shaped like a glowing ball or a pyramid that has complex lights that acts as the supercomputer. The backstory is that they were invented to stop planet invaders but it went out of control and became sentient. The supply depots are called "Servers" and primary unit builders are called "Automaton factory". Anyway, I'm just throwing ideas. All the best to the game.
@zacrusk5274
@zacrusk5274 4 ай бұрын
What do you know!?
@TagaBearClaw
@TagaBearClaw 4 ай бұрын
make high ground great again
@joshmeyer8172
@joshmeyer8172 4 ай бұрын
5 years from now monk will be saying something like, "the specific problem with the infest mechanic was that it made infernals snowball too hard."
@Kenf333
@Kenf333 4 ай бұрын
Centralized equivalence balancing theory confirms it. xD I like the idea of the habitat (supply depot in starcraft) upgrade, giving it +5 supply, makes it easier for newer players to be on top of their supply count without constantly having to worry about their depots. I really regret having backed out of the Kickstarter twice, should've stuck with it, the founder status hopefully just becomes a token status and nothing more in the future, same with the other bonuses that can hopefully be purchased with steam credit in the future. Maybe I can get beta access via the sign-up. Please give the custom games browser a lot of features, it will hopefully be the core social/fun mode away from competitive mode. Remember, having fun is more important than tooth-grinding competition at every moment! (Hint: Lighten up on the SBMM for certain modes!)
@Kenf333
@Kenf333 4 ай бұрын
tf whered my reply go heh i was saying pls fully flesh out the custom games browser to give us back the fun/social core mode that was the rtses of the past giving us a break from competitive n sbmm! Competitive games are lacking this nowadays!
@Klosterhasi
@Klosterhasi 4 ай бұрын
why is there 6 minutes of black screen at the end
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
Because I apparently managed to screw up the edit smh
@teachmehowtodoge1737
@teachmehowtodoge1737 4 ай бұрын
@43:45 black screen? 👀
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
Yeah, something happened with premier - I checked the edit and now it's gone. I'm clearly a dummy somewhere
@ArchaicTTV
@ArchaicTTV 4 ай бұрын
once you get 6 hornets, taking out infernal towers (and then getting free harass) is so easy that im concerned Monk doesn't think they are that good against ground units/buildings
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
I mean, 6 hornets is a pretty significant investment - and if your opponent has gotten to 6 hornets without you having more counterplay than one Shroudstone, something's gone pretty wrong
@ArchaicTTV
@ArchaicTTV 4 ай бұрын
@@BeoMulf where did i say i only had one shroudstone? And in what world is 150/75 a significant investment? These things took out 3 of them all next to eachother, while gaunts threw axes at them
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
@@ArchaicTTV if your opponent is going to commit to 6 hornets like that, that's 450 therium - you should probably have a shadow spire
@ArchaicTTV
@ArchaicTTV 4 ай бұрын
i know we are both aware that infernal has a lack of scouting options, its very easy for those hornets to end up being a surprise. I think its pretty bad design that they do as much damage as they do to the point where 3 towers and a handful of gaunts don't touch them. I think blind countering by building a unit that only counters air is a poor choice@@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
I mean, Hornets take a good time to build even with the solar habitat. If they are sweeping in with 6 hornets they've done a good job of hiding them or the game has developed much later. I do think building units should probably have one more armor (or the equivalent in Stormgate - 0/1 armor breakdowns don't work the same way they do in SC2) but I think calling hornets particularly good against buildings is a bit of a stretch and more of a statement about the current lack of good infernal AA options
@Erupted89
@Erupted89 4 ай бұрын
They should just make ‘infest’ an active ability for the gaunt
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
It was in a different build - attached to the T2 Gaunt upgrade (at the time called "Hemoglaive Infusion," now "Reaper Rush")
@vexienroe
@vexienroe 4 ай бұрын
20% seems extremely low for skill expression. But it does lower the curve for us noobs I guess. Just kinda removes the want to do it at all unless you are in a tourney.
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
I think I'd be happy with 20% on average with some units providing more and some less - which we already have. Evac save micro is closer to 100%, brute split is probably like 5%, etc
@vexienroe
@vexienroe 4 ай бұрын
@@BeoMulf yeah evac micro is prolly too strong, with atlas at least, but def worrying if you dont give any other 100%. The 5-39% increases I think most people just would never engage with at minimum i would think it needs a 40% to have people engage with it. Because you get way more value out of having good macro and 20-30% increase is not worth the time, (obviously it would change for high level games) which maybe is a good way to balance low mmr versus high mmr with the same patch, which is something starcraft has struggled with historically but i still have to say not a fan of being parting and only getting 20% if you are the best in the world at it, because only the best in the world would actually get the full 20%
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
@@vexienroe I'm not saying it's too strong - it's a great option for skill expression and has counterplay. That's exactly what you want
@vexienroe
@vexienroe 4 ай бұрын
@@BeoMulf well right now there is a lot of telegraphing so for instance an atlas sieged will always die to an atlas dropped without a chance to get return damage, its nice that the exo's have hitscan damage for it, but they are also outranged by it, so for infernal yeah shadowfliers are a good counter, you can pop out close to 30 of them with 1 production structure with enough top bar energy. but a wraith counter is tougher, you could say just scout better but thats an example of sc2 skill expression 100% all or nothing. It's clearly a good show of skill but not if all the other races get 5%-20% you know what i mean?
@Yayadays111
@Yayadays111 4 ай бұрын
There’s just a lot of things I disagree with and that’s probably why I feel SG feels more like a really mid 6/10 game atm. Free units in sc2 and sg mess up the pathing and AI way too much to be good. They are either non existent like broodlings from buildings or too cost efficient. Lancer being a good example of interesting unit is just weird. Sure maybe it is to the players, but who’s finding lancer an interesting unit to watch? Compare that against a good player with zergling or stalkers,absolute night and day difference . Same thing with the brute split, issue isn’t the split mechanics, it’s just a giant cluster. As for the creep and top bar ability, will be interesting to see how it can balance out and not become a massive snowball mechanics.
@poppy3318
@poppy3318 4 ай бұрын
I'll come back to check if there's chapters. Just get on with it.
@OmniSkepticSC
@OmniSkepticSC 4 ай бұрын
He was specifically talking about Infest and listing what he thought the most important things about it were, which was a bit worrying for me because he didn't talk *at all* about how fiends clutter up visibility or readability by spawning constantly on the front lines. I was also confused why nobody questioned him on why you'd want to make a manual brute split give fiends shroud health rather than just making the manual detonation give you 2 fiends and automatic detonation giving you 1 or something along those lines. Seems far more intuitive to me I also think that the comment on the shadowflyer was silly. The thing wrong with shadowflyer is not how much AoE damage it deals. It has to do with how it just teleports on top of the opponent with no counter-play. Bewildering that the AoE damage would be the first thing one would mention EDIT: Something is buggy with my response to @tuhaggis so I'm just gonna copy paste it - "It would be a 50% increase to the fiend portion of the brute, but given that is only roughly half of the unit (the brute itself being the other half), it would be a 50% increase of 50% of the unit which is roughly an increase of 25% to the unit. Whether that hits the arbitrarily set percentage goal better or worse seems to me to not take priority over the intuitiveness of the gameplay, of which I think lower level players are incentivized to manually split if they know they get an extra fiend (but will not find themselves splitting for an esoteric and abstract notion of getting shroud health). The top bar abilities should never, ever be used to balance the regular attack or movement of individual units. That’s just bad game design and planning for failure down the road"
@tuhaggis
@tuhaggis 4 ай бұрын
As he said, he doesn't want the difference between automatic split and manual split to be so great. If you get 2 manual and 1 auto, that's a 50% difference in how the unit performs in low level vs high. He wanted the difference to be smaller, and shroud health is 25% on top of the base, which is more in line with their targets. You can pop a shield on the flying unit to absorb the hits. That's counter play, you just needed to learn more about how the game works to see that.
@OmniSkepticSC
@OmniSkepticSC 4 ай бұрын
@@tuhaggis It would be a 50% increase to the fiend portion of the brute, but given that is only roughly half of the unit (the brute itself being the other half), it would be a 50% increase of 50% of the unit which is roughly an increase of 25% to the unit. Whether that hits the arbitrarily set percentage goal better or worse seems to me to not take priority over the intuitiveness of the gameplay, of which I think lower level players are incentivized to manually split if they know they get an extra fiend (but will not find themselves splitting for an esoteric and abstract notion of getting shroud health). The top bar abilities should never, ever be used to balance the regular attack or movement of individual units. That’s just bad game design and planning for failure down the road
@CashMoneyMoore
@CashMoneyMoore 4 ай бұрын
The reason why free units worked in wc3 is because heroes gain experience. If your free units died there were consequences
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
There are consequences in SG as well - at least playing against Vanguard, as they have the Veterancy mechanic
@VeneziaBeats
@VeneziaBeats 4 ай бұрын
What is the deal of demons and space marines fighting on the forest, its goofy
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
Where are aliens from an alternate dimension supposed to fight humans? Earth has forests, after all
@VeneziaBeats
@VeneziaBeats 4 ай бұрын
@@BeoMulf but why? Why not a destroyed City or something hellish, something cooler, its just makes everything looks out of place
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
@@VeneziaBeats I wouldn't be surprised to see that later - but atm it's probably not where they are dedicating significant polish. We won't have truly great maps until the community gets its hands on the map editor anyways (with all respect to frost giant)
@bobsagget4061
@bobsagget4061 4 ай бұрын
They said they thought it would be cool if they had a Mechs fighting a dragon lol. I think it is cool. Its not starcraft or warcraft. Games a lot of fun. Also the back drop of the lore offers a lot of different tile sets to create future maps. Game is really early in development so im excited for whats to come.
@BeoMulf
@BeoMulf 4 ай бұрын
@@bobsagget4061 plus they don't have a dedicated map design person - each map had different people working on it to test specific concepts. We also know of at least 3 tile sets they will use, and I wouldn't be surprised to see more post EA
@game_jinx
@game_jinx 4 ай бұрын
monk attempts to simplify arguments with things like binary or non binary.....unit interactions often surpass even the most intelligent game developers. asymmetrical balance, to keep players interested in a new game, will require a broader and deeper understanding than a linear anecdote, like binary or non binary. scalability is a logarithmic concept, often not easily designed out, once put in. a long road of learning will still exist for Monk. is he like 25?
@tuhaggis
@tuhaggis 4 ай бұрын
It sounds like you are the one who is confused.
@geobooo
@geobooo 4 ай бұрын
CANCER audio quality for real
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