Book Frodo vs Movie Frodo: Did Peter Jackson RUIN the Lord of the Rings’ Hero?

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Күн бұрын

Welcome to Ep. 8 of Movies vs. Manuscripts, where we are analyzing Book Frodo vs. Movie Frodo! Do you think this scene in the Fellowship of the Ring does Frodo justice?
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Timestamps:
0:00 Gandalf Faced The Nazgul Alone...
1:19 Movie Recap
2:20 Character/Timeline/Location Changes
4:03 Plot Changes
10:34 Closing Thoughts
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Sources:
"The Fellowship of the Ring," directed by Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema, 2001.
"The Two Towers," directed by Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema, 2002.
"The Return of the King," directed by Peter Jackson, New Line Cinema, 2003.
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#tolkien #tolkienlore #lordoftherings #lotr #peterjackson #newlinecinema #warnerbros #jrrtolkien #nazgul #fellowshipofthering #frodostabbed #arwen

Пікірлер: 96

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

Read along with me as I go through this series! 📖🎧 Claim your *FREE copy* of Andy Serkis’ narration of the Fellowship of the Ring today & support the channel at the same time: www.audibletrial.com/factorfantasyfellowship 👈🏼

@franklincerpico7702 18 күн бұрын

You have me hooked on this series man.

@factorfantasyweekly 17 күн бұрын

Thank you! Your comment and others like it help motivate me to continue with what will likely become a year long series 😂

@fr.andygutierrez5356 18 күн бұрын

“…and yes, calm down. We are going to talk about Glorfindel.” 😂

@Mathemagical55 18 күн бұрын

Sam's never left the Shire before, has no idea where they are, and doesn't know the location of Rivendell. Movie Sam "We are six days from Rivendell."

@Son-of-Gondor 18 күн бұрын

I neglected to say this when the last video dropped, so I’ll say it now. I like the little hobbit you use to represent you.

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

Thanks! 😂

@jassijoanna3466 17 күн бұрын

I wish you would make longer episodes, I could listen to you talk about the books for hours!!

@sameehkins5957 17 күн бұрын

The "Sam is chief hero" is commonly misunderstood by people. If you read the full letter with this quote, you will see that Tolkien isn't discussing who is the main hero. This quote comes from a comparison Tolkien made between Aragorn's love and Sam's love. Within this comparison, Tolkien said Sam is more important than Aragorn (not anyone else). If Sam was the main hero, you would think that in all of Tolkien's writings that he would have dedicated at least a paragraph explaining why Sam is the chief hero. Nope. Instead, Tolkien relegates it to ONE mentioning. Not only that, but it is also relegated as a side comment since it appears in parenthesis as: (chief hero's). After that, it is never mentioned again. So if Sam was the main hero, do you not think more would be written about him as to why he is the main hero? Meanwhile, in Silmarllion, the only Hobbit mentioned in that book is Frodo. Sam, on the other hand, isn't mentioned at all except for "Frodo and his servant." Fact is Tolkien never says Sam is the main hero "of LOTR" he just says chief hero. Chief hero of what? The discussion in the letter isnt about who is the main hero of the story, so why would he randomly bring this up? Because Sam is the focus of the comparison that Tolkien makes between Aragorn and Sam. That's why "chief hero" was used.

@factorfantasyweekly 17 күн бұрын

Great points, but even so, Sam doesn’t need to have paragraphs dedicated to him or have things be written specifically from his perspective for him to be a/the main character. Ultimately the epic saga of LOTR has no “main character”, but in the story of Frodo and Sam’s journey, Sam is more than a supporting act. He saves Frodo time and again, and is the hero without being forthright about it. Frodo says it himself, and is spot on, when he says he wouldn’t have gotten far without Sam. Frodo did the one thing Sam couldn’t have done, which is carry the ring, but other than that Sam did *everything*. So obviously (as I state in the video), Frodo is the main protagonist as he is the one who carries the ring. However, when people watch the movie they get the feeling at the end that Sam is the hero. I mean the climax is literally Sam carrying Frodo up the mountain. And then afterwards, helping him outside so he doesn’t get burnt alive by lava. It’s more than just the conventional “who’s the hero?” It’s the feeling you get deep down when you watch it. Obviously everyone has their own feelings, so if someone feels Frodo is the main guy then great! I encourage that. Personally though, Sam comes off as the hero, but beautifully hidden behind Frodo, which is the literary genius of Tolkien. Thanks for your comment, I love these convos! 🙏🏼 And you make a great point about that Tolkien quote’s context, thank you for pointing it out.

@Niko-hi5my 16 күн бұрын

I'd never have called Sam the chief hero either, as there is no chief hero. LotR is more about friendship and bravery than about heroism after all. But Sam is the main protagonist in the sense that the whole Two Towers and Return of the King stories are told from Sam's point of view. Just as the much of the other half of the story is told from Merry and Pippins POV, when one of them is present.

@aaronharkins4331 18 күн бұрын

I think it’s foolish not to make Frodo the main character. He’s brave and the wisest hobbit. It’s saying wisdom is not that important despite Gandalf being powerful and his greatest asset is his wisdom and compassion which is just another form of wisdom. I’ll die on this hill: Frodo is a tragic hero and since no one wants to face that kind of fate he’s underrated. It muddled the themes and messages of the book to not stand by Frodo. Tolkien also said the Frodo deserves ALL HONORS.

@c.j.nyssen6987 18 күн бұрын

‘Long live the Halflings! Praise them with great praise! Cuio i Pheriain anann! Aglar’ni Pheriannath! Praise them with great praise, Frodo and Samwise! Daur a Berhael, Conin en Annûn! Eglerio! Praise them! Eglerio! A laita te, laita te! Andave laituvalmet! Praise them! Cormacolindor, a laita tárienna! Praise them! The Ring-bearers, praise them with great praise!’

@lilimajor3797 18 күн бұрын

This is so beautifully written, thank you!

@evekurocieru 3 күн бұрын

I never felt that way about Frodo in the movies. But then again I had already read the books since childhood so probably just saw Frodo in the movie the same as he was in my head, and he's my favorite character. I like that Frodo's strength is depicted as being his calmness and resilience, not showing him as being a "brave" swashbuckler/ typical hero. No one would be afraid of the Nazgul if they can just be told off by Hobbits in the films, and Frodo needing to be protected at first makes his growth and decision to go off alone later more poignant. I find Sam in the movie kind of annoying though, too sappy and "a goody 2 shoes" with no flaws.

@Niko-hi5my 16 күн бұрын

This is where the movie-Frodo weakness begins. Great content! Hope you will continue to point out the differences in Two Towers and Return of the King, where this gets even worse...

@elfdream2007 18 күн бұрын

I have a good friend from the original fandom back from when the movies were first released. She likes the movies but the changes in Frodo's character is still a sore spot for her. She was looking forward to seeing 'brave' Frodo.

@LordCandyDish 18 күн бұрын

The 1978 Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings does a good job of showing brave Frodo, there's also a number of scenes directly lifted by Jackson for his adaptation.

@Niko-hi5my 16 күн бұрын

This scene also includes the sentence 'Give up the halfling, she-elf', the most un-Tolkien-like line in the trilogy.

@frederikkfoglfrey8664 15 күн бұрын

Why is this the most un-tolkien like line in your opinion? I think it’s something he could have written, there surely are other lines, on top of my head is „not the beard!“ 😂

@Niko-hi5my 15 күн бұрын

@@frederikkfoglfrey8664 well, 'not the beard' is an un-Tolkien scene/moment, but the wording is quite neutral. I just think the word 'She-Elf' is not Tolkien's style at all, it's very Hollywood to me. I might be wrong of course

@evekurocieru 3 күн бұрын

@@Niko-hi5myseems like a modern way to convey that the person speaking is.. a jerk

@mevb 3 күн бұрын

Actually, after Frodo gets stabbed by the Morgûl blade and Aragorn and the hobbits hurry away from Weathertop, Sam says "It is six days to Rivendell, he'll never make it!", so the timeline have been condensed and also, it is a time cut as you can't spend time showing the passing of days when you have a fastpaced scene with urgency.

@ace9924 12 күн бұрын

Frodo was more upbeat in the Books even after getting stabbed.

@Siosal01 18 күн бұрын

Yes! Thank you! I've been waiting for this one as the impact on the story and characters was massively affected by the events in this episode. Also, regarding audible: May you live to be a thousand years old sir. Edit: Darn, America only. Still, it was a nice thought.

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

Dang, that sucks! Hopefully they expand it in the future as I can’t give Andy Serkis enough praise. 🙏🏼

@lilimajor3797 18 күн бұрын

I just started the video, but I’m already so glad and grateful you did this. In the last movie-book comparison video you didn’t really analyse the scene where Frodo gets stabbed on Weathertop, and that’s the scene I most anticipated in the series, because it’s just so different from the movies and it really shows how effing awesome Frodo actually is. Thank you for your fantastic work, you’re one of my most favourite channels who work with LOTR.

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

I appreciate it! Thanks for watching 🙏🏼

@lilimajor3797 18 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweeklyOkay, so I just finished the video and you very much did this justice. I agree wholeheartedly with your interpretation of Frodo. If you look at it closely he’s really badass in the books. One thing though: I’m not quite sure if chief hero equals main character in this instance. I’d rather word it as Sam being ONE of the main characters. I think when he really comes forth in the books as a one of the main characters is when the perspective changes around the time Frodo and Sam are at the Dead Marshes, or even at Emin Muil. From that part on it’s Sam’s perspective, we often see Frodo through his eyes. After Cormallen though (and maybe even in Mordor still) it’s again Frodo’s perspective if I remember correctly. And at the very end, we come full circle, back at Bag End with Sam. So even though we started off with Frodo, we ended with Sam, and that’s why I think both of them are definitive main characters. I separate the roles of main character and hero, though I don’t know if it’s meant to be like that. (I also kinda count Aragorn as an MC bcz he has so much influence on the story). Your hobbit persona is freaking adorable! Thank you again for this masterpiece!

@factorfantasyweekly 17 күн бұрын

Great points! I agree 🙏🏼

@Niko-hi5my 16 күн бұрын

Also I don't think the Nazgul draw swords in the book. That appears to be a small change, and yes it looks awesome, but it symbolizes how Jackson made them a much more physical threat than in book, where they mainly induce immense fear in everyone through their sheer presence. The movie only manages to convey that feeling in the first Nazgul scene, after that they are pretty much action figures. The price for this is eventually paid in the siege of Minas Tirith. In the book, they circle the city the whole time, taking most of the courage of the defenders. In the movie there is one scene where they attack, then they are not seen again, except for the witchking scenes with Gandalf and Theoden. Doesn't make sense.

@Concreteowl 18 күн бұрын

Jackson doesn't weaken Frodo. He strengthens the Nazgul. The wound is much more serious, the threat much more immediate. Changing the character to Arwen makes sense too as she becomes a less passive and background character. Less just an ornament for Aragorn to win at the end of the story. In cinema you show that through action not words.

@jachyra9 18 күн бұрын

Jackson's Frodo has no agency. He is a weak, passive individual who relies on other people to make his decisions for him or save him from danger. Tolkien's Frodo not only stands up to the Nazgul but attempts to lead them away from his friends. Jackson's Frodo succumbs to fear paralysis, falls down and gets stabbed. Then Mommy... I mean Arwen... inexplicably shows up to take him to day care... I mean Rivendell. Having Frodo bravely face the Enemy and showing him actively resisting both the increasing intensity of his wound and the temptation of the Ring is called character building: by the time Frodo declares to the Council of Elrond that he will take the Ring to Mordor we believe not only that he means it, but that he actually could. I find it hard to believe Jackson's Frodo would complete a homework assignment. And speaking of Arwen, Tolkien's Arwen is not an "ornament" that Aragorn must win when he completes the CrossFit Games. She's the love of his life whom he must demonstrate his worth to by fulfilling his life's mission. That Tolkien doesn't show Arwen constantly mucking about with Aragorn and the rest of the characters doesn't make her a "passive" character. Between Frodo and Arwen you seem to genuinely not understand what constitutes a passive character as opposed to a proactive one.

@Siosal01 18 күн бұрын

I want to agree with you, but honestly I can't. I'd have accepted Arwen almost ANYWHERE else as long as it didn't impact the other characters. Instead, this resulted in decades of people saying "Why didn't they just give Sam the ring?". This sequence honestly undermined Frodo far too much.

@waynepurcell6058 7 күн бұрын

A real woman to love is wise and intelligent, offering her partner different perspectives of things he may have to tackle. That is NOT an ornament no matter what "modern" people in "modern times" think. The foundation of a house is not the first thing seen at its forefront, but it still lays beneath and keeps the house from collapsing.

@marknieuweboer8099 3 күн бұрын

Like I wrote in another comment section the real "hero" of the story is the Ring. I didn't mind the change of Frodo's character much. And I liked the glimpse of Isengard. So at this point I still was willing to give the movie a fair chance.

@tmbarton1961 16 күн бұрын

I never saw Frodo in the movie as weak. I saw him as one who chose to carry a terrible burden that no one else wanted to carry and carry out the mission to destroy it. That makes him a hero in the classical definition. The Ring, not Sauron, is the main villain in the LOTR series. It wants to return to its master Sauron so it is using it's powers of seduction, deceit and betrayal to coerce ringbearers to get what it wants. I viewed Samwise as the ideal friend or sponsor of an addict. He remains loyal even when his tormented friend rejects and/or abuses him. Seeing Frodo suffer under the Ring's influence made Samwise's pity and compassion for Frodo grow stronger. Without Samwise, Frodo would not have made it to Mt. Doom. It was the pity of Samwise that got Frodo into Mt Doom and it was the pity of Bilbo, incarnate in Gollum, that destroyed the Ring. Pity and compassion are emotions that Sauron deemed weak and useless, but they are powerful emotions that can help people endure great hardships and succeed in missions deemed impossible.

@factorfantasyweekly 16 күн бұрын

I love this view of things! Thanks for commenting. 👏🏼 Only thing I would amend is about the Ring and Sauron. As far as I understand it, the Ring is like a Horcrux (JK Rowling definitely took some inspiration from it) in the sense that the Ring *is* Sauron. Maybe I just understand it wrong, but I always viewed it as a part of him, not a separate entity with its own soul/brain. So by saying that the Ring is the main villain, you would be saying Sauron is the main villain, as they are one and the same.

@jachyra9 16 күн бұрын

Jackson's Frodo is weak. That he chooses to carry the Ring is because Jackson wouldn't have changed that aspect of the story, probably because he felt he couldn't. But his Frodo is still someone who relies on others to tell him what to do or save him from danger.

@tmbarton1961 16 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweekly The Ring is a part of Sauron but Sauron does not know where it is or who has it, therefore, it's like a LOTR version of a drone. It's mission is to get back to its master but it is limited by whomever carries it.

@tmbarton1961 16 күн бұрын

You sound like someone who thinks that evil can be overcome by sheer willpower. Tolkein did not believe that. He believed that mortals could not defeat evil; evil ends up defeating itself. Evil must be resisted even if it costs you your life. By resisting evil, evil makes decisions that end up defeating itself. The Ring is very similar to an addiction. Addiction can not be overcome by sheer willpower alone. It takes a social network to help an addict recover and stay sober.

@jachyra9 16 күн бұрын

@@tmbarton1961 - The Ring is not in any way similar to an addiction. And unless you knew Tolkien personally, you don't know for sure what he did or didn't believe.

@SuStel 9 күн бұрын

Pronunciation peeve: Bruinen is two syllables, not three. In both Quenya and Sindarin, ui is a diphthong. It isn't BRU-i-nen; it's BRUI-nen. It sounds kind of like BROOY-nen. P.S.: The three volumes of The Lord of the Rings are not a trilogy.

@guyrixon5406 14 күн бұрын

Sam sets out on the quest knowing little of the danger. Frodo, at least book-Frodo, knows a lot more. It takes a lot of courage to walk into danger knowing the true scale. Even the wise don't give Frodo proper credit for this. In the council, Elrond (IIRC) says that none of the hobbits would have dared leave the Shire if they knew the true danger; but Frodo does know.

@mitchellsmith4690 17 күн бұрын

Yes, he did.

@mevb 3 күн бұрын

In the director and writers commentary for Fellowship, writer Philpa Boyens states that what Arwen say is not a spell to make the spirit of the river attack the Nazgûl but a plea to help them. The chant "Nin o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer, Rimmo nin Bruinen, dan in Ulair!" translates into “Waters of the Misty Mountains, hear the word of power, rush, waters of Bruinen (Loudwater), against the Ringwraiths!”.

@gageriggs3914 15 күн бұрын

Yeah good luck targeting these movies. I read the books and saw the changes, and he still made the second greatest trilogy of all time

@factorfantasyweekly 15 күн бұрын

LOTR is my favorite trilogy of all time. 🤷🏼‍♂️ Analyzing the difference between the books and movies just makes me an ultra nerd and an even bigger fan. 😂 What’s your number one trilogy?

@markditoro8836 10 күн бұрын

The first time I finished reading the trilogy (early 1980s) I said to myself: "Oh, it was Sam's story the whole time." He had the last line of dialogue. He was the last of the ringbearers to leave Middle-Earth. But that's a discussion for much later in the chronology.

@jachyra9 9 күн бұрын

The Lord of the Rings isn't a trilogy. And it's not Sam's story.

@AntiDarkus 18 күн бұрын

Ever shut up why is there people trying to think that to the Lord of the rings franchise the movies that won 17 Oscars then any other movie franchise to be Harry Potter didn’t get any Oscars

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

Just wait, Harry Potter series coming soon too. 😂

@AntiDarkus 16 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweekly oh yeah, the Harry Potter HBO series that people do not like and don’t even appreciate who is a producing by J. K. Rowling The same woman who ruined the fantastic beasts films because she had to be the Director let’s face it. The series are not gonna live up to the Harry Potter movies despite not winning Oscars they’re still live up to this day let’s face it. Nobody wants to watch a 10 year old project to go through the same. Repeat from the same series especially especially JK Rowling as the producer besides we have the movies and people already are bashing already on the Harry Potter series wishing it to be canceled when I doubt it’s ever gonna win any Oscars

@factorfantasyweekly 15 күн бұрын

Well first I’m gonna analyze the HP movies vs the books. And then when the series comes out I’ll be curious to see how that goes. 😬 I’m nervous for it.

@AntiDarkus 14 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweekly I seriously doubt the Harry Potter series is gonna go well with JK as the producer it’s going to be disaster. If Game of Thrones that started a fresh start just to be to be a total flop on its last three seasons the same way could happen with Harry Potter and especially with J. K. Rowling being the producer the way how she ruined the fantastic beasts movies in the fans are already criticizing. Wishing it to be canceled. I say good luck because it will be a flop how the accolade is doing despite the Harry Potter movie is not winning Oscars. It’s still one of the top 10 best movie franchises of all time the chances a streaming series of the same story ever been better than the movies it’s like comparing to Andrew Garfield to Toby Maguire or Tom Holland

@AntiDarkus 9 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweekly the Harry Potter series is not gonna go well now, JK as producer

@KarlElvis 18 күн бұрын

This post-weathertop section is where the film starts to lose me. The changes to Frodo make zero sense, and sticking in wonder-woman Arwen in place of glorfindle immediately took me out of the narrative since it becomes a massive change to Aragorn’s story arc. While the chase is cinematically effective, I just can’t even re-watch this because it’s one of those utterly destructive plot changes Jackson made. Up til here I’ve mostly agreed with your assessments, but on this one, I wish you’d called out exactly how bad this section was in terms of plot and character integrity.

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

I believe it definitely deviates and I point that out quite clearly. Where I differ from most is that I separate the adaptation from the book and I think it still makes a great movie! But I also love the book. Just gotta view them as two separate stories pretty much. But yes, this section (and the next couple episodes 👀) is MASSIVELY different from Tolkien’s work.

@jachyra9 18 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweekly - But an adaptation is the book interpreted in a different medium. You can't separate one from the other. Additionally, Jackson and company aggressively promoted their adaptation as being faithful to the book, which of course it's not. And when the films don't work cinematically it's precisely because of that.

@KarlElvis 14 күн бұрын

@@factorfantasyweekly yeah, I generally compartmentalize that way, but LotR is my favorite book since I was 11, I’m just too close in to be objective here. Props your being better at that than I am. 😉

@RadicalEdward2 3 күн бұрын

Frodo is literally the Kenny of the movies.

@stephenwooten8661 18 күн бұрын

P.J. not only ruined most of the characters from the books, but he also didn't understand the story. One of the greatest acts of bravery in the history of Middle Earth is alone and wounded Frodo standing up to all nine Nazgul. Plus, I didn't need boss girl Arwen. She was added to the story to replace Eowyn as Aragorn's love interest (plus she was a nonblonde so you could tell them apart). As to Sam being the main character, I don't know. I always thought it was Frodo. Sam, as a character, changes the most, he goes from working class servant to rich landowner/mayor.

@kongzillatoho4558 15 күн бұрын

Movie Frodo is not weak. Its heavily implied that its the Ring and the Nazgu wound that progressively weakens him through out the story. And Sam's character is there to balance Frodo's weakened state. Personally I like Jackson's version better, because I think many of the brave fight scenes involving Frodo in the book made him look like a generic action character who doesn't fear anything and can deal with any kind of situation meaning you don't need to worry about him that much. Jackson's Frodo being afraid and fragile made me constantly fear for his safety and cheer whenever something good happened in his way. I think Jackson's Frodo compliments the story better than the original.

@jachyra9 15 күн бұрын

Movie Frodo is the epitome of a weak character. What you like or don't like doesn't change that.

@vikkran401 4 күн бұрын

Jacksson's Frodo made me wonder why tf was ever allowed to be a ring berarer to begin with and it makes characters like Gandalf or Elrond seem totally iresponsbile by not sending him straight back to the shire after he was healed up

@jachyra9 18 күн бұрын

Peter Jackson all-caps RUINED every character in The Lord of the Rings to one degree or another. Except for Bill the Pony. He turned out okay. Jackson's adaptation is a giant can of worms, but where the egregiousness starts is with the inexplicable changes to virtually every characterization, where the screenwriters apparently felt compelled to completely eviscerate the characters of their inherent heroism, nobility and agency, turning all of them into teenagers in need of mothering. Frodo Baggins is not a coward who falls down every five minutes and relies on other people to save him. Aragorn is not a sissy who whines that he doesn't want to inherit his birthright. Gandalf is not an indecisive bully. Merry and Pippin are not naïve idiots. Gimli is not the obnoxious offspring of Italian and Scottish football hooligans. Legolas is not Gwyneth Paltrow on Xanax who can't speak to the spirit of facing overwhelming odds without first falling into despair in The Two Towers( honestly I thought Leggy was having a panic attack ). And Éowyn is not a confused latter-day feminist, pining after Aragorn one minute and wailing like a vegan locked in an abattoir over the state of her life the next. These aren't Tolkien's characters. And this isn't Tolkien's story. The concept of faithfulness in regards to the adaptation of literature into film goes beyond the superficial, or at least it should. Jackson apparently doesn't agree.

@codypendency9482 18 күн бұрын

Aragorn is never a sissy in the movies lol, you need to think a bit more positively they are two separate stories, Good in their own ways

@101Waylander 18 күн бұрын

Much butt hurt indeed, lmao

@jachyra9 18 күн бұрын

@@codypendency9482 - If you think that what you just posted was a cogent argument, think again. Your reading comprehension, not to mention your grammar, needs a serious overhaul.

@jachyra9 18 күн бұрын

@@101Waylander - Whatever you say.

@factorfantasyweekly 18 күн бұрын

Bill the pony is the GOAT 🐐🐴

@jimknowles9634 18 күн бұрын

Peter Jackson RUINED the whole Lord of the Rings story! 😡

@lylemoore3827 17 күн бұрын

It's a movie there will be some changes and those made were reasonable in the lord if the rings (the hobbit not so much). The lord of the rings movies are easily the best trilogy of movies ever made imo

@jachyra9 17 күн бұрын

@@lylemoore3827 - No.

@jenniedarling3710 13 күн бұрын

@@jachyra9yes

@vikkran401 4 күн бұрын

@@lylemoore3827 No they are by far the worse, on or if not a tier lower then the Star Wars prequels / sequels