Fatal Cessna T310R Crash That Never Should Have Happened N5251C

  Рет қаралды 17,724

MaXtanic Films Aviation

MaXtanic Films Aviation

7 ай бұрын

Episode 3 of our 3-part series on VMC/VMCA. In this last episode we discuss human factors. Why did this experienced pilot with multiple type ratings in complex aircraft die. On a clear day with flat ground and in a turbo charged T310R this pilot had an engine failure right after takeoff. What would you do??? If you want to be safe heed this content, it may just save your life or someone you know. Fear in an emergency can't be denied. How will you handle it?
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Пікірлер: 77
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
I would not blame anyone for feeling that way about me. I never want folks to believe I am something I'm not. I would not post if I felt I had nothing to offer. This was a good guy right here. It's a shame. My aviation background -Grew up on a private airstrip (Parents still live on an airport, S36) -Started flying the 6 pack at about 5 yrs old in our 1955 C310. Couldn't see out the window so no choice 😅😅 -Learned how to fly left seat, T.O. and land at 12yrs old in our Gruman AA-1. Had that bird for 20 years. All my left seat time was in that airplane. Really fun to fly! A poor mans RV 😂. -550 logged hrs as a SIC/AP/Student Pilot or whatever someone wants to call it with my Dad. He logged those hours, flight time only not passenger time. My Mom also flew SIC, she took leasons in the early 70's. She never soloed but learned to takeoff & land. She flew SIC when I wasn't there. Once I was around 12 she became the back seater. She was scared of flying so once I was up there full time it made her more at ease. That always made me feel good. -Never got my pilots license & never soloed -Flew W my Dad for over 40yrs in 5 different airplanes, 35yrs in piston twins. We had two Cessna 310's and a B55 Baron. 10 yrs in the Baron and 25 in the 310's. Then we had an F35 Bonanza for about 6 years. -Have flown all over the country including to OSH 9 times in 3 different airplanes. CRM was a best practice for us. It was fun and rewarding. The twins keep you busy so if you can run as a crew it really helps with workload. Especially in IMC or when we had to deviate for weather. Had an ENG failure at 900ft AGL W my Dad in our F35 Bonanza right after T.O. over the town of Goodland KS. We were able to perform a gear up landing in a field and walk away. Video on our channel about it. -2 year degree in Air Traffic Control Passed the FAA exam and was accepted to go to OKC for training Did not pursue (Long story) So there it is for what it's worth if anything. Aviation is a passion for me and if I can help one person not die it's worth getting dumped on. Appreciate the comments.
@stevenc8140
@stevenc8140 6 ай бұрын
My cousin out of Mesa Az had a single engine failure off a dual engine Beechcraft plane. He went straight and landed on a road with no incident. He received a FAA Award for his airmanship!
@privateer0561
@privateer0561 7 ай бұрын
Saw the procedure for single-engine failure on takeoff of a twin on Dan Gryder's Channel a few days ago. Man, you have to absolutely be prepared for that to happen on every flight. He actually did it in real life and filmed the whole thing. From what I remember, your actions needed to be Call Engine failure, identify the failed engine, Gear Up, Blue Line, and then fly straight until you gain enough altitude of at least 1,000 ft. You can then start thinking options.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Yeah he does a great job and I have seen that video. You are 100% correct. Look at how focused you have to be just to fly straight ahead! Trying to turn is insane. One thing I should have said in this video is that red line increases based on turn, density altitude, if the prop is feathered etc. That increase is impossible to know in a split second. On the 310 it's about 84mph (IN A STRAIGHT LINE, DEAD ENG SUCURED/FEATHERED AND WITH 3 TO 5 DEGREE BANK INTO THE GOOD ENGINE). Turning back to airport like this increased that speed dramatically. Here is another example of how lethal this is. These folks survived, hard to believe when you watch this. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hrx2hKhm29Tad2Q.html Thanks for watching!
@linanicolia1363
@linanicolia1363 7 ай бұрын
Exactly !
@GeeBee909
@GeeBee909 7 ай бұрын
It just MIGHT be a good idea to have in your mind that you EXPECT the engine to fail every time during takeoff, that way you are always ready for it. If it doesn't happen, fine, just carry on with the flight
@cjswa6473
@cjswa6473 7 ай бұрын
I have had many emergencies..what I learned is that ,,with good training..all major emergencies,,after the fact..all seemed to be in slow motion. Fly the airplane, find a Field, trouble shoot.. know this in an emergency
@MajorCaliber
@MajorCaliber 3 ай бұрын
Yep, if you don't "vapor lock", and keep your brain thinking and your limbs moving, you'll probably be alright... and if your plane gives its life to save yours, that's alright too! (That's why you have Insurance!)
@Coops777
@Coops777 7 ай бұрын
Great video thankyou. I watched Juan Browne and Scott Perdue comment on this one and you have highlighted something they only brushed on, which is human factors. Thankyou for covering this. More recently, Juan Browne really pulled apart VMC theory after a recent stall spin fatality in a light twin. Juan's well detailed explanation was absolutely fascinating. I have no doubt the pilot of N5251C knew all this and more, but you could hear the fear in his voice after the engine failed and I can't help but agree with you that his extensive knowledge and experience was a long way from being put into practice. Clear security camera footage showed the aircraft flying past in clean configuration (inc left prop feathered), right engine at high power, but the 310 was slowly sinking, not climbing. Still, this very experienced pilot kept trying to press on hoping to gain altitude, despite VMCA fast approaching. (In a simulator, he would have, at this point accepted the aircraft wasn't going to climb (despite being a turbo), cut the good engine, substantially decreasing vmca and flown slow with wings level into whatever he had in front of him.) Relentlessly flying on, he kept sinking and finally pulled up to avoid a power line just short of the crash site dropping airspeed below VMCA and his fate was sealed. I must support Dan Gryder in his quest to have pilots regularly train for abnormal scenarios such as these so, as you say, it becomes instinctive.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Thank you for that. Those guys are great and I watch them as well. AQP can really help & I support it 100%. Dan is tough but people need to hear it. When pilots die in such an avoidable way consistantly it's tragic. Lives can be saved with that program!
@ValerieGriner
@ValerieGriner 4 ай бұрын
I'm a Dan Gryder fan, too. He has a funny, quirky personality, but he's very serious about AQP!@@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 4 ай бұрын
@@ValerieGriner For sure, interesting guy and really does care. Missunderstood by many folks unfortunately.
@bigdaddydaddy3203
@bigdaddydaddy3203 7 ай бұрын
Love your from the heart advice instantly subscribed well done brother ✌🏼
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
I really appreciate that, thank you!
@DrivetoSleep-yo1mk
@DrivetoSleep-yo1mk 7 ай бұрын
I guess there really is no way to know until.....😮. Makes ya think, tnx!
@thesunexpress
@thesunexpress 6 ай бұрын
"Fuck the runway, farmer won't mind we cut down some of his crop. Case of beer in return is standard to make amends." --After 4 hours in a glider & deciding we ran out of thermals to make it back to our home strip. That part of eastern Germany is full of lovely flat terrain -- precisely what you should look for in an emergency. No, it is not embarrassing, the only concern anyone will have is if there are any injuries.
@jamesg4534
@jamesg4534 7 ай бұрын
Density altitude exceeded the airplanes performance. A cooler day at a lower airport elevation and he would still be with us. You cant fool density altitude.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
The thing is here the airplane is turbocharged and has a service ceiling above 17k. If he would have flown straight ahead he could hv easily climbed. Very unfortunate because the T310R is very capable in this situation. Our non turbo 310P on the other hand would have required us to make a forced landing straight ahead. Appreciate the comments and thanks for watching 😎
@linanicolia1363
@linanicolia1363 7 ай бұрын
Losing an engine should not have much to do with density altitude. It is affecting both engines. You know you are going to need a longer runway. That's all. So, one engine quits and the other is not functioning to the max ? and you have a glider on your hands. It goes up and you put it down. Straight ahead.......Attitude and airspeed....landing on somebody's roof ? Bummer.........
@jamesg4534
@jamesg4534 7 ай бұрын
Didn’t realize it was a turbo charged aircraft. You’re right, he should’ve been able to deal with the density altitude with that airplane If all systems were operating as they should’ve been.
@roberthevern6169
@roberthevern6169 7 ай бұрын
My two cents worth. I went to college with a guy who, had he not tried 'the impossible turn', would be alive and well. After college, he worked for a small startup, and after some time, he became president of this by now very successful multinational manufacturer. His pay was commensurate with his position, allowing him to acquire numerous aircraft. He was quite a confident guy. And his confidence got him killed. Because he failed to 'aviate, navigate, communicate'. I have less confidence in myself, but somehow managed to react sensibly in TWO very critical situations that could have ended my life. My dad was a crop duster pilot who 'augered in' in 1957 when I was 2 yrs old . My brother flew T38s in the Air Force. I preferred a different form of flying, where you never leave the ground...if you get my drift. Being tested in an emergency is clearly a scenario that I had no training for, but somehow I pulled through. 'Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get'!
@chuckhoward3626
@chuckhoward3626 7 ай бұрын
The runway behind you, the sky above you and the fuel back at the pump does you no good when you are taking off when a engine quits. You are no longer flying - you are landing; make the best of it straight ahead.
@BillSmith-rx9rm
@BillSmith-rx9rm 7 ай бұрын
You are no longer flying if you are in a single engine aircraft. A twin engine, one engine fails, you are still flying on one engine. I assume this pilot's fault is that he entered into a classic left-turn stall spin into terrain. Correct, he should have kept flying straight ahead, but he could have gained altitude as well as airspeed on his one working engine. He lost that ability when he did his left hand turn.
@Indefensible
@Indefensible 7 ай бұрын
Great video. You should look at the crash of C310R N87297. Truly the single most videoed crash available.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Hi Thomas, We did a video on this accident kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hrx2hKhm29Tad2Q.html For sure a scary deal and such dramatic footage. Their so fortunate to have survived. A classis case of what we are talking about. Thanks for watching!
@MajorCaliber
@MajorCaliber 3 ай бұрын
It's hard to think of a Cessna Twin that's worth a damn in the engine-out portion of the "envelope". As seen here, the various 310 iterations--even with turbocharging and Vortex Gens--are marginal, same with the 401/401A... not sure about the later 4xx models. I don't blame the Cessna engineers, as they are pressured to achieve _everyday_ low Total Operating Costs, and so the _rare_ occurrence of a complete engine failure is less than top priority. Every twin pilot would do well to hit the realistic simulator twice a year... cuz that "engine-out checklist" has to be burned into your muscle memory--zero time to grab the printed version!
@oriorda9470
@oriorda9470 7 ай бұрын
Being prepared for the unexpected is why you train for AQP as explained by Dan Gryder’s KZfaq channel Probable Cause
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
So very true! That is a great program and Dan says what needs to said. People dog on him but some pilots need tough love. Thanks for watching!
@RustyClam
@RustyClam 7 ай бұрын
@@maxtanicfilms I also watched Dan Grider’s video and it was very good. I think maybe some ATC folks should watch this as well.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
​​@@RustyClamHi Rusty, yeah that's a great vid. Look how busy you are just flying straight ahead. Who is so good they can swing that bird around unstabilized, crazy. ATC for sure, i'm right with ya
@mikemorgan5015
@mikemorgan5015 7 ай бұрын
A belly landing is NOT a belly UP landing unless you flip the aircraft. Haha! I'm sure that was just mis-spoken.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Yeah for sure LOL. I hv always called it that, ingrained in my brain that way 😎
@lembriggs1075
@lembriggs1075 7 ай бұрын
It’s called “wheels up landing”
@224valk4
@224valk4 6 ай бұрын
I always read every accident report i could get my hands on. I wanted to know what caused others to end their PIC time!
@teijaflink2226
@teijaflink2226 7 ай бұрын
If I understood it right this guy froze from fear. Unfortunately this is a very normal reaction that can be extremely difficult to stop and usually you don't know how you will react before you have been in a life threatening or scary situation. Others become more systematic and are capable of things they could never have imagined. This is the reason too why some people don't do anything when they are in a life threatening situation which can be very confusing to people. I don't know I you can really prepare and find out how you will react until something happens. Perhaps being avare and to imagine different situations and really imagine how to react and to not freeze. But it's possible this guy had imagined something like this happening too he was just not able to react and follow the plan.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Absolutely agree. I know for myself I thought I was ready for an emergency but when it happened the fear was horrfic. We acted correctly on instinct. I would just say EXPECT THE FEAR. That's how I looked at it after. It made flying feel safer to me at that point. We had been tested. Appreciate the comments and thanks for watching.
@stephenburnage7687
@stephenburnage7687 7 ай бұрын
In a similar vein, I managed a large group of expats in Rio, where there was quite a high risk of muggings (knife or gun). We gave them all the appropriate instructions on how to respond (ie hand over your wallet calmly, descalate etc). Like you said, however, you simply cannot tell how someone might respond at that given moment. Some were confused (couldn't recognize the situation they were in); some froze; some act defiant etc (even my daughter counter attacked an attempted knife mugging by hitting over the head). Not one, so far as I can recall, actually followed what was very simple guidance. I am sure the same thing must happen in aircraft cockpits.
@scotto7924
@scotto7924 7 ай бұрын
On a lesser note I had the throttle stick open on an off-road motorbike and it is all consuming. Your mind goes blank in fear. I would handle it much better now.
@mikah4051
@mikah4051 7 ай бұрын
Yep, I’ve experienced something similar. I’ve heard it called “helmet fire”. Your senses are overwhelmed.
@scotto7924
@scotto7924 7 ай бұрын
@@mikah4051 Many years later I was driving 10 ton truck and the accelerator pedal stuck down. I depressed the clutch, braked and steered round the corner. Turned out the engine had a limiter so it didn't blow up.
@wallywally8282
@wallywally8282 7 ай бұрын
Experience means fuck all! This guy proved it!
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Agree, he knew better but froze, overwhelmed by fear.
@linanicolia1363
@linanicolia1363 7 ай бұрын
Well, experience gets your foot in the door ; after that, you may rely on common sense and many other qualities, some people do not seem to have. I expect many GA pilots are not properly trained on how to respond to emergencies. They may have done it once , in a long ago past....It's not enough ! Flying is not driving a car with wings....I see they have these now......This is going to be interesting.....letting these people fly their very expensive machines......The FAA is going to need another branch to handle that.
@Hawker900XP
@Hawker900XP 7 ай бұрын
VMC roll. The turbocharged engine could actually be a contributing factor.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Certainly and it's why you MUST stay above red line. When you turn it increases red line. That speed in this case due to density altitude sealed his fate as it was greatly increased. The factor of increase gets into test pilot relm. He gave himself no chance. The 310 has a big tail and if he had just flew straight he could have easily put it into a flat area. IMO it would have flown fine and climbed if he just flew straight. In our non turbo 310 in this situation you know #1 go straight, #2 we are going to make a forced landing straight ahead. Going straight eliminates so many negative factors. He shouldn't have died. Appreciate the comments 😎
@donc9751
@donc9751 7 ай бұрын
This is something I've heard alot about on Dan Gryders channel as well. I'm not a pilot just long time aviation fan. But it seems like waaay too many people are dying in small 1 and 2 engine GA aircraft! Really a mystery when such an experienced pilot as this man apparently was. Interesting in that it seems like the 1st thing he did was contact ATC, and their response was to clear him to land on any runway which meant a big turn around right after taking off, almost like the pilot complied with the return to the field right away but what di I know. I just hate seeing people die doing what they loved to do.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
@@donc9751 You are spot on, the fear overpowers some pilots. ATC can be a false sense of security along with that other runway so close. It's a mirage that pilots MUST avoid. Unfortunately, it never seems to end. The scary thing is you just don't know how you will respond until it happens. Look at this famous accident as another example. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hrx2hKhm29Tad2Q.html Thanks for watching Don :)
@donc9751
@donc9751 7 ай бұрын
@@maxtanicfilms Thank you for your reply and for the link!! I'm checking it out now! Thanks!
@StansWorld
@StansWorld 7 ай бұрын
I made a successful 180 and another 90 and landed safely on a engine out BUT I was in a challenger Ultra lite
@linanicolia1363
@linanicolia1363 7 ай бұрын
like flying a glider.......If you keep in mind the aerodynamic laws that allow you to fly, you can do it. Planes can glide..well, most of them, for a while ....maybe , not these Antonov 225. I am not seeing these huge monsters trying to glide.......
@igclapp
@igclapp 7 ай бұрын
​@@linanicolia1363The Antonov 225 probably doesn't have a terrible glide ratio.
@jingle1161
@jingle1161 7 ай бұрын
Nr of hours in a logbook doesn't guarantee anything. It's more the mental game of making annoying safe choices (fast) vs. tempting bad ones and it's so difficult. In a way it has nothing to do with flying but more with the gene pool. A rookie pilot may already be a better pilot than a 10000 hour pilot will ever be.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
It's true, you're spot on. The USAF did a study about this. My Dad read it years ago. We looked for it but couldn't find it. It says a percentage of pilots in testing washed out due to slow reaction times in emergency testing. They had a way to test where the student was totally unaware of what was coming. In the video prior to this my Dad talks about it. Very interesting! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/mLFjZtN4ndm9mKc.html
@jingle1161
@jingle1161 7 ай бұрын
@@maxtanicfilms that was an interesting watch. My gut feeling is that some GA pilots will freeze if an emergency occurs. I remenber my CFI pulling the throttle the first time. I thought I well prepared for all emergency steps, but I felt the panic punch in the stomach and mixed stuff up. These moments, you should be in drill mode. Training can help a lot, but you never know for sure until something happens for real. CFI's should at least throw 1 curveball per lesson 🙃
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
@@jingle1161 Yeah I agree. It is a tough one and a scary thought to think you have to wait for it to happen in order to see how a pilot reacts.
@linanicolia1363
@linanicolia1363 7 ай бұрын
well, when you get a multi engine rating, you learn how to fly with one engine . Lose one engine on take off.?...Do not turn in the direction of the failed engine, and you do not make a tight turn; or you will stall and hit the ground. I knew an ortho surgeon who had a twin. He took off fromt the Sugarland airport and lost both engines , right off the bat.... stayed straight over the runway and beyond, ending up by the front door of some woman......The plane was a total loss but he did not have a scratch ! Reason for the engines to quit ? the mechanic had used detergent oil....I remember that one, about 35 years ago. These guys need to stop communicating with ATC. They need to fly their planes and stop the ATC/ BS. Just state an emergency and focus on landing that baby, straight ahead.......no damn turns, going back to the airport.....Shish unless you know, for a fact, you will be able to do it ; usually they dive into the ground. Wrong attitude and not enough altitude to recover that stall....and spin. Over and it is so avoidable......
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Well said
@GeeBee909
@GeeBee909 7 ай бұрын
Also, the ATC clearly DOESN'T help matters in this case BECAUSE in trying to help you HE tells you to do something that you SHOULD NOT DO (turn the plane) and to help convince you to do so gives you the number of the runway you should land on (this is why no ATC contact). The pilot is already in panic mode, and chances are if he hears someone telling him to do something, he will do it
@jhaedtler
@jhaedtler 7 ай бұрын
The main problem was the tower should have never told the pilot to turn into the dead engine. Also the pilot should have refused the direction! Sad either way!
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Agree 100%, one real issue with ATC is their lack of awareness. Most aren't pilots and thus can't put themselves in the cockpit, in the pilots shoes so to speak. When I was in school for ATC they always told us. If a pilot has an emergency DO NOT OFFER ADVICE. Simply say to the pilot "what are your intentions" this hopefully removes the issue we have here. ATC blew it in this crash. I appreciate your comments thanks for watching 😎
@petediaz9310
@petediaz9310 7 ай бұрын
You can turn in either direction, if you can't you better get in a sim & get some training
@linanicolia1363
@linanicolia1363 7 ай бұрын
STOP talking to ATC after you mention what your problem is. Just notify them of what you plan to do. You fly and they handle the traffic.
@dermick
@dermick 7 ай бұрын
@@maxtanicfilms If I could get every ATC to say just one thing when someone declares an emergency it should be "focus on flying the aircraft, keep the wings level, don't stall."
@eojabac7123
@eojabac7123 6 ай бұрын
Wonder if this plane was equipped with Vortex Generators (lower Vmc), from ~80kn to 71 kn .... more controllability in engine out operations. Also, which engine failed? Left Engine is critical engine.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 6 ай бұрын
It did have VG's. You are correct, sad deal. We had them on our Baron and 310P. Amazing the difference they make.
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 6 ай бұрын
Left is the critical engine.
@eojabac7123
@eojabac7123 6 ай бұрын
@@maxtanicfilms Did the left engine fail?
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 6 ай бұрын
@@eojabac7123 Not sure as there has been no official report by the NTSB. In the preliminary rpt from the NTSB it says. Witnesses hv said it hit the house but no other details reported. It will be interesting to see if either prop was feathered. That will tell us a lot.
@jefferyyounce5372
@jefferyyounce5372 7 ай бұрын
We don't like folks who present such better videos than folks who have a gazillion hours from spaceships to paragliders.... i.e blancolirio,..etc. I'm going to hold my nose and watch your videos instead..LOL :)
@mts982
@mts982 7 ай бұрын
but isnt the airport you just took off from the closest airport?
@rmgf1005
@rmgf1005 7 ай бұрын
AQP
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 7 ай бұрын
Absolutely 😎👍
@igclapp
@igclapp 5 ай бұрын
Kind of curious...what does AQP say to do in this situation that is different than normal engine-out procedures?
@maxtanicfilms
@maxtanicfilms 5 ай бұрын
It's the mental side of training as it relates to that particular pilot. AQP is a way to focus that training so a pilot will react properly and perform the engine out procedures correctly. It is no guarantee of course. You just don't know until it happens, the ultimate test. @@igclapp
@carloscarrillo6595
@carloscarrillo6595 7 ай бұрын
When turning, he stalled the ruder going into an unrecoverable spin.
@nathanrunkle2128
@nathanrunkle2128 7 ай бұрын
Non-pilot,retired,problem- solver,machine designer,……how about,a Fed.mandated ,small plane mounted parachute sys.,auto- deployed,stall induced system?! ( ya, aviation-world,this shocked me too !? Gods help F/ his ‘family’!
@MajorCaliber
@MajorCaliber 3 ай бұрын
EVERY Cirrus aircraft (incl. their jet) is so equipped and it is NOT a panacea, esp. at LOW altitude like this incident. Check the stats... you'll find for instance that the NON-parachute-equipped Diamond DA-40 has a better safety record than the Cirrus SR-2x family, because the former has A) super-low STALL SPEED, and B) a fuselage/passenger-compartment that is *designed for crash-survival* ... in the proverbial Final Analysis, there IS no substitute for... GOOD AIRMANSHIP!
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Рет қаралды 2,2 МЛН