It's easy to not understand how good you are when top players always tell others that, if you're not at the 99.9th percentile, you're trash and have no clue what you're doing or what you're talking about

The thing is that the content for people who don't care about their performance (dungeons, trials, raids) is already clearable while doing the bare minimum You can have everyone completely ignore positionals and break combos all day, drift all cooldowns and still kill in a timely manner This is not the time when missing positionals would break combo. The change to make melees approachable already happened years and years ago. Anything further now exists solely to remove complexity from those that appreciate it.

@@Orphan_of_Kos_or_some_say_Kosm You can see this when any discussion of parses online is always expecting to be 80% percentile or better to just be considered "good enough". Which is absolutely insane because all of those parses, wether they were a 1 to a 99, resulted in a clear.

Watching 10 people get blasted by the telegraphed witness beam was certainly an eye opening experience

@@vaan_ complexity kills MMO's. every MMO that has advertised itself as being hardcore or having complexity etc has died or had to radically "casualise" and make changes to stay relevant. The sad truth is that if you want complexity in a video game, don't play MMO's. Both FF14 and WoW has had to remove complexity over the years to keep itself relevant because unfortunately hardcore/ midcore players cannot keep MMO's running. MMO's require the casual players in order to exist so they are designed for them.

Also does not help that they often do not adjust to how you are positioned. Had Alisaie drop her marker aoe on me in the second boss of the 93 dungeon... 3 times I think cause I was trying to dodge the mechanic and still stay in Melee Range. Alisaie you're a caster I'm a viper. Get the heck out of my spot >:c

@@zman1347 isn't she rdm? maybe she was doin melee combo

I strongly disagree. With Trusts, the only limiting factor is your own play. If I'm in a party, I have to babysit everyone else to make sure they don't eat shit. I have zero control over the play of others, so if the tank is garbage, then I'm not clearing the dungeon. If the DPS is garbage, I'm not clearing the dungeon. If the healer is garbage, I'm not clearing the dungeon. With Trusts, if I'm garbage, then I don't deserve to clear the dungeon.

@@moogleboy absolutely spot on, and that needs to be heavily expressed to people.

Trusts are easy. They are slow but just follow the npcs. It took us 30 min to beat the first trial with duty finder. With trusts i only wiped once.

Always cracks me up when people say we have a good connection to the devs xD Like, we are sitting behind 5 walls of filter from the devs. Yoshi might as well be speaking in riddles for the western audience.

As far as I'm aware, the JP players think "the Devs only listen to EN players!". The grass is greener at the neighbour's house, to borrow their version of the idiom.

well said

I feel like positionals only work on jobs that can flex them so they don't have to spend True north every time a mechanic slightly inconveniences them. Samurai is the poster child of doing positionals right, if you're going to do them, you need the option to say "Okay the boss is about to do an attack that will make the rear unaccessible, but the flank is fine, let me do my flank combo and grab that sen, oh no a circle dropped and I still can't get to the back yet, no worries, use my filler sen for the moment and then make my way to the rear." If it persists after that, then use true north. So then what to you do on a class like Viper when you need to double weave, but then also need to hit a positional. I just don't get why EVERY SINGLE MELEE needs positionals, why can't that be a job specific thing?

amen

But what if you enjoy complex jobs? What if the playstyle that you find satisfying is managing many different skills and resources? Personally I don't see why complexity has to be purged across the board. There are 20 different jobs in the game, so why can't we have a few complex ones?

That comment wasn't a personal attack against you or your comment to be clear, just trying to voice an opposing perspective

@@talancorwell what do you think would make a job "complex" in the first place? because every time i see someone saying that, they propose things that aren't complex in the least (like button bloat) at the end of the day, your rotation will simply come down to math - and people will copy that math from the giganerds that are spreadsheeting rotations on discord all that

@@talancorwell Then I hope there's a job with the complexity (and the *type* of complexity) you like. Not everything has to appeal to everyone, but SE does have the challenge of making sure each job is appealing to *enough* people.

Both are fun imo.

I love Picto because it offers a palette (lol) of different types of abilities. I've got my standard combo of casts for most situations, I've got my canvases for big damage and AoE, and I've got my paint abilities for instant casts while on the move or during mechanics. And the fact that each of those different sets plays in a different way is very fun and engaging to me. But I can see why it wouldn't jive with everyone.

​@@Maria_Erias I'm already negatively predisposed towards casters, so my judgement doesn't mean much in that regard. Aesthetically (lol) I think it's great, especially the water spell, makes me wish there was a water type caster, that I'd play.

I feel like viper is made for dumb people, it's so boring to play, everything is done for you. Only thing I like is that it looks cool

As someone who plays all classes, all longcasts feel horrible at first but as you get used to them it's fine, the only thing you really need to understand on picto is when exactly to paint vs when to damage, also I tried to incorporate swift to try and get an instant canvas, simple answer, No.

RIGHT? tsubame being tied to meiko is so fucking dumb... "DERRR WELL I GUESS NOONSE USES THE GIANT POTENCY BUFF ON AOES SO MIGHT AS WELL MAKE THAT MMORE OF A PAIN AND HARDER TO DO!" when 90% of the fucking fights ARE AOE EXCLUSIVELY OUTSIDE OF RAIDS/TRIALS

This! That's the big frustration that a lot are over looking. The game already has easy jobs, most have been vastly "streamlined" for the purpose of making them accessible to casuals. But the players on the other end should be allowed to have jobs that cater to them too. New players can't even play Viper, no one was maining Viper already, there are over 20 jobs and most of them are already extremely simplistic. What is the point of being able to change jobs if they all need to be made to do the same things and cater to the lowest end players? Some of us want job options that actually have us doing stuff and find that fun.

Because people **want** to be X instead of Y. It's really not that hard to understand when you remember that not everyone plays video games because they want to be challenged. People play video games because they're **fun**. And fun isn't tied to difficulty unless a player *wants* to be challenged. If you just want to do "cool ninja shit," you're not going to be happy when people tell you to just put on summoner robes instead. They don't want difficulty, they want to enjoy the fantasy that they have constructed for their character. Also, people are really taking the Viper changes to an extreme that is wholly overbearing. The only things that are for sure is that some ranges are being adjusted (big whoop, that's quality of life), and positional requirements are being eased somewhat (which is probably the B2B positional in the Dreadwinder combo getting adjusted so the second attack is positional-free). The complaints of "busyness" is such a nebulous, indistinct, non-specific thing that you can't really say what it is. But if all that led to is a positional adjustment and some range changes, it's probably not as big of a change as people are dooming over.

@@electronsympathy But that argument is also true the opposite direction. A huge chunk of the player base is frustrated because almost every job already caters to the people that just want to play everything with no effort. That's why they keep getting backlash, we on the other end, do not find it fun to play 21 flavors of oversimplified. There should be jobs that offer different ranges of engagement. If you only care about the aesthetics then play Viper in PVE where no one cares, even in normal mode content, no one cares if you don't do your rotation properly. By this logic, Savage content should all be changed to be as easy as normal modes because casuals want all the raid mounts. Casual players should not be entitled to just have everything catered to them. They may find simplicity fun but just as many players find a job that is actually engaging to be what makes it fun. They're not over reacting because a precedent has been set already with so many jobs being overly simplified or having complexity removed while there haven't been any that have gone the other way and gained more complexity. People are worried because they already changed so many jobs to cater to casuals and it kills any gun for those of us that actually want to use our brains. Viper is already not considered difficult by most players because without positionals, having more range, etc, it's already heavily going down the path of becoming "follow the light up buttons" the job and that is frustrating to players that like it with positionals and enjoy it specifically because it is busy. Again, sorry if a casual likes 2 swords aesthetically but you shouldn't just get to have everything because you decide not putting any effort in is fun. Some of us actually want to play the game and be engaged.

@@mismismism What? Are the mechanics of fights not engaging enough for you? Real talk, buddy... If you're so "good" at the game that the only thing that keeps the game from being braindead is a back to back positional requirement... Maybe you're actually missing some shit. I guarantee you, once you step out of your reddit/youtube echo chamber and look at the broader picture, you'll see that this "huge chunk" of the playerbase is actually much, much smaller. The simplest Viper or Summoner gameplay is still miles ahead of most MMO classes in terms of complexity. And there's nothing wrong with them being easy to play. We live in an age where any MMO class is going to be **solved** by some guy with a spreadsheet within hours of release. We have people who are *manually deactivating* pictomancer buffs for a tiny increase in DPS in the first week. MMO classes will never be meaningfully difficult. You're not arguing for difficulty. You're arguing for a class to be harder to *control*, harder to do the correct *inputs*. It's a discussion that's been done to death in the FGC, and the honest truth is that you don't need anything to be difficult to control. Classes being difficult or easy to play isn't the real issue, it's whether or not there's enough space in the gameplay to express yourself as a player. FFXIV, with its rigid, dance-like, scripted fights, and uncompromising, bespoke attack rotations is lacking in that regard.

@@electronsympathy No, they're not, because some of us want variety. No one is being elitist by saying there should be some jobs that are easy and some that actually require some effort. Not to mention it literally does not have an effect on casuals because normal content doesn't have enrage. If a casual just wants to have 2 swords and they can't weave properly, they don't need to. They can literally just do the 2 button combos the whole time, focus on mechanics and clear. All these changes do is make players that actually want to be engaged by their job, find that fun and became fans of the game because of jobs that used to offer that, feel alienated and bored. It's not actually a small portion at all, that's why the backlash has been so intense for the constant simplification of jobs and homogenization that they keep coming out and addressing it. Which is another reason people are mad, because Yoshida came out and said they weren't gonna keep doing this and talking about how they went too far and players need some stress to feel satisfied but then they're talking about a new job being too hard a week after it released when most players, especially the casual ones, don't even have it levelled yet, let alone have muscle memory to even be complaining in the first place, it just dropped, of course people will need to take time to learn how to play a job that barely came out. This whole thing is stupid, there are 21 jobs, if VPR is not for you, that doesn't mean there is something wrong with VPR, you do not build a game with every option catering to the lowest investment players. There are already a whole bunch of jobs made to be casual and simple to play effectively, there are only a few left for the rest of us currently. This is also why stuff like the healer strike happened and BLM players getting pissed and the job has badly fallen off in high end content in favor of PCT because a lot of us actually want a job that feels complex and there is nothing wrong with us voicing that.

Yeah but with Viper you really only have two positionals that truly matter, the Dreadwinder combo - and that you just True North, same as with Reaper's big damage combo. The only time you really use the basic combos is when you are on downtime of the main burst, and mostly just to keep the debuff up

They hated him for he told the truth... I was rusty doing the post endwalker trials after 2 years of not playing... I had 8 fucking vulnerability stacks as the main tank by the time we killed the last trial of that questline... game the casuals play is not hard in the slightest...

Anything is hard when you don't have the knowledge, either to playing your character, correct gear, spec, boss fight strats and doing it all at once without distraction.

This! Thank you! 👏👍

The normals being clearable by everyone isn't the problem, the problem is when people demand the same results on every class and every skill level. And then what's the point? Especially when people throw riots over certain loot being locked behind ex/savage/ect. There's gotta be a line.

Also, why is the job that starts at level 80/90 the easy job??

@@SolFlaira Because most other jobs suffer from years of added abilities stacked up from previous expansions, that are slowly getting pruned away.

Positionals have always been a player issue. I honestly been ignoring most of them, even if it's a dps loss, with the exception of the single target charged abilities. I actually don't mind how busy Viper is. Something tells me I may actually hate the changes.

When it comes to optimization it requieres quite a bit of juggling, ideally you want to double reawaken on every even minute window, similar to RPR, difference being, RPR has only 1 debuff you need to maintain that can last for up to a minute and that can be refreshed at any time without any issues barring a minor dps loss if you overextend the debuff's duration, while VPR has 1 debuff and 2 buffs you need to upkeep and they come from 3 or 6 different actions depending on how you look at it, while its rotation doesn't allow you to apply these liberally, otherwise you run the risk of over capping important resources you then use for dealing damage or you lose a ton of damage if you have to apply them via a non optimal filler, not to mention they last for up to 40 seconds each. So yeah, easy to pick up and play to a competent level, not that easy to optimize or "parse" with.

@@ronin1361 Dreadwinder without drifting while doing mechanics is the really unfun bit.

honestly i think the problem is less that the class is hard and more that people tend to overthink it. They see 3 or 4 different buffs from different abilities in different stages of your combo flanks and rears an entire second combo with dreadwinder and start panicking wenn the reality just is hit 1-2-rear3-4 and repeat with flank instead of rear and just hit whatever button lights up The only thing that i could imagine could be annoying is the dreadwinder combo because rear and flank come immediately after another in that one.

@@sharodintv4036you have literally the entirety of the GCD to hit those 2 positional though, people make positional 3000% harder to deal with in their heads than they actually are

I'm the opposite. I hate games that cater to morons. That's how WOW has ended up with billions of oxygen thieving noobs. The "it's just a game" crowd that are content wasting other players time because they refuse to improve even SLIGHTLY. They're not team players and shouldn't be given an ounce of clemency

I agree, and this is also a big problem for me with this whole controversy. I think its totally find that not everything is made for everyone, and I don't think every class's play style should be for everyone. Like if you don't want a fast paced, busy class, then maybe viper isn't for you and that ok, there are plenty of other jobs that will cater to your play style.

If you play with base keybinds and can clear up to +20 keys then by all means, keep going.

As a tank main... i prefer running with trusts. They are more useful than the average dps player

@@varileztradragonsong4603 idk what data center you are on, but as a dps player who does tank on the side, ive seen the exact opposite. Dps players tend to be very skillful and good. Tanks tend to be moronic and brain dead. Maybe just a difference in server population?

Omg yes

Second this

this

or they ignored the entire first VPR quest where they straight up teach you how to play it

Use dreadwinder hitting the positional while doing the 2 ogcds while doing a mechanic where you have to move away from the boss

@@omensoffate i do it all the time and sometimes i don't, not a big deal enough to scream on forums about it being too difficult

@@kenjiayoma7571 Who's been saying it's too difficult? The post says it's too *busy*. It doesn't feel fun, and it doesn't feel like a skill check. It's more often than not a simple "where exactly is the boss, and where did the AoE land" check.

@@omensoffate if you have to move you use true north or take the L on the positionals, there's not a single fight in the game that's tuned so tight you need to hit 100% positionals. Weaving the ogcds while moving is insanely easy btw, that's 100% a skill issue if you struggle and there's plenty of other jobs with the same playstyle.

what does colorblindness have to do with APM?

@@rickmel09 Nothing with APM. But the hotbar icons for the different finishers are red and green. So I have seen people make comments about it being hard to remember which positional to hit because they can't see the color. Maybe I misheard because I did just have this video going in the background. But He said the majority of complaints came from Japan, both the APM and the annoyance of positionals. So that colorblind thing was just something that popped into my head.

@@mrfathed3129 the positionals being annoying (having to constantly alternate between side and back) is a contributing factor to the APM (since you have to move around the boss a lot) nothing to do with the colors, and even when the color does appear, you're already going to the at the final stage of your combo, which might not be enough time for an unaware player to move around

I doubt it's about the standard rotation positionals. Even if you where color blind, once you learn the flow, rear always follows the button 2-2 and flank always follows button 1-2, or in the instance of the vipersight gauge, left 2 leads to flank and right 2 leads to rear. It's likely the dreadwinder combo, where one is a flank, the other is a rear, you have to do them both sequentially, and theres a double weave between them and following them.

True! North! Say it slowly. Truuuuuue. Noooooorth.

Because being able to hit all your positionals is how you can express your skill on that job. By removing some of them, your way of expressing skill becomes just critting more.

@@Henji96 i think we have VASTLY different definitions of "expression" here. Positionals are binary. you either hit them or you dont. And it's rarely ever 100% in your own hands if it's even an option- whether it be through tanks moving or the boss shifting around for mechanics (trick attack, anyone?). Not to mention all of the random bosses and the majority of final bosses that are omni-positional to begin with... Frankly, I fail to see how that's "expressive" in any way. Most people I know sit at the back corner of a boss and wiggle back and forth 3 inches to the left and right and just pop true north when things get funky. Standing relatively still and pressing an oGCD button. How expressive! That being said, Viper specifically, has plenty of other ways to "express your skill" as is. We have rattling coils, when and where to use our "spare" reawakens because we're gauge positive on full uptime, we can pretty freely control how much of our debuff to have when going into the burst phase, the burst phase itself has like 3 or 4 different variations with pros and cons on a per fight basis... Heck, Viper barely has a rotation because it's just 90-100 seconds of "just don't mess up" before setting yourself up for a double reawaken in raidwide buff timers. Where I'm from, we call that "freestyle". Not that I necessarily want to see that little extra difficulty go myself. Positionals are the only thing truly differentiating melee from ranged and casters, but calling it a form expression is so very weird and out there to me. I see it more of a role identity. Tanks get aggro, healers heal, melees have positionals, casters have cast times, and ranged cry in the corner.

@@Fluff2556Ranged stand in Narnia and miss the party heals going on 3/4 of the way across the arena, correct.

@@Fluff2556 The expression is grabbing the positionals that arnt free where you arn't standing in the cornor wiggling 3 inches, when its TOP p6 and its been 2 hours in to the raid night and you miss 0 positionals on the boss that spins around and faces the tank while you run around in a circle or when its hello world and the positional is on the opposite side of your tower so the only way to get it is to run though the middle of the boss where you can run in to a healer. Encounter design effects your ability to express your skill and you need both job and encounter design to have skill expression, and while overall encounter design has been moving in a way that lets you greed less positionals and have easier uptime (and therefore be less expressive), changing it on the job design level makes it so no matter what encounter you are going to have less skill expression.

if clearing TOP without healers isn't skill expression, idk what is

exactly, that IS viper's identity with how stale/boring it feels, "PUSH BUTTONS FAST HIGH APM FAST JOB GO FAST"

Uh, Gluttony is still a thing, and they even buffed it this expansion

@@Auesis You mean Gibbet and Gallows, but those are the only positionals Reaper has, Viper has effectively 4 (6 in actuality). My point is that the job will barely change and the change they'll likely do is just rip out 2 positionals from either the twin blade mode or the basic 1-2-3.

Thats the whole enjoyable part about viper though, going in between positions. You say "back to back" but there's a whole 3GCD gap in between them, its really not that bad. You even still get the oGCD proc even if you miss the positional so I really do not see the problem here.

I'm actually a bit upset that the Dragoon Dance has been simplified from Stormblood into Shadowbringers, and now into Endwalker. Having to figure how to dance around the boss on the corners was part of what made Dragoon initially so attractive to me.

@@Auesis pretty sure everyone just uses true north before gluttony, since it has a lower cooldown

Yeah I’ve tried explaining this to people in my static about job simplification. Like for every one of you who wants a harder job, there are thousands of people who want it simpler. And 15-20 dollars a month from you does not even scratch the money they bring in.

Right, because games developed for a niche (hardcore, etc) audience don't do well right? I'm sure Elden Ring sold so well cause it catered SO well to a casual audience. Same with Baldur's Gate 3. If you design a game for everyone, you have a game for no one. FF14 combat has suffered because it has forgotten this fact.

@@Quix32 isn't Elden Ring the most simplified of all soulsborne games? Also idk why you mentioned BG3, the game is super casual and you can choose difficulty as well. They are def not niche/hardcore

@@suncommander7102 If you think ER is a game for casual players then we must have very different definitions of what a casual gamer is. Baldur's Gate is a very difficult game for those not initiated with DnD. Its a very in depth game that requires a lot of reading and planning, something I also wouldn't say is for your everyday gamer. Again, it's niche, just like ER. My point being just because a game (and by extension, game design ie ff14 jobs) is meant for specific types of players doesn't mean it can't be successful.

@@Quix32 I'm not sure how you read "don't do well" out of my comment about not AS MUCH $. It's just math. If a certain population has 100 hardcore gamers and 1,000 casual gamers, and assuming for our thought experiment every gamer buys the game they enjoy, the dev of the hardcore game will sell 100 copies and the dev of the casual game will sell 1,000 copies. Certainly Elden Ring was very popular. That doesn't mean it made as much money as Stardew Valley.

I think people are kinda missing the point here with difficulty vs business. The issue with Viper is that it's so "busy" that you really can't effectively do your rotation on certain fights. I don't personally think this really shows up until you do Everkeep EX. The proposed changes don't seem to make it easier but giving you the ability to have more time on bosses. As far as difficulty, Viper is very complex to minmax but in general much easier than picto, at least imo.

what's hard about picto? one of the lowest APM jobs as far as i'm aware, and doesn't have any timers or tricky resources to manage

absolutely loved the ..was it 30 waves? as a healer and the tank moving out of the ground healing aoe effects. my desk still has bite marks in it.

The difference is none of the casual player base will even consider ultimates, savage, or criterion content. Most won't even do extremes. So when most players only do content attached to group finder roulettes, the difficulty of each job becomes the main challenge these players will face in the game. And if you have players who think a class is cool, but it's too tough to play, they'll get upset.

@@OldManInternetI don’t get upset. I just don’t play it. I’m here to have fun an get through content at my leisure. If I spend most of my time split between deciding if I should press button 8/12 or 6/12. That’s too much when I’m already running around avoiding the kitchen sink mechanics. I’m here to just have a casual experience an if that makes me not play a class, so be it. Not many games are my speed anymore. An I’m fine with that. The ones complaining are the ones that treat the game as a job an take it serious, which is fine. But they forget we exist, which…..is funny.

It's more so MMO gamers are conditioned to view jank as difficulty, for instance Viper needs to strike the sweet spot It's a class constantly doubble weaving with high apm and positionals, as it stands anyone with any real ping is going to be forever having a unfun experience, for instance NIN (the other scouting job) just lost a positional on Trick attack the job isn't "easier" it's less obnoxious having to pop true north for Trick in certain encounters (say p11s) where the mechs and boss require you to not be at the rear.

Well have you thought of maybe that’s not what the devs are going for in the first place. Also most ppl complaining some job is too easy is not even “hardcore”. 90% those ppl you see in this comment section never set foot in savage or ultimate. They don’t know the correct opener for the job they play. They don’t know even when they doing the rotation wrong. Actually they do have really complicated jobs. Guess what. No one is playing it. And if you ask ANY players do high end content often. They will all tell you. Job is not the hard part of the game. It’s the boss. No one think wow TOP is really hard because you have to do positional. Just like preach said. The ppl complain and trying to show ego are the ppl “nearly” to be good.

@@Havok135 you are sadly the VAST minority my friend, most people take to reddit/forums/twitter/youtube/apparently channels the devs monitor, to bitch and moan incessantly that it's too hard as you can see from spending even 5 minutes scrolling here

The amount of flexibility picto has as a caster is insane, just running dungeon content with it feels so smooth, and it feels like I can decide what part of my kit I want to use whenever I want to for movement. I’m also terrible at perfectly executing a rotation and not hyper optimizing 2min burst on picto doesn’t feel TOO bad

i just wish picto had the option to consolidate the 2 combos, the 2 instants and the muses/motiffs you can't use one while the other is available anyway, just feels like the pointless button bloat of old

​@@rickmel09 the hotbar is pretty empty compared to others ( yes you blm, 3 hotbars is barely enough lmao) so it's not that bloated yet

@@Gathoderiz still doesn't make sense MCH also has very few buttons (if not fewer than picto) and their new skills got consolidated

My money is on Coils being where the change will be. Those combos are pushing the line of fun/frustrating with the massive, mandatory APM increase, which is something they've moved away from.

I just want the APM to stay high, it's the biggest draw to the class for me. I adore how it plays with different speeds and burst windows. I think Den could be mixed into the Coil's if they added some other buttons to the job. Because legit, it would drop it down to a like 12 button job for everything almost lol. But otherwise the only change I'd ask for personally is removed positionals from the Coil attacks specifically. Back to back positional swaps are never really fun and often frustrating in a game that focuses on dance style fights.

for the 123 combo, you can either tell by the color, or you just remember the next positionals because it's always rear-flank-rear-flank. For dreadwinder, it's working exactly how you wanted.

@@adrian-iw7gm As I'm playing a bit more. I did start to notice that. A green icon is for flank and a red icon is for rear. I suppose it would have been more obvious if the icon colors were a little more saturated.

You fell into the trap of not realising how much better you are then the average. Casual players aren't going to be happy with more buttons to press, there is an extremely common trope in FF14 specifically with some casual players that only press their 1-2-3 combo in all content, there are plenty more buttons then the 123 yet they still don't press them at all. More buttons and mechanics for classes isn't the answer. If it was, it would have already been implemented.

​@CJGordon987 I've gotten in arguments with people about this before because they just don't get it. While there are absolutely incredibly talented players at the high end of this game, the skill floor (and by extension the ability of the truly average player) is comically low. And this majority is also the group paying the bills, so as much as PF legends would like more room for skill expression, the vast majority of people just want the job they think looks cool easy enough to play that they can get through their normal dungeons.

​@@OldManInternet Not sure which side your argueing for, but that's pretty much what I'm talking about, and where low skill floor-high skill ceiling comes in. My argument is that it's easier to do that with jobs, something that the individual has direct control over, than with content, which is something that is mostly decided by the devs and also heavily influenced by the other people you're doing that content with in the case of group content. Think Devil May Cry (3 and beyond I guess) or Bayonetta which is probably an even better example. A person who's not good at video games can totally play those games on Easy difficulty and have fun just pressing buttons, if you happen to press them in a certain order cool shit happens, there are tons of weapons and moves to play with, you absolutely DO NOT need any of them to beat the game, but they're there if you stumble upon them and think they look cool. However, the depth is there for anyone who wants to explore it, and I'm not talking about the higher difficulties, but the options you have controlling your character; you can do some insane combos in those games if you know what you're doing, the possibilities are nearly endless, but that doesn't take away from the button mashing experience. Linking back to XIV, it already has content difficulty options (Normal, Extreme, Savage, Ultimate, etc.), you can already beat everything that is required to experience the story and everything else available in the expansion (other than higher difficulty variants) by just mashing your 1-2-3 combo. So why would adding 5 more buttons make a difference for those people who don't even care that buttons beyond 3 exist? Why not give the options (keyword options) for the people who want them? Why not raise the skill ceiling while keeping the skill floor where it is?

@@mirai3266 I personally don't mind having higher skill expression jobs/classes in games, but I'm not an average gamer. The average player is going to be annoyed when he has a certain aesthetic in a game he likes, but it's too hard to figure out so they can't do it. Someone who was a war vet and wants to play machinist because it has a gun, but ends up getting pushed into summoner because he doesn't have the reflexes for machinist will probably get annoyed. Maybe he just deals with it, or tries to get better and learn the job he thinks is cooler. But he's just as likely to quit his sub and move on because the job he can play doesn't match the job fantasy he enjoys. I actually think the answer is in making more content at varying difficulties. If the challenge comes from the content rather than the jobs themselves, then players can hop into whatever job fantasy they think is cool, and then figure our what their threshold for challenging content is. Then people can be whatever they want, and find their degree of challenge from the content. When you design some jobs that are hard and some that are easy, you're basically telling half the player base they potentially can't be the thing they think is cool. And that is a more important factor to the devs than a veteran player feeling like there isn't enough skill expression in their preferred job as they optimize their rotations for savage. Because at the end of the day, neither player is more valuable than the other, because they're both a sub. And the established player who has been savage raiding since Stormblood is less likely to cancel a sub over a lack of high end skill expression than a frustrated casual who just wants to be a guy with a gun.

@@OldManInternet So the argument then is that people will get annoyed at _more_ skill expression because they can't interact with that _extra_ skill expression due to not being good enough? That people actually do want to play their classes optimally, they just don't want to have to put in the work to do so? Because as I said, the game already allows you to experience 95% of it doing the absolute bare minimum, if you don't know how to go 1-2-3 on your keyboard you probably wouldn't even have been able to open the game in the first place. You don't need to raise the skill floor to raise the skill ceiling, you can keep that experience intact while allowing the players who want to interact more with the systems the freedom to do so, that's what I was saying with the Devil May Cry/Bayonetta example.

Why are you trying to kill so many people?!

Yeah, people are not talking about this enough. It was buttery smooth, despite the absolutely insane rush. If it is true that the game was doing better than SHB and EW then we had the same rush of players but none of the issues. Of course there's also the argument that this should be the norm and not worth mentioning. OF COURSE it was smooth. That is what we should be expecting from the provider of a product. Sadly reality has taught us otherwise and we've begun to accept the reality of it.

Play summoner, melee jobs aren't for you.

Just play un-optimally. Positionals in casual content REALLY aren't make or break.

unironically big true, i'm almost always top or #2 on damage dealt as tank, and have, on many MANY occasions beat at least 1 DPS on healer which.... should NOT be fucking happening in the current state the game is in, EVER. fking EVER.

people aren't saying it's too hard, they're saying it's too busy two very different concepts, although business can interfere with people that have physical limitations also picto is... very easy. 30 movement options, easy to bank resources, their cooldowns have multiple charges to avoid drifting, etc

@@rickmel09 It's the same thing. If you can't execute the job, play something else, not every job has to have the same tempo, again, there are 21 jobs to pick from. And like I said, if you are a casual player, and you can't keep up with positionals or weaving or whatever, then just don't, just play at the speed you can. There is no enrage in normal content, you do not have to play a perfect high end rotation, no one expects you to in normal content. They're mad that some jobs have room for skill expression for people that enjoy mastering a job that actually has mechanics. It's the same reason BLM players are pissed, they made changes that specifically killed non-standard rotations and everyone knows the reason is that little Timmy got mad he couldn't pick up BLM and do more damage than an endgame raider that finds their fun spending time practicing and mastering all the ins and outs of their job to learn a bunch of tricks they can do to get the most DPS out as possible. No one requires you to do that but yet casuals are constantly complaining. If there's a new job no one has even had enough time to master yet, that you can't play, guess what, the world doesn't revolve around you, play any of the other jobs that is less busy to you. I had to have surgery during EW and the meds I was on made it impossible for me to play harder jobs, but you know what I didn't do? Go onto the forums and complain that I couldn't play the hard jobs, therefore they need to be changed to all cater to my ability because other players exist that actually want a busier job and they should get equal priority from the dev team.

@@mismismism if you don't like the changes, play something else :)

@@rickmel09 Which is exactly what will happen and I actually want to continue playing this game. You all love to defend casuals complaining, treating us like elitists but let the rest of us voice our opinion and here you guys go doing the same things you accuse high end players of doing when this issue actually has nothing to do with casuals. Casual players are not expected to play their rotation perfectly but they keep inserting themselves into job balance.

@@mismismism bless your heart

There are two methods that make multiple options viable in WoW. First is different content/comp/circumstances etc have different "best" builds. Sometimes you want to do pure single target damage, sometimes you want more AoE, sometimes in between. Or certain utility talents you only pic for specific bosses/dungeons. Second one is you can simplify the gameplay a lot by choosing suboptimal talents, less active abilities and more passive ones etc.

the "illusion of choice" thing is quite a silly dismissal... in reality, there are a lot of different builds that can meet the bar to comfortably clear the content (if people can clear mythic with boostees, they can probably clear it with a feral druid on the roster) this idea that "you must play X because meta" is self-imposed by the community, and it mostly comes from the "worst type of players" mike was talking about (the people who think they know, but don't) i for one still remember when echo rerolled a bunch of their players into warlock for a RWF because it was theoretically meta, and then they performed worse because it turns out 10+ years of experience on a class is worth more than numbers on a simulator

The tanks clicking on a line of text that triggers a scripted event is not "a hero moment"

@ich3730 in terms of spectacle it is, no other class can do it and it's anime as hell for better or worse

major no, i'd never ever ever play the new jobs if i had to elvel from 1.... i played for 4+ yrs i have no fucking interest in going back down to lvl 1 and having 1 button again and playing 80 levels with 1/2 a kit.... just fucking NO. literally refuse to run roulettes because alliance raid is 3000% of the time a CT raid, leveling is 70% of the time some sub 60 bullshit where you lose LITERALLY 3/4 OF YOUR FKING KIT.... idk why the hack ass devs dont do level syncing like EVERY OTHER FUCKIN GAME WHERE YOU KEEP YOUR KIT.... i don't care if it makes some level 20 content easier... those people aren't gonna get my help anyways so punishing me that way is asinine. i help people unsync stuff and farm mounts constantly, i dont need to play fisher price 2 button version of my class to do so.

the fuck is an augmentation evoker lmao i haven't played since early legion, played week after vanilla launch to legion but that just sounds like an arcane mage that does enchants or transmogs lmao

also yeah back in vanilla wow especially there was absolutely nothing whatsoever beyond tooltips, that were even wrong sometimes too or abilities being awfully designed (how bout that rank 1 lacerate at like lvl 45 doing 66 damage over 30 seconds for survival hunter LOL ik weird memory for WoW stuff), people expect a truly absurd amount of hand holding in FF and babyrage endlessly online when they don't get it or get ANY frustration whatsoever

can confirm the DT dungeon bosses are leagues ahead of previous expansions

But this leads into an obvious problem: 95% of the content in the game dont have any "skill check" in how you handle the fight. Thats reserved for savage/ultimate and maybe some extremes. The classes HAVE to have some skill checks, otherwise most of the game becomes meaningless.

Hell, I play DRG with only two positionals buttons and I'm CONSTANTLY getting which one is which mixed up.

I mean it is a skill issue. The vast vast majority of people have not had Viper for even 3 days yet. Over 95% of all Vipers on the lodestone are still level 80. Casuals are begging and screaming to make a job they haven't played at all and haven't even attempted to understand yet easier so they dont have to practice it at all lmfao. 99% of this community would cheer and clap if they removed all dps rotations and replaced them with the "damage button" because now they can be good at the game!

@@yeetusdeleetus4697 case in point, someone assuming skill issue rather than trying to figure out the problem. assumes people haven't tried it first, assumes it's all casuals, assumes they don't understand the job. etc. you should try using something other than your imagination for your facts

@@WoahItsCrazyMike​​⁠You just read the first sentence and then stopped reading didn’t you? I know this because your comment makes absolutely no sense if you actually read what they said.

not to mention having to execute it for hous in a row during prog, sometimes after a very long work day (which japan is infamous for)

They can play another job. There are now over 20 jobs in the game, why does EVERY job NEED to be catered towards 80 year old penguins with no fingers. We have Summoner, we have RDM, we have WHM and sadly AST now, we have Warrior, we have Reaper, we have like a dozen options for complete brain off, slow 1 gcd at a time gameplay, why do people who are slow and undexterous HAVE to play the fast dexterous gameplay job? Thats my genuine question.

@@yeetusdeleetus4697 That is a question you need to ask SE. Their stance seems to be one of hyper accecability. According to them, if you payed for the dawntrail expansion you should enjoy the two new jobs. My personal stance is that I dislike reaction based skill checks, but I am a gamer who generally prefers strategy games over fast paced action action games. Reactions kill checks for me simply don't add the difficulty I am looking for and imo also don't improve/change the core character of a jobs playstyle. That said, I understand your opinion and am generally not opposed to bussier jobs existing. I will just stick to the jobs I like such as Sage, Warrior or Reaper.

@@yeetusdeleetus4697 it's funny that you people keep using SMN as an example of job that isn't busy when it has the highest APM amongst the casters

@@rickmel09 Because high apm for casters is still extremely low, and that Summoner is objectively the easiest job in the game. You press the big summon button, then you press your colored Legos, repeat. The only optimization on the entire class is when and where you use slipstream

because you have people like this guy crying in the dev's ear "@Abyssionknight 3 days ago I'm a bad player, and I like the idea of making rotations less punishing. I don't do savage or harder content, and I'll still struggle to learn mechanics in later dungeons or 8 man raids, often having to do them 6+ times to understand the mechanics. Even then, I'll have difficulty splitting my focus between doing my rotation and monitoring the mechanics, so often I'll misalign my burst window with the rest of the party, or i'll mess up telegraphed mechanics, because I was focused on my bars instead of the boss. There are entire jobs i've never touched because just reading them makes them sound insanely complicated to manage. So for people like me, we need non-punishing rotations, and ideally the MSQ should ramp up in difficulty over time enough that we can maybe feel confident at least trying savage content. So I like the viper changes, because the less bad players have to juggle, the more we can focus on not wiping the entire group on mechanics, letting you guys get through the content with less wipes or struggle, while letting us feel like we're contributing. I know the good players want complex mechanics and complex classes, but that's beyond most players of this game." WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!?!?!??!?!!?!? in this guy's universe there is NO duty support or trust that LITERALLY TEACHES THE DAMN MECHANICS, he HAS to run with other players and wipe them, there is NO The Balance or saltedxiv or any other myriad tools that LITERALLY TELL YOU BUTTON FOR BUTTON WHAT TO PRESS..... it's sickeningly pathetic, and THIS is what they balance the game around.....

I doubt they'll touch the base combo positionals. I think it's likely dreadwinder combo's positionals.

is this a joke/meme? i can almost promise you you are not outdpsing pictos with a skill speed build on viper, i'd literally offer to come test it with a meter on your DC but don't want to get banned if you get angry lol

And it sadly feels as though they are the people SE listen to the most. There is actually zero reason outside of job does not function, to make huge changes to jobs based on early access feedback…

look at this way: a lot of people in wow dislike playing specs that are gcd-locked, because they find it too tiring to play for extended periods of time, or it causes physical discomfort/pain over a raid night so it's not a matter of being complex and requiring 30 spreadsheets to optimize, it's just the execution of the rotation that feels too busy for people

Easier than summoner, tanking and healing? No DPS is easier than those 3.

It will be coming off Coils (the followups to Dreadwinder), not Fang/Strikes (the red/green finishers). That bit of the rotation is brutal to execute without clipping if there's mechanics blocking positionals.

@@dhamp_this exactly people are just pretending it’s not a problem lol

@@omensoffate I think most people are just unaware there's an additional set of positionals in the Dreadwinder combo. A lot of the conversation is focusing on the Fang/Strike combos.

@@dhamp_true north. Also yeah, it also doesn’t help that the fangs combo part of the gauge feels kinda needlessly confusing at a glance for something that literally tells you the exact same thing that combo continuations show us already anyway

With the exception of Dreadwinder combos, which is where the change is likely coming, because thats a mess of alternating doubleweaving while hitting positionals. It's 3 *incredlbly* concentrated GCDs, with huge fuckup potential.

Which would be around 95% of them... They are a special bunch...

I assume you play on keyboard ? I dont have any issue with that on controller

@aromenoir9552 no, I'm on keyboard. If you're in a group with a decent tank who's holding the boss still, and party members who aren't baiting AoEs through the party, it's fine. In PuG groups, and/or if your latency isn't ideal, or if you're dealing with random AoE drops, it can be *incredibly* frustrating to actually hit the positionals without drifting. It's made worse by the fact you can't correct and use TN if you don't know in advance you're going to need it without drifting. Viper is awesome, and very elegant to play, but Dreadwinder has just got too much going on at once for it to feel satisfying to pull off so little a benefit. Obviously, we don't know what raids will be like yet, so its not an issue in content that matters, but it feels bad, and it feels bad for the average player in the average group.

I just use True North when that comes up and pretend the positional doesn’t exist. 😂

Meanwhile on the flip side the Japanese playerbase have also gone on and said they listen too much to the western playerbase

nope it's english players too... comment 2 above yours... " @Abyssionknight 3 days ago I'm a bad player, and I like the idea of making rotations less punishing. I don't do savage or harder content, and I'll still struggle to learn mechanics in later dungeons or 8 man raids, often having to do them 6+ times to understand the mechanics. Even then, I'll have difficulty splitting my focus between doing my rotation and monitoring the mechanics, so often I'll misalign my burst window with the rest of the party, or i'll mess up telegraphed mechanics, because I was focused on my bars instead of the boss. There are entire jobs i've never touched because just reading them makes them sound insanely complicated to manage. So for people like me, we need non-punishing rotations, and ideally the MSQ should ramp up in difficulty over time enough that we can maybe feel confident at least trying savage content. So I like the viper changes, because the less bad players have to juggle, the more we can focus on not wiping the entire group on mechanics, letting you guys get through the content with less wipes or struggle, while letting us feel like we're contributing. I know the good players want complex mechanics and complex classes, but that's beyond most players of this game." WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK!!?!?!??!?!!?!? in this guy's universe there is NO duty support or trust that LITERALLY TEACHES THE DAMN MECHANICS, he HAS to run with other players and wipe them, there is NO The Balance or saltedxiv or any other myriad tools that LITERALLY TELL YOU BUTTON FOR BUTTON WHAT TO PRESS..... it's sickeningly pathetic, and THIS is what they balance the game around.....