I also thought AA

I'm guessing you're talking about villains pre-flop play? He played his hand just fine.

@@EllieBanks333 not at all, he played in such a manner that he can only win the minimum.

@@ticenits1926how?

chael sonnen?

Phil massively over-bet in that hand with Doug. How many value combos is V losing to when hero just flat-calls the flop raise, though? Hero shouldn't have much 88/77/87 in his range when he 3B's pre over V's open from UTG+2, so V only has to worry about AA/QQ on the flop. Once hero flats V's flop raise, and at these stack depths, V should feel pretty good getting stacks in with KK.

I'm raising AhQh here all day. Not much more we can ask for in a flop with that hand. Depending on the opponent and my table image, I might raise AQo with the Ah. I see OMC's slow-playing big pocket pairs and AK a lot, but this hand sounds like V just knew where he was at once hero flatted his flop raise.

actually, I wonder how much AQo is supposed to call pre when you originally open from up front instead of outright folding at 200bb but granted it is live. and obviously you can't go wrong with raising AQhh, but I wonder if you're supposed to flat that sometime because you block the board so heavily

@@NewEnglandFish Just my view - if we open pre from UTG+2 with AQo, and we get 3B from the straddle, I'm not just going to auto-fold, unless the 3B is stupid-huge. If it's 3x-4x, and there's enough stack depth behind, I'm calling. Here, hero's 3B was around 4.5x, which is a little big, so I might let AQo go, but I might not, in position, heads-up, with this much stack depth. If I have AhQh and I get this flop, I think I'm going to be raising here a lot in V's spot. V can have all the sets, all the combo-draws, and all the TPTK. Hero 3B pre from OOP, so he really can't have as much thick value here - hero shouldn't have 88/77/87, so he really just has AA, KK, and one combo of QQ for value. Having TPTK with the nut flush draw gives us a ton of equity against the straddle's range. Even if hero has AA/KK, we have 9 outs to a flush, plus 2 Q's to make trips, and we can beat KK with 3 A's. That's a ton of outs, if we're not already ahead, and assuming AA/KK never fold to our flop raise. With AhQh on this flop, we can get value from all our opponents' worse Qx, their draws, JJ/TT that thinks we're just on a draw, and some AK that wants to get sticky and try to suck out. We might lose to AA/KK, but AA/KK aren't going to be putting a lot of money into the pot on later streets if our heart draw comes in, so we want to build the pot on the flop.

oh I 100% agree with everything you're saying I don't think it's wrong at all to raise flop. also, I said AQ off specifically might fold pre. AQs is an almost universal call

@@NewEnglandFish For me it depends on so many variables - the game flow, table dynamics, any meta-game I may have with the V, my stack size, how I've been running, how V's been running, etc. If I have a bigger stack or I think V is tilted, or just a bad player, I'll probably continue more often with AQo, even against a larger 3B size, knowing it'll be easy to fold if I whiff on the flop. The only real danger is getting dominated by bigger A's on A-high boards and KK/AA on Q-high boards. If V is a good, thinking player, he could have more AxXx suited in his pre-flop 3B'ing range, like AJs or A5s, as well as some less-strong pairs we're flipping against, like JJ/TT/99. But if V is a nit, or a maniac who's going to blast off post-flop, I may just let AQo go and wait for a better spot.

Against non competent players it really fucking is. Pure, not just Jh Jc, and with this guys flat to hero’s 3bet pre, he is most likely not competent

Against idiots, sure, but against competent players this is way too draw heavy of a board to fold to a single raise.

@@Jermo484 There's nowhere near enough strong value in his range on this flop for opponent to to have both a calling and raising range. You're pretty much always behind when you have Jh on this flop and opponent raises. Easy fold, really.

@@AlbinoMutant lol at thinking live players construct reasonable ranges.

Agreed. Almost no way you are ahead imo. Don't throw money away.

I'd think hero would 3B flop with AA/QQ, and he shouldn't have much 88/77/87 in his range when he 3B's pre over a UTG+2 raise. I don't think V was turning KK into a bluff. His bet can get value from AQs/KQs and hero's draws. With the stack depths, I think V's line with KK is fine.

@@1vailchris The Kh blocks a few relevant draws, so the main question may be how often Hero 3-bets with AQo pre, Straddle vs. EP. - Villain's play looks fine against an aggressive player.

@@Badbentham Not arguing with you - I'm honestly unsure if the Kh would change things for me if I was in V's spot. Maybe if I were able to slow things down enough to think of all the combos hero could have here, I'd find a less aggressive line with the Kh in my hand. But I think hero could have enough AhXh/Qx/T9 here that with the SPR, I don't think I'd be messing around slow-playing KK with or without the Kh. I just want to get stacks in on the flop.

I see many players who jam to end the hand. They aren't trying to get paid by worse, they're trying to make the hands that can suck out on them fold...

@@Dynamice1337 In a lot of those spots, it may be that the player is simply thinking "I can never fold, so I may as well jam and charge my opponent the max to out-draw me". I've been in that spot plenty of times, where I'm indifferent to my opponent calling or folding, knowing I have the best hand at the moment, but also that my opponent can catch up. Imagine being in V's spot here with QQ on the turn - top set, on a board with two flush draws and straight draws, against an opponent who 3B us pre, c-bet the flop, and called our flop raise, with less than a pot sized bet behind. Why not jam there, when you can get paid by your opponent's over-pairs and he may call with some of his better draws?

Not arguing against what you're saying, I'm just curious what the logic would be for checking this flop at a high frequency, or betting big when we do bet. I suppose it would depend on each player's range. I sort of feel like AA/KK/QQ/88/77/AQ/KQ/87 would want to bet for value. I can see betting 99 for some protection, checking JJ, and going either way with TT. Maybe we bluff with all our best combo draws. But with that wide a range, it seems like a spew to bet big. Maybe we only bet with our strongest value hands and our lowest-equity / lowest showdown value bluffs? It would suck to check AcAs and see the Jh or 6h on the turn.

So you’d flat KK preflop and then raise the flop? I think it’s a pretty strange line. Hero can easily have AA or QQ. Obviously against hero’s exact holding it worked out okay.

@@JohnSmith-nx7zj The way you say "flat KK pre-flop" is weird. Villain opened KK from EP & then called a 4.5X 3 bet from hero OOP in straddle. As opposed to 4 betting, which it seems like you think is mandatory. Then your way of reading hands is strange also "Hero can easily have AA or QQ". Hero could also have 88 or 78s right? You sound as if flopping over-pair with KK isn't strong. The way people 3 bet from the blinds these days hero can have most holdings worthy of a simple open. And even if villain read hero as being strong, can't he also have AK, AQ, KQ or a combo draw like JThh or T9hh. Hero is going to C bet with a very high frequency after 3 betting with that sizing on most flops. What do you think villain should do? Just flat hero's flop bet? Lots of bad turn cards... any heart, any ace, any queen, 6, jack... And on turn villain knows hero does not have AA or QQ, no way he just calls flop & checks turn with those.

I agree, Villain's line is pretty solid, this hand is only 100bb deep so you can get it in very comfortably on most run outs.

Yeah, I don't get the hate for V's line here. Sure, KK could 4B pre, but it's not mandatory, especially when hero's 3B size is so large that 4B'ing pre would effectively pot commit V. If he's going to 4B, he might as well jam, but if he gets called, he's probably up against AA, or at worst, AKs. V has position, so he can flat hero's 3B and see a flop with an under-repped hand. On this super-wet board, if I have an over-pair, and my opponent bets 1/3-40% pot, I'm going to raise, too. I think we have to in this spot, where hero doesn't have all that many 2p or sets. And if the turn is a brick, and my opponent checks to me, I'm going to jam 2/3-3/4 pot, too. I don't see anything wrong with V's line here. I might view it differently if it was a low, disconnected flop. But as played, V should feel pretty good getting it in on the turn. I don't hate hero's 3B pre with JJ, because he's ahead of a lot of players' opening ranges, but he could have just gone 4x, to $240, and check-called a reasonable-sized flop bet.

@@1vailchris I'm glad we agree. And I don't hate hero's 3 bet pre, but the sizing he took was too large. It was already destined to be heads up, there was no dead $ out there. I think 3X or maybe 3.5X would have been plenty. As I said, caller admitted he was shot-taking in this game & JJ is a hand people struggle with post flop. I think he sized up so big because he was hoping to just take it down. The flop came out pretty wet & I think I'd be raising in villains spot also.

You want the villain to be bluffing with those cards. The fact that hero has them makes it more likely the villain has a value hand instead of a semi-bluff like Jh10h or KcJc.

JhTh, Jh9h, JcTc and Jc9c are some of the most likely bluffs people use on this board. Having these suits skews him towards value rather than a combo draw.

In this case SPR going to the flop is only 3 as well. Villain doesn’t really need to 4 bet AA or KK to get all the money in, especially in position.

Bro, what? "Having Kings and getting 4-bet/shoved on is sickening"??? Not when you're playing 100 BB's deep it's not! That's the spot you wait for all freaking day, can't wait to get it all in!

Not to be that guy, but - V opened, hero 3B, so if V re-raised, that would be a 4B, and if hero shoved, that would be a 5B. The thing about this spot is that 4B'ing pre to any reasonable size is going to pot-commit V. Getting 5B-shoved on after pot-committing yourself with KK is sickening, because it's never QQ, always AA or AKs.

That would be three pairs of 87!

If you jam the flop he has equity with hearts. Jam the turn he can’t.

for example, why would u jam flop and price out villains bluffs?

Maybe if you 4-bet pre and hero calls, not worth worrying that much about AA QQ if hero raised to 11/12 BBs

It should. Hero can have 77, 88, QQ, 78 suited and AA. If you had 4 bet and gotten called, it cuts it down to QQ and AA basically.

@@Jermo484doubtful hero 3bets pre with 77/88. Almost nobody does that deepstacked out of position facing a single ep raise.

@@Jermo48477 and 88 are 3-betting preflop vs a +2 open?! That seems way too wide.

If we flat the 3B pre with KK, I think we're just looking for the right flop to get stacks in. When we don't 4B pre, our hand is under-repped. We can have a lot of draws and weak top-pair hands here. If our opponent has AA/QQ, and 3B's us on the flop, so be it. That's kind of what we wanted when we just flatted the 3B - to get stacks in on a safe flop. Can't really ask for much more than a Q-high, two-tone, wet board with KK.