Consulting Up-or-Out Principle Explained | Consulting Career Insights
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Күн бұрынThe first 1000 people to use the link will get a free trial of Skillshare Premium Membership: skl.sh/firmlearning02211
Have you heard about the up or out principle in consulting but do not really know how the up-or-out principle works? In this video, I share my consulting career insights by telling you the truth about the up or out rule in consulting. I am an Ex-McKinsey consultant and now work in a C-level role in Retail. Up or out is a key principle applied by most leading strategy consulting rules. It can be challenging given that it means that some consultants need to leave their firms. The Up or Out principle is applied by most MBB firms and even some Big 4 consulting firms. Learning essential consulting skills such as how to talk like a consultant can help you avoid ending on the wrong side of the up or out principle. Learn this consulting 101 to succeed at management consulting firms such as BCG or Bain.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:43 What is the Up-or-Out principle?
04:29 How does this really work in practice?
09:18 What happens if you need to go?
11:38 Wrap-up
This video was sponsored by Skillshare.
#consulting #uporout #consultingcareers
Consulting Up-or-Out Principle Explained | Consulting Career Insights
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@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
The first 1000 people to use the link will get a free trial of Skillshare Premium Membership: skl.sh/firmlearning02211
@healthgrowth4968 3 жыл бұрын
cool!!
@Minimalrevolt-m83 Жыл бұрын
Really appreciate for your help and contribution! God bless you...
@patrick_pkp 3 жыл бұрын
I literally just come for the z’s ... and here we have some of the best! Con-zzzzzzzulting - it’s mellifluous
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching Patrick ;)
@tamerosman774 3 жыл бұрын
If you can make us a video about how to have a presentable LinkedIn account that would be awesome!
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Interesting idea, thanks Tamer!! Best, Heinrich
@LanasLessonsLearned 3 жыл бұрын
I never watch paid promo sections on youtube videos - unless it's Heinrich's because this man deserves it with his QUALITY video content.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much Lana - much appreciated! :) Best, Heinrich
@lennardvdbrock3687 3 жыл бұрын
Excited about the topic! Thank you Heinrich!
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thank YOU for watching Lennard. Much appreciated!! Best, Heinrich
@collinkee1082 3 жыл бұрын
Always great, Heinrich. Thank you!
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Collin, appreciate it!! Best, Heinrich
@segelmark 2 жыл бұрын
In my experience, especially at lower levels, it can sometimes be as much ”Out-or-up” as the other way around - many consultants quit due to the heavy workload (and good exit opportunities) and the ones that manage to power through have no issue getting promoted
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Yes fully agree, junior consultants of course quit as well! (though if you quit because you do not like the working conditions, would not consider this being part of up-or-out). Best, Heinrich
@handokolie1992 3 жыл бұрын
I always learn something from each of your videos, thanks Heinreich!
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Super happy to hear that - thank you Handoko! Best, Heinrich
@alessiomatonti5211 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Heinrich, thank you for your videos, you are very enjoyable to listen to!
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Alessio, thank YOU for watching! Happy to hear that. Best, Heinrich
@benosullivan2013 3 жыл бұрын
Great video! Thanks Heinrich
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for watching Ben, much appreciated!! Best, Heinrich
@rishavjalan9 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Heinrich! Great video! It is for these real world insights that your channel really stands out for me. That said, up or out happens when the firm specifically asks someone to leave. Generally though, a lot of folks eventually leave consulting due to better opportunities elsewhere or on account of personal reasons. I have often come across MBB employees that left their job 2-3 years into it and wondered why they'd leave such reputable and high-paying jobs. As such, would really be interested in knowing the specific exit opportunities available and reasons why people tend to leave consulting. Maybe even a dedicated video for this? Wishing you the best, Rishav.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Rishav, thanks for your comment, much appreciated. Yes, what you say is absolutely correct. Most people that leave consulting do not leave because of "up or out" but because they genuinely want to transition careers and look for new opportunities. Especially for the junior roles below project lead, only rather few people are affected by it and therefore it does not play a big role for your daily work on these levels. Exit opportunities are therefore indeed another topic which is of course connected to this. Might pick this up in a future video! Best, Heinrich
@rishavjalan9 3 жыл бұрын
@@FirmLearning Thanks for your insight. Really appreciate you engaging with your audience.
@Kitetarifa7 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much, I'am 18 years old and I really appreciate your videos. I look up to you!
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Beltrán, thanks so much, happy to hear that you like it! Best, Heinrich
@rickymartin2887 3 жыл бұрын
Great Video.. you are helping us.. keep it up..
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you Ricky, much appreciated! Best, Heinrich
@healthgrowth4968 3 жыл бұрын
So insightful! Tough insights..
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you! :)
@yunush 3 жыл бұрын
Excellent insight again Heinrich. Does an associate typically get a hunch or indication that something is imminent (One way or another) well ahead of time or is it more of a sudden thing?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, yes indeed, this will rarely be a surprise but usually you will get several instances of negative feedback in the ca. 12 months before this happens. Best! Heinrich
@williamwilliam3351 2 жыл бұрын
So eye opening. Wanted to join Consultancy but now i think i am ready.
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Super happy to hear that William. All the best and lots of success for you! Heinrich
@TheSakshiverma 3 жыл бұрын
Hello Henrich! You are doing a phenomenal job. I found your videos, tips and tricks very useful. I am a Learning & Development professional and looking for some certification course in Consulting. Can you suggest any?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, thanks for your comment, great to hear you find the videos helpful! Frankly, not aware of any certification that will really be helpful for generalist consulting roles. Though stay tuned, will probably release an online course that goes in this direction at some point this year :) Best! Heinrich
@judyl.7811 Жыл бұрын
2:30 if you're not getting promoted, you will be asked to leave the firm. strict to tier 1 firms. 4:20 it's not possible in large strategy consultancy firm that you stay in same role forever. 6:00 very highly standardized career tracks: one year here, next year another. 6:30 you have a certain time window. high - performer who gets promoted early each year. late promotion... when next windows open. you're be designated. while other are not/ does not make the cut. 8:30 these are not surprise: there will be some performance reviews and this is the transparent process. 9:20 they want you to succeed. 10:35 in some situation, these legal might take into action.
@beautyageha 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your video again. I am wondering if being an extravert (always loved to be surrounded by people and constantly discussing ideas etc) is necessary to succeed in consulting? What sort of personality of people make it to the partner (or more senior) level?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Charlene, interesting question. Actually have a video planned on this for the future! In general, I do think that an extraverted personality will help in consulting. Though I know many more introverted people working in consulting, would consider myself more on the introverted side as well. You can for sure also be successful in consulting with an introverted personality! Best, Heinrich
@collaborativefinance5953 3 жыл бұрын
Please describe the systematic approach by consulting firms to place their staff into key positions at client firms. How does it work? Is it a way to get rid of underperformers (up or out) or is it a means of ensuring access to and getting mandated by prospect clients?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, while for sure many consultants move to industry and sometimes also former clients, I have never seen any concerted efforts of a consulting firm (beyond maybe the initiative of individual people) to strategically place consultants in any roles in potential client organizations. Of course, to some extent this just happens naturally over time. Best, Heinrich
@trendyboymx 3 жыл бұрын
How do consultants, who did not make the cut, sell it to the outside world? And what happens at the individual level for the average consultant? It is said that emotionally dismissal equates losing a close family member. Do affected individuals suffer emotionally or due to the length of the process and the multiple yellow lights turning on, the person has already come to terms with her situation?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, while you can trust that the firms will handle this very professionally, the whole process of receiving negative feedback, bad evaluations etc. over a longer period of time is of course not fun and will surely be draining and emotionally exhaustive for most people. This is also one of the reasons why affected people will in most cases proactively look for a new job and not wait until the last moment when they get the final decision. Regarding the communication to outsiders, this will often of course not be openly address and pretended that it had other reasons why you left (not want to travel that much anymore, looking for a more operational role etc.) Of course, at some levels it is quite obvious though what happened. E.g., if someone was a junior partner for 2-3 years and then leaves, in almost all cases this will be because that person did not make the cut to become partner. Though then this person already made it further than most people who start consulting, you can assume that they are highly capable and intelligent people that will likely perform very well in other roles. Best! Heinrich
@gabrielslater2739 3 жыл бұрын
I can tell you as a consultant that was shown the door, being let go was actually a great RELIEF for me. Working under a boss that constantly isn't happy with your work is stressful and unsatisfying. Regarding self-esteem, the up-or-out doesn't really determine how one see his own abilities for a few reasons: A. As a newbie I got to see great consultants shown to the door, most of which are doing far better at their new roles. So being fired isn't so scary. B. Consulting firms let you know what you're good at and what your not, REGARDLESS of being let go or promoted. I found a new job that focuses on my strengths. C. MOST IMPORTANTLY, I hope this would be covered in a future video by 'Firm Learning' - your reputation in the firm is everything. if you're unlucky to have your personal brand tarnished even a drop, it will stick to you. Once you leave it's almost the exact reverse, your brand is super strong because you worked in a consulting firm. The fact that you made it only to level X is almost irrelevant.
@rodrigobelinchon2982 3 жыл бұрын
My coffee tastes more interesting on saturdays ! So, if I got it right, a client of a consulting firm is always dealing with people that have maximum 2 years of experience in the position , unless he is dealing with a senior partner.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Rodrigo, yes this is indeed one way to put it ;) Some levels might also take 3 years (job title might change but the role stays the same), also from partner to senior partner is usually a longer time (e.g., 5 years). Best, Heinrich
@davidr362 3 жыл бұрын
Would you recommend leaving the company before it gets to the point where you are approached by, for example, the HR department and asked to leave? You mentioned that the company is looking for a new job with you, how helpful is this support?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi David, this is for sure what most people do. The whole process of receiving negative feedback, bad evaluations etc. over a longer period of time is of course not fun and emotionally exhausting, even though it will be treated professionally. If you have a good opportunity to transition careers, this is indeed what I would advise and also what most people do. People working in MBB usually also have solid CVs, so finding another job should not be that difficult in most cases. Best! Heinrich
@ajb229 3 жыл бұрын
As an experienced hire or post MBA would you need to apply for a specific vacancy or do they have an equivalent of the graduate intake?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
For MBAs, there is usually a very standardized career track that you will join, in most firms you can choose whether you want to join as a "generalist" or dedicated to a specific practice / function (e.g., automotive or marketing & sales) and will need to apply to the track of your choice. For experienced hires, there might be some negotiations regarding on what level you can start, though once you are in you will follow the standardized track for this level as well! Best, Heinrich
@Daniel.Bender 2 жыл бұрын
@@FirmLearning some companies offer a "fellow" program. This usually is used for a Doctoral degree after you join as a master, I think... But if you join as a PhD holder with work experience... can you still take a 1-2 year leave for a MBA?
@sandeepv178 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Heinrich.. what are typical roles people opt for after they are 'out'. I assume they do not go for consulting again.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Sandeep this will very much depend on the level that you are on when you leave. It is pretty much in line with the exit opportunities that you would have if you leave voluntarily in good standing! Best, Heinrich
@johnyaguilar4069 2 жыл бұрын
Can you make a video where you explain in more detail the promotion process: timing, promotion case, promotion approval, etc. ?
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Interesting idea, thanks Johny. Stay tuned for future videos!! Best, Heinrich
@mdshahbazakram559 3 жыл бұрын
Hey do I have to learn tableau six sigma etc other than excel and PowerPoint for consulting.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, maybe if you do specialized process / ops consulting, something like six sigma might come in handy. For regular job at e.g. an MBB firm this is not required / you will learn on the job what you need. Best! Heinrich
@tirannnus 3 жыл бұрын
Does this also apply to Investment Banking, I'm an engineer just offered a role at a BB and had no idea about these kind of things.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, yes similar mechanisms are in place at investment banking as well. Lots of success to you for this new role! Best, Heinrich
@bernie9767 3 жыл бұрын
Assuming a Consulting Company gets a lot of unexpected work or new clients, do they postpone or delay the “out” process until they recruited and trained new employees?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Bernie, individual clients alone will usually not make enough of a difference to have a significant effect on this. What is correct though is that these performance evaluation mechanisms are used to level out economic cycles. E.g., in a recession, more people who in good times might have been carried through might be pushed into the "out" process. Best, Heinrich
@benneuner3223 3 жыл бұрын
Amazing videos! I have a question about being sick. Everyone will be sick once in a while, and in "normal" jobs (even smaller consulting companies) this is not a big issue. Is it the same in MBB consulting companies?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Ben, there are 2 sides to this: The positive side is that while you are not on projects, you are not really "needed", therefore noone cares if you take a (longer) sick leave if you need it. During projects it can be tough sometimes - especially at MBB firms, project teams are often very small (2-5 people) and it can be difficult to compensate if an associate suddenly is sick and cannot work anymore. Of course, if you have a serious condition your colleagues will respect that and you will be able to take the days off. With milder cases, it is common though that you just stay in your hotel room and try to relax a bit, but potentially still help out with the most critical activities if somehow possible. Hope this clarifies..! Best, H
@dhruvgulati4489 3 жыл бұрын
How important is a Master or MBA regarding promotion in Consulting for companies like MBB or Big 4, IBM, Accenture etc.?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Dhruv, once you are in, the pedigree / CV is not important anymore. You can trust to be evaluated only based on your performance on the job. Best, Heinrich
@manishasakpal7398 3 жыл бұрын
Is this up or out principal also apply on partner or senior level management🤔🤔?? thank you for video 😀😀
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Yes! Partners are getting evaluated in a pretty strict way as well and need to leave if their performance is not good enough (Partner performance of course largely driven by the business that they are able to generate). Also, many firms use a two tiered partner career path (e.g. Partner and Senior Partner). The selection from partner to senior partner is often very strict and many people need to leave after being partner because they do not make the cut to senior partner. Best, Heinrich
@DAS_92 3 жыл бұрын
As I heard a Partner say: „You have to pay your club fee“ ... as a reference to the revenue expected to be delivered each year 😉
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidrieger8816 Hi David, absolutely correct! Though of course when you leave and need to give back your partner shares, there will be a compensation for that as well. Best, H
@Emilyghe 3 жыл бұрын
Question - if the team head assigns you to lead a project with a very crappy/incapable supervisor, how to communicate with the team head that you want to be on another project without bad mouthing the supervisor?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Emily, you mean a bad supervisor on the client side? Believe it is just important to make the challenges transparent that you are facing with that person, so that you are not held responsible for any problems that are caused due to that person's behavior. Best! Heinrich
@Emilyghe 3 жыл бұрын
@@FirmLearning bad supervisor on my side. I report to him and he reports to the team head. Also he always blames me for anything that went wrong (even after his review). We don’t have a good relationship.
@littlebrit 3 жыл бұрын
If consultant leaves his company, he will surely take his clients with him. Then how it works out for consulting company, if they have to loose clients and revenue when they force consultant out?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi, fair point! Though indeed if you have lots of clients you successfully work with, you will likely not be asked to leave ;) Best, Heinrich
@carlaleserri7296 3 жыл бұрын
An important question for me ! how did you learn english and prepare ielts test ? did you go to a course? i would like to attend of masters degree after my degree ( I already graduated on November in Med Chem) but i don't know how to take the ielts ...thanks for help ...means a lot for me
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Carla, made a video on my TOEFL test prep here on the channel some months ago. Trust the learnings are very much applicable for IELTS as well! Lots of success to you! Heinrich
@carlaleserri7296 3 жыл бұрын
@@FirmLearning why you prefer Toefl to ielts ? If you had study in Europe?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
@@carlaleserri7296 Hi Carla, just had the impression that it was a little bit more wide spread and accepted. But believe that IELTS and TOEFL is pretty much the same (also talk about the differences in the video).
@carlaleserri7296 3 жыл бұрын
@@FirmLearning i ve already watch the video this morning...the most important thing that I need to ask you .,,did you prepare the test alone? Or attending some classes? Where ? I have a lot of difficulty because university prepare for the test only if you are enrolled yet there ...
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
@@carlaleserri7296 Hi! Prepared alone by reading the official TOEFL prep book. Believe that my English already was quite decent though.
@shahree100 3 жыл бұрын
Sometimes firms will try to hive off exiting consultants to the their own clients 😀
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Well this might of course be a great opportunity for the former consultant as well :) Best! Heinrich
@ajb229 3 жыл бұрын
I have heard from other sources that consulting attracts very competitive people and the Up or Out principle encourages employees to compete with their peers which can lead to bad culture. It’s not something you mention in your videos but did you come across a lot of competitive people?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Interesting observation. Believe at least on the lower levels this competitiveness is not that pronounced as in large MBB firms there are just so many juniors that your performance is assessed independently, not so much based on how strong your peers are at the moment. This might increase toe more senior you get and the smaller the groups of people you will compare yourself against. Best! Heinrich
@allanlrutaisire1044 2 жыл бұрын
Hello, how many years does it take to get to the Partner level?
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Depends on what level to start. Usually around 6-8 years. Best! Heinrich
@palahbutoh 2 жыл бұрын
How many % of consultants actually gets counseled to leave? Am about to join MBB and quite worries as well
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Hi, thanks for your comment! Frankly do not know official numbers, though would assume that on the lower levels it is less than 10%. Most people also quit by themselves before they are officially forced to do so. Overall would not worry too much about this on the lower levels. This starts to become more important at project lead level and above. Best, Heinrich
@bbear1928 2 жыл бұрын
It is too late to join a consulting firm at the entry level if you are in the 30s, 40s or 50s?
@segelmark 2 жыл бұрын
The most common way to join a consulting firm in your (early) 30s is probably by finnishing an MBA. That being said, most/all firms also do lateral/experienced hires. They are often in their 30s and sometimes 40s. Some times consulting firms hire for specific sprcialists roles that might fit your expertise. For generalist roles it is often more common to have some previous consulting experience. I would not recommend joining consulting at an entry level in your 40s or 50s. By that time you should have built skills and networks that you hopefully can leverage in better ways.
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Great question! At some point you will likely be too old for entry levels. E.g., several firms have rules in place that ask Partners to leave in their mid 50s. Best, Heinrich
@nilimaohol4045 3 жыл бұрын
How to enter into consulting without mba degree? not all of us can afford it
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Nilima, thanks for the question! In general, an MBA is not required to get into consulting. I also started at McKinsey in Germany without an MBA. Lots of success to you!! Heinrich
@Slashtap 3 жыл бұрын
Why is it profitable to firms to maintain an up or out principle?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Johnny, probably to always make enough room for young and hungry juniors, and make sure that only the very best make it to the top :) Best, Heinrich
@jamescaley9942 3 жыл бұрын
So what happens when you reach the top of the pyramid? There are only a so many levels.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi James, there is one popular saying: "The top of the pyramid is just the bottom of the next pyramid". Once you are a partner in consulting, a new game begins, then it is not so much about the job title, but further career progression is about your relative role compared to other partners in the firm. MBB firms have different type of governance processes, councils, industry or functional practice leadership roles (on country level, on region level, on global level etc) and the career progression is about taking on positions of increased importance until you might become the Global MD at some point :) Best! Heinrich
@2thelucas 3 жыл бұрын
consluting
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
;) Thanks for watching!
@MarkusF460 3 жыл бұрын
Were you "up-or-outed"?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Markus, I left the firm "in good standing", therefore thankfully not affected by the "out" process of the firm. Thanks for watching! Heinrich
@markuswerner7271 3 жыл бұрын
What you studied?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Markus, studied Business and Philosophy. Best! Heinrich
@markuswerner7271 3 жыл бұрын
@@FirmLearning bachelor or master degree in economics?
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
@@markuswerner7271 Bachelor in Business Administration (BWL), Master in Accounting and Finance
@raulalejandromunozaraya3878 2 жыл бұрын
You just get fired here, no laws against that
@FirmLearning 2 жыл бұрын
Legal frameworks definitely differ by region. Thanks for sharing! Best, Heinrich
@Unterhaltung 3 жыл бұрын
Halbes Video voll mit Werbung, obwohl ich bereits für KZfaq Premium zahle. Hast ein Abo verloren.
@davidr362 3 жыл бұрын
😂😂
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Antony, tut mir Leid wenn das nicht deinen Erwartungen gerecht wurde. Mit YT Premium solltest du doch eigentlich keine KZfaq Ads sehen? Gelegentliche "sponsored mentions" wie hier für Skillshare werde ich jedoch auch in Zukunft bei manchen Videos einbauen. LG, Heinrich
@BillyG869 3 жыл бұрын
Instead of talking in some poor pronunciation, try moving up and growing. Start trying to speak properly...
@mikolastewart2458 3 жыл бұрын
Hey man, Heinrich is great - all of us here watch his videos to learn and develop. There's no need for this negativity, don't watch if it bothers you.
@amyd3754 3 жыл бұрын
Bill, I find your criticisms of Heinrich’s pronunciation and speaking skills rather ironic, given your grammar leaves much to be desired. If you’re going to critique the guy, than do it properly. For the record it’s: “Instead of speaking in...” NOT “Instead of talking in...” I found Heinrich’s video to be interesting because I was focused on the content, not his accent.
@FirmLearning 3 жыл бұрын
Hi Bill, sorry to hear the video did not appeal to you. Still thanks for watching.
@iamcherreymaiya 3 жыл бұрын
Maybe - just maybe, English is not everyone’s first language in this planet.
@carolinekoling424 3 жыл бұрын
Learned that many Germans accent is strong when they speak English.
@qutaibabs1 7 ай бұрын
coooooooonzzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiiting. german?
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