Its like having 62 Ser jorahs. Who thought it wouldnt?

Nope. First rule of secret plans: keep them secret. Jon has no reason to know. If he acts like reinforcements are coming, giving ground, refusing to engage, Ramsay will catch wind that something ain't right and then he marches back behind the walls of Winterfell. Sansa's and LF's plan depended on complete deception which is easier to sell if you believe it yourself.

@@gunkulator1​​⁠​⁠I’m not at all buying that Sansa kept the information from Jon so that they could sell the deception. She was begging Jon to get more men all the way up until the battle, and I don’t think she would have risked Jon’s life for the sake of theatre.

Yup she was probably hoping Jon would die in the battle then she comes to the rescue and is the top dog at Winterfell then.

@@kylejohnson1308silly right? When all she had to do was wait for him to mumble himself into oblivion.

@@gunkulator1not really

exactly

YOU NAILED IT

Zig zag would not have mattered. Ramsey had dozens of archers right behind him in case he missed Rickon. Recall that they all open up on Jon as soon as Rickon gets hit, hitting Jon's horse.

While very honorable, Jon proves time and again that he is a poor commander and poor strategist.

Only death pays for life, and there is power in a King's Blood.

She still shouldn't have sacrificed Shireen though - she had no right to. I suspect Jon would agree.

@@Silver_Owl Whether she had the right to do it is a different topic altogether.

@@nathan43082 Agreed, it is its own topic.

At the risk of Ramsey figuring out that Jon is refusing to engage for a reason, the most likely reason being that he expects help to arrive. Ramsey then marches his troops back behind that walls of Winterfell and wins by default.

You are right. Sansa didnt know how to explaim herself, but there was no better way to tell jon "dont fall for his traps" without sounding obvious.

Tbh, i had no idea he would die until the game started. I tought he would be only tortured.

Also, what if he zig zagged?

Not necessarily

Really? How about "The Vale is likely to come help although i dont have a response yet" ? You don't think a general could use this info ? Like I'll send a scout to see if they are coming. Maybe we will delay the battle for a few hours? Let the leader of your army decide, in every war the keyhas been intel.

Yeah, what he did to her will remain part of her forever, I think he meant

Nunca la música mezclada con la trama tuvieron tanto impacto.. Puro Arte Ramin

What most people find hard to swallow is that Jon is not a good player in the game of thrones. He's basically Ned Stark 2.0 and lets his sense of honor override winning at all costs. Sansa understands that Rickon is going to die but Jon can't and his reckless charge almost ends in complete disaster for his army.

@@gunkulator1 you are right. I think he is mostly Ned .5, and most of the things he does is actually R+L . Jon is basically R acoordin to everyone who describes R. Amd when it comes to honor, he is more linient than Ned. Ned woukd never sleep with ygrett or even pretend to join the wildlings.

@@gunkulator1 ned would not have been cool with Sam sleep8ng with gili, would never let the wildlings cross, would never sleep with ygret or accept to kill halfhand to join as a wildling spy. Jon has more spunk than Ned.

@@prico3358 Yes and no. We learn in the next episode that Ned wasn't quite as honorable or honest as he lets people think he was. He's willing to tell outright lies and keep secrets when the stakes are high enough. I believe he would have at least let the Wildlings cross given the stakes. I doubt Jon even knows about Sam and Gilly as I don't think either of them made their tryst public knowledge. As to sleeping with Ygrtte and killing Qoran in order to protect his brothers, that's hard to say. Ned started a huge war for his family where thousands of innocent people died so maybe he would.

@@gunkulator1 you are mixing up morality with duty an honor. What we are talking about is how mich would Ned bend the rules and how much does Jon take from that.

It's not the last second. Sansa and LF plan it out. Once Ramsay has his troops engaged outside of Winterfell, it's go time for LF's cavalry.

@@gunkulator1 I understand that Sansa and LF planned it out. I didn't say out of nowhere. It still was a last second save, just like Battle of the Blackwater and the Battle for the Wall. Tywin and the Tyrells planned their save, and Stannis's arrival at the Wall was foreshadowed, but it was still last second. I didn't mind those. But when every battle ends that way, it loses its allure.

@@gunkulator1 They still showed up with the last second save. I feel like you think I said "save out of nowhere", but I said "someone shows up at the last second". Whether planned by Sansa or not, it was still someone shows up at the last second to make the save.

@@kennyhudson9201 You forgot Dany showing up at the last minute in Meereen, Arya finding Jaqen in the just nick of time before she gets outed, Tywin showing up right before the NW recruits are tortured and killed, the Hound and Arya showing up just late enough to survive the Red Wedding, Melissandre showing up just in time to resurrect Jon, The Mountain having just enough strength to kill Oberyn right before he dies, etc. Meh. That's the nature of storytelling.

Did Aerys kill innocents, or was he going to? I don't remember him actually succeeding.

@@kennyhudson9201 His plan at the end, as Jaime told it to Brienne, was to burn the entire city with the caches of wildfire that had been distributed all over the city. "Burn them all, burn them in their homes, in their beds...". Jaime killing him (and his pyromancer/hand shortly before) prevented that from happening.

@@bill.godwin-austen I know. OP said Aerys killed innocents by the score. Not was going to, but did. I wasn't sure if I forgot a massacre by Aerys.

@@kennyhudson9201 I suppose that Brandon and Rickard Stark could be considered innocent victims. And Jaime told Brienne that he had a fondness for burning anyone who displeased him, so I don't know if we can account for thousands from that, but there were probably many more that Jaime didn't personally witness.

@@bill.godwin-austen Yeah, I'm sure there were more than a few people that he judged as guilty that were actually innocent. It's probably a lot more than I was originally thinking, but he was a really crazy, vengeful guy.

It's actually quite brilliant. Sansa and LF manage to lure Ramsay out from behind the walls of Winterfell by convincing him he had an easy victory.

​@@gunkulator1That's not brilliant why would Sansa not tell Jon that they have reinforcements. It served nothing but to lose troops by not telling him that.

@@MrSupertallblackman First rule of secret plans: keep them secret. When Robb Stark sent 2000 men to die as decoys for the Lannisters, do you think he told them? Jon needed to act like a commander in a desperate situation which is much easier to do when you actually believe that to be the case. If Jon knows reinforcements are coming, he would act differently on the battlefield, falling back and refusing to engage. Ramsay would figure out it's a trap and march his troops back behind the walls of Winterfell. The knights of the Vale are only decisive if Ramsay comes out from behind the walls of Winterfell. Cavalry is useless for a siege and they don't have any siege equipment anyway.

@@MrSupertallblackman It's basic military strategy. In order to keep secret plans secret, you tell soldiers only the absolute minimum they need to know. Jon didn't need to know about the Vale. Instead, Jon behaved like a desperately outnumbered commander because that is what he actually believed. If he knows about the Vale, he likely keeps withdrawing and refuses to engage with his troops in order to save them. Eventually Ramsey figures something is up and marches back behind the walls of Winterfell and then wins be default. There's no advantage telling Jon. There's only increased risk.

Sounds like this is the episode where you stopped paying attention. Littlefinger's army leaves somewhere after his meeting with Sansa, which was ep 5. They don't teleport. The entire northern army does not die and it's not for nothing. Sansa and Littlefinger lure Ramsay out by convincing him he has an easy victory. We already established in season 2 that a large mounted army can cross a long distance and not be detected (The Lannisters and Tyrells in s2). Also recall that Roose and Baelish made an alliance so LF can just say they're coming to help the Boltons against the wildlings, a la Tywin Lannister coming to "help" the Mad King. Jon's NW oath states that it lasts until his death - which already happened.

En el juego de Sansa tenían que sacrificarse muchos Norteños, (como lo hizo Rob) pero solo así ganaría la estrategia a Ransay, darle con su propia medicina.

ok i do, which is why i can tell how shit it becomes, look at the interactive map of Westeros compare the triangle that is kings landing Harrenhal and Dragonstone, All more or less the same distance from each other. Tywin even makes a point of wanting a full march before Stannis notices but the show makes it sound like he is talking about Robb since Arya is in focus and its a straight path down following the Kingsroad to kingslanding. The show cut out the part where Tyrion sends out his tribesmen into the kingswood to kill scouts and foragers. compare that to the vale having to gather 40000 men in their entire area but lets be generous and say they only have 10k even though they are untouched by a 5 year war. Then traveling lets be generous again only with mounted knights lets say 2k, through a enemy controlled war destroyed Riverlands past the Lannister army and fray army. past the twins. past the neck, past moat cailin past borrowtown lands with none remarking about that with a single raven during the weeks of travel. Or they went to gulltown got on the ships they don't have and traveled by ship to either white harbor who most be at least "neutral" since they cut out the Stannis and the northern (who have one of the best speeches and moments in the books) houses plot line or they landed in Bolton lands and traveled from there to Winterfell. so pick your poison, teleporting makes more sense. especially the fact how Littlefinger cruises across two continents worth up and down in a two episode back to back. You could fix it by having a small travel scene but no one in the writing room cares, and it is a thing not everyone cares about but it does make the world feel smaller and it is a letdown when considering what a torture the GRRM put himself through to make time lines make sense. the show could be committed to a consistent world but the show no longer cares. Yeah i grant you Littlefinger could be having a double crossing scheme going on but all that is off screen and never mentioned if that's the case. keep in mind how he sold out sansa anyway to Cersei word would spread that he gave that information anyway. Its like the writers forgets he exist outside of Sansa. So instead of making could or would have based on nothing how about instead Sansa sends Brienne to Littlefinger instead of Blackfish who at most have 100 men after the red wedding and Brienne has to wheel and deal with Littlefinger and he uses that to gain insane leverage over the starks and the entire north would be more his thing and open up a lot of story with him and give him purpose in the show again. Besides the mad kings sent word to tywin during the entire rebellion and was insane enough to think it worked. You wanna get into how the umber Bolton alliance makes 0 sense cause its struck on the agreement that a convoluted plan that the Night watch commander oath breaks to become leader over a wildling army to conquer the north, the deal is struck before that happens and only happens because afterwards Ramsey forced jon to and jon doesn't even want to fight anymore. But lets imagine Jon somehow is changed by the fact that he DIED and got resurrected he could be more colder uncaring or even angry and reckless and doesn't want to take time to build an army and just attack Ramsey premature. Could almost create a natural rift between sansa and jon. Everyone could be going along with it because HE DIED AND GOT RESSURECTED BUT NONE TALKS ABOUT IT EVER!, its insane imagine having died returned and it just doesn't matter. If jon just got captured by Thorne and thrown in a cell nothing would have changed. BRING THIS FACT UP for fuck sake. or at least argue "hey there is a army of 100000 dead men that is going to attack us this winter and we are all fucked" Like wtf does Melisandre do after using her belief to bring someone back from the dead? Like does none remember how she behaved when she 100 % thought Stannis was her gods chosen? She just sulks maybe? i don't even know after resurrecting a guy who have directly thought and survived her ultimate enemy. None brings up why the fuck Jon Snow, Ned Starks son the Commander of the Nights Watch is leading a wilding army to attack, Holy Oaths and your word is taken really fucking seriously in this world especially so in the north. Most people would want to behead him on the fucking spot. The nights watch isn't a joke in the north either. The entire northern army does die and it is for nothing, look how many of loyalist to the stark they have and how many wildlings just fucking die, and sansa could just have said hey Petyr Baelish has a magical army across that hill so we don't have to lose 90%+ of our men and we could rally the entire north with those numbers behind us, cause the Boltons and umbers are fucked against the military strength of the vale. How about how in character it is for Ramsey to be honorable and kill wun wun instead of jon and ask for a duel. he would just kill jon out of pettiness and because he is fucked no matter what at that point. If you want i can go into how all characters have character writing problems with their motivations and established personas, just pick one and i can go through how wrong everyone is. Just Littlefinger giving Sansa away when he himself believes Stannis will win and insuring he has 0 trust or relationship with her ever again, that's one scene that just breaks him, its so stupid. @@gunkulator1

@@Laketwig That's a lot of words to show that you really didn't pay attention. I'll address a few. The Vale doesn't need anywhere near 40000 or even 10000 horsemen to defeat Ramsey. Maybe a tenth of that. Cavalry dominates infantry out in the open. You apparently missed the scene where LF meets with Cersei and explains to her how the Boltons have rebelled against the crown. Cersei grants LF leave to take the army of the Vale north deal with it so, no, traveling through Lannister and Frey controlled land is not enemy land. LF also made an alliance with Roose Bolton so the north is not enemy land to him either. LF is playing both sides. Horses are faster than ravens and we've already established that ravens are easy to shoot down anyway. Clever leaders like LF send their own ravens with false information to create doubt in recipients. The Umbers bend the knee to the Boltons after Ramsey defeats Stannis, which makes the Boltons the only real power left in the north. Had the Umbers not given up Rickon and instead protect him, Ramsey's spies eventually learn this and then the isolated Umbers are easily defeated by Ramsey. That's why they bent the knee. As to Jon dying and the army of the dead, the NW has been warning everyone about this since season 1. No one listens and instead think it's all a bunch of exaggerations and made up stories, so no, they're not going to believe in a resurrected Jon either. No one outside of the north even knows who Jon Snow is anyway. There's more but it's pretty clear your recall of the series is quite poor.

The argument that the Vale doesn't need a large cavalry force to defeat Ramsay's army overlooks the complexities of military strategy. While cavalry can be advantageous, the size and composition of an army matter significantly in a battle. Simply having a smaller cavalry force doesn't ensure victory, especially against a fortified position like Winterfell. The claim that Littlefinger made an alliance with Roose Bolton is not accurate. Littlefinger's alliance was with the Lannisters, not the Boltons. Roose Bolton may have collaborated with Littlefinger for his own purposes, but there's no explicit alliance mentioned in the show. Furthermore, Cersei granting Littlefinger leave to take the Vale army north is a weak justification, as it doesn't negate the logistical challenges and the lack of narrative coherence regarding the sudden appearance of the Vale forces and how they magically got there. While it's true that clever leaders may use false information and alternative means of communication, the show fails to address the logistical challenges of moving such a large force unnoticed through enemy territory. The absence of any indication of travel or strategic planning undermines the realism of the narrative and strains suspension of disbelief. if you wanna play with the broken logic of what we don't see or hear about is how anything terrible makes sense go ahead and play that with yourself. at least you are on the same mental level as Littlefinger's retarded reasoning of everything is happening at once all the time. Raven's aren't easy to shoot down either its easier when you their only flight path surrounded with archers. The dismissal of Jon's resurrection as inconsequential to the plot overlooks its significance both thematically and narratively. His resurrection should have had profound effects on how characters perceive him and the decisions he makes. Ignoring this aspect weakens the character development and undermines the thematic depth of the series. its false and weak justification saying none listens and cares about the NW. remember you are in the north where the NW is respected. You don't think that northern houses would question all of this and then have zero care or interest when shown he has stab wounds in the heart. Jon Snow is the bastard of the renown honorable civil war hero Lord Eddard Stark who became Lord Commander, that is news worthy in Westeros most of all in the north. The response fails to address the numerous character inconsistencies and questionable motivations evident throughout the series. Ignoring these issues diminishes the complexity and depth of the characters and their arcs and you yourself is making disservice to the show you are standing behind by ignoring it. Instead taking the easy way out by an insult cause you know you cant argue it anymore. its the scared religious excuse, Everything makes sense cause god, shut up. .@@gunkulator1