Flair 58 vs. Vintage Lever Machines: Things to Consider!
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Күн бұрынThe first 1,000 people to use this link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/brianquan03221
Here are some considerations to have when comparing the Flair 58 to vintage direct manual lever machines! Let me know if you have any questions and thanks for watching.
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Email:
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Timestamps:
Intro 0:00
Which Machine Makes Better Coffee? 1:05
Big Differences (Shot styles, size, etc.) 3:00
Skillshare Sponsorship 6:55
Intricate Differences (water recipes, modifications, build, etc.) 8:23
Experiences 14:10
My recommendations & Conclusions 15:33
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@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
Yes folks I will be doing a video on the Robot! I know many of you have requested it for months and I'm happy to say I've been using one for the past 2 months and will be putting up a video about it.
@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat Жыл бұрын
Hey thank you for the video. What aftermarket accessories can you suggest? Do you have affiliate links to them? Where would I find higher capacity plungers?
@maetheechongchitnant810 2 жыл бұрын
As some one who also have both the 58 and the Europiccola, I couldn't agree more. Your experience is spot on what I also experienced. I'm also very impressed that you've covered the differences so thoroughly in a 15mins video. Well done as always!
@killercl0wn 3 күн бұрын
Which one you would recommend cleaning is major for me???
@maetheechongchitnant810 3 күн бұрын
@@killercl0wn Unless you want the 49/51mm experience, or love the vintage look of the La Pavoni. Go with the 58. Cleaning is as easy as it gets on the 58, you just wipe it with a towel and grease it once in a while.
@odl21 3 күн бұрын
Used a modified pavoni pro with a mazzer for 22 years. Just bought a flare 58 and a timemore for another home. Looking forward to seeing the difference.
@temmie-shop Жыл бұрын
Excelent video. Thanks for posting it!
@PONCOTOPGOINGSOLO 2 жыл бұрын
Been using LP for the past 3 years, and interested in buying a 58, this video is a real help!
@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
Glad it was helpful
@braxtonjens7839 2 жыл бұрын
I got a LPE for $30 at a yard sale. I rebuilt it and have been using it for 7 years now. Spro overs/ filter type coffee/ blooming shots are all fun and definitely possible. I would really love a 58 one day though.
@user-lv7ph7hs7l 2 жыл бұрын
Lucky SOB hehe
@nobantahir Жыл бұрын
one mans junk is another mans treasure
@hsienfushih 2 жыл бұрын
This is a great comparison and it did help me making decisions by going for 58
@hocwell5198 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! Hope you make more reviews soon.
@mspdec 2 жыл бұрын
Great video Brian.
@gregorio5543 2 жыл бұрын
Bryan, Im convinced youre in my head! Went on YT just now to search this exact thing
@jamesprater7192 2 жыл бұрын
La Pavoni for me. Easy workflow, minimal maintenance and built like tanks. I'm not convinced other machines have much extra 🙂👍
@mspdec 2 жыл бұрын
The Olympia Cremina crushes the La Pavoni by all accounts from the first releases up to the current day awesome models
@yandeslongchamps 2 жыл бұрын
@@mspdec the Cremina crushed my budget sadly 😕
@last1second 2 жыл бұрын
@@yandeslongchamps exactly lol
@mspdec 2 жыл бұрын
@@yandeslongchamps Lol
@carsiotto 2 жыл бұрын
How does it get anymore minimal than a flair? 😂
@zivz.3896 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! Can you review the Elektra micro casa lever and other spring assisted levers? And perhaps compare the result with non spring levers?
@mspdec 2 жыл бұрын
I found my newish (2021) Olympia Cremina only starts to tip when I am pushing 10bar plus (I have a Naked-Portafilter Pressure Profiling Kit fitted) (i.e. if I have ground too fine) which is above the ideal max 9bar. My Cremina is mega consistent and pulls awesome shots along with a good digital scale with timer and my installed Pressure Profiling Kit.
@davidhunternyc1 Жыл бұрын
This is the gold standard. Enjoy.
@MrKerner1111 2 жыл бұрын
I'm gosh darn excited about the Argos and Vectis.
@dashSlap Жыл бұрын
My flair original from 2017 has THOUSANDS of shots on it now. Basically 2 uses a day for nearly 5 years. Still haven't even needed to replace either of the 2 o-rings, or anything else!
@BrianQuan Жыл бұрын
They're fantastic machines!
@error404BrainNotFound 2 жыл бұрын
Great video! I love my 58 so so much. Added a plumbed in drip tray made for beer taps and it was a huge upgrade to work flow😅 really want a vintage lever machine too though
@devinmasters7038 Жыл бұрын
Is the boiler on the pavoni larger than the volume of the kettle? I’m missing the point on the water recipe one. Seems like more of a plus for the pavoni.
@carsiotto 2 жыл бұрын
I don’t know why people say these 2 are priced similar. They’re not. Unless you find a used Pavoni that you have to end up upgrading anyways. Or get lucky. The Pavoni new costs a few hundred more. Also, spend 1 week in the Pavoni group and you’ll see how much this machine breaks down. Looks great though but doesn’t seem worth it. It’s more about nostalgia than either good espresso consistency or quality build.
@TomJones-tx7pb 2 жыл бұрын
With the Flair, the heater does not heat up all the metal that ultimately comes into contact with the water. When it says it is heated up if you pour boiling water into it, it will get cooled down by starting to heat this metal. If you then wait a while, the water can easily rise by 5f, and be boiling where it contacts the heated metal yet still be a good temperature for making coffee. This is not intuitive to me, but is very consistent and easy to measure with a fast reading thermometer, like a Thermapen. The Flair is good at pulling doses like a single 18g or a split 24g, having a 58mm portafilter.
@anylookup 7 ай бұрын
What a great concise video that conveys what I've been looking for to make my decision i.e. will get both in the end but due to limited space and fun to learn will probably get the LP first (although have young kids). However, I have been reading reviews of the new LPs and a lot of people complain about their quality hence reliability such as melting plastics or completely stopping to work when left turned on. It's hard to verify which reviews are fake hence am thinking about a used one e.g. so called pre millenium but am a bit afraid my lack of knowledge might be a problem when things go wrong with the machine. I'm also looking at STRADIVARI which a slightly modified design wondering about boiler temperature and an optional upgrade to add a pressure gauges - are they really worth having to make experimenting more fun and achieve better consistency?
@jakobw135 Жыл бұрын
How does the Cafelat Robot compare with these machines?
@user-lv7ph7hs7l 2 жыл бұрын
Could you do one on pre vs post millenium La Pavonis? You got me curious and I saw my local second hand market place has a bunch. Especially interested which one has better temperature. The pre mill are the ones that run hot, right?
@chris9650 2 жыл бұрын
Yes they can run hot but you get used to it pretty quickly and there are mods to help stop this now too. Many say the oremils are better built. I don't know but I started with a premil and got the hang of it pretty quickly
@Nuggetheadification 2 жыл бұрын
Hey Brian, you mentioned the Cremina, I was wondering if you could touch on what warrants choosing that machine, considering the price difference between that and it's competition? Does it do anything different? Cheers
@BensCoffeeRants 2 жыл бұрын
I think he's got a video comparing the workflow / usage of both!
@murataht 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks and nice video ! Can you talk about how to get more espresso out of la pavoni. Cause I’m struggle to get a good shot while I do the Fellini… thanks
@BensCoffeeRants 2 жыл бұрын
I think the only way, or best way to do it is to just use less coffee, do a long pre-infusion and you can get a little more water through the coffee, and brew ratio will be longer since you only have 10-12g in rather than 15-16g. I like the ristrettos the Pavoni makes especially with a nice long pre infusion it works even for light roasts! The only time I got a 'bad' shot out of the thing was the time I let go of the lever or let it go back up a bit, I think it causes channels or does something weird. Maybe there's a technique that works using the fellini thing, but I don't know.
@murataht 2 жыл бұрын
@@BensCoffeeRants Thanks, that helps. I think i will aim at 14g in 28g out, which should be doable with my post millennium Europiccola. Considering the fellini being very popular, maybe some one knows the secret ...
@BensCoffeeRants 2 жыл бұрын
@@murataht I haven't looked into it too much I figure people just like saying Fellini :D but yeah lemme know if you find there's a good way to do it that works :)
@niko9942 4 ай бұрын
58+ is King
@wolverinegnr Жыл бұрын
What is the best manual espresso machine for home use in the $200 range? Thanks
@str8gamer964 10 ай бұрын
Flare neo flex $150
@SALTINECRACKUH 2 жыл бұрын
Would love your opinion on the Cafelat Robot. I'm considering all of these for my first manual espresso machine.
@Dartania 2 жыл бұрын
+1 would love to see this
@alexmontanus 2 жыл бұрын
I have a Robot and it’s very good. The 58 was my other option, but went for the Robot for its smaller footprint.
@thomasfitzgibbon1675 2 жыл бұрын
+1 for the bot
@aliakan9400 2 жыл бұрын
How you get 50-60 g yield with la pavoni ? I am only able to get average 35g.
@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
If you downdose 7-10g you can pull loooooong
@Kbaum752 3 ай бұрын
great video. the 58 has more accessories due to its standard group size. some day
@joeau5987 2 жыл бұрын
Hi you‘re always talking about how hard it is to master the La Pavoni.. I feel so myself.. maybe you could do a video on how to master temperature on the LP! :) There is a big community out there!
@chris9650 2 жыл бұрын
Just add a temperature gauge and try coffee and always pull a shot at that temperature. I have a oremil and I turn it off when pulling the shot, purge the steam out after the shot and out my cold spouted portafilter in it to cool it while prepping my second shot in my bottomless portafilter.
@LightZone9 5 ай бұрын
Great comparison. Now throw the Argos into the mix and it gets really hard to choose.
@intermarer9145 Жыл бұрын
Is going for a lever machine as a first espresso machine a bad idea?
@DaneButler Жыл бұрын
No. Weather it's your first or 10th espresso machine. A lever machine is only a bad choice if you are not willing to learn how to use it. Otherwise a lever machine is fantastic no matter your current skill level
@tomscott4438 9 ай бұрын
I'm actually looking at either of these right now. My issue with the 58 is that heating element is a little cumbersome with two connections and a sequence for unplugging. It also looks a bit fiddly in terms of how you detach the lever to add water. The La Pavoni has a classic look, has a boiler, and can steam milk. Yes it gets hot and you need to learn it, but like a classic camera (something I'm into) that is rewarding. Otherwise, just go to a coffee shop for the ultimate in convenience. Great video, but would have loved to see you pull a shot from each.
@ChristopherMichaelR 2 жыл бұрын
You have to be setting this up for the anticipated Argos release next month right??!! I think you hit the nail on the head with both machines. I was doing a lot of research between the two before buying my first serious machine (started with Breville infuser to , Gaggia Classic pro, then fully modded it, ended up with Mara X). If I were to buy one I would have gone with the Flair 58. Just a simple machine and not much can go wrong. 58mm= more basket diversity and more accessories. I have my Mara X up for sale right now because I have a Argos on preorder. While i'm waiting I got a picopresso. Still waiting for that picopresso vs nomad video and Lagom Mini review!!! Thanks for the videos as always!
@kg-Whatthehelliseventhat Жыл бұрын
Hey thank you for your post. I too am looking for an espresso machine. It will be an achievement for me in so many ways. Would you be able to give me some suggestions that you wish someone had told you. How do you like the Mara X? Are you still planning on selling the Mara?
@ILT12345 2 жыл бұрын
As a father of a 2yo who is considering buying either a Flair or a La Pavoni, I must thank you for mentioning about kids. Didn't even think about that aspect before.
@wakeawaken430 2 жыл бұрын
Nice video I don't own a lever machine, I like ALL of them actually As I remember there are 2 types of levers One just like the 2 machines you review, full manual process, and one just like bezzera strega or electra microcasa, that you actually pull down to preinfusse and the pull up and the spring takes control automatically with a declining pressure profile If money wouldn't be a problem, still don't know what to choose 🤣
@BensCoffeeRants 2 жыл бұрын
The Spring ones might be more consistent (maybe easier?) but I say if you wanna go manual go REAL manual :D Europiccola is pretty easy to use and get good results with (once you get the grind size set), you don't have much control over the variables though but it makes nice restrettos I find with 15 or 16g coffee in.
@wakeawaken430 2 жыл бұрын
@@BensCoffeeRants As I researched, the spring one was the basic design for commercial machines, you had a little bit of control if you kept the lever down as was going up, to drop a little bit the pressure, and yes it was much easier and faster on a commercial environment
@wakeawaken430 Жыл бұрын
@@BensCoffeeRants After some months i got a LP Millennium pro 2019 and i am totally in love With a group head thermometer you can be real accurate at extraction temperature and the pressure gauge is on my future list I will sell my pump machine
@bsayles100 2 жыл бұрын
Loved this video! For a while I have had a romance with levers, but seem to be too highly priced and the designs largely haven't been updated in decades to solve simple problems. Some of which you've touched on here like thermal stability. Currently Odyssey Espresso has a machine called the Argos in pre-order. It's a very interesting project with a very interactive discord chat where the development of the machine has often been influenced. Considering your interest in levers, Is this machine on your radar by chance? If so do you happen to have any initial thoughts?
@ende421 2 жыл бұрын
+1 interested in the Argos
@philippecasteleyn9327 4 ай бұрын
Thank you for not begging for subscribing.
@marylandflyer5670 Жыл бұрын
To me, if you compared a LP Professional with the pressure gauge and larger boiler, I’d get that every time. The 58 seems sterile to me.
@kevadu 2 жыл бұрын
Getting a 58 has only made me realize that my puck prep is seriously lacking. It's not a very forgiving machine in that respect...
@kristoforusranandiasuliset3736 8 ай бұрын
I must say, even flair 58 still nothing compared to the machines in terms of espresso quality and flavour, i still wish to have flair 58 because that is the best espresso maker to have if you are going for travel.
@murhode 2 жыл бұрын
Or you can just get a post mill LP and have good temp control and not worry about it....
@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
The post mill LP temp control is still incredibly finicky compared to the 58.
@gpapa31 2 жыл бұрын
@@BrianQuan not with with a thermometer mod (LCD Display).
@BensCoffeeRants 2 жыл бұрын
I have no clue what my temps are in my post mill but I haven't noticed it affecting my shots negatively, it always seem to work well, pretty good with light roasts and medium so far.
@r_bear 2 жыл бұрын
"single-dose water recipes" was not an extant statement until Spencer made it so
@zilla82 7 ай бұрын
What does that even mean?
@Fe_lix 2 жыл бұрын
I'm not sure to understand how a Flair is easier than a Europiccola. As you mentioned you have many more steps with the Flair on which you can create variation in your final temp. On the temperature ok the version with the electric group will have a more controlled group temp. But on a non electric version it's way harder than anything to control the temperature of your group... And for your water temperature it depends on with what you heat it, how you pour it, how long you take to complete the process, etc. On the other side a Millenium Europiccola does not overheat if just left idling. If you use light roast coffee you simply want to let the machine as much time as possible to fully heat. Most of the time people pull shots way too early before the entire machine is hot. The overheat issue happens if you want to pull a lot of shots back to back... It's not the most common use case for an Europiccola and if really it is it's easy to overcome with a wet rag (and I don't think a Flair would be very practical either for this).
@gpapa31 2 жыл бұрын
The overheating issue is apparently a pre mil Europicola issue. Post mil versions don’t experience it to that degree plus if you mod it with a thermometer (with LCD display) you will have full temp control.
@carsiotto 2 жыл бұрын
Most would rather press an extra button on their kettle than to deal with temp instability of the Pavoni. That’s how it’s easier.
@carsiotto 2 жыл бұрын
Also, you just explained how a wet rag is needed for back to back. Lol not an issue at all with the 58.
@Fe_lix 2 жыл бұрын
@@carsiotto not necessary because no-one ever bother pulling more than 2 shits on a Flait before to be bored.
@carsiotto 2 жыл бұрын
@@Fe_lix huh?
@PradyumnVij 2 жыл бұрын
More confused than ever now 😂. With a 58x and temperature controlled kettle can you get a similar temperature control, the electronic box is terrible on the 58 for me. The La Pavoni can be either amazing or very punishing. Although I have a work mate who swears by it. Is it worth considering a Londinium for your first lever?
@benfuct5880 2 жыл бұрын
I have the 58 and the temp box isn’t as bad as I thought, seems to help with the lighter roasts.
@zuuzuka Жыл бұрын
I'm hoping La pavoni can make 58 size..
@mr.ricochet8603 2 жыл бұрын
Being Italian, I must admit these machines reflect their cultures a lot... some of the pros for the flair are things that I wouldn't care about (like pulling longer shots... there is NO longer shot, they just don't exist :D...yeah we are like that, e.g. "carbonara no cream") and also the frantic research for ease of use that many american machines have, is not really a top priority for us I guess.
@noleftturnunstoned 2 жыл бұрын
how is it vintage if it is post millennial?
@beetleything1864 2 жыл бұрын
Well the design is vintage and has never changed.
@noleftturnunstoned 2 жыл бұрын
@@beetleything1864 correct, I just figured as vintage can also mean antiquated I felt that as the design has never left production it isnt really vintage. If anything, mid century is back in vogue as is minimalism, so really it is modern lol.
@davidhunternyc1 Жыл бұрын
For espresso and Americanos, the Robot is better than both of these.
@mikegurv1818 Жыл бұрын
Which one do you own? Do you think lever machines are the way to go?
@davidhunternyc1 Жыл бұрын
@@mikegurv1818 For home use nothing is is better than a lever machine. Keep it simple. At the low end is the Cafelat Robot. It’s capable of making the best espresso in the world. At the high end, which I’m saving up for, is the Olympia Cremina. It’s a heat exchanger, no pumps. No sound but the burble of boiling water. Nothing to break. Will last for decades and is built like a fine Swiss watch. It’s zen. Most every other espresso machine is made with cheap plastic and has a limited shelf life. If you have your heart dead set against lever machines, a great entry point to serious machines is the Breville Dual Boiler.
@sedelstein 2 жыл бұрын
If you like espresso, get a 58. If you like latte, get a LP.
@parasbhargava6047 2 жыл бұрын
The la pavoni gets tooooo hot and often the shot is overextracted. Also the heating element burns out. It's really more eye candy than anything useful.
@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
It definitely takes practice but I think that is what is the most appealing aspect of these machines. You gotta git gud
@parasbhargava6047 2 жыл бұрын
@@BrianQuan not sure how long you have used these machines. Everyone I know who has had them for more than couple years agrees. How long have you been using them?
@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
I've had my LP for around 2 years now and I keep it around because it is imperfect! It's the machine I pair with my Decent. :)
@adamgrubb5081 2 жыл бұрын
If you have a pre-millenium the 'Bong isolator' mod will help a lot with temp management. Mine idles a bit below ideal temp but a couple of dry pumps brings it up to ideal temp.
@parasbhargava6047 2 жыл бұрын
@@BrianQuan I gave mine up more than 15 years ago because it overheated. You are still a newbie with this machine.
@davidhunternyc1 2 жыл бұрын
What? The Flair 58 can't make a cappuccino. Comparing these two machines are apples to oranges.
@BrianQuan 2 жыл бұрын
You can always use a nanofoamer and even with a LP i'd pick a nanofoamer over LP steam lol.
@r_bear 2 жыл бұрын
I wasn't aware we were talking about cappuccino machines-I thought this was about espresso machines!
@carsiotto 2 жыл бұрын
Talking about espresso, not milk drinks specifically
@Yirgamalabar 2 жыл бұрын
It's like comparing a basket with perfectly ripe oranges and one that has both apples and oranges, but unfortunately some of the oranges are rotten.
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