Yep, and they weren't wrong either. The solids did hate and mistrust them even before knowing about the Dominion.

That is no excuse for their bullshit. They deserved FAR worse then what they got because they made the biggest mistake of their collective existence. They fucked with the United Federation of Planets, the nicest people in the galaxy. You don't fuck with the nice guys. Bad idea.

those nice people infected one of their allies (odo) and used him as a carrier in order to eradicate an entire species even if only a handfull were part of that initial idea, the rest of the federation (with a few exceptions) sat back and watched how it would play out cant blame them, looked like it was the only choice but that isnt exactly nice :D

@@lumpythebored I don't know if I believe the Founders version of events. We have no hard data to back up anything they said. It's entirely possible that their story is nothing more than large scale propaganda.

@@housecoatgaming As someone much wiser than myself once said: Never confuse meekness with weakness.

That's an interesting point, I had not considered that. I always thought she was lying to Weyoun (and possibly to herself) making her manipulations of Odo seem more noble than they were.

@@pittland44 weird. I never doubted it for a second. Not passing any judgments here. But how people judge the characters and species of this show is very revealing about them. One example is when I saw an atheist claiming Star Trek was pro-atheist in reference to DS9. To me, it’s like he was t even watching the show that was so wrong. Prophets, shape shifters being worshipped as gods…. Yeah

@@rowlandbuck2703 I'm sure you're right. How we see others is often a reflection of how we see ourselves. So I, being naturally suspicious and more than a little paranoid, would absolutely doubt what the founder said about Odo.

@@rowlandbuck2703 Some might see the idea of the Prophets (and other religious beings) having scientific or tangible aspects and explanations as being pro-atheist. Personally, I enjoyed how the Prophets in particular were handled-- whether a character called them that or "the wormhole aliens," sometimes they were understood, sometimes they weren't, and sometimes faith was necessary because whatever explanation might have existed was beyond the reach of the characters at that time. Sisko was the embodiment of that, coming in as a Federation officer and ending up with more faith than a lot of Bajorans. I saw DS9 as by far the most religion-friendly Trek show, maybe one of the most religion-friendly SciFi shows in general, and I found it really thought-provoking. But yeah, I can see how some people might interpret the whole thing as "well, they're just energy beings" instead since they did exist somewhat inside of the known universe (just in a very unique location and way.) And a show just having beings being worshipped as gods does not automatically make it pro-religion-- see Stargate, where every race that was worshipped as a god was pretty consistently recognized as being a false god. (For their part, the Stargate directors/writers did state in one of the commentaries that they didn't intend to comment on religion, more the usage of false religion for nefarious purposes.) For that reason, I didn't really consider the Founders anywhere on the same level as the Prophets in that commentary when I was watching.

When did she say that?

I think you missed something: Garek knew Odo had the KEY! If the Founder kept dying maybe she would finally surrender. Garek worried Odo’s ability to save her was their sole (motivation) bargaining chip.

@@Tigerman1138 This is what I thought when watching it.

🤣🤣

😭

Like how Sokka's girlfriend left to become the moon in Avatar.

That's rough buddy@@TheClintonio

Kira wasn’t Odo’s bf. She never let anybody get too close to her, except that priest. Odo desperately wanted her, but was too curmudgeonly to admit it himself until it was far too late. In the very last episodes she finally lets Odo link with her, ONCE, but they’ll basically never see each other again. In a similar tone, Bashir endlessly sought Jadzia Dax only to get Cucked by Worf, and then she died shortly afterward. Instead he got stuck with the disappointing and indecisive *Ezri Dax,* a straight downgrade that nobody wanted to be around (even Dax’s husband Worf.)

Roddenberry was kinda of a cunt anyways.. Sorry fellow ST fans.

that’s star trek (or it should be)

@@AndorianBlues I only clicked "show replies" to make sure someone had posted that exact comment :)

Japan ended on peaceful surrender.

That depends which type of war we talking about. Usually military conflics end with territorial changes, when the sides unable to continue use resources againts each other. If you talk about the US, they just conquers other countries and refuse to leave, which of course just elongate those wars.

Babylon 5 ended the Shadow War in a different, but parallel, way, by standing up to the puppeteers of that war and refuse to play along in their foolish philosophical rivalry.

That's what we're supposed to believe, but in a way, giving them the disease in the first place and *how* they did so kinda proved the Founders right about the solitds

@@InfernosReaper true but this all started after the Founders started all of this. It is a natural if unpleasant response.

@@RobertWilke A natural response by us, sure, but the Federation claimed to be better than that yet proved the Founders right multiple times Stuff isn't so cut and dry, which makes it a lot more interesting

@@InfernosReaper true it's never cut and dry. That said the actions taken weren't in fear but in response to aggression by the Dominion. All they proved was that if you try to control and overwhelm someone. They're going resist and push back as hard as possible. Sect 31 really only got started when it was found out who the Founders were and that Odo was one of them. If none of this had happened there would have been no need for the measures they took. As much as the Founders believe they are right. It's the actions they take that cause the way the solids act toward them. Basically a self fulfilling belief.

War doesn’t always grind down to the last man, to the last bullet, and the last breath. That is Hollywood. The Allies were planning a mainland invasion of Japan in WWII. Much like The Founders the emperor held the final word on all forces. A mainland invasion of Japan was estimated to cost one MILLION lives and casualties and who knows what kind of ongoing resistance…like say The Maqui…would follow? The Allies dropped the first atomic bomb and it was unbelievable…yet fighting went on. They dropped the second and fighting continued…like say an endless space battle. However, it became clear with this new weapon and using it twice the emperor (Founder) realized there was no point in seeing war continue if it means you too are dead. A meaningless crusade of endless killing which will maybe be history, but yet nothing of death. This wasn’t the movie “300.”When the Founder found out Odo could save everyone (the royal family)end the war, and assure protection it was time. Until that moment she had a hard choice: surrender and know the Great Link was quickly turning more and more toxic green and would soon be black matter ultimately drying up and turning to dust OR Or prepare to fight until to the last ship, the last soldier, making the victory a Pyrrhic one. The Great Link would be gone, but we killed as many as possible-meaningless spite to forever be remembered only in history which could distort over time. Odo gave third option.

I grew up with Star Trek Classic so that one will always have a special place in my heart, but DS9 sure gave it a run for its money with its equally fascinating characters and plotlines.

Best of both worlds achieved the same heights in two episodes

@@garycannon4644 Indeed, but these heights here are at the END of the series, they feel more epic and significant, cause everyone goes where they go and it's over. I love best of both worlds, dark as it is. I can't tell you how many times I've watched Locutus' monologue at the end, and "Mr Worf...........Fire." That music is astounding, (and it's 'highly similar' to MARS by Gustav Holst, (as is the opening of the first star wars film, but I digress.) but Next Gen never made me cry, not like this. but, I was a child. perhaps I should watch it all again:)

Nah. I like DS9 a lot, but TNG is something special. Putting a self-contained story into 50 minutes that hits as hard as some TNG episodes do hasn’t really been done in sci fi before or after. Although both shows have their own merits so we can enjoy both

I always wondered what she wrote if she doesn't have a name

@@RBSmada probably “Founders” or “The Great Link”.

She drew a picture of herself: a blob.

Yet the Federation are war criminals themselves who are not above genocide. They provoked the war, tricked the Romulans to save themselves amongst many things

Well they aren’t going to fight a united force without their allies.

The Breen are a historically secretive race who, much like the romulans, prefer to stand on the sidelines. Their alliance with the Dominion is their first major military alliance with a foreign power. Thus, we can assume that they would lay down their arms once they were defeated and return to their original territory.

@@MicrosoftPaintOfficial Weren't they erased/assimilated when the Borg reappeared? I'd think you'd personally know something about that...

@@VerdeMorte That's memory beta. We haven't assimilated all of that.......yet

@@MicrosoftPaintOfficial I'd imagine they could be assimilated through wireless connection due to having extensive cybernetics as a major feature of every individual of their species from birth. You'd just hear dial-up noises as they spasm in place, shuddering in horror as their minds are invaded by the collective.

pretty much

Odo, could have returned to the link. At anytime. That" was the female changling goal along, To pry him from the soilds. And his connection with them.

I'd also like to think that during this link, Odo showed his thoughts about not only his experience with solids but also how 2 solids (O'brien and Bashir) he considered friends risked everything to save him.

@@HippeusOmega Yes, that makes a lot of sense. 🙂

aw, cheer up, you never know that, be optimistic:)

You could respect the fucking franchise enough to have spelled its name correctly...

Don't forget Voyager!

What are you talking about? We have the new shows.

@@Starwalker-lu3ot Please tell me the names

She was smoking hot in general but I do agree she was definitely at her peak here.

To be fair what they fought was just a portion of their forces, maybe not even the bulk of it (plus the forces that the Prophets yeeted in the wormhole). It's likely the Federation signed a non-aggression treaty and perhaps established a new Neutral Zone in the Gamma Quadrant, perhaps gambling on Odo having enough influence to change how the Founders viewed solids so that eventually they would become more benevolent and less hostile.

@@kyrozudesoya1829 If I were the Dominion, I'd never consider invading the Alpha Quadrant ever again, knowing the Sisko is hanging out in the wormhole.

It’s one thing to live and die for ideals. Its another thing when standing by your ideals will get other people killed

Perhaps Odo developed a feel for it.

Interesting hypothesis, but Odo was nothing if not truthful with Kira Nerys.

I read somewhere once that Odo was originally meant to be a savior to his people so if true in the end he fulfilled that purpose.

Hahahahahahahaha count yourself lucky they didn't make her a slaver and a genocidal manaic

Kira has a nice cameo in Lower Decks. She's in charge of DS9.

It's for the best Kira wasn't in Picard season 3. Cameo characters in that series have an above average chance of being killed off.

Odo will help them with peace and understanding, I hope.

I hope not, she attempted a genocide. She deserves to be in prison

@@highstimulation2497 No, their forces in the Gamma Quadrant remain untouched. Meanwhile, the Alpha Quadrant powers are no position to fight another assault. All the Founders have to do is bide their time. And while linking, Odo also has to share that the Federation created the virus to begin with. I doubt the Founders will trust any solids after this revelation.

It's funny, isn't it? Because Cardassia very clearly starts out as a very blatant Germany expy. And yet we see the unpredictable shifting tides of war, the extremely proud cardassia, who thought themselves the superiors, and entered an alliance with another power who seemingly showed similar beliefs, ended up becoming the subjugated power themselves, with increasingly less and less influence. The Germany became the late-game Italy, after facing basically their own "bigger fish" reflection in the mirror.

@@FlameG102 After Italy surrendered in 1943, they switched sides and joined the Allies. That's what I meant. The Cardassians did exactly that in Season 7.

@@samsticka i know. im saying, cardassia thematically, started as a clear germany inspired planet, but became more of an italy when it found itself the subjugated and no longer the subjugator

@@FlameG102 Basically, the Dominion was the real Germany.

You forgot one thing. The Romulans as the USSR (after all, they also had a non-aggression pact with Germany/Italy)

You need the correct surrender codes, get like star fleet have captain codes to their ships

He has the same abilities as her and none of the draw backs

@@sebsignat8286 but none of the correct codes to order the surrender.

Seems the prime directive would forbid the Federation to do anything about it. Doing so otherwise would certainly invite revolt within the Federation itself for not following its charter.

@@oldtwinsna8347 the Prime Directive applies before a civilization reaches space flight (or is part of a culture that has space flight). Otherwise you could say the same about Federation involvement with Bajor

@@christophermcmanus5103 I think the Federation knows better than to poke around the Gamma Quadrant for the time being.

@@richardched6085 you think they will have a choice? Planet A decides to cede from the Dominion. The Dominion go to massacre the planet & the planet cry out to the Federation. Do they ignore a cry for help & let innocent ppl die? Look at the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in our history. An Empire collapsing tends to massacre to make examples of splitters to keep power. Despite the treaty the Federation will get drawn closer & closer into its politics

@@christophermcmanus5103 Why risk another war with the Dominion? Is it right to leave innocent worlds to die... Obviously not. But is it wise to endanger a recovering Alpha Quadrant to save one planet in the jurisdiction of another Galactic power on the other side of the Galaxy no less? I'd say no. The Federation wouldn't last long against the full might of the Dominion. Hell they almost lost against a small sliver of their forces. It is against the prime directive to interfere in another power's internal affairs (Think the Klingon Civil War)

10 of the Founders were prisoners of The Dominion War and were used for Project Proteus. Project Proteus was a secret program conducted by Section 31 on Daystrom Station during the Dominion War in the mid-2370s. Its goal was to create a new subspecies of Changeling capable of fooling all known methods of detection, such as blood screenings, and thus serve as perfect spies for the Federation.

Not the Dominion as a whole, only a small cell of rogue changelings.

It was rogue changelings.

then she would have killed him and given the order to continue fighting.

No the Bajorans were the Jews, the Cardassians were the original Space Nazis. The Cardassians got a taste of their own medicine. They were foolish to try to Genocide the Founders. They started the conflict

@@WAREHOUSE553 The Bajorans were Space ISIS. And the Cardassians didn't try to genocide the Founders. The Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar did.

The Cardassians were a blend of all the militarist nations of our history. Basically, any nation that ever thought they had superior culture, military might, and large egos that feed on pride in one's supposed cultural and military superiority. The Bajorans were the antihesis , representing all of the agrarian and underdeveloped city states that have existed in history that usually get absorbed or conquered by larger, more aggressive neighbors. The emphasis on spirituality and improving the individual while living in harmony with others makes them more or less the innocent, naive, pacifist minority of any developed nation's population. The Federation were meant to represent what a united Earth could have been. The focus is on expansion and exploration of the frontiers of space, time, reality, and most importantly one's own person. By trekking through the stars, Federation members find the meaning to life in this uninverse. Basically, Roddenberry thought if we don't nuke ourselves into oblivion or get taken out by a virus or AI, the human race may be able to advance both socially and technologically to the point of leaving this petri dish planet and become a space faring race. The Ferengi were meant to represent the opposite of what the Federation stood for. Yes, that's right - the antithesis to the Federation is not the Cardassians or the Dominion or the Borg, it is the Ferengi. The focus of Ferengi society is entirely on material and wealth acquisition at the cost of everything else. The entire foundation of Ferengi society is built on greed. This causes enormous inequality and the exploitation of the vast majority of the Ferengi population but to paraphrase Rom, most Ferengi do not want the exploitation to stop, they want to become the exploiters. I won't cover the Romulans (basically paranoid Vulcans that are too cunning and distrustful for their own good) or the Dominion (representing all the nations that were wronged at some point in their history and came back with a vengeance). Ironically, at this point in our history, if we don't end up being the Ferengi, I think our best shot at leaving Earth may actually be becoming the Borg. Humans are just too fragile and small minded to make interstellar travel work for a significant portion of the population. Hopefully this answers your questions and provides background for your debate.

hardly. They dominate the Gamma Quadrant, not the Alpha.

Torak8988 I completely agree.

@Shadow Man but the vorta cant live without the guidance of their overlords, they are bred this way

Torak8988 They might then simply devote their existence to the final commands of their gods: revenge for their demise. And there’d be no reasoning with them, no deterring them, nothing to do but try to survive their endless and inevitable onslaught. Going back to the original comment that started this thread, I don’t think the Federation Alliance was in such a position to impose such conditions. Getting the Dominion out of the Alpha Quadrant with no further bloodshed while admitting defeat was really all they could hope for. Being d#%ks would have caused the Jem’Hadar to start fighting again and to the death.

@@DLordSadow but the federation had a blockade on the dominion, we know that the founders minions cant propperly opperate united without the founders, which means that whatever happens, if the founders want the antidote, they'll first have to kill all their clones, so all in all its only a win for the federation and a lose for the dominion, see it as japan bieng undersiege by america in ww2

Torak8988 You are forgetting the Dominion proper in the Gamma Quadrant when you say the Dominion was blockaded. That was untouched and if the Vorta and Jem’Hadar devoted their existence to avenging the deaths of the Founders, there’d be no reasoning with or stopping them. Also, just blockading and not engaging the Dominion forces around Cardassia would ensure that the entire Cardassian population would be wiped out. That would mean billions dead. Plus, the forces around Cardassia might launch themselves into a suicidal attack on the allied fleet as soon as the female changeling died. Seems like a horrible price to pay just to give the Dominion the finger. And even if they didn’t and the Founders agreed to exterminate the Vorta (killing all of the clones would essentially accomplish that), I fail to see the moral justification for demanding a genocide as a condition to end a war!

My argument is that the cure is stronger than the virus in question. So even if Odo got the virus again, he would still be immunized.

like a vaccine.

the cure is permanent, Odo will never be harmed that way again.

Changelings are able to fool sensors when they shapeshift so it stands to reason that they have the ability to alter their own chemical make up. That means Odo can probably recreate the cure using his shapeshifting abilities.

He was worried she would influence him. Much less give her the cure.

Female founder taking out odo instead

@@sebsignat8286 No changeling has ever harmed another.

@@samsticka he made the choice to fight with the solids

Once cured, she could have instantly formed spears from each hand and stabbed them both through their hearts. ...for example.

am sure you are the fun part of your rallies. Do you still wear armbands and chant?

@@SantomPh yes I do. For when others want to hunt my people down because of their radical religions. Thats why thanos was right. Lol. If you knew the back story of the founders, you see why they are like that.

@@lothean2099 Well maybe if they stop trying to start wars people may start to treat them with respect. Remember they nearly started a 2nd Federation-Tzenkethi War and when that failed they started the 2nd Federation-Klingon War.

I shudder when I realize people like you watch Star Trek

obligatory "it's a faaake"

It's real as long as you believe it's real