He actually did it! The absolute mad man!

I’d be nervous with all that fuel vapor in the engine bay.

Have talked to a few people re results in this video. Some theories were, the modern fuel injectors being used here already do a good job of atomizing the fuel, over older styles. Manifold temperature; the intake in this test is very well insulated from heat, runs cold at almost all times. spraying into a hot manifold may benefit from change of state cooling along with general cooling. Also to note; engine ran a bit richer with the injectors in outboard location, possibly a better fuel mix. i corrected the fuel ratio before doing the test. Also had a little play with injector timing over a small range with no effect. Since there wasn't any fuel stand off issues I thought this would be the case. Edit: seems every 2nd question is asking about the injectors not switching off on overrun. simple answer is, i had tuned that feature off at some stage and seems to never turned it back on, so dont worry its just a tick of a box away

I don’t know why people dislike this video. It’s awesome science and engineering

Это просто топ! На русском ютубе таких видео не найти, спасибо что снимаете для нас такой интересный материал!

It's cool the engineering that went into this

Came here for more usual glorious 4AGE trumpet noises, added bonus of standoff injection. Marvelous video as per usual!

I just love these videos, please never stop.

Good shit man! I've done the same test on a bike. The throttle was delayed down low, due injector timing, and the physical distance. Benefits of top mount; cooling as you said, and more time to tumble and mix, making a better bang and boom. Remedy for yours is; Bump up the fuel pressure as high as you possibly can, makes for a better mist, lean it a bit more than standard location. And last and obvious, find injectots with acute spray angle and more granualar. Everything you're doing is awesome!!!! Keep it up. If you can build an airbox that ingulfes the whole throttle body and bolt it to the head.

this is the ultimate pleasure for ones ears

This channel is so cool! Staged narrow angle stand off injectors for the high rpm range will see a better gain. But really only a benefit for very high rpm engines.

The Yamaha R1 uses both inboard and outboard injectors, inboard injectors are used most of the time, with the outboard being used alongside the inboard at high RPM(when the variable intake is in the closed position). And at high RPM full throttle outboards are only used IIRC.

So cool about tuning. It would be great to see. This channel is awesome.

Beautiful video, loveve the slow motion 🥲😆😆😆😆😆

This channel is amazing 👌😍 also I would have thought that hanging injectors would make more of a difference... Nice to see that it doesn't

From what I know, BMW e30 DTM had 2 sets of injectors. Low - mid rpm were inside, while mid and high rpm were outside. It gave a lot of additional HP.

Definitely the coolest looking form of intake.

Lovely work, but you need to use a narrow angle injectors to reduce the wall wetting of the runners. All the puddling fuel on the runner walls are causing your vehicle to run leaner when you first open the throttle and richer when you close it.

"Freedom units" 😆😆😆👌🏻 Love the build.

Thank you for sharing the information! Your merch is awesome I love it!

I think you just saved me a lot of 💰. Time to buy some merch!

I'd love to see single primary diameter vs stepped primary headers! Awesome content you have here. Another interesting thing would be can WMI increase power on an N/A car that's not otherwise knock limited at all

Nice jury rig on the fuel rail, good results. I bought 1 of your stickers to put on my virgin roller cabinet

awesome work bro Thanks what i ever though about this was the best is to use both location low flow rate on the throttle bodies for low torque and response then you place high flow rate outside the trumpets but.... working 2 fuel injectors banks can cost a few compared to a basic one i drived newer injected cars where the injectors goes on the intake near the engine head and my actual car is a old one too, where it does use a old fuel ECU , placing a giant fuel injector on the intake hole, outside. and i feel that too , the response is a damn thing... more when do you use an N/A engine so now i am getting parts to work over an newer eletronic injection compared to yours the issue is : theres none ITBs i know would be compatible with my car lol

Great videos , very interesting results .

Nice videos. Really enjoying your content.

Great videos as always.. Keep it up

you are a real scientist!

In Sprint Car racing they run two sets of injectors. one just below the throttle valve, the other is in the head directed at the intake valve. This way they can have it lean enough for part throttle, & fat enough a WOT. they are running Alky

10/10 channel!

surprising and very interesting ,,,thank you !!

Thanks for sharing. I was expecting bigger difference, but it is what it is. Perhaps your normal setup is so well sorted out it’s hard to make any significant gains with simply fiddling with shit.

Ducati used outboards on the 998,but they were a lot closer to the TB. A lot of bikes use 2 stages though, normal position for low rpm and all for high rpm

v10 f1 which were the most powerful N / A engines per liter with that fuel used the injectors outside

Very interesting, thanks for the video! 👍

Its amazing how 200hp can make such a difference

And another thing. While having injectors inside, their angle and direction makes difference. Some injectors are pointed in the direction opposite to airflow, but I think it's only in forced induction, because it could slow down the flow a bit in n/a (i think)

Engine Masters did a very different test that yielded similar results: Horsepower differences between Carbed manifolds and Carbed manifolds w/injectors in them. The carbed setup made more power everywhere, due to fuel vaporization and lower IATs. Goes to show that carb specific manifolds and EFI specific manifolds are two very different things and they cannot really be intermixed and yield similar results!

Injectors are huge over 4x what you would need. Fuel injection on production cars works like this: fuel is sprayed on the back of the closed intake valve that is hot and evaporates the fuel witch then mixes well with intake air. Atomization is not important. Injection from such far away from intake port should be better but not easy to tune and use. On worm up is worse and probably at low revs and loads. It would work better in a hot intake that is bolted directly on cylinder head.

My guess-timation is the outboard injector location helps to cool off the air/fuel mixture. Appears to show benefits up top.

Beautiful.

great vid.

Best video ever

Your fuel pressure regulator adjust fuel pressure relating to the manifold pressure. By having the injectors in the wrong side of the throttle body at normal atmospheric pressure, effectively you're dropping the pressure difference across the injectors by 14 psi at idle. My tip is remove the fuel pressure reg vaccume line and run max fuel pressure all the time and tune to that. Cool video it was very interesting. 👍🇭🇲

great Channel

Hi Im from Brazil, nice video .... very explanatory!!! I put one 4 Trottle body in My Vw golf...and I had an increase of torque ....

Well both ways are effective if you on a round course where you can stay at high speed and rpm the before injection is your best choice but if you run hillclimbe or Star finish then you go better with after or direct injection

This channel is so usefull in doing all the testing that none of us have the money or time to test ourselves. You sir are the man! Appreciate all your time and efforts!

Just a thought, but the situation would be different if instead of ITBs you were running this setup with a large plenum and single throttle body. Because in the setup in the setup in the video the injectors are infront of the throttle plates. Whereas with a plenum and single throttle body, the injectors would be down stream of the throttle plate. So when at idle, the fuel would be being sprayed in to the low pressure "vacuum" of the manifold; the fuel would vapourise more readily due to the low pressure. I had a 2007 Honda CBR600RR and that had a pretty cool setup where it had a set of injectors pointed right at the inlet valves, and secondary injectors up in the airbox pointed straight down the velocity stacks.

Another Excellent Video!!!! Lots of practial knowledge....... 3 Thumbs UP! ;) "Decel Fuel Cutoff & 2 Stage injection" It would be "What a Rippa"........... Love Aussies!!! Kevin Thornton (Extrudabody)

I always thought like the 2 stage fueling of old blown injected dragsters

"Danger Will Robinson!" 😲🤣😎

How educational.

I saw an article in a Performance Fords magazine done on Glenn Seton's EL Falcon Supercar, it had a similar setup. In the interview Glenn stated the power gains were significant from utilising this type of setup. From memory the photographs showed the injectors were standing quite a way out from the inlet trumpets too, not even inside them. I guess if you're finding a few horsepower in a small engine (by comparison) with a jury-rigged setup and a bit of playing around, then a no expense spared race-prepped 5-litre V8 with a fully professional setup dyno-tuned to within an inch of it's life would see horsepower gains that were in fact "significant". Idle and low speed behaviour isn't really an issue in a V8 Supercar, lol. I've also read about some engines that run staged injectors - smaller port mounts for idle and low rev tractability and behaviour, then a gradual switch over to larger trumpet throat mounted units for high revs and full power use. Best of both worlds, if you will. There's plenty of aftermarket ECUs capable of running dual injector setups, it probably wouldn't be that hard to build a similar setup to stage the injectors. Something to think about anyway.

This makes me curious of what could be done to an old mechanical injection machine. I see potential for a long intake pipe and pre throttle injection simply injected into the intake, giving time to atomise and run without complex changes to the motor. Simply doing some sort of physical delete to the mechanical injection and setup a basic EFI system. Now I really want to try it.

Would be nice too see the full engine-modifications / specs in the description. Good video altough!

Great stuff! However, if you pump up the fuel pressure you will increase atomization by a lot. Anyway, lovely 16V! Sorry, I see you have a lot of fuel pressure comments.

very goods test, please i see the nozzles, is possible for you reduce the nozzles and increase the pressure to get better sprayer???

Look at a sport bike intake. My 2016 R1 has velocity stacks that move depending on RPM, and 2 injectors per cylinder. One at the end of the velocity stack and one near the bottom of the intake runner. Good enough technology to make 200whp at 1.0L

Awesome so interesting. I know it’s just testing but in the itb, you could see 2 shoulders up from the butterfly choking the air flow a bit. Also, seeing how the injector squirts out fuel like an old garden hose. I wonder if different injectors would be better to atomise them fuel better, or perhaps a ‘multi-jet’ type injector that does several mini squirts that might keep the fuel atomised more. Anyhow, great stuff. Ps I always wondered whether ceramic coating the combustion chamber fully would increase efficiency and hp….for a future rebuild? Cheers

Awesome stuff... its most crazy that i think you sound just like me lol

Smoother power curve is probably because there's less fuel being spit back out the intake or collecting on the walls.

I can see there is a lot of fuel running on the alu tube. If you make this surface rugh then you can have a small gain..it gives a better feul evaporation.

This is an amazing video to show people why polished ports are a bad idea, if you keep things slightly rough or dimpled it collects fuel and more evenly disrupts it.

Have you ever seen the new corolla injectors with a long tip pointing the injector closer to the valve?

Damn that induction noises

Try the forst method of position from the injectors for the secondary Injectors is very common method on the hi level cars here in European FIA Hill Climb Masters

Use duas bancadas uma próxima pra aceleração rápida , e outra distânte pra potencia... E assim que fazemos no Brasil pra ter um carro de rua e pista

Awesome, did you end up turning off the fuelling on deceleration on your ECU? looks like a fire hazard if idling for a long time...I used to run a second set of injectors on my megasquirt, though that was a boosted setup so they were enclosed...

Brilliant video. Obv' with forced induction the cooling effect should be more. Love to see that tested too. I'm contemplating mounting the injectors on my new turbo setup further away than usual up the runners (its got long runners) to see if I can gain something from cooling, but I don't want it to drive like crap at part throttle. Hmm...

while engine braking should there be a leaning in the mixture? I mea nwhen the engine rolls out the amount of fuel seems massive

Wow, that's a lot of added power. This makes me want to do the same with my 3sge. Wonder what a realistic power goal should be. Would 250whp be asking way too much?

if u make a longer runner but injectors are inside of throttle plate? maybe egts should be checked too 8 same injectors with rpm controlled relay?

I've had a look through your videos and didn't see any related to fuel injection timing, have you done any testing in this regard?

Try using both injector before throttle and after throttle. And running interpolate between both injector according to tp by percentage.

Hi Buddy, Very interesting. It would be really nice if you could run a test with 2 sets of injectors, main set back at the intake port and an outboard set of smaller injectors to be activated only at WOT. The outboard injectors would mainly be used to cool down the charge. If you could take a look at your phase diagram to see if injection is properly timed with the intake valve opening cycle. That might help in reducing fuel stand off .

Man I love all your testing Your the yoda Richard holdener But ....🤔🤔🤔 what if you wire the outboard injectors Parallel to regular after tb injectors But with a 3800 rpm window switchs But really gained not enough and I'm guessing the fuel mileage is running down your fire wall lol No smoking in car with ac on 💥🔥💥

Bloody impressive Mate! Are those pulls made in 4th or 5th? Any chance you can get RPM on the X-Axis in addition to Km/Hr?

besides fuel atomization will you consider air ionization for your next test ?

You'll get better gains from the outboard cause the air is alot denser with the fuel further away

You could avoid fuel puddles if you remove the ridges between the different intake components. That's certainly what causes the engine to run richer with injectors outboard. Fuel accumulates,is sucked in while being liquid and not vapor,so it burns less well,and is dumped on the O² sensor,indicating rich. Fuel is supposed to evaporate partially when injectors are external Depends when you check the AFR : on the whole run including idle (wich is supposed to be leaner if fuel accumulates in the intake) or at peak power ?

Have you also done injection timing testing as well?

Hi friend, injectors backward the flow will be interesting, but don't know how much fuel will be goind outside on ITB

This is awesome! Would you consider secondary stand off injectors for the small gains it made? Or not good enough performance vs $ ?

I would like to see if the injector position made a difference in AFR. If it does affect AFR retuned to the same AFR as baseline, and then do dyno run to see if there is a difference

if you have a big budget you should be running both setups in a sequential config normal position primaries for low revs and partial throttle and stad off secondaries for high rpm power

I worked on this engine(15y ago). an extraordinary experience. my friend, I see that there are defects in the intake runner . there are many more details you can meade and that would bring you a lot of performance. it is better to use a modern injector as type DEKA, use Textolite | Textolite Hgw 2082 10mm an isolator to relieve the engine head temperature of the ENGINE intake

That shirt is sweet dude

I love that most peopel wont even bother testing. But you do which is really awesome. Can suggest any new injectors for a stock 4age bigport bluetop(i know bluetops are smallport. But i have big ports? In my ae86)

How about both 😂😁 motorcycles have top ones that kick in at upper RPM, and the main injectors before the butterfly low-mid

All this starts to make a difference when those ITB's are ditched. When squirting into a smooth bore runner, the fuel returns to fluid. when squirted into a rugged bore with no obstacles, the stream stays intact and cold, and the mixture is more homogenous.

I have seen modified engines with fuel injectors installed at the front and rear of the ITB, but I am afraid that too much oil and gas will accumulate at idle speed and cause a fire.

all portions of the runner that have a fuel mixture in the air need to have walls that are not smooth. This is partly why you are having puddling issues from a very slick wall film that can't maintain its location on the wall.

Have you studied the voltage log with each run, does you alternator have enough grunt? Have you considered adding a teflon scrapper tray on your crank Have you u considered adding -hg vacuum to crankcase to stop ring flutter at high rpm and stop oil clinging to crank centreline. With the cams, did a new set of valve spring that are designed for these kelford cams installed. Titanium buckets and retainer will also assist in valve float and reduce harmonic frequencies at higher rpms. Given cylinder 4 is rich is it due to air starvation, caused by turbulence in runner and intake port shape. It likes 100degree oil temps.

I run DSFI (Duel Staged Fuel Injection) on my 2.0 race engine. I have AT power direct to head throttle bodies with one bank of injectors positioned right by the head and the 2nd bank right at end of trumpets like you have done. I use a progressive transition low rpm fronts and as revs go up it fades out and rears kick in. I do a 90r/10f % at WOT (wide open throttle) past 5500rpm. I've seen b2b we get 11bhp more and 14lbft torque due to better mixture. Your issue is injectors are too big. Use 440cc or 470cc

Why does your ecu keep injecting during no throttle rundown?

Wow i saw 150 and i was like oh yeah buddy 150hp is pretty good at the wheels for an n/a 4age then saw 150kw and i was like whoa nellie i wasn't ready for that that's bananas! Great motor! Only watched a couple of your videos, what mods does this thing have?

you need two ramp injector , one for low rpm and switch to the second one to high rpm .

Great job!do you try to change the injectors phasing with the outside injectors?we need also a video with electric water pumb!!

Compare outboard injection to some sidedraft weber itb's