Game Balance Twitch Lecture - Warhammer Age of Sigmar

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HeyWoah

HeyWoah

3 жыл бұрын

Stream recap from monday twitch show 6pm cst, where I made a power point and talked about general game balance and design concepts for laymen. I probably should've written notes instead of just wing it off the power point, as there are a few points I forgot to mention - like the complaint that shooting is "uninteractive" and a deep dive into why and if that's the case. And how the dungeon finder example caused a domino effect of many other problems with retail wow besides just community.
/ heywoah
/ heywoah

Пікірлер: 69
@tylerhamilton5320
@tylerhamilton5320 3 жыл бұрын
I would listen to this guy talk about anything. Love the content man, you got me into AoS and I’ve never looked back
@BlastastiC
@BlastastiC 3 жыл бұрын
8 Ironguts, 8 Ironguts, 8 Ironguts - BECOME UNSTOPPABLE
@malloc7108
@malloc7108 3 жыл бұрын
So I'm listening to the unit diversity bit and the bit you forgot about the "eel spam" problem is when someone who _wants_ to meme spam eels because their models got them started in the first place now can't be distinguished from the guy who is spamming eels because they're how to win.
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
Correct, you run the risk of misidentifying players who naturally just really like eels/stonehorns/etc as waac, when in fact they are just playing what they like
@eleanorrock8913
@eleanorrock8913 3 жыл бұрын
@@HeyWoah Exactly. Sometimes what they like just happens to also be good. I started collecting KO last summer, and despite having never played a game yet, I technically have one of the more powerful tournament armies. Did I know they were powerful? No, I liked the balloon dwarfs, and if I played a game with them I'd probably lose. On an unrelated note, this was an excellent video. I didn't catch the main stream, but you did a great job of consilidating the main points of it and editing it into a watchable format for us viewers in KZfaq-land.
@commandercostas
@commandercostas 3 жыл бұрын
@@eleanorrock8913 I started KO as well with the thought of "If I buy skydwarves they better fly" and cause I like the baloon models. I played on tabletop sim to make sure investing my money on the models wouldn't leave me hopeless in ever winning. It was against an OBR player and I feel so sorry for his loss.
@ac833
@ac833 3 жыл бұрын
This is me to a T. I started idoneth a couple years ago when they first came out for the sharks and turtle. Because they fit in really well with fuethan and the akhelian battalions it made sense to go with eels. Now I dont really touch them in favor of my tzaangor army because people aren't going to give me "lul meta chaser" shit for a silly tzaangor army like they did when my akhelian force was top
@thelordkragan1888
@thelordkragan1888 3 жыл бұрын
TBH, even then I think it's poor design to run a list that's just *one* or two units. Then again, I've dropped AOS in favour of conquest, and that game doesn't really encourage spam beside 'necessity' (like drones being theonly choice or the cheapest choice for 3 heroes)
@maxriley9540
@maxriley9540 3 жыл бұрын
Your content had made a huge difference for me as someone just getting into AoS. You are great at what you are doing and I hope it grows because you deserve it.
@thespookymage6294
@thespookymage6294 3 жыл бұрын
Your channel is one of the big reasons I have been really getting into AoS! Its a lot of fun and there are things here I like more then 40k. I like both of course but, I am glad I took the time to get into AoS instead of writing it off.
@RozanovaHunter
@RozanovaHunter 3 жыл бұрын
I enjoyed how this topic was applicable to so many other tabletop games, I've shared it around a bit to other non-AoS groups since it's covering a lot of universal concepts.
@GumshoeClassic
@GumshoeClassic 3 жыл бұрын
The thing about the "harder" (aka weaker) Blood Bowl teams immediately came to my mind as well. The last thing you see in the announcement trailer for the Greenfield Grasshuggers (the Halfling team) is the quote "Blood Bowl on 'hard' mode".
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah what a hilarious cop out, I was beside myself when I first learned it.
@Cinnamonswirlbot
@Cinnamonswirlbot 3 жыл бұрын
@@HeyWoah I think this misunderstands Blood Bowl a little bit :) Blood Bowl is trying to emulate a sport, and sport is naturally unbalanced. The Kansas City Chiefs would be the natural favourites vs the New York Jets, just like in Blood Bowl, Humans would be expected to beat Halflings. But, just like sport, you can have upsets, and that is what the Halfling coaches are playing for- they want the challenge, or they just enjoy playing Halflings because they're funny. GW doesn't claim they're equal, the teams are tiered in the rulebook- you know what you're getting into, whether teams are a challenge or not. I think blood bowl players would be driven away if all teams were equal, it would take away from what the players want out of blood bowl
@SzogedWarlocks
@SzogedWarlocks 3 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this stream (well, vod in my case) and I'm glad you took the time to edit it for KZfaq as well! Love your style and insight, your content makes AoS even more enjoyable for me.
@ElrohirGuitar
@ElrohirGuitar 3 жыл бұрын
Really good job HeyWoah. I like to play multiple armies just like I have played hundreds of Magic decks or all different types of characters. Balance, for me, is being able to play variations and be able to be competitive in everything I choose. That doesn't mean having a better chance to win, it means having fun while exploring the game fully. If I am better than another player, I can choose a lesser army or deck to make it more even. If the other person is better, I get to learn how to be better myself.
@malloc7108
@malloc7108 3 жыл бұрын
On the Rules As Intended thing: so I agree with you 99%. I play primarily 40k and the random rewording of common rules to make them not interact with previous FAQ answers is maddening. The one thing I'll say in defense for it is any tabletop game with freeform measurement is inevitably going to have a bit of fuzzing. Also, jumping to the army difficulty vs winrates: if you don't keep stats the easy army is always going to be overrated in your example. Playtesters can only catch so much before release and so the long term results are the high power difficult finesse army is going to slip by more frequently. Blood bowl, though, seems intended to be an RPG where you play as a manager between games (and announcer/fan during games). The rules are there to generate funny interaction more than a concise competitive game. The only people I know who play it regularly love the stunty teams... they're more entertaining.
@RyanEdwardsVA
@RyanEdwardsVA 3 жыл бұрын
Man I don't even play AoS and have no plans to, I just really enjoyed listening to this. Some solid insights on game design. Good stuff, I'll be sticking around for more.
@Curran_Kleen_Brown
@Curran_Kleen_Brown 3 жыл бұрын
Just finished this from what I missed on stream. Great slides and great discussion 😎
@BedlamPR
@BedlamPR 3 жыл бұрын
Really enjoyed this. Thanks for putting it together and uploading it to youtube so us who can’t tune in to your stream can also see it.
@Circuz36GamingChannel
@Circuz36GamingChannel 3 жыл бұрын
this was some very interesting stuff you talked about in this PowerPoint. i feel like fun is super important and it makes for good games. Also, the Wow discussion is so true and everything you said I have experienced one way or another In wow and on the tabletop. I look forward to more of these in the future! cheers!
@kelvinator90
@kelvinator90 3 жыл бұрын
Your intelligent game discussion gives me inspiration to work on my own writing on the subject matter :P
@grunt_9101
@grunt_9101 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you, I enjoy the turn roll and the you go i go absolutely exacerbates the issue when you think ahead and say something along the lines of "I win because this this and this, wanna save an hour and just concede?" I hate that
@greatfrito
@greatfrito 3 жыл бұрын
I haven't started AoS yet, but I'm still watching all your videos. They're just engaging.
@dariuschoksy6934
@dariuschoksy6934 3 жыл бұрын
I think the idea about optimization and fun is why I don’t like playing the highest tier armies because they have already been figured out and are usually pretty obvious, compared to like a mid tier army!
@rehvan8669
@rehvan8669 Жыл бұрын
Its great that you like WoW and Aos. Both my addictions in one place is great . For the Horde !!
@Zakon673
@Zakon673 3 жыл бұрын
To play devil's advocate here about your anecdote about the WoW group finder, in some cases I don't think that it actually ruins the game to give those players what they want. I am a veteran MMO player who started with EQ1, also did FFXI, and I played WoW throughout classic's original run. But by the time BC came around, I really was getting tired of having to form groups and deal with socializing with people just to play the game. Nowadays I would not play an MMO that doesn't have a groupfinder and preferably some form of LFR. I will never join a raid guild again and I hope to never have to build a party to do a dungeon again. I quit WoW because modern mythic dungeons require you to do that. I still enjoy the gameplay of MMOs but I'm not as huge on the socialization aspect as I used to be. I don't hate people, but when playing an online video game, the only conversation I really want to have with a stranger anymore is about fight mechanics. I find that I don't have a lot in common with other gamers, strangely enough.
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
One of the big asides I forgot to go on in the power point was expanding on why dungeon finder and lfr pushed them into design space that exacerbated a lot of the systems that people complain the most about today, gearscore, ilvl, raiderio, issues with gearing and class balance, etc. The convenience is top notch, and a substantial demo are perfectly content playing quasai-solo (which isn't problematic), but there was a better way without sacrificing so much.
@le_chimp
@le_chimp 3 жыл бұрын
Mythic is intended to be really difficult, you can't create group content for 20 people that is at the same time hard to solve and doesn't need any form of social interaction between players.
@Zakon673
@Zakon673 3 жыл бұрын
@@le_chimp Well that's why I said I'm fine with discussing fight mechanics. Also it's not like your keyboard is disabled in the dungeon finder. I just don't have the same desire to form a community with people that I used to. Ironically enough, even though I understand the point HeyWoah is trying to make, a randomized dungeon finder does not care about your spec or raiderio score and only cares that you meet the required ilevel to enter the content you want to do. It's when you have to start constructing the group by hand that you run into issues with those things, which is another reason why I'm not fond of social interaction in video games anymore. So... I dunno, I'm not sure it's the dungeon finder that caused that. It's the fact you can draw from multiple servers while constructing a group yourself. Unfortunately, heroics are laughably easy to the point of being boring and give very poor rewards, so we're in this worst of both worlds scenario now where there's no personalized server-by-server community but you still need to interact with other players to get anything done.
@briancline7349
@briancline7349 3 жыл бұрын
From what I’ve seen inter faction balance is a huge issue in AoS with all the Warscrolls experts call “traps”. It has gotten significantly better but it’s still seems to be a big issue, especially in the factions that need updates (Lumineth seems to be an example of how to do this right, except for them needing many more units to be seen as a proper, full faction). Being someone who likes Wargames for the games first (and someone who loves faction variety not just for war but also just as much for the different play styles) I disagree though that rule diversity is less important. Oh and here in AoS I don’t think there is really a place for straight up “bad cards”, at least not as many as there are now. Oh and Conga lines aren’t just visually unaesthetic, they are also unaesthetic from a gameplay perspective.
@philipkelly7369
@philipkelly7369 2 жыл бұрын
I think you might have been meaning to say intra-faction balance (balance amongst different options inside of one faction) instead of inter-faction balance (balance between two different faction options or factions as a whole) but I can't tell for certain
@Aconspiracyofravens1
@Aconspiracyofravens1 2 жыл бұрын
ayyyyyyy, I see youve seen the best gdc talk as well, awesome
@briancline7349
@briancline7349 3 жыл бұрын
Stormcast seem like a faction where the rules really don’t match the lore... there are a variety of ways this is true but to keep it simple I’ll focus on their armor (saves). They are in full plate for Christ’s sake but their saves totally don’t reflect that at all especially when compared to other units with far less armor on their models. I’m not saying they should all be at 2+ saves but they should be meta wise more equivalent to the Space Marines than they are. I do agree that many of the warscrolls seem written to match who would like the visual appeal of the unit (same for data cards in 40k). I love the high elf aesthetic and Eldar in 40k (I also like Necrons), and the tricky, glass cannon and powers intensive style of them really appeals to me.
@Nubloot
@Nubloot 3 жыл бұрын
Your point in wow dungeon finder is so true. I hated it when that was added. The game doesn’t feel like an mmo really, people just sat in main cities waiting in the queues. I got back on retail and when I wasn’t playing with friends it’s pretty boring, nobody talks to anyone or helps each other anymore.
@TheDukeofOok
@TheDukeofOok 3 жыл бұрын
I hear they are bad and I jumped into Gloomspite Gitz and I am going all in on squigs. Did I make a mistake? They look cool as shit.
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
No mistakes detected - check out their new rules in the white dwarf
@TheDukeofOok
@TheDukeofOok 3 жыл бұрын
@@HeyWoah Thats the "extra damage if they are in the battalion" one right?
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
@@TheDukeofOok yeah jaws of mork sub faction
@NMahon
@NMahon 3 жыл бұрын
Listen buddy, the rules are changing all the time. These models are expensive, go with what you love! Gloomspite are rad, you're gonna have the models for a long time and the rules will change a lot. What's amazing now might be terrible next year and vica versa! Also most people you play aren't hardcore power gamers they just want a fun game! Squigs are awesome dont let anyone tell you otherwise!
@elias1579
@elias1579 3 жыл бұрын
I see past game developers mistakes, I see the inadequacy and correct it to make the game more enjoyable experience for my opponent and myself. Those corrections are how they intended, not how a player would exploit it
@risingdawn5259
@risingdawn5259 3 жыл бұрын
Nailed the WoW analogy.
@morshuthemerchant4105
@morshuthemerchant4105 3 жыл бұрын
Hey what do you think about the Host Of Chaos faction and the other chaos sub factions in Wrath Of The Everchosen?
@osogitzgraymane72
@osogitzgraymane72 3 жыл бұрын
Another thing that needs to be kept in mind is battlefield roles and how that looks on the table. For example, chaff can also be confused as "spam". You look at a table, you see 30-40 skeletons, you might think its spam but that is battleline and is part of playing a game. How do you balance that on the board? Especially something like clan rats where there's seemingly 60-70 rats that are kinda the same. Then you have to balance design creep with buffs and nerfs. Hedonites for example. An army that is suppose to revel in its sadism/masochism but isnt durable enough to do so but if you make it too durable it snowballs out of control. Also, if you dont RP your power gaming, you are doin it wrong.
@philipkelly7369
@philipkelly7369 2 жыл бұрын
Hey that's a Rosewater quote "And yes this is a Mark Rosewater quote" Ha!
@mixfrog6190
@mixfrog6190 3 жыл бұрын
It will be wondeful, if ANY game designer from GW would see this leecture. Sometimes it looks like they just PHYSICALY can't understand this base concepts.
@Tartersauce101
@Tartersauce101 3 жыл бұрын
Classic WoW was so much fun. Hope they do TBC soon.
@Xenaisthebusiness
@Xenaisthebusiness 3 жыл бұрын
Finally sorceress on black dragon can be a unique named character
@joshuaandersen1075
@joshuaandersen1075 2 жыл бұрын
more questions / comments because I'm really loving this video: I REALLY feel you on the in-faction diversity bit. when I tried to get into AOS I went right to Deepkin. I mean, blind cannibal undersea elf pirates!? that's pretty bad ass. so I got the collecting box and the army book and I was..... unhappy with the unit variety I had to choose from. so I never moved past that point. I also, as an old whfb fan, find the game very non-interactive sometimes. is this to much to get past to enjoy the game?
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 2 жыл бұрын
IDK was the single worst example of this I think in the whole game, and it's been improved a bit. I don't think it's too much to get past.
@Ghostie-VK
@Ghostie-VK 3 жыл бұрын
Not trying to "um actually" you, I want to share a fun fact, the so hungry they eat themself story originates from Greek mythology with the story of, lemme goodie his name, "Erysichthon"
@TrippyTheShroom
@TrippyTheShroom 3 жыл бұрын
You make me want to play AoS.
@sebastianlindner8178
@sebastianlindner8178 3 жыл бұрын
Don't know if you are familiar with Infinity, but they nail it nowadays. Every unit in the game has a purpose and as a player you want to possess a wide variety of units to be flexible. That's the best case for players and the miniature producers. Variety in units keeps the game fresh (it's much more fun to play against a wide variety of units and not encounter the same list again and again...) and you are incentivised to buy a lot of minis, which should be in the manufacterers interest. GW was never great in balancing their games, which is a big shame.
@stephenchurch1784
@stephenchurch1784 2 жыл бұрын
You have any thoughts on Mordheim? I think it's got a pretty good balance on the casual/try hard spectrum. The game is very much tilted towards skill based play because the warbands are really well balanced compared to aos but, when you as a new player make a mistake, it's extremely easy to identify what went wrong and how to fix it in future games because of how catastrophic the consequences are.
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 2 жыл бұрын
Never looked into it tbh, though I've heard people like it.
@Hedonite
@Hedonite Жыл бұрын
The two trees werent enough either
@14DEADSOUL
@14DEADSOUL 3 жыл бұрын
Good vid
@CartoreAOS
@CartoreAOS 3 жыл бұрын
Heywoah they took away my gunshoes in the maw. help me dad
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
FUN DETECTED
@CartoreAOS
@CartoreAOS 3 жыл бұрын
@@HeyWoah I feel like your intro was almost preach esque. Not bad.
@HeyWoah
@HeyWoah 3 жыл бұрын
@@CartoreAOS the preview few seconds has to be snappy - I mostly don't mind preach tbh.
@ungface
@ungface 3 жыл бұрын
The think you do but you dont guy is also the guy that signed off on creating classic wow. Its a big oof moment but some respect is due as he obviously decided that he was wrong in the end.
@travislankford9254
@travislankford9254 3 жыл бұрын
Moar Ted Talks!
@vizjereigaucho6469
@vizjereigaucho6469 11 ай бұрын
ABC
@dingding12321
@dingding12321 3 жыл бұрын
I do appreciate how GW bothers nerfing clearly out-of-line lists and buffing pseudo-trash like Nighthaunt. What I wish they would do is straight-up nerf the ways that keep entire armies from interacting, and buff other things about said armies that abused it. Limiting Endless Spells was a good start - limiting shooting phases to where double turns don't skew the game heavily in their favor is another. Tzeench-like armies are absolutely and ludicrously un-fun, regardless of their WR. Something as simple as nerfing charge rolls and ranged attacks during double turns could go a long way towards making the game a lot more fun, regardless of all the bells and whistles.
@niilofriden4465
@niilofriden4465 3 жыл бұрын
..................
@TheSixYardBox
@TheSixYardBox 3 жыл бұрын
just get rid of leader x unlocks super rare unit Y to be battleline and the spamming problem would go away for the most part. the ida of strong units in most games is they are RARE and expensive yet aos reward players for taking these really strong and rare units. i get it, some people just want to run 4 bloodthirsters or 18 eels, but why have 3 different ways of playing if all 3 ways allow people to take the pi** with these kind of units? bring back the core special and rare from fantasy imo.
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