Whereas Daenerys has been largely autonomous since almost the beginning of the series. It would have been so interesting to have seen this dichotomy explored.

And the safety that comes with it. She was fine with her brothers being in charge, be that Jon as king or Bran as lord of Winterfell - as long as it was one of her own that she could trust she felt safe. So much for her being "power hungry" or "Cersei 2.0".

@@lisahuber9329 I mean Cersei arguably also wanted Autonomy and Safety, just seemed to believe that she could only gain those things with more power.

To me it all just screams "Scotland!!!"

@@eric2500more like Brexit but I do see your point.

LOL yes at the very least the end of GOT served the memes.

@@HillsAliveYT coughing Varys comes to mind 😂

She can't help smiling because it was the BEST. SEASON. EVER. EVER, EVER. The faces she made in that interview still crack me up to this day.

Resting bitch face. I loved it.

This! It is ridiculous how many people hate Sansa for the "crime" of being a 13 year old girl who was raised to be a lady and therefore acts like one. Imagine wanting to punish a teenage girl for having a crush on a boy who turned out to be abusive. She's literally a victim.

@@leelahasan3988 Same way Tommen gets a lot of hate for no reason when he was forced to be King after his brother got murdered, people hate him for being "too weak" or "soft" when he was a literal child, it's unfair and makes no sense.

Given her circumstances I'd say she was actually a strong character, until the writing got bad enough that none of the characters could be impressive anymore.

@@RedRoseSeptember22 it's so stupid. i'll never understand people who resent children for not being adults

@@leelahasan3988 best honest opinion!!! It's that same thinking that makes adults feel like they get to decide physical punishment for children without a trial like they would an adult....adults from the age of 18 to 65 get to decide the treatment of family members >18 to

Thanks! And obviously I totally agree.

What if you're wrong?

@@juanitajones6900 well the OP wasn’t.

​@@juanitajones6900it's literally what happens in the books

@@jostockton. But the novels aren't finished. Don't forget that Seasons 7 and 8, including a good deal of Seasons 5 and 6, were not based - loosely or otherwise - by those novels already published.

​@@juanitajones6900 In the books, Daenerys would probably choose fire and blood. She's on the way there, if not already on the destination. She's currently experiencing diarrhea and is probably so mad at everything.

Exactly, and it's incredibly frustrating that the show basically nerfed the biggest political drama of the entire series just because they wanted everyone to be super shocked that a character who spent 7 seasons talking about burning cities to the ground actually burnt a city to the ground.

@@HillsAliveYT Yeah and even the whole Danny going mad thing... wasn't done right. Because it took years for The Mad King to lose it. And Danny losted in one single episode. Like, happened over night.

They probably didn't have the time to do it. After all, time is money. Yeah, I am sarcastic here. 😅

@@arianeboutin6295 No. I think it was just lazzyness.

Yeah, but If this show was logical the wildlings/probably alot of notherners to would have forced Jon to behead her for treason for keeping the Knights of Vale secret for not reason.

It was definitely out of character and made no sense.

@@HillsAliveYT Right? This girl has learned when to not state her opinion and when to weaponize it in her first story arc. Why would she unlearn it now?

@@jaydenjezowski4339 Exactly, it's a political liability, and it would have been especially useful to play her cards close to the vest given that Dany is completely unfamiliar with the nuances of political maneuvering, especially when it comes to the political situation in Westeros.

Actually I thought she did just the right thing. Santa let Danny know that will she was going to cooperate because that was required of her that she was never going to make it easy. So she would cooperate just enough to survive and then overtime make herself more and more inconvenient so that the north would be more and more inconvenient to deal with. If the kind of plan that goes entirely in line with all the things she learned in King's Landing. Tyrells 101

@@devorahacts Sure, whatever you need to tell yourself. But you can’t all Sansa clever if she’s going to do dumb stuff like that. And sadly the writers did.

Yeah that's something that always irked me as well, I think that Sansa's reaction is understandable but also uncharacteristic given that she has spent her entire story having to play things extremely subtly without expressing her inner thoughts and emotions. Like, the notion that the most powerful person on the planet would show up at Sansa's house with the largest army in the world and Sansa would be super aggro towards her is bizarre, and it would have been far more interesting to see Sansa and Dany "play the game" with each other the way they normally would with everyone else.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Finally Braavos will have its revenge LOL

Not to be a Crazy Dany Stan but How are those three things worse then the average actions of a character in the universe? Ned Stark chopped off the Head of a scared teen running from Ice zombies in episode 1, tyrion used wildfire in the battle of season 2 and many other examples

@@tibitibi9417 I think the points are meant to be looked at from Sansa's PoV; Sansa wouldn't have seen all the good that Dany did like we have, and when our loved ones are involved we tend to be far more critical of someone that might hurt them- especially an abuse victim like Sansa who may already be fearing the worst. Only hearing about those points from an _outside_ view _would_ look concerning (That's just my guess on their comment, at least XD)

@@tibitibi9417 Ned taught Bran that a man must face the consequences of his actions. Most guys who took on the black were criminals, so they could not desert their post. But the man was a deserter, and it was his (Ned's) duty as the warden of the North to mete out the punishment, which is beheading. He said to Bran to strike once, and to strike true. Ned beheading the lad might be seen as excessive or even cruel, but I personally think that he only did his duty as the warden, and he didn't have to like it, he just had to do it.

I mean, realistically they probably should have done like 12 seasons, but the fact that the battle against the dead and burning of King's Landing happened in 6 episodes when those would normally be story arcs that took at least an entire season is bonkers.

You are so right the showrunners rushed the last two seasons to me and you are right about sansa

People who liked Sansa prolly also still liked Arya. People who liked Dany prolly still liked Missandei and the Queen of Thorns. The Sansa vs Dany made it hard for fanboys/fangirls to not judge the other more harshly. Has nothing to do with sex; but in picking overall factions. That tends to happen when the protagonists start clashing with each other directly.

I agree - I respect Sansa's character for going through so much growth. Her season 1 characterization was awful.

​@@stephenjenkins7971 I also agree that it's more a faction thing. It's always Sansa vs Dany, Sansa vs Arya, Cersei vs Margaery, I just feel like the male characters don't polarize as much though. Who would one pit Jon against? The Night King? Not much choice. Maybe Tyrion vs. Jaime (which is an extension of Dany vs. Cersei although the brothers don't clash as much)) It's especially obvious when you look at the fans of House of the Dragon. Rhaenyra vs. Alicent is often synoymous with The Blacks vs The Greens (for those who don't know: these two are the two factions that fought in the Dance of the Dragons)

@@Bwans_Art Jon doesn't have much of a comparison barring Dany. Tyrion vs Tywin, Tyrion vs Jaime, Jaime vs Robb, etc has vehemence too. Though it should be noted that the characters you mentioned are typically viewpoint characters with a lot of chapters behind them.

Same. You worded it perfectly.

Yeah, I think that there are many valid criticisms of GoT and Dany's trajectory in particular, however I actually think it being "out of character" isn't one of them. Yes, the scale of destruction in King's Landing was intense, but it isn't exactly unheard of for Dany to A. presume that anyone who doesn't want to follow her is evil and B. for her to set those "evil" people on fire without deliberating on it for very long. Dany deserved better in the sense that there are a thousand layers to her character that are leading towards a disastrous conquest, and frankly I think those layers make her a far more interesting character than the straightforward heroine GoT mostly presented her as, but honestly even within GoT it wasn't particularly out of character in my eyes.

@@HillsAliveYT I don't think most people are bothered by the outcome only the BUILD UP to that outcome

Yeah, it’s very clear from the get-go that Martin always planned on Dany burning down Kings Landing and taking over Westeros through blood and fire (the way she conquered every other city in the story). The issue was that the last few seasons of the show were so rushed and shallow that it just comes across as “Dany went crazy” rather than “this was inevitable.”

I guess it might depend on which corner of the fandom you occupy, but you'd be shocked how many people have messaged me and still basically been in complete denial that Dany burning King's Landing was even a possible ending in the books.

@@HillsAliveYT She didn't start murdering everyone until the surrender. There's no way to justify that.

Yeah, I assume that whatever happens in the books has to be different in a major way because there is no way in which that whole scenario makes sense.

In the books there is still the matter with Robb Stark's will: He named Jon his successor and disinherits Sansa for marrying Tyrion. So maybe Jon will end up as King in the North in Asoiaf as well, but for sure with more political intrigue and through different means.

LOL not to be that hyper-specific nerd on main, but if we assume that Robb's will does somehow legitimize Jon (and I'm always suss about situations like this where GRRM intentionally avoids directly stating that Jon is now the first in line), that doesn't necessarily mean that Sansa is disinherited, it can very likely just mean that Jon is now ahead of her in line. If Jon is now the heir to Winterfell, I suspect that this is what's going on, both because disinheriting someone is a much bigger deal than legitimizing an acknowledged elder son of Ned Stark, and because if Sansa shows up in Winterfell sans Tyrion and with a pretty solid claim to Winterfell herself then it's a bigger political mess to untangle.

@@HillsAliveYT Oh I totally agree that it's not the easy solution some would like. I just meant that it does give Jon a better standing, especially in a patriarchal society. And everyone just goes on and on how much Jon resembles Ned, so the northmen longing for Ned 2.0 could be possible. A written permission could help bolster this view

Oh yeah I agree, it totes does. And I know it was obviously the best choice in a bad situation at the time, but it's lowkey hilarious that Robb likely legitimized Jon in order to protect Winterfell from Lannister control, but Sansa is going to show up in Winterfell with an unconsummated, annul-able marriage and a bunch of Valemen who are expecting to reap the benefits of her claim, meaning that Robb's will probably created an even bigger clusterfuck of a succession crisis than they were facing in the first place with Sansa's forced marriage.

She was vilified because she was a complete BITCH to Jon.. especially in the books, she was never able to accept or even be cordial to Jon and was petty enough to even wish death upon him. She was jealous that he as a bastard looked more like a stark than her kids did (especially Sansa and Rob) as he had all the stark features. She treated him like crap and this basically lead to Jon being miserable and taking the black.

Probs is in the show, Jon didn’t really usurp shit…like he didn’t considering they thought he was Ned’s legit bastard son which mean has a legit claim in their eyes and the North later unanimously agreed he be their leader.

First he didn't ursurp. Mormont declared/proposed him as king and the other houses confirmed it. With Sansa sitting there.

And if you want to get deep with it, in the books it’s still up in air if he’s even a bastard and not actually Ned’s first born son….. so there’s that

@Day she didnt abused him. but sure, keep pushing that narrative maybe it makes it true

Same

I don't think Sansa ever saw Dany as anything different than Joffrey.

I think people don't like Cat because almost every political decision she made led to the downfall of her family. But it all began with Ned and his poor decisions, to be fair.

sansa was honestly the most realistic normal character in the entire show and ppl dislike her for it which I never understood

I think both their characterization and plot lines in the tv show were so much weaker than what they are in the books. Particularly Sansa's. She becomes so much more interesting as she develops in the story and it just felt forced in the show.

Cat is a decent, but flawed, person. Sansa is totally underrated, if you don't count the absolute nonsense of the writing of the later GoT seasons. Saving Ser Dontos was awesome, and she was strong when she (as a child, basically) was able to comfort the women during the battle of the Blackwater. A perfect foil to Cersei's degeneracy and selfishness.

This right here!!!!!

Thanks! And yeah, I know it's obviously unpopular to see them both as more complex and morally gray characters rather than Sansa = evil and Daenerys = messiah of the world, but I also find it weird that A. people still see them in such black and white terms and B. that they're so steadfast in who is the bad guy and good guy in this scenario. I also think it's lowkey hilarious that GRRM borderline obsessively subverts every fantasy trope that he can and yet so many viewers and readers are completely stuck on the idea that the characters perfectly fit into their character archetypes without ever deviating from that standard.

I love how you pointed Sansa’s story arch develops her ability to galvanise people to work together and her diplomacy. She’s never had hard power only soft and to be honest I don’t by the “Sansa is the new Littlefinger”. Neither is she the new Cersei. You can still learn from bad people, you learn how not to use your influence or charisma or strength for selfish purposes. The “If I’m ever Queen, I’ll make them love me” conversation with Cersei and Sansa in the books illustrates Sansa take on learning from this types of mentors.

I’m an absolute jerk to even ask this as it’s obvious you put a ton of thought and work into each of your videos but someday it might be cool to do a comparison of leadership styles and philosophy of power between the three Queens Sansa, Cersei and Dany. No pressure though. Keep doing the topics that inspire you to put out this great content!

Yeah, I know that everything is up to interpretation, but I don't get the Cersei/Littlefinger comparisons either. Like, even if you were to assume that Sansa enjoys hurting people (which it seems clear to me she does not), like... she's gonna kill Littlefinger? She's going to see Cersei lose everything she cares about and then die? She'd have to both be cruel and ridiculously stupid to mimic the behaviors of people whose behaviors literally got them killed.

And thanks! You're not a jerk for asking at all, as evidenced by my nonexistent posting schedule, I pretty much write about whatever inspires me when it inspires me. And I almost certainly will do something like that at some point, I love all of the whole world of ice and fire but I find the female characters particularly compelling and mentally inspiring.

Yeah, she wasn't an instant favorite for me but she definitely became my favorite. Honestly, as someone with terrible luck, I actually find her hilariously relatable in the sense that in my wildest fantasies obviously I'd be the super cool warrior or have dragons or superpowers or something, but if I were actually transported to some magical world I'd probably be just like Sansa, like I meet all of the assholes and my magical pet would die and everything that can go wrong for me would go wrong.

A whiny bitch that stand out more when compared to her family.

Loved her from the start, a good balance to the wilder Arya, I was very much the princess type when I was younger, so I tried hard to become "refined" but it did make it rather difficult to relate to others until I was older. Now I'm still graceful when I'm not falling on my face as a complete klutz.

I think a primary reason as to why this is so is because she's not a wish fulfillment sort of character. If anything, she is more like them than they care to admit and they hate it.

Maybe because she literally caused her own father's death?

While the flesh monger Littlepenis, apologies, Little finger thought he was impressing and grooming Sansa with his own Laws of Power, he actually did nothing but teach her. After the Master of Schemes killed Sansa's aunt by shoving her the door in the floor, Sansa showed what she learned; using tears to convince the Small Council of the Vale Littlefinger did nothing wrong and he only meant to protect Sansa from her mother's deranged and delusional sister. Long story short, Sansa mastered her most powerful weapon: her mind. And Sansa never showed what she knew. The trial of Littlefinger served three purposes: 1. Exonerate Ned Stark of any and all acts of treason. 2. Expose Littlefinger as a power hungry manipu later willing to use anyone to further his agenda and kill them once their purpose has been served. 3. Execute Littlefinger and set Knights of the Vale fighting for the living. The Tully slogan "Family, Duty and Honor" was well served.

Did Sansa betray Jon's trust by telling Tyrion Jon's true lineage? Yes, but her betrayal was for the greater good of the North. "We know no king but the King In The North Whose Name Is Stark." The North would never submit to a foreign ruler. Death Before Dishonor. The North named Jon Snow "King Of The North". Did Jon Snow betray The North by surrendering his crown to Daenerys Targaryen to secure Dany's aid against the Night King? Yes, he did. At Dragon

In the caves on Dragon- stone Dany told Jon she would fight against Night King only if Jon bent the knee. When Dany saw Jon's wounds, Dany gave her word she and Jon would fight the Night King together. HOWEVER, DANY DID NOT INCEST, INSIST JON BEND THE KNEE. Jon didn't have to surrender his kingship to Dany.

Using House Tully's motto: It's the Family's(Stark) Duty (responsibility) and Honor (never betray Family and Duty) to protect the North always against any and all enemies.

Sansa knew Tyrion would tell someone about Jon's parentage causing dissent between Dany and her inner circle. That's a Cersei move worked to perfection.

Right well I agree that she wasn't an irrational bitch whatsoever, but I think the show painted her that way and it seems to have generally worked given how many viewers seem to think that Sansa was the asshole in the whole Sansa vs. Dany scenario. Her reasons for not wanting Dany to be queen were 100% correct, but the fact that the show had her be the only major dissenter and had a lot of other characters like Tyrion and Jon act like she was being a pain in the ass about it really unfairly positioned her in a bad light. To be clear, what I meant was that the show portrayed Sansa's behavior in a way that made it seem like she was being an irrational bitch, and I completely disagree with that portrayal and think it was extremely shitty way to use her character as a scapegoat rather than acknowledging that perhaps invading and conquering isn't actually what heroes do.

I dislike Sansa with intensity but this is fair.

I dont think Daenerys is a power hungry conqueror, a conqueror yes power hungry no. Sansa wants to have her home back and Dany the throne, both of these things make because its supposed to be their. When Stannis say million of times that he's the heif of the iron throne everyone Acclaim him, when the Stark want their home back everyone Acclaaimed them. Why is It when Daenerys want to get the throne it's a bad thing? She's doing what everyone is doing. Do You remember tue deal was that she helped them in the knight king battle and they supported her for the ascend on the throne well they didnt even do It. They used her and let her sacrifice her army while not even saying a thank you.

Daenerys saw the Severn kingdoms as hers. By the end of the series Sansa was queen in the north therefore it was hers. What would happen if northern houses revolted and plotted a rebellion against Sansa? Would she be considered a conqueror or tyrant by not letting certain houses have independence? Before Aegon the conqueror and his dragons this happened all the time. Heck look at the Boltons in the main story. The show depicts Sansa as jealous. She trusted JAMIE LANNISTER more than Daenerys. The man that is basically responsible for her dad, mother, dire wolf and brothers deaths. Daenerys did nothing aside from aid the north with two dragons, dragon glass, unsullied soldiers and a horde of Dothraki. Her farther killed her grandfather years before she was even born. That was the only reason we were given for the hate Sansa had. Yet she never once blinked at Tyrion or Jamie being around. The last time dragons came north nobody was burned or died. The Targaryen queen Alysanne Targaryen rode her dragon Silverwing to the wall, made marriage pacts, helped with the costs to rebuild certain areas on the wall, extended land ect. It seriously comes down to stupidity.

@@iside2373 That’s what I’m trying to say. Sansa is “power hungry” to a degree. I’m sure not every house wants Sansa as a queen by the end of the story. They probably view her as tyrannical too

Thanks! LOL and I think if someone tried to draw a map connecting all of the characters in ASOIAF who are foils to one another it would look like a spider web, but the inherent conflict between Dany and Sansa is definitely something I'm looking forward to the most if/when the next books come out.

Sansa hated her from day one. I think it's because of Cerce ( if I spelled that correctly). She had major trauma from her family and projected to Daenerys. Because Sansa hated without even meeting her. Eventually it became a reason because the goals of northern people and Danny was not the same.

Or she just disliked her because she was a conqueror? Most people aren't super hyped when their countries are invaded.

Oh my god, lord beer me the strength it takes to not tear my hair out when Sansa essentially tells the Hound "yeah, if it weren't for all of those people who manipulated, abused, and raped me, I wouldn't have learned". Every time I think about that conversation my head feels like it's about to explode.

@@HillsAliveYT Yes! Especially because Sansa showed an interest in politics from a young age and had all the adults in Kings Landing not been awful and Cersei mentored her on how to be a queen like she was supposed to (I mean she kind of did but Sansa was a POW at that point) she would’ve learned the ins and outs of ruling perfectly well.

Jon did a complete disservice to Dany by lying. This is the only reason their acceptance of her was completely nonexistent. He pretty much tells them, she will only help us if we bend the knee. She's a great Queen, you just don't know her...yet, she'll let us all die unless we submit to her... If he were honest they would have been cold, that much is certain but the blatant disrespect may have been shelved because they would at least know the King they chose, chose Daenerys. Not that he was forced into submission.

He’s not very interesting though. Melisandre is a more fascinating character study because she does horrifying things for seemingly altruistic reasons (to save humanity from the long night)

Yeah they made her as subtle as as sledgehammer in the final season but I expect in ASOIAF it will be much more interesting. And honestly at least in fairness to GoT, it is considerably easier to create a character who is a very low-key power player when you can literally explain to the audience what's happening in their minds without them having to put their cards out on the table in a remotely overt way.

@@HillsAliveYT can I ask what your opinions are on house of the dragon 🤔

@@lola-gs8cd At this point I'm here for it, the previews that I've seen look interesting and although this may be more based on my hope than actual reality, I get the vibe that the show might present the Targaryens in a way that is more in line with the way that I see them, i.e. a bunch of self-obsessed weirdos with way too much literal firepower who each seem to think that they're the most important person who ever lived. To be honest, of all of the speculated possible pilots for a GoT spinoff, HotD was my least favorite, but even with that said I'm extremely excited for it and hope it does well.

@@HillsAliveYT yeah the moment they make rhaenyra the hero I'm out. I can understand that in the beginning she's good but it doesn't take her long to turn. I actually have my greatest doubts about the ending of the show. Because it's basically about the targaryens but ends with the starks fixing shit.

@@lola-gs8cd Yeah agreed, and I'm hoping that they will actually present a somewhat more balance perspective on the Dance in general. I don't hate Rhaenyra either, and I am definitely biased towards Alicent because I love the Hightowers and consistently eye-roll at the Targs, but I feel like it's impossible to let the situation play out without acknowledging that, while the rules of Westeros suck, Rhaenyra/Viserys/Daemon/etc. decided that they wanted to break those rules for no apparent reason just because. They didn't change the rules of succession, they just decided to break them in this particular instance, which would ergo mean that Alicent's sons would always be a threat to Rhaenyra, putting Alicent and her family into the literal "you win or you die" scenario even though she made moves to avoid it. That's not to say that both sides aren't power-hungry politicians who are out for themselves, but it just annoys me that Alicent actually DID try to come up with reasonable solutions and Rhaenyra and Viserys were just like LOL nah.

Oh hell yeah I'll be covering HotD!

Thanks!

Yes I concur, I feel like the show tried to frame Sansa as just being petty and jealous rather than, you know, acting on behalf of both herself and her country who had all already collectively decided that they didn't want to bend the knee to the Iron Throne no matter what.

You are missing the parallel with Ned’s arc. Sansa understood if she told she might die. If it were to happen then the realm would know why whereas people thought Ned was a traitor but didn’t understand that Joffrey was the real traitor.

Have you tried speeding up your playback speed? Honestly it's hard for me to enunciate properly and to talk for this long really quickly, but I watch KZfaq videos on 1.75 speed and it's a freaking godsend. FYI if you're unfamiliar, if you click on the little setting wheel in your YT window you'll see a menu for playback speed and you can make videos a lot faster.

Men pit men against each other. It's unrealistic for women not to be pit against each other as well. Get over your sexism before you cry about something that absurd. Do you also know there are hateful and vile women in the world too?

Right because women dont fight in real life... Women fight as much as men without men having to do anything about it, dumbass.

Oh I 1000% do not believe in the "mad Queen Dany" idea either, I don't think she's remotely unhinged or insane and I don't think she's going to become that as the story goes on. I simply think that she believes that her importance and birthright trumps everything else, and she's not going to suddenly change her mind if/when the people of Westeros reject her in favor of someone else.

@@HillsAliveYT fair, as rhenerya said in the HOTD trailer, "targaryens are closer to gods than men". Their self importance is definitely ballooned lol

Especially with her empathy and little bird nickname i could imagine her nursing a bird, having a beautiful songbird in a cage, or something similar, warging into it possibly releasing it after realising she doesn’t want to keep it caged like she was

Thanks so much!

I sort of felt the same way. I always loved Arya. She was one of my favorite characters until Season 5... when she arrived at Braavos. I felt like her story really lost its heart and momentum. Her character development seemed to focus almost exclusively on her training and her quest for vengeance. The Arya we got to know in the previous seasons was fading away. I think that's probably why the writers decided to make her the one who kills the Night King. They probably thought it would justify all the senseless time and effort they put into Arya's training story.

@@NovaLena22 And if you watch it again, what training did she really receive? She learned how to take a beating, and learned how to use a spear a little bit. But certainly did not learn to become an assassin. If you really watch again you will realize arya didn’t get much training at all for anything. And I have no problem with aria killing in the night King, but she should have had a connection prior to killing him. And don’t build up Jon snow to make us think he should be the one.

I think Sansa was favored more than Jon because yes, she's a Stark, but also because they chose her. Jon was chosen first, given the KITN and abdicated without informing anyone. Jon being male was the catalyst for his crowning, though the idea to retake Winterfell was Sansa's idea, and late or not, the knights of the Vale assisted because of HER. Sansa proved her worthiness by sticking with them despite Jon's constant bone headed behavior. She ran Winterfell in Jon's absence and did a pretty decent job. The North is free because she continued to ask for it, not Jon. If not Jon, who else? Who else has done more than her in terms of sticking up for them?

It was "I WILL DO IT MYSELF IF I HAVE TO", never "just do it Jon, ugh". Watch the damn show again, sir. Most importantly, he abandoned his battle strategies and ran straight into the Bolton trap leading his army to death until Sansa saved his arse. The slaughter of Jon's army was on Jon, a man who is supposedly a better military strategist, not on Sansa. She reached out to the Valemen as a last resort to ensure she and her brother SURVIVE. Thinking that Sansa was hiding the Valemen in her little pocket away from Jon and his army...it's not at all true. She didn't trust Littlefinger after the Bolton saga and did not want to be in his debt. She went begging every house with Jon for their rightful cause when all Jon wanted was to wander in the streets after his resurrection. She asked Jon the dumb dragon to fuking wait till they have enough men BECAUSE she didn't even consider taking help from Littlefinger at that point. She warned Jon again and again against Ramsey about his sadistic methods of dealing with enemies but Jon being Jon, didn't learn his lessons about people and behaviors even after getting stabbed to death and dismissed her statements. Let's suppose she ended up telling Jon about the possibility of relying on the Vale, despite the sleaziness of Littlefinger, what outcome do you expect? Jon would have ran his mouth most probably in his meeting with Ramsey and made the enemy aware so that Ramsey could develop some strategy to deal with the Valemen as well, confirming the death of the Starks. Somehow people would still manage to twist the blame on Sansa for this. Besides, Torren Stark was wise enough to choose to bend the knee and save his people but after Robb's death and the mess created by Lannisters, it's so natural for the northerners to be wary of another southern ruler who had no damn connection to the north in any way. AND then Jon did become a simp for Dany after all.... both were horny for each other because of their Targaryen genes. The northerners HAD huge problems with someone other than Starks ruling them. They wouldn't have started the grand northern conspiracy to put a Stark on the throne otherwise. "The North remembers", "We know no king but the king in the North whose name is Stark". A smart group would pick a leader whose interests align with them regardless of the gender. Jon had the choice on that ship to keep his crown and still have Dany fight beside him, but he surrendered his crown to the mad queen.

@@snehalpatil5166 If it was meant as "I will do it myself if I have to" it wouldve been even more stupid because Sansa literally cannot. She is lady Bolton of Winterfel. She has no claim and no followers, except for Brianne that is really on a mission from Caitlyn. Even with the giants, the wildlings, the watchmen and all the support Jon and Sansa manages to scavenge in the North (in some cases through the help of Davos) and the Vale from Sansa were barely enough to win against Ramsay, and the majority of their army is literally the free folk following Jon. Sansa on her own has 0 chances and she would most likely just be captured and sent back to Winterfel like the Umbers delievered her brother to Ramsay. Thats why she whinnes at Jon to do it. Her not trusting Littlefinger would be more reason to tell Jon of her dealings with him. and it has nothing to do with her not wanting to be in his debt, Littlefinger offers "whatever she wants" to her as to begin repaying HIS debt to her because he sent her to Ramsey. If she didnt trust Littlefinger to help its even more reason to tell Jon because she obviouly told him about when and where the battle will happen and some of the battle plans when the knights of the Vale made it to Winterfel in time for the battle. I know last seasons act like they have teleports now, but gathering and traveling an army takes a lot of time and resources, which mean she also gave Littlefinger not only a chance to surprise help the Boltons if he wanted to because she doesnt tell Jon they have been alerted. If she told him they might have options to send scouts, spies to gather info and make different battle plans. As far as Jon blabbering out stuff to Ramsay is just really character assassination of Jon, the man spent months gathering intel and pretending hes a watch deserter in the wildling camp where one wrong move wouldve had him dead. Lets not pretend Jon is a rambling, bumbling idiot now to justify Sansas bad decisions. She either trusts that she has control over Littlefingers alliance completely and is just being stupid for the sake of the plot by not telling Jon to include them in their battle plans, or she doesnt trust his alligence and puts everyone at further risk by not telling Jon, because he can now surprise show up to help Ramsey in the battle. Yes, Jon fall into his trap trying to save his brother, like Sansa warned him. And when Jon asked Sansa what should he do then, she in her infinite wisdom says "I dont know". She keeps rambling about how she knows Ramsey better than anyone yet is incapable of make use of her knowledge in any way. shes just constantly like idk you figure it out jon jesus. And while we on the topic of Ramsey, its kinda funny Sansa act so indignant to Littlefinger about her accepting to be married to the psycho, as if she didnt grow up in the North, where Boltons and Starks were always at each others throats, the Boltons, the well known psychos of the North with a flayed man as their banner and "our blades are sharp" as their house words. What did she think? They were just very clumsy barbers? The smartest person in the show kinda forgot about the northern psychos she grew up with. And I get it, this is bad writing, and it comes down to the show runners having no idea how to handle the plots. And none of this wouldve been a real problem if the show would stop telling us how smart Sansa is now. Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger getting dumber is annoying but at the very least the show doesnt keep telling us how smart they are every episode so its a bit easier to swallow. If anything the show keeps telling us how they "used to be smart". Also on the King in the North, what Stark? The only Stark alive is Bran, whos decided hes not a Stark. Jon isnt a Stark, neither is Sansa. The biggest houses and many others of the North sided against the Starks due to Robs multiple mistakes in handling the war with the Lannisters. And given by how difficult it was for Jon and Sansa to get enough of people to fight for them in the North (from what I remember only 3 houses) it would seem they didnt have that HUGE of a problem with different rulers when it comes down to it. At the ending part Bran is technically the only Stark by the rules of the region, why would they want to separate the North as a kingdom now that the only Stark male heir left is the literal ruler of the 7 kingdoms? Just as Torren bent the knee in front of dragons, it is smart of Jon to bend the knee to Dany and her dragons and armies, especially when they need them in the battle against the freaking undead army. Jon simping over Dany is completely irrelevant. He could be the biggest simp in the universe for her and it still wouldnt matter to the situation. Which makes Sansa look stupid when she whines about it. They cant fight the undead without her and survive. They cant fight 3 dragons and her army and survive. Dany being a decent human being is a bonus. Jon simping over her doesnt change that. Not to mention Sansa whinning at Dany and her army is extra stupid because she doesnt know anything about her or even tries to figure her out so she can then be like yo, I dont know about her because this, this and this. Shes just like eh I dont like her dress I guess and my brother is humping her so I dont like her, im so smart I know. Even during the battle with the white walkers, Sansa sits in the crypts bitching about Dany, the woman that is out there fighting to keep Sansa and her family home and land alive and protected from the undead. She literally wouldve been dead without her. All of it overrun by the undead. If she was actually smart she would see this as an opportunity, at the very least you can count on the white walkers weakening Danys army, maybe she will even get killed during the battle. Forging good relations and an alliance might give her a lot more power and negotiating room after the long night. But nah, lets just antagonize the dragon lady as soon as she gets here for funzies. And again, none of this wouldve been a huge problem if the show doesnt try to shove the "Sansa is the smartest person ever" down our throats every episode. If they kept her smart but sometimes her emotions and mouth is faster than her brain but is good at wiggling out of it, character that she was since season 1, it wouldve worked. But in the last seasons they decide Sansa is just brilliant so when she says dumb reckless things we just double down instead of her using her wit to manuver out of putting her foot in her mouth. Sansa as depicted in the show was smarter as a child while surviving being a Lannister hostage than she is in the last seasons.

Exactly, this is literally the heart of the conflict that has existed around the Iron Throne since it was created and is truly the foundation of all political conflict in the current storyline. That's an awesome fic quote too!

I would love to know this fanfic.

I will! I already have quite a few half-baked Dany ideas banging around in my brain!

Also i never saw any issue that the northerners would have with Sansa being a woman Like 1) one of the lords is an 8 year old girl 2) sansas whole story is a good point of northern strength, she went thru all of that but didnt give up and look at her now

What I actually like about Sansa is that she takes the damsel in distress archetype but she becomes a subject instead of an object within the plot, as most fairy tales with distressed damsels don't actually explore the internal life of said damsel. And I like that GRRM actually makes it clear that being in that position is oftentimes boring and terrible.

LOL yeah I mean that's fair, maybe a better way of framing it would be that the show spent it's tail end focusing on a lot of boring, confusing, or pointless shit when Sansa vs. Dany had a fantastic foundation and serious relevance to the plot and they gave Sansa and Dany like 2 vaguely mean girls scenes and nothing else.

@@HillsAliveYT [they gave Sansa and Dany like 2 vaguely mean girls scenes and nothing else.] Outside of episode 1 ( Sansa would not act that way )where the director told Sophie to play the part as this is your( Stark ) house , they gave them more than 2 good scenes, everything needed to know about Sansa could be told from S1, S2-9, S4, S6, S7, and S8, especially 8-2 where Sansa asked Dany important questions one most notably...What's your plans for the future ? Dany, just as been shown previously never has a plan pass the IT. Dany also made the mistake in saying "Jon's war;" she and Stannis both felt the north should bow to them, Stannis actually came though as it was a threat to the realm , Dany came expecting the north to except her just for coming even though Jon warned her. Dany totally pushed aside the history from 30ish years before, something Sansa and the north did not. We again are shown with Theon's return how Dany is becoming more isolated....Theon enters halts and slight hesitance kneels and explains why his sister isn't there, when asked why he came north, he looks at Sansa, Dany's face change and he said it out loud " I came to fight for Winterfell Lady Sansa if you'll have me " everything Dany's been looking for is in that scene and the scene prior. The showrunners did rush the show, but they did not relegate Sansa and Dany to two woman cat fighting.

It could go either way lol. 💚

Please no.

It was a mistake to make a tv show out of a book franchise that was not yet completed.

Correct. Keep in mind Danaerys was trying to use the right of conquest to take it back but as we all saw that failed miserably.

Unless by right of conquest. Like Aegon did in the first place.

@@jjh2456 When everyone was ooc. It'd be interesting to see that play out in the books and how differently George would handle it. I can't see his Tyrion doing everything to help Cersei, or making Dany lose all her allies and living to tell the tale, as it were.

Well GRRM has said that his interest lies in the conflict within the human heart, and I think that there is definitely a part of Dany who just wants to be a normal girl with a safe home, but there is another part of her that is a violent and egotistical conqueror. I also think that she does learn, but ironically in my reading of her, she's always learning the wrong lessons. I think of all of the characters who battle with inner conflict, hers is some of the most intense, and GRRM puts that on display by having her constantly contradict herself (a great example being that she claims she wants to end slavery but claims inherent superiority because she's a part of some "master race" that was built on the backs of slavery"). But one of the beauties of ASOIAF is that every single person can read a character and story in an entirely different way!

@@HillsAliveYT Well that's of course what makes asoiaf so intriguing is the conflict within the human heart, while I do think she does learn, its both wrong and right lessons she is learning but we'll just have to see what she decides to do with that experience later on, but yea I guess I've always just read her differently although I do understand your perspective! I'm really looking forward to seeing where he takes her character in Winds.