Let's remember too that in the book Dany starts out as a thirteen year old girl. Her harsh treatment of Mirri is NOT justifiable, but I'm not sure it's meant to be. This is the desperate action of a trauamatized, terrified and greiving child.

the problem I have with Dany burning the Tarlys is the framing: She's framed as being morally wrong or even brutal for executing them. Yet the problem is, the world of GoT is just that; brutal. I think Lindsay Ellis said it best as the showrunners hold Dany to an unfair and hypocritical standard given she executes traitors (remember, the Tarlys were bannerman to House Tyrell, whom they betrayed) same as other characters like Jon or Sansa or even Ned Stark. She just uses a dragon to execute people instead of a big-ass sword.

When Dany burns the Tarlys, it could have helped to have someone from across the Narrow Sea with her to counter Tyrion’s horror. If they just see “Khaleesi’s justice” where Tyrion sees the Mad King, it could have setup an interesting narrative of conflicting perspectives borne of cultural differences.

The basic problem devolved down to "foreshadowing is NOT character development!"

Something that always bugs me is when she goes back to the dosh kaleen, they call her stupid for believing the prophecy, like what??? Aren't the dosh kaleen like a super important religious figure? Shouldn't that make them question like their whole worldview? Or at least make them question what went wrong?

I really don't get how Dany's violent acts in that kind of situations could be seen as "mad" or "criminal". Dany's father was considered mad because he killed without a reason, out of fear and paranoia. The same goes with Joeffrey, who enjoyed the violence and refused to follow any political strategy. But killing a traitor, getting revenge, showing your power with violence is a valid option in GoT world, it is often the only way to face some situation and keep your life and power. It's not logical to judge a character from that world with our standards.

For me the overall issue I have with show Daenerys vs book Dany is her loss of empathy. Even though her chapters are fewer in the books it always struck me how she seemed to be genuinely kind despite all that she had gone through. She wasn't always nice or patient but her POV sticks out to me as someone who is trying to be calculated about making choices that benefit the majority, vs show Dany who is more often short tempered girl boss with great posture. To be clear I enjoy both, but to me show Dany is not at all the same character as book Dany. Also it's a tiny thing, but I wish they'd been brave enough to leave her bald after the ritual! 😆

I always had a hard time with the Tarly deaths being her “mad queen prequel” because like… what about Blackwater? Not the fire part, but the part where captives that didn’t kneel to Joffrey were killed. But her killing the Tarlys was too far. It’s more directly spoken about in the books but still, people get executed all the time, especially war criminals ie the enemies. It does have any bite in comparison to Miri who gave a much better grey area to the situation.

Jon and Dany’s romance fell incredibly flat. Compared to Jon & Ygritte and Dany only marrying men for advantage, or Dario who was cunning it made 0 sense. They were cordial and made deals that would benefit them politically but somehow fell in love? They weren’t compatible and they seemed like they didn’t even really seem to respect one another, much less trust one another. Dany going to the North wasn’t just for Jon she needed the North to back her claim and that was the forefront throughout her stay in Winterfell. Jon wanted her dragons, and her army to defeat the others. It was an awful element to add a love story in there. Also Kit and Emilia didn’t have chemistry imo

Of all the stories in ASOIAF that suffered from having a lack of nuance in the show, Dany's is almost certainly the biggest victim, because hers is a story ABOUT nuance. She spends several books doing almost nothing except learning that sticking to absolutes doesn't work in a complex world, so compromising on principles is the only way to survive and thrive as a ruler, as a friend, and as a person. This is essentially the same lesson as Jon (for all the obvious reasons), but he learns these lessons from others, while Dany figures out everything in her own head. Jon's development was easy to translate onto the screen; Dany spent entire POV chapters doing nothing but talk to herself. It's interesting that for all the changes the show runners made - which of course is necessary to translate the story to a new medium - they barely deviated Dany's story from the book, merely truncating it for pacing. Unlike others where they made changes in order for the CHARACTER to land where it needed to for certain story beats, they only played with the TIMING of Dany's story so that it hit Westeros when it needed to. The result was that Dany became a caricature, not a character.

The main problem is that the show completely dropped the Young Griff storyline. D&D basically gave Daenerys JonCon's plotline and his trauma with the bells, a character and overall story the show completely left out. Kings Landing will certainly burn, but it will be because of JonCon, who, apart from suffering from trauma due to what happened at the battle of the bells, also has grayscale, which is said to drive you nuts after a while, and Cersei, who has repeatedly been compared to the mad king and is obsessed with Wildfire, some of which is still hidden beneath the city when Aerys wanted to blow up KL at the end of Robert's Rebellion, so any spark can lead to a chain of events that set the caskets ablaze and blow this entire city into smithereens. All of these pieces were dropped from the show, which led to this noncencical mad Dany plotline of burning KL because she heard the ringing of the bells which set her off. Now, I do think Dany is going to burn some shit, but most of it will be set in her crusade against slavery, like Volantis, for example, which has already been set up for a potential Harrenhal 2.0 moment with the Black Wall and the Widow of the Waterfront sending her a message to come there. I think Daenerys biggest concern in Westeros will be more so the threat of the others and Euron rather than her campaign for the throne. Cersei certainly won't be much of a factor because you already have Young Griff's crew clashing with Cersei's forces. Dany isn't really much of a factor in this storyline, like she was in the show.

Dany has always been compelling and interesting to me, as someone who is trying to do good in the world and by her people (and who is 'her people' are is something that changes and expands), but who lives in a world where violence is extremely normalized, has conflicting legacies weighing on her, and of course has her own feelings and is also a young teenager learning on the fly. And the show's treatment of Dany, not giving her interiority and sort of just letting her be carried around by the actions and opinions of those around her, plus the greater emphasis on her "savior-ness" rather than getting in on her doubts and failures and learning, is part of what kept me from getting into the show (which turned out to be a good call in hindsight)

We should’ve known what was going on once the show decided not to include Vaes Tolorro and made Dany go to Qarth and threaten them to let her in instead of her being invited like in the books.

The last season was already so bad but Dany taking Kings Landing with very few casualties before going “Mad Queen” mode was really the icing on the cake. Like the whole point of her doing all this extra shit instead of attacking KL was to win the war without the death of civilians and she took the city in like 10 mins which would’ve saved so many more lives. I could write 10 essays on how much I hate the last 2 seasons of the show.

A little detail I recall from the show with that scene, where they talk about blood magic, when Mirri assured Dany that it wasnt her death as the cost, Mirri glanced down, as if she was looking at Dany's pregnant belly. I always considered that to be show not tell. It goes by quickly, but for me i always imagined Mirri doing the same thing in the books. Its not explicitly said but that small detail in the show says alot. It was telling that Mirri had malintent (which in her mind in justified as she wanted to end Drogos line so that no one else suffers what Mirri herself had endured by Drogo's khalasar). For me, I think Dany realised the true cost was her son, not the horse. Its one cruel and harsh lesson Dany learned about the world she lives in. Her anger was further fueled by her grief of losing her son and her Sun-And-Stars. Thats how i always saw it to be honest. I also agree with your assessment of Dany not having any agency. I love the books, its been a while since i read them. It bothered me that they took Danys agency away as she herself came up with the plot to incapacite the Second Sons and the Stormcrows (Correct me if im wrong, book readers. Its been a while for me lol) with the wine. He knew they would bicker about her deal and while Daario killed the other captains, the Unsullied and some of her freedmen fought and won. It was her idea. To the point that Jorah compared her to Rhaegar and Barristan agreed (which they rarely do in the books). Not to mention how they striped her agency and emotional intelligence in Qarth as well. In the books, shes active and trying to be more methodical but in the show, they made her throw a tantrum and threatened to burned them if they didnt give her what she wanted. For the life of me, i dont know why they did that to Dany. Shes not my favourite character any means but that was a great disservice to her. I too feel as if that the Meereense plot is vital for her character as well. Every compromise is a bond on her. She hates that shes around people she'd sooner kill but wants to be a good queen and ruler. Shes understanding that compromises means you have to overlook many things and due to her own moral compass, someone who understands what it means to be sold off as a slave (How Viserys practically sold her to Drogo for an army), she doesn't want that for anyone else. But that system is steeped deep in parts of Essos and shes yet to find a system to put into place and slowly change it from the inside. Book Dany has alot to learn and she's very much self aware. Again, the stripping of her agency in the show hurt her character more than it helped her in my opinion. She's an idealist yet, but she needs to be alot more pragmatic and the temptation to just burn everything to the ground is understandable. I love how George made that aspect of her character a devil on her shoulder that she's trying to ignore but the angel route she's taking is suffocating her more than she can stand, yet she still persists. George is brilliant. Im curious to see how her story would end in the books. I believe that she will be unfairly labeled the Mad Queen as well due to her choices when she gets back to Westeros. It doesn't help that what she did to Astapor, Yunkai and the Sacking of Meeren has already spread to Westeros. If Cersei (who definitely is the true Mad Queen but it's understandable how she got there as she's unravelling rapidly), does ascend the throne after Tommen dies (perhaps poisoning from the Sand Snakes, idk) , she will use that to her advantage to rally Westeros against the 'foreign queen.' I see Dany being very disillusioned when she arrives at Westeros. Maybe she accidentally sets off the wildfire or Cersei sets it off when Dany is near the Red Keep and blames Dany for the damage and chaos.. Either way, fantastic video as always! I'm especially happy that you mentioned the Meereenese Knot Essays. It's great stuff! Anyone who is a huge ASOIAF fan, I recommend it. A very interesting and fascinating read that gives you food for thought. 😁

Season’s 2 handling of Daenerys was a clear indication that they were not going to be faithful to her story arc. Book Daenerys and show Daenerys are two different characters. In the book Daenerys constantly questions if she’s a monster and wonders if she’s doing the right thing. In the book it’s her advisors that want her to be more violent and it’s her pushing back against the violence. Daenerys in the book is and always was, self away. Book Daenerys is a very much a mother figure, nurturing but forceful. She is a grey character. I’m still of the belief that Cersei is the Mad Queen and that it will be her and or Aegon that destroy King's Landing. Either Cersei will do it with Wildfire to stop Aegon or Cersei could accidentally set it off a chain reaction when she (if the show is to be believed) blows up the Sept and or trick Aegon into doing it. I don’t see how Daenerys could do it. She has too much ground to cover in Essos. She still has to deal with the Dothraki in the Great Grass Sea and the Dosh Khaleen in Vaes Dothrak (and if the show is to be believed) traveling with her new found khalasar back to Meereen is going to take some time, like months. Then when she does get back to Meereen she has to deal with the Meereenese knot (Victarion, The Green Grace and The Harpy’s and the whole of Slaver’s Bay, Quentyn “death”, Tyrion, Jorah, taming her dragons etc) and then after that find “a 1000 ships” to get to Westeros, which again will take months to achieve and then you have to factor in the sailing across to Westeros with that large of a fleet will again take months. Realistically, which GRRM likes to try and do in his writing, be as realistic as possible, I honestly can’t see Daenerys getting to Westeros until the 7th book and by then one would think the Long Night would have started. If so at the point I could see Jon or whoever greeting Daenerys at the ports asking her to come north and help with the Other’s. But GRRM says they’ll be a 2nd Dance of Dragons, whether or not he meant literally or figuratively is tbd.

I think D&D never truly understood who Dany was, honestly. There's a video by David Lightbringer that breaks her character down that I mostly agree with, definitely check that out if you haven't! Also THANK YOU for mentioning the whole "Targaryan genetic madness" thing. It drives me nuts when people point to that as a justification for her mad queen thing in the show. With one or two exceptions (and only because we know so little about them tbh) most of these "mad" Targaryan kings had plenty of reasons behind their behaviours. And now that George has revealed Aegon I being a dreamer is in fact canon it's heavily implied that misinterpreted prophecy is to blame for a lot of these "mad" acts too. Thinking about Aerion drinking wildfire because he *believed* it would turn him into a dragon, just as one example.

I saw the first season before reading the books, then consumed the books before season 2 came out, so I'm a bit of a weird mix of book-first and show-first experience. But I think the show's framing of Dany burning Mirri really blinded me for a bit, and it took me a while to realize that Mirri was absolutely in the right. Killing Drogo saved thousands and thousands of lives, and she says so explicitly. Mirri Maz Dur may have done more for the common folk than any other character in the books, and Dany, supposedly the champion of the commons, tortures her to death for it. Also you're being too kind to book Jorah. He is an absolute scumbag. He is an unrepentant slaver and a groomer and repeatedly tries to manipulate Dany into marrying him. Although he professes to love her, he has absolutely no respect for her attempts to be principled. He just wants her because he's super into Valyrian-looking tweens. His motivation is essentially that he thinks he's too good for Bear Island and pursues the girls who make him think of royalty. His Hightower wife and then Dany. David and Dan made the same mistake with Dany and Salsa: turning them into generic girlbosses to try to appeal to the cultural zeitgeist. When in reality Dany's story is a complicated tale about how to deal with childhood abuse, and how difficult it is not to repeat the cycles of violence that colored your childhood.

I think the showrunners were too interested in what would look "cool" or "badass" and play well with a TV audience and not interested enough in consistent characterization or satisfying pay-off for arcs. I also think that if they weren't in some way beholden to matching the main points of the show ending to GRRM's planned book ending that they wouldn't have bothered showing Dany as a villain at all. She would have been played completely straight as a heroic figures audiences should be pumping their fists for--because that's fun for audiences to watch and gets good TV ratings. At the end of the day, that was their biggest concern: their ratings, not the story's actual themes or ideas.

I love the 5th book. I know it can feel a bit of a drag, but I love it. And I think it's absolutely crucial for Dany. For Jon too, by the way. ADWD is very much important for both of them. I think there is a breaking point there. The beginning of a big turn, if you like, for both of them. By the way, re-Mirri Maz Duur. I think Dany, in the books, killed Mirri not for revenge. That was a bonus, if you like. No, she knew what she was doing when she prepared the pyre, and that was about the hatching of the Dragons. Remember, she had that dream about the Dragons, prior to this moment. The, we have this in the book: 'The godswife did not cry out as they dragged her to Khal Drogo’s pyre and staked her down amidst his treasures. Dany poured the oil over the woman’s head herself. “I thank you, Mirri Maz Duur,” she said, “for the lessons you have taught me.” “You will not hear me scream,” Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing. “I will,” Dany said, “but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life.” Mirri Maz Duur opened her mouth, but made no reply. As she stepped away, Dany saw that the contempt was gone from the maegi’s flat black eyes; in its place was something that might have been fear. Then there was nothing to be done but watch the sun and look for the first star.' And then, they see the comet: 'Jhogo spied it first. “There,” he said in a hushed voice. Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Bloodred; fire red; the dragon’s tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign.' 'The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her. She had sensed the truth of it long ago, Dany thought as she took a step closer to the conflagration, but the brazier had not been hot enough.' 'She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder. Only death can pay for life.' This was blood magic and Dany knew. She had a purpose, Dragons. Revenge had little to do with it, if anything.

I would be interested in your perspective as a psychologist: what does being the Mad Queen actually MEAN? The show treats "madness" (which is largely portrayed as senseless cruelty) as an inheritable trait. In real world terms, is the implication that the Targaryens have a genetic predisposition towards some type of mental illness? Aerys was paranoid and cruel. Is the show suggesting that Dany inherited psychopathy from him? Part of why I found season 8 to be so frustrating was this loose definition of "madness," which seemed like a very hand-wavey explanation for an extreme change in Dany's character.

There's a thing from the first book that people never mention when talking about Dany being complex: she kinda saves Mirri from rape (even though in reality she only saves her from one of the rapists), but it's also mentioned that one of Drogo's bloodriders regularly rapes Dany's own servants, and Dany doesn't think much about that. Obviously, that detail is also missing from the show.

I always felt like Sansa got what Dany was supposed to get. Sansa actually gets meaningful revenge that isn’t framed as “badass”. When Dany gets revenge it is always portrayed as something “badass” or is proceeded by fanfare from everyone around her.

DO you know what moment ruined Daenerys Targaryen for me? Dany going psychotic and unjustly murdering the innocent population of King's Landing and her death at the hands of Jon Snow. I'm glad she stood up to Khal Moro and killed him. He was so disrespectful towards her, and he threatened to have all his Dothraki warriors brutally rape her. D.B Weiss and David Benioff ruined and failed her in the final season.

what always bothered me about Danys story line, is how "easy" it was to free slaves. Especially with the Unsullied. as if being brought up as an obedient little solider from birth wouldn't mess with you head. But in the eyes of the story tellers, it's just a matter of "hey, just be a free thinking independent person from now on ok?"

5:25 Did you see that pause though, afters he says "No, Khaleesi, not your death?" To me, it appears that she looks down at Daenerys' abdomen, at Rhaego, and then she looks up and says "bring me his horse."

Mirri basically says that it was never going to work. She never blames Dany for entering the tent, she tells Dany that the death of the baby was the price to pay for Drogo's life and claims that deep down inside, Dany knew all along. That's not saying "the ritual went wrong because X" that is saying, "this is result you paid for, should have checked the fine print." And for the record, Dany did not make Mirri Maez Duur a slave, she was already a slave, Dany took her under her own protection, and the distinction is important because Dany is essentially a slave herself! She was sold to Khal Drogo and has almost no agency or choices. Drogo is relatively decent about her wishes regarding sex, but if he chose to force her on their wedding night, he could. If he wanted to let his bodyguards use her sexually, she has no choice. Everything she has is a gift from Drogo. Her power over Viserys or anyone else in the khalasar exists simply because Drogo wishes to indulge her. She is only able to protect Mirri and Ereoh because Drogo is amenable to her wishes and even her strength of will is attributed to his child inside her. That being said, among the tone-deaf changes being made on the show in season 2, was how she started acting really entitled when she reached Qarth. First there was her demand to be allowed into the city, at the head of a group of people known for terrorizing the Qartheen and trying to rob them. They were willing to make an exception for her based on her possession of dragons, but she refused to so much as lift the flaps on the cart to show that she did indeed possess dragons. Then, later, when she is trying to get support from the Spice King for her return to Westeros, she seems to think that shrieking at him and demanding ships is an appropriate method of making a request and that there is something wrong with this guy for not wagering a fortune on her magic dreams coming true. When she coopts the Unsullied, she only throws down the whip that is the symbol of her ownership of them at the end of the scene, after she led them to massacre their former owners and effect a revolution and start marching to her next destination. In the books, she throws down the whip after telling them to fight the masters and free the slaves. Basically, she gives up the symbol of ownership after she has everything she wants in the show and the Unsullied have chosen to follow her, and in the books she gives it up as part of declaring war on slavery. Even before that, there was her smug little "but we are not men" reply to Missandei quoting that all men must die. It's not like, for instance, the prophecy of the Witch King in Return of the King, who cannot be slain by man, only to end up fighting a woman and a hobbit. Is Daenerys saying she is immortal because she's a woman? The phrase is supposed to be a moment of cleverness, but the actual implication is that she doesn't think the rules apply to her. There was, I believe, no real intention of foreshadowing any downturn in Daenerys' character or heroism, just a lot of incompetently rendered scenes of alleged badassery and then when they were writing the last season, they realized it could all justify her flip to villainy. Tyrion's claims that she was bad when fighting the slavers are rather risible considering he was absent for most of her campaigns in Slaver's Bay, and then botched it when he took over Meereen in her absence, needing to be rescued by her, when his appeasement strategy blew up in his face for disregarding the advice of Dany's closest advisor (Missandei) and most loyal general (Grey Worm). Furthermore, the show completely botched the adaptation of her character arc in Meereen. In Meereen, driven by a desire to do something beneficial and productive, instead of just destroying evil, only for other evils to replace them, Daenerys stays to rule the city, rather than let new tyrants take over, as in Astapor, or for the slavers to continue their course as soon as her back is turned, as in Yunkai. Her one moment of atrocity, ordering the executions of random slavers, was in reprisal for a war crime of their own, and hers at least was perpetrated against the guilty class, rather than innocent victims she knew would hurt her enemies, as they did. She makes every effort to compromise, to end the bloodshed and wrongdoing, only for her enemies to take advantage of her good faith and neutralize her liberation movement and murder her followers and the beneficiaries of her reign, until slaves are being traded beneath the very walls of the city and she is forced to allow bloodsports with at best, very dubious consent from the participants in the city itself. As with the 163 Masters she crucified in retaliation for the slave children they similarly tourtured to death, her change of heart at the end of Dance With Dragons, that "a dragon plants no trees" and her resolution to embrace Fire & Blood going forward, is understandable and a reaction to extremely bad faith tactics by her enemies. The show cut out a lot of Danys' efforts at compromise and made her own actions look bad, especially in comparison to the spokesman of the slavers, whose father was benevolent and had opposed the child-massacre, and who was not clearly plotting against her and in league with her enemies, unlike Hizdahr, her husband in the books. Rather than a police force of loyalists and freedmen, the brass-masked men are the recidivist slaver insurgency. Her flying off on Drogo is not framed as choosing to be herself and a rejection of Meereenese culture with its baked-in slavery, just a thing that happens, possibly an escape from danger. It was all nonsense. There are plausible ways she could burn down Kings Landing in the books, without going all villain, which have been seeded at least since book 2, but which seem like they are there to confront her Targaryen heritage and what it means to be "a dragon". I find it impossible to believe that fighting for the Iron Throne will be the climax of the end of the series. I think that will come before Dany goes north, and the destruction of Kings Landing and melting of the Iron Throne (from all the wildfire her father planted in the city, for which Jaime killed him) is what will make her realize the futility of fighting over thrones, instead of saving the kingdom, and she will go north to face the Others, instead of giving fascist-coded speeches in the ruins.

There are theories that it will be Tyrion who will help bring out the violent side of her when she finally arrives in Westeros and I definitely agree. Especially with the way his character was being developed in the books. And given that the show probably swapped the order of the attack on King's Landing and the Long Night, I think it's very likely that she will sacrifice herself in order to save the world. It makes for a more satisfying arc for Dany in my opinion, but I guess we won't know until Martin finishes the series. If he ever does, of course.

I never understood why so many people took Dany's side in this situation in the TV show, especially when Mirri started talking about all the people Khal Drogo had killed in her village and would've killed in the future

I’ve noticed agency being taken away from female characters in book to show/movie adaptations. Such as true blood, sookie stackhouse, many times, is surprisingly well read and clever. She has a lot of knowledge of certain things, that surprise many around her, such as maenads, but in the show, they take this aspect away from her. This is problematic. It frames them so differently. Changes them from their depths and struggles that have shaped them. Sookie, for example, may be a blonde waitress who can read minds, and her attempt to overcompensate for this makes her seem stupid or crazy to most people, but she’s the exact opposite, a book worm, why do female characters always have to have intelligence taken away to seem less threatening, and more sympathetic? No, really

I think the ending that I always imagined for Dany was for her to die sacrificing herself. What I wanted to see was her walking that line between righteous justice and abusing her power for the most part of the show, making us wonder which way she'll sway in the end. I wanted to see her be cruel to her enemies, but still have that need to save the innocent, which motivated her for the majority of her time in the East. And at the end I wanted to see her face a choice: continue to kill her enemies to win the throne or put her life on the line for the innocent (preferably during the battle with the dead), and finally to choose the thing that, in the end, mattered to her more, which is to end suffering rather than to sit on the throne, especially since in the book she mostly yearns for home, not power. I wanted Dany to be a mystery and for her "good" side, the side that made her free the slaves to win in her final moments, thus breaking the cycle violence and abuse that made her suffer so much in the first place.

I think your observations other "The mad queen" issue are really highlighted in HotD. There are a lot of potential "mad" Targaryons in HotD, but for all of them, you can see how their temperaments, societal pressures, and/or trauma intersect to lead to those "mad" actions. Crucially, without going on a literary analysis rabbit hole - in is all clear text.

For showrunners they seem to misunderstand film language at a pretty basic level. Either keep the triumphant music while she's commiting genocide (It mantains it's victorious for her) or always use eerie music when she does morally dubious shit (so we're always wary of her brutal streak). It's not that hard. Mostly the problem I think is that they didn't know where the story was going to make consistent/cohesive choices.

For me it's the nonsense the "fans" of the show keep saying that she was supposed to go mad. Hence the coin flip, they mention way too many times for my liking. What bothers me about that "coin toss" is that we look at what Jon did with the Night's Watch in Thorne, and Olly. Then we look at Robb with Karstark. Jon with Ramsey. Stannis and what he allowed to have happen to Shireen. Even Ned in the very first episode with the defector from the Wall. Then we have Tyrion murdering his own father and Shae. Then Cersei and her blowing up The Sept, having Ser Gregor and the torture of Septa Unella. All of them did what they did and were congratulated for it. Dany burns the Tarleys and suddenly that's the lynch pin of the argument she's going to go buggo. Same with the slavers at Mereen. Just because everyone kept saying it in the show, the "coin toss," suddenly everyone is repeating it like a parrot and actually believing that turn is going to happen. When others in the show did almost the same things, but they're not buggo. One could argue what Jon did to Thorne and Olly is that coin tossing. He looked pretty mad doing that. He could have shown mercy, but he hung them. No different than Daenerys and the Tarleys. But nope. She's "Mad Queen. That coin tossed, and she's mad." I don't understand the hatred against Dany for doing exactly the same thing all the other MALE leaders did in the show. Heck, people even think Cersei is sympathetic but offer none to Dany.

Danny is one of my favourite characters, because she can adapt so well. She always learns from her experiences and grows with them. Of course the book Danny is way better and fuller character and of course partly that is due to us (the reader) being in her head. Now, the moment when she looked them in the safe was very troubling for me, no matter the way they frame it, but that may not be everyone. They could have use that scene better, to start the groundwork for her cruel side, but you are right - they missed it. Still for me that was unnecessary cruel act and the book solves it better, I think, by her simply leaving the city. At that point I feel this is more what she would do, rather than the revenge thing. The Mirri Maz Dur burning is different, there she is probably doing it a bit to get even, but her main purpose is to fulfill her dream, she know at that moment that the dragons will be born if she sacrifices someone and she simply chooses the most convenient person. That is more rational decision than a heat of the moment revenge thing.

“The only lives that truly matter are those who respect the lives of others”.

I really liked Danny when I started reading the books, but by a storm of swords i started having concerns about her. After a dance with Dragons i considered her more of a antagonist if not an outright villain. Most of her story arc is her conquering cities, brutally murdering any who oppose her, then leaving the city in shambles. I kinda get why people were pissed about how she ended up in the show, but it was kinda par for the course with her. The writers just did a bad job of handling it.

I’m glad others notice that the writers of the show did start laying the groundwork for mad Dany. But they also definitely dropped the ball. They didn’t balance it out properly and by the time they ran out of source material they were stuck. They had this path for her already outlined and they butchered the end of it. If they had made the 8th season longer or added a couple extra seasons, they probably could’ve redirect the thought process and story to be more organic.

I pretty much agree with everything you said! 🙂 In general the show was too adamant on painting fan favorites as "good" characters instead of gray. You mentioned Jorah. They also did the same thing with Tyrion who in the books becomes a much darker character after he flees Kingslanding (and actually already before that), while in the show he is a fan favorite nice guy. With Dany that bites them in the ass in the end when they suddenly have to switch her to the dark side (like "let's do the right thing!"-Anakin suddenly becomes "kill all the younglings!"-Darth Vader within 5 minutes screen time). ^^

My problem with labeling Dany as crazy because of the bad things she did do is because she didnt do anything anyone else, besides Ned, wouldve done in a position of power, having lived the life she lived. And some do similar...for no reason other than to appease the red god *cough*stannis*cough...

So in the books we have the “young Griff” character. Aegon Targaryen or “Faegon” to a lot of book readers. The absence of this character was a huge oversight by the show runners in going from where they had Dany. To where they wanted her to go. Having Faegon show up in Westeros first and getting houses and bannerman to his cause before her. Would have helped with the framing of Dany being the villain. I also think Tyrion was meant to be a more corrupting influence on Dany. Help to play up the fire and blood side of her personality. He is in a very dark place in book 5. The show decided after season 4 that Tyrion needed to be a good guy, the audience avatar. Which was a mistake.

Tbh I’m not much of a fan of the Dany arc in the books either, but I do find the book version far more endearing than the show. This is not because she isn’t well written but because her story is such a drag. I found Aegon and Jon Connington and (spoiler alert) the Martell’s to be better pro-Targaryen counterparts.

An added complexity of Dany giving the Second Sons wine outside of Yunkai is that it happens at around the same time as the Red Wedding, where the Freys get Robb Stark's army outside the castle super drunk to more easily slaughter them. So there's the PoV trap here: is this a fun clever strategy when Dany gets her enemies drunk and attacks during a truce, but its reprehensible when the Freys do more or less the same thing to the Starks? You get sucked into each PoV's perspective, but then you're forced to take a step back when the shoe is on the other foot for a different protagonist. Not sure is the show was always very good at capturing and paralleling these little things...

23:29 Which is ironic, considering the difference in ages between the show and books.

I think you captured the feel of what is wrong with Daenerys in the show, especially in the Agency section. I would also add that the Breaking Of The Wheel paradox didn't make her storyline any favors, other than forcefully combine her two sides of her character, creating further confusion. I mean, in the books Daenerys can distinguish the two sides of her character, and ultimately in the end she consciously chooses Fire and Blood. In the show she doesn't know what she is ( heck she needs Dario to tell her she is a Conqueror), trying to romantice her invasion as savior's mission...

👉👉👉She is not the mad queen

Thank the gods for this series. And 'er relaxing intro sequence!

Thank you so much for this video! I had always had an inkling that the Meereense arc was more important than I was seeing, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. THIS. This is what the important part is.

Of all the terrible decisions that were made in season 8 the treatment of Dany actually bothered me the least honestly but that’s probably mostly due to the fact I never really saw her as some empowering figure and pretty much always knew we were gonna end up with some kind of mad queen arc. When Arya killed the Night King is when the show well and truly died for me. There was no coming back from that.

I actually completely disconnected to dany in the novel when she burned murri alive.

i don’t think mirri or dany are to blame for what happened in the end of the first book. mirri was right to get revenge against drogo but she was wrong for killing dany’s baby that obviously did not deserve to be punished for his father’s crimes. and dany was not wrong for punishing mirri, because, as i said before, she did murder dany’s unborn child. you can see both their perspectives and take both sides. it’s not right to villanize the child bride who just had her innocent baby murdered or the woman who had her life completely destroyed by savages.

I forgot to mention about breaking the wheel... Use the code TREE for 40% off World Anvil with the link worldanvil.com/?c=mltt Or else try it out for free!!

I think the writers weren't quite sure where to go, and then had to rush to get to the end point. It's quite common when the source material runs out. I think trying to make her a symbol isn't as helpful as trying to write her as her character. Honestly, I'm kind of on Miri Maz Duur's side - the Dothraki are murdering, raping, pillaging bastards. Doreah may have betrayed her, but yes, I always thought that was particularly bleak.

Even in the show I was firmly on Mirri's side. Even if she deliberately made Drogo half-alive in that coma like state, she had every right to do that. Dany crucifies some slave masters who treated their slaves cruelly later on. Guess what, Drogo was a slaver who led the attack on Mirri's village. But it's all fine when Dany does far worse brutality to those masters but when Mirri does comparatively more restrained retribution, burn her alive? I despised what Dany did

I thought it started with her brother's death. They left out her desperately trying to get him to leave the tent, telling Jorah to give him the dragon eggs, any indication of the "horrified despair" she felt when he drew a blade knowing it doomed him, or her reaction to his death, which was numb, not cold as in the show. She was also stated to have not smiled for weeks afterwards. She tried to save him and didn't want him dead, yet you don't get any of that in that particular episode of the show.

Locking those two in the vault didn't bother me, not because of how much I like her character, but because they kidnapped her children. It's cruel, but justified.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, there are a couple of points where I have some quibbles. 1) Mirri's price: Even in the book, it is very clear that Mirri always intended to sacrifice Dany's child. You even brought up the line "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price." This is clear-cut proof imo that Mirri was enacting her own agenda. I don't think this justifies burning her alive. But it does make it so that Dany's feeling of betrayal is completely justified. 2) Untangling the Meerenese Knot: These essays make too many assumptions to be considered credible imo. It is obvious that the writers have bias in their analysis. One prime example is them bringing up that Dany forgot the name of the burnt child "Hazzea" and claiming that this is somehow proof that Dany is wavering in her resolve to protect innocents. I'm sorry what? That is a ridiculous leap of logic. And in any case, Dany still remembers "Eroeh" who she failed to protect in aGoT. Another prime example is the interpretation that Dany is struggling between two personas; "Mother of Dragons" and "Mhysa". To choose one is to abandon the other, according to the essay. This is false. These two personas are one and the same as exemplified by aSoS where Dany successfully embodied both at the same time and managed to upend the entire slave economy of Planetos.

Something Martin does in the books is frame justice and revenge in relation to each other. Take the Martels: most of them openly say they want "revenge" against the Lannisters. But there is a single exception: Oberyn Martel. Never once does he say he wants "revenge", only ever "justice", and he has a LOT of time to talk about wanting one or the other. Tywin Lannister believes that revenge itself IS justice, and thus excuses himself for so many moral failures. This is the key to understanding the difference between how Dany is portrayed in the books vs the show. Book Dany wants justice; a sometimes harsh and bloody justice, but she still sees it as justice, thus doing the "right thing" in all her judgments. In the show, this element is lost, or at best replaced with Tywin's understanding that revenge itself is justice.

7:09 yeah, I‘m not sure if I agree with your interpretation of the books at all. Dany is playing the Game of Thrones. She‘s learned her lessons. This isn‘t a moral conundrum at all, none of these are moral conundrums. WE the audience can judge Dany (or Tywin Lannister, or Stannis) if we want to, but for the story, the ethical implications are not a category, except insofar as the characters themselves raise them, which is of course totally subjective. Later on Dany will struggle with her decisions, feel bad about some of them (but not others). The same goes for other characters. But for the story itself all that is all water under the bridge. There is absolutely zero degree to which the story tells us „you should feel bad about Mirri or Xarro“ or that their treatment tells us anything fundamental about Dany‘s arc. That‘s not how it works. She‘s not gonna suffer any consequences and it doesn‘t make her a worse or better Queen. Just like Tywin never suffers any personal consequences for the Castameres and murdering Rhaegar‘s children. He suffers consequences for the Tysha affair, but literally only by coincidence because he turned Tyrion against himself and Tyrion got out. It‘s entirely subjective. Morality is subjective here and not foundational. People don‘t get what‘s coming to them. Some deaths are avenged, only because there happens to be someone in a position to do it, but there‘s no fundamental morality that the characters are judged by or that will carry any consequence whatsoever.

The part where she freed the unsullied army and into her cause was pretty cunning if you ask me

I only have to say that, except for pleasing the algorithm, please don't worry about a show or movie being "relevant" if you have something worthwhile to say about it (hell, the Breakfast Club isn't a hot topic, but those videos are great). To the contrary, I find that older media incites less emotional fervor, so it's easier to discuss and be analytical about.

That old lady told her to be a dragon and guess what she became a dragon!!! NOT THE MAD QUEEN 🤦🏿‍♂️🎥🍿

Right, I remember hearing from someone at one point the first relatively direct clue we got of her questionable character was when she ordered the children under 12 be spared... she didn't see herself as a child and didn't see the children her age as children either and ordered their deaths. It's not like the unsullied were going to ask the age of a child looking between 11 and 13 how old they were before killing them. Definitely needed better planning on the series creators' parts in slowly building up to her demise... if that was indeed the case from the beginning. I think this was one of those cases where the female lead's desirability took precedence over character and plot building. As a result they failed to A.) Make her as believable and compelling as she could have been and B.) Properly lead up to her meltdown.

I think a big issue with Dany's storyline is the show seemingly being scared of the whole myth and prophecy part of asoiaf as well. The house of the undying was gutted, she didn't have dragon dreams, the azor ahai stuff gets brought up and then doesn't become relevant again. It is a fantasy show deeply uncomfortable with being one it feels like.

I personally think the mad queen ending wasn't a million miles away from being well done. The whole show until s7 she is surrounded by people who wouldn't bat an eye at the atrocities she commits. The dothraki go around pillaging and slaving all the time. Her killing the Witch lady isn't exactly that brutal in the eyes of the dothraki, they're used to it. Jorah himself is hated by honorable people such as Ned Stark for his slaving ways. Jorah is objectively a bad person who is also in love with Dany, he wouldn't see a problem with anything she does. Grey worm and Missandei are freed from slavery by her and are almost definitely treated better by her than by their former masters. When tyrion and varys arrive, they are both full of hope in dany being the saviour of westeros and only really witness the slaughter of terrorist groups and slavers. It's only when the things she's been doing her whole life continue in westeros that people like varys and tyrion speak out against it. She was always this way.

It would have been perfect if there was a scene where Dany was forced to confront her dubious acts and she denies ever doing wrong. Then she becomes overconfident and attacks kings landing out of fear of being a bad person.

In the books after killing his father Tyrion is feeling pretty wretched. There's a dark side to him not shown on the TV version and in the books following his trial he is on the warpath. He fully intends to return to King's Landing and kill them all. Dany can be a bit "Targaryeny" at times but for the most part listens to the better angels of her nature. I think Tyrion is going to be the devil on her shoulder. He's going to use Dany as his weapon of vengeance and he'll do it by encouraging Dany to "be a dragon" more and more. So yes a "Mad Queen" arc is on the cards for Dany it just has to be done better than what we got in the show.

I began to despise Dany when she tried to con Drogo into conquering Westeros. He is a big fish in a little pond and he'd be a fish out of water in that culture. The Dothraki are slavers, thieves, and rapists. The horse lord has no future in a land where slavery is outlawed. I was astonished when she banished Jorah and had to backtrack over the episodes. I could not see what made her so enraged at him. Were it not for Jorah, Dany would be dead a few times over. If she had taken his advice, her husband and her child might still be alive. If anything, their blood was entirely on her hands. Dany undermined her husband's authority when she confiscated all the captured women from Drogo's men. Drogo took a fatal wound as a direct consequence of her willful stupidity. Jorah had warned her against such interference. When a new queen wants to change her new culture, she effects change gradually, offering acceptable alternatives, not by usurping the privileges his followers have hitherto enjoyed. Jorah did not betray her, for he owed her no loyalty until he pledged to her at Drogo's bier. Jorah had his own fish to fry, to return to Westeros. Dany was nothing to him until he began to fall in love with her. That is why he saved her from the wine merchant's poison. He already had King Robert's pardon in his hand and yet continued to save Dany's bacon. Meanwhile, I kept hoping he give it up and jump ship for Westeros,

This makes it all the more crazy that they wasted Barristan's character.

The infamous D & D had SUCH good groundwork to build on for Dany's character, and it's so unfair that we get such a lazy heel-turn where she goes from a compassionate yet fierce leader to a raving city eater in the space of four episodes. Imagine if they'd found a way to show her descent without deligitimising all her good, noble and kind actions. Say, for example, the "Targeryn madness" was akin to Dementia in real life. It was unavoidable, it stripped them of their personhood bit by bit, until they were left as a shadow of their former selves. Then, say Dany KNEW about it. For example, she starts to notice the early symptoms in, say, season 4. She begins to forget important events or tasks. She snaps at the people closest to her, only to apologise moments later, shocked at her own behaviour. At first she attributes it to the stress of ruling, but the nagging fear sits with her, knowing that her father's downfall began with reports of similar behaviour. By season 5, things are getting worse. Shes still in control at this point, but she confides her fears in Jon. She asks him to end her humanely if it ever gets to the point where she is a danger to the people she's sworn to protect. He refuses, but she pleads with him, and he agrees. Then, finally, the final battle at King's landing occurs. It can play out in much the same way as it does in the show, but we now have some context for why this is the moment she snaps. After all, she has suffered losses, betrayals, and terrible treatment in the past, and survived them. But this time is different because she has been battling against the onset of the "madness" for so long that we all knew she would eventually lose the battle. It isn't a choice, it's an inevitability. The trauma has only sped things along a bit (as with real life Dementia). Jon then has to approach her, remembering his promise to her. He pleads with her to return to him. Maybe she even does, for just a few moments. The mad smile disappears for a few seconds and her eyes fill with horrified tears. She says, "Jon... it's time... you promised me." And finally, Jon grants her wish. Afterwords, Jon is able to speak to the heartbroken Dothraki, and he honours Dany. He talks about her sacrifice and her bravery, even when facing her final moments. How she truly loved her people. He encourages them to remember her good deeds, her compassion and her love for them, and to not allow the horrors of the past few days/weeks be the only thing she is remembered for. Now is this a perfect story? No. But is it better? Heck yes. It's more true to who Dany is, it adds the foreshadowing necessary, and it gives Dany autonomy in her own end. Dany is a victim of SA and worse, and to have her put down like Ol' Yeller in the end (quote by Lindsay Ellis) is horribly disrespectful, another way she was robbed of her autonomy. My version at least gives her a say in her fate, she would rather go out with a shred of herself in tact, than to live with no control of her own mind. Of course we'd have to be VERY careful about the implications that mental illness = villainy, but the version we get in the show has absolutely NO qualms about showing mad Dany as an evil supervillain because of her madness. At least my version acknowledges that if given the choice, Dany will still choose to do the right thing.

I assume Dany goes to Vaes Dothrak in the show because that's where she'll go in the book. Which is a major problem with the later seasons where D&D feel a need to hit certain story beats from the future books without considering whether it still worked in the diverged narrative of the show, so they just sort of clumsily shoehorn it in. King Bran has got to be the most obvious example.

I agree with your points and overall they didn’t do Dany justice. However, given the trajectory she was already on, it bothered me that when Cercei killed Missandei- that’s when Dany should have reacted. Not at the very end. Not sure it would have made the ending a whole lot better, and it certainly wouldn’t have fixed her arc. But that would have been a more believable reaction at least.

i think it would have been interesting if they had written it so that Daenerys' court continues to slowly becomes the rejects of the world, people like Tyrion or Jorah or anyone who came with her from essos, where they really can't leave her because in her service they've pissed off basically everyone and leaving her would likely end in them being killed. from that base they could have written it where they are noticing Daenerys actions gradually becoming more careless of human deaths/cruel/blunt but they really can't do anything about it but they really can't do anything about it. at least from that point you could have some explanation for it and have it be a gradual enabling process where even if there is pushback to her decisions in the form of argument the argument still always ends in them letting her do what she's gonna do regardless of the human cost.

I would have bought it if Dani lost it and went after Cerci and her pals not caring who got in the way but going out of her way to kill random King's Landing inhabitants really wasn't believable.

Great video. D & D ruined a ton of characters in the show. I cant wait for Winds to be released.

Would love to see how different Dani’s arc would have been if she hadn’t been beautiful. I think a LOT of her “successes” are solely based on her beauty. In the show. Also why the f was she just so ready to listen to Tyrion 😂 when again and again he was shown to be a dumbASS. Poor Tyrion they did our boy dirty. And Jamie. The mad queen bells scene isn’t nearly as detrimental to character development as “I never really cared for them, innocent or otherwise” line. Ouch. Also she seemed so much more sad about her girlfriend dying than her dragons aka her “children.” Lol why!

Great points... i didn't even think about some of the things you pointed out. Good job 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

one note Jorah is just bad he sold slaves just to keep his lifestyle,no amount of doing that for love will make that ok

I haven’t finished the video yet, but I already have thoughts lol. There are a lot of minor changes that I feel contribute to Show Daenerys’ odd characterization. The biggest change is cutting the big house with the red door which outlines Dany’s entire motivation for her actions instead of her just being entitled because she’s a Targaryen. The way she’s written in the books isn’t perfect, but for one she’s portrayed as a lot more politically savvy and strategic in the books and is more passive in the show (and oddly feels more bratty in Season 2 despite being aged up in the show). When she meets with the envoy from Yunkai and the leaders of the sellsword companies, she sets terms for each of them, offering some large amounts of wine and giving them a few days to agree, and when they’re gone she calls her advisors to her tent and tells them they should attack after nightfall. They’re all confused, and she tells them they’re going to sneak attack in the dark while the sellswords are drunk and lays out ways that they can attack. She’s more of a general in many ways, especially in Book 3 before she takes Meereen and has to learn to compromise. She’s learning to count the numbers of an enemy camp and is eager for her dragons to grow so she can lead her own troops to battle. Even in Astapor when she’s given the whip to signify her ownership of the Unsullied, she actually whips the slave master across the face herself. In the show it’s more her advisors and followers who do a lot of the planning and work unless her dragons are needed. Book Daenerys is suspicious of Illyrio being so generous to them and of the Qartheen being very welcoming. She doesn’t claim she was betrayed by Xaro. She knew he wasn’t her friend from the beginning. She’s very naive and optimistic in many ways but she starts the story at 13 years old. Sansa is only two years younger than her and she’s incredibly childish. TLDR they changed her a lot and didn’t have much reason to which screwed up her character in the show.

I think the problem with Dany being one dimensional is that other characters coming in contact with her becomes one dimensional as well. In the first few seasons she was on her own arch. When her arch met with other characters that were more complex it didn't mix well.

Finally, I feel like I’m the only one that realised she was crazy after the first women was burnt. She was always crazy. Feel like no1 else sees it sometimes

appreciate how you approach every story and character with the respect, nuance and consciousness that it deserves

Bit surprised you didn’t mention biggest change: Danny being fireproof all the time. GRRM said the funeral pile was only survived because of burning a witch. She’s not an X-Men, in the books.

Ser Jorah...are we the baddies?

I think again it is a symptom of adapting a large complex work which is incomplete. Daenerys appearance in the books is concentrated in areas as is all the other characters, and as more is added the appearances in the book are fewer. This is the same with most characters, Sansa, Bran are good examples and ultimately leading to character being split between 2 books. From a TV perspective they have to have these characters actors doing things so its almost like having filler or shuffling the story of combining another character which leads to them being in the wrong place at the wrong time and with the wrong psychology. This is exacerbated by not knowing the characters/ stories end point and how they mesh together with others. Personally I feel the religious/ supernatural elements were played down, It was starting to feel that the underlying forces were moving the characters and that crossing to westeros should have involved more of this. Burning Kings landing felt a bit like rinse and repeat, and then there is the question of Prince Aegon and how Martian intends to play his character. I think an interesting video would be the wild cards and underplayed characters which are in the books and how they impact things, Jojen Reed has more book time and Prince Aegon, plus there is the whole greyjoy bit

Danny was playing the Game Of Thrones like any other player. Jon killed a child, Arya killed a child in s1, Sansa fed Ramsay to his dogs. So, why is Danny suddenly mad? Marri cost her child and taunted her. Her brother abused her and wh*red her off to fit his own ends

I particularly believe that the framing of what she is doing is extremely intentional on how easily you root for the villian

The main problem with show!Dany is that she can't act to save her life. Also everything from S5 onwards.

Personally I think it could have been a better character devolpment for her to realize she isn't azor ahai or the prince who was promised and that she isn't the one who should sit on the iron throne and rule. The whole burning of KL can still happend but she instead of ruling a "foreign" land she decides to take some loot, reparations and trade agreements and go back to slavers bay. It could lead into a open ending where if GRRM or D&D decide on a sequels to be made that they could make Daenerys a folk legend told across essos and westeros. In the east shes known as goddes figure who conquered large swaths of land and freed the slaves and then went on to raise the westerosi lands with dragons and dothrakis who always look down upon their people. While in the west she is a mix of a force of evil and good. In the North they will remember the long night and the sacrifices she made while other regions like KL shes known as the mad king reborn. Legends and tales aside her returning to slavers bay would help to world build that region. She could conquer cities like volantis, new ghis and qarth and unite the many cultures who dispise eachother. A mix of all cultures in ASOIF, from westerosi feudel system to dothraki horde society. I can only speculate but I am sure that danny to realise what shes done and whats she supposed to do would have been better. For her to give up the dreams since she was a little girl to serve her duty as the mother of Dragons, the unburnt, breaker of chains and so forth.

Im not sure if youve covered this movie before, but if not im intrested in your thoughts on The Dead Poets Society, specifically neil, charlie and cameron. I think theyre all such intresting characters that have so many layers to disect.

In my belief, throughout the entire show you get hints that Dany isn't all there in the head. So her destruction of Kings Landing shouldn't come as a great surprise.

I agree with you on many of your points here. I don't think very many people but to say the digns weren't there about Daenarys is untrue

I'm glad you brought this up. More needed to be said about both Mary and Daenerys in this situation. Daenerys is very very young at this event. She's pregnant and she thinks the Horses life/sacrifice will keep her husband alive. It's not irrational, but Mary didn't say anything specific about which life and which death were being equated. We excuse Daenerys for burning Mary because she felt manipulated and lied to, and holding back that piece of information from Daenerys, is a manipulation which causes us (fans/viewers) and Daenerys to suspect her intentions to begin with.

With Dany killing the Tarlys, I think the root problem there specifically is the loss of the medieval morality. Ned killing the Night's Watch deserter, Jon killing Ollie - these terrible things are justified in-world because this is a very brutal world and these things are normalized in-universe. Robb Stark, Renly, and Stannis Baratheon don't shape their entire war plans around reducing civilian casualties. But all of a sudden, in the last few seasons, the characters seem to forget they're living in a brutal medieval world. Tyrion becomes a mouthpiece for modern sensibilities when discussing killing the Tarlys. Desertion from the Night's Watch is no big deal. Dany humanely starves a city into submission instead of capturing the castle with her dragon, and offering pardons to people who abandon Cersei for her? Control of strategic castles stops mattering (Euron has to sail right past Dragonstone to talk to Cersei at the start of season 7... like he goes out of his way to not take the castle, so Dany can take it bloodlessly. During season 8, no one has a clue who controls Storm's End.) The barriers that women face in this world suddenly don't exist, so Sansa and Cersei face no struggle on that front, with people eagerly throwing power at them, when women in the same situations as them a few seasons earlier were pressured to marry and cede power to their husbands, or were shunned in favor of the men around them, purely because they were women. (I would've liked to see Sansa actively topple the patriarchy, for the men who opposed her for being a woman to face suitably karmic downfalls, not just... suddenly adopt modern sensibilities on the issue.) their

i liked mirri, when dany killed her that was basically the end of me liking dany. dany is imo one of the worst GOT characters, i like book dany more from that excerpt than i did in the whole show. she’s just so bratty, entitled, and brutal in the show like joffrey but the way she’s framed as a good guy in the show makes her that much more annoying, i feel like i’m in crazy land when people talk about liking her

I always found Dany after Drogo’s death slightly merciless but the show really didn’t do a smooth transition into her villain story 😅

I think the best way to help show that shes a traumatised human would have been to have a scene where she talks about when she left kings landing as a kid. if they had it so she remembers exactly what happened and the brutality of how her family was slain, even if it didnt actually happen in the books, it would have brought you right back to the point where she is an extremely dysfunctional person who experienced extreme trauma in her childhood before becoming the victim of family abuse at the hands of her brother, then drogo. Shes got a domino affect her whole life of abuse and when she was pregnant she was given respect and power. i thought that was an intersting aspect as well, they never really credited her for her growing confidence, it was "the baby inside her". For most of her life, she was abused. People who grow up in those kinds of environments tend to seek out those kinds of relationships or act in similar ways as their abusers because its all they know. We didnt get to see any of this in Dani.

another thought tree classic

I had an older male friend who used to tell me i reminded him of Dany. In the episode where she burned kings landing he called and asked "would you have done that?" I told him no. I said i probably would have attacked the keep, I'll hold a grudge into the next life and cercie killed Dany's best friend and dragon, but there was no point in burning the city. It didn't hurt cercie, she didn't care about those people and Dany knew that. Plus it made every death for nothing. She could have burnt the city from the get go. I know she's supposed to be the "mad queen", but I'm not exactly stable lol. I have C-PTSD, Bipolar 1, and ADHD.

I always thought Dany was a great conquered but poor at ruling. I’d have liked to see that explored more. Like if she HAS to wind up with John, maybe he tempers her to help her be a good leader in terms of day to day.